EPTalso
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iirc the first message you get in the game tells you that you can look up all the tutorial messages by pressing "J"
The Witcher 2 - Page 44
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FliedLice
Germany7494 Posts
also iirc the first message you get in the game tells you that you can look up all the tutorial messages by pressing "J" | ||
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Bibdy
United States3481 Posts
On May 25 2011 01:40 FliedLice wrote: I didn't use it very often but i was totally fine with the combat system once i got the hang of it, didn't really need it anyway. also iirc the first message you get in the game tells you that you can look up all the tutorial messages by pressing "J" Yes, I know what it is, I know what it does. Pointing that out doesn't help me, and it doesn't help anyone else in this thread who's already been playing the game. We're talking about our past selves, and others, who just jumped into the game. Want to know how I found out what vigor was, since there was no tutorial pop-up explaining it (which would have appeared/disappeared so quickly I wouldn't have had a chance to read it, anyhow)? I just cast a few spells in that first camp and noticed the yellow boxes disappearing. That's not intuitiveness. Heck, you even have to STUMBLE, every step of the way, onto the fact that the Journal, opened by J, has a tab that contains all of the game's tutorial information that's been popping up and disappearing while you were invariably in the middle of something else. | ||
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Serpico
4285 Posts
On May 25 2011 01:44 Bibdy wrote: Yes, I know what it is, I know what it does. Pointing that out doesn't help me, and it doesn't help anyone else in this thread who's already been playing the game. We're talking about our past selves, and others, who just jumped into the game. Want to know how I found out what vigor was, since there was no tutorial pop-up explaining it (which would have appeared/disappeared so quickly I wouldn't have had a chance to read it, anyhow)? I just cast a few spells in that first camp and noticed the yellow boxes disappearing. That's not intuitiveness. sure it is, you figured it out. | ||
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Bibdy
United States3481 Posts
I figured it out the hard way. Why does EVERY little detail of this game have to be figured out the hard way? It doesn't. They did a bad job. End of. | ||
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Hargol
United States52 Posts
On May 25 2011 01:49 Bibdy wrote: I figured it out the hard way. Why does EVERY little detail of this game have to be figured out the hard way? It doesn't. They did a bad job. End of. Or you could have read the manual? It explains all the mechanics. You can't blame a map you didn't use for not giving you good directions. | ||
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Bibdy
United States3481 Posts
On May 25 2011 01:57 Hargol wrote: Or you could have read the manual? It explains all the mechanics. You can't blame a map you didn't use for not giving you good directions. Plenty of other games, including RPGs, ease you into them just fine without the need for the manual. Why couldn't Witcher 2? Other modern games have set that precedent. So what's CD Projekt's problem? Are they just trying to be edgy, cool and hip by telling you to RTFM before you can play the game? | ||
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hugman
Sweden4644 Posts
On May 25 2011 01:57 Hargol wrote: Or you could have read the manual? It explains all the mechanics. You can't blame a map you didn't use for not giving you good directions. Expectations change with time. It was okay to not have a tutorial in the 90's, but back then it was okay to have Resident Evil controls too. Today, not so much. For me it wasn't a huge issue, but there are a lot of people complaining about it and I don't think they're wrong. The game would be better for many people if it had a proper tutorial. | ||
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Hargol
United States52 Posts
Just because it's not your preference or you think it's lazy doesn't mean it's bad, sorry. | ||
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Bibdy
United States3481 Posts
On May 25 2011 02:04 Hargol wrote: Well, my guess is it's a lot cheaper and quicker to write it down into a little manual you're going to include anyway than to spend time and resources adding it into the game that could be better spent elsewhere. Just because it's not your preference or you think it's lazy doesn't mean it's bad, sorry. It is bad, sorry. Its one of the more modern tenets of game design. Omit it and you've done some bad game design, because its going to make people stop playing the game when they don't understand what you're throwing them into. If they intentionally skipped the tutorial/unchecked the tutorial option, you can't do anything about that. But, if they didn't, you should make damned sure that people understand the battle you're about to throw them into. Otherwise you just piss people off, earn detractors, and screw up your own sales. Even if the last 99% of the game is awesome, if that first 1% pisses them off, a lot of people won't play it. The ultimate goal is to make people happy with their purchase. If they 'accidentally' piss them off through lazily half-assing a tutorial section, they only have themselves to blame. | ||
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MaxwellE
England229 Posts
This is something Valve excels at, they can gather a huge amount of stats via steam and achievements which tells them exactly where people get stuck or stop playing. Then again Portal 2 was a bit too easy. This is something Blizzard handled relatively well with SC2 as well, by including the challenges. Sure, if you want to know how to beat proxy 2gate you can go on the internet, sign up on Teamliquid and ask people how it is done. Or you can just try and complete the challenge. | ||
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splinter9
Canada172 Posts
On May 25 2011 01:44 Bibdy wrote: Yes, I know what it is, I know what it does. Pointing that out doesn't help me, and it doesn't help anyone else in this thread who's already been playing the game. We're talking about our past selves, and others, who just jumped into the game. Want to know how I found out what vigor was, since there was no tutorial pop-up explaining it (which would have appeared/disappeared so quickly I wouldn't have had a chance to read it, anyhow)? I just cast a few spells in that first camp and noticed the yellow boxes disappearing. That's not intuitiveness. Heck, you even have to STUMBLE, every step of the way, onto the fact that the Journal, opened by J, has a tab that contains all of the game's tutorial information that's been popping up and disappearing while you were invariably in the middle of something else. So basically what your saying is you want someone to hold your hand in everything little thing you do. God forbid you had to figure out something on your own and use your brain. You obviously did not grow up in the 8bit days when games barley came with any instructions what so ever . | ||
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hoob
Sweden69 Posts
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Bibdy
United States3481 Posts
On May 25 2011 02:15 splinter9 wrote: So basically what your saying is you want someone to hold your hand in everything little thing you do. God forbid you had to figure out something on your own and use your brain. You obviously did not grow up in the 8bit days when games barley came with any instructions what so ever . Actually, I did. What's your excuse, now? Stop trying to defend some obviously bad game design. There is NO EXCUSE for having a bad tutorial. Games of the 80s and 90s were just as terrible for that exact same reason, but we pushed through it because we were kids, didn't have a whole lot of games within reach, and therefore had a high tolerance for things that would piss us off in a game; we died a lot, but it's not like we could go play something else instead. Something that kids today haven't quite figured out, yet (which is ironic, since they know everything); the hardcore gamers of the 70s, 80s and 90s are the casual-gamers of today. We grew up. We've got responsibilities now, and we're the ones with the money. Is it too much to ask for a little more effort put in to provide a straight-forward tutorial? Apparently for CD Projekt, the answer is yes. | ||
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EvasivE
United States70 Posts
-want more moves? i had bombs for that fight that you equip in your pockets and hit "r" to throw -hitting the wrong person? in groups of guy you should be locking on single target -the kid uses only the yyarden or w/e spell and didnt try other shit. complaining and trying to force 1 strategy down their fucking throat is the epitome of a bad player in starcraft. if he's asshurt over people calling him bad then he shouldn't stream live play, or he shouldn't call everything about the game terrible because he had "gasp" a challenge at a point in the game! | ||
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hugman
Sweden4644 Posts
On May 25 2011 02:15 splinter9 wrote: So basically what your saying is you want someone to hold your hand in everything little thing you do. God forbid you had to figure out something on your own and use your brain. You obviously did not grow up in the 8bit days when games barley came with any instructions what so ever . "NES games were hard" What a great defence of TW2's lack of proper tutorial lol. It's not that people can't figure it out, it's about expectations established by other games. TW2 is not perfect so get over it. This is one of its most obvious flaws. | ||
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Fishball
Canada4788 Posts
On May 25 2011 02:15 splinter9 wrote: So basically what your saying is you want someone to hold your hand in everything little thing you do. God forbid you had to figure out something on your own and use your brain. You obviously did not grow up in the 8bit days when games barley came with any instructions what so ever . You're taking his words out of context. I got through the game just fine and figured out most of the stuff on my own and some Googling, but that does not mean their "tutorial system" was alright, which IMO is not. All what Bibdy is saying is that the lack of a decent tutorial is a flaw in the game and could have been better, which I agree. | ||
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Casta
Denmark234 Posts
On May 25 2011 02:08 Bibdy wrote: It is bad, sorry. Its one of the more modern tenets of game design. Omit it and you've done some bad game design, because its going to make people stop playing the game when they don't understand what you're throwing them into. If they intentionally skipped the tutorial/unchecked the tutorial option, you can't do anything about that. But, if they didn't, you should make damned sure that people understand the battle you're about to throw them into. Otherwise you just piss people off, earn detractors, and screw up your own sales. Even if the last 99% of the game is awesome, if that first 1% pisses them off, a lot of people won't play it. The ultimate goal is to make people happy with their purchase. If they 'accidentally' piss them off through lazily half-assing a tutorial section, they only have themselves to blame. You sound so angry, was it really so bad to figure out? I like games that challenge me and I scorn games that holds your hand every step of the way without any kind of difficulty, makes me feel like it is pointless to play. I am not saying that the witcher 2 is perfect, but it is a refreshing sight among all the other streamlined and consolized games being spit out on the market. | ||
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hoob
Sweden69 Posts
On May 25 2011 02:22 hugman wrote: "NES games were hard" What a great defence of TW2's lack of proper tutorial lol. It's not that people can't figure it out, it's about expectations established by other games. TW2 is not perfect so get over it. This is one of its most obvious flaws. He's not saying that as a defense for witcher 2, he is just pointing out that older gamers like to think and challenge themselves in a game while never gamers want to have a helping hand and beat games while pressing one button. Witcher 2 is a game for the older generation and its really refreshing to see someone that dares make a game that isn't in the new school of thought and actually provides some challenges. | ||
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naim
41 Posts
On May 25 2011 02:08 Bibdy wrote: It is bad, sorry. Its one of the more modern tenets of game design. Omit it and you've done some bad game design, because its going to make people stop playing the game when they don't understand what you're throwing them into. If they intentionally skipped the tutorial/unchecked the tutorial option, you can't do anything about that. But, if they didn't, you should make damned sure that people understand the battle you're about to throw them into. Otherwise you just piss people off, earn detractors, and screw up your own sales. Even if the last 99% of the game is awesome, if that first 1% pisses them off, a lot of people won't play it. The ultimate goal is to make people happy with their purchase. If they 'accidentally' piss them off through lazily half-assing a tutorial section, they only have themselves to blame. And another "modern tenet of game design" apparently is: Guide the player on rails through the entire game, just dont allow him to fail. Make him finish it quickly so we can sell him another DLC/sequel and he has to waste his time on one of our other supreme game creations. Need moar money! If you are not able to read tips, look through manuals and experiment within the prologue in your first in-game hour, you are not worth the other ~30 hours of entertainment. | ||
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Mithrandror
Belgium85 Posts
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