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United States4471 Posts
On January 15 2011 07:40 Holcan wrote:
It doesnt matter if Bynum has a better overall skill set (in your opinion), Noah is just a better player. Noah is the type of player that everyone wants on their team, he brings the hardworking dynamic without ever asking for anything in return. Not only that, but he thoroughly enjoys his position as a hard worker, which is dreadfully uncommon in this league. He can guard smaller defenders quite well as well as holding his own against premier centers. He is good at Man to Man D, as well as help D. He has shown to be steadily increasing his skill since he entered the NBA, and was a winner in the NCAA.
From a stats perspective, Noah gets steals, something Bynum doesnt do very often. Noah is also better at offensive rebounding, while being more consistent at defensive rebounding. Joakim also gives you 14 points, without you ever drawing up a single play for him, where as Bynum requires Kobe and Pau to facilitate for him, so he is able to capitalize.
From a GM perspective, Noah has never had a serious injury, so he is a much better investment, any leg injury on a big man is instantly millions of dollars gone from your next contract.
Good points and the only things I would add are:
1. Bynum does not need Kobe and Pau to facilitate for him, as he has very good post offense. In fact, he can create offense for others because he can demand double teams since there are few Centers in the league now who can match his size and strength in the post. This is probably the only significant advantage I'd say Bynum has over Noah in that you can dump the ball to him to get you points, but can't say the same for Noah. Noah is an opportunistic scorer who cannot create offense for others.
2. With last season and this season's injuries, Noah is starting to follow Bynum's path with regards to getting injured right when he's starting to hit his stride. I sincerely hope that he doesn't continue along that path, as I think he has some great potential and would hate to see him get sidelined each season like Bynum has. Fortunately, as you stated, his injuries don't appear to be serious ones.
3. Noah came into the NBA having played 3 years of college ball, and thus was more polished. Bynum came into the league as a raw 18 year old, and is two years younger. While both are constantly improving their games, there is some room for argument that Bynum may have more room to grow at this point.
As far as Perkins, this doesnt need to be said, but he is the 2nd best defensive center in the league, and arguments could be made him for him being the best defensive center in the league, although thats a whole different topic altogether. With Perkins being such a great defender, the Celtics are able to gamble an awful lot on the defensive end, resulting in a great number of steals for Ray, Pierce, and particularly Rondo who has a great synergy with Perkins, if his hands were the same size as his body he would be on par with Dwight "Man" Howard. Instead he is rocking the Ben Wallace version 2.0 style.
Did you watch last year when the Celtics were in game 7, and couldnt get a rebound for their life? Theres a reason for that, and its something Shaq, and Jermaine can only help fill, and thats their defensive rebounding.
Oh and the best reason Perkins is better is because of the 6 fouls he gives. :D
We'll have to see how Perkins is when he returns from his injury, but he did appear to be the best one-on-one defensive Center in the league just before he got hurt. However, it should be noted that his overall defensive rating was not much better than Bynum's last season (only one point better) and had a block % lower than Bynum's this season. The only reason I point that out is because it supports my opinion that Perkins does not excel as a team defender to the degree that he does as a one-on-one post defender. His offense is also not as polished as Bynum's, and gives up about 2 inches in height, but now I'm just nitpicking 
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On January 11 2011 13:01 tonight wrote:Show nested quote +On January 10 2011 05:33 crazeman wrote:On January 09 2011 09:14 MYM.Testie wrote:
It's absolutely amazing just how far CLE has fallen.
From best record in the NBA to near worst record in the NBA.
It's holy shit amazing. Duno, if you take the MVP from the previous years off their team, the team would be pretty shitty too.... although maybe not worst-team-in-the-league shitty. (IE lakers w/o kobe, mavs w/o dirk, suns w/o nash, spurs w/o duncan, wolves w/o garnet in their respective MVP years... ) I doubt any of those teams would be as bad as the Cavs. Worst one I think would probably be the Suns without Nash.
they also "lost" (fired) their coach/gm as well... while I don't think the spurs/lakers would be that bad but i do think the timberwolves, 76ers and suns would of definitely been complete shit if you took out garnet/AI/nash/
http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/MIN/2004.html
lol, basically asides from cassel, spreewell (at 35 and 34 years old) and Szczerbiak everyone else was garbage. I don't think I see a single player that stayed/accomplished anything in the league.
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I'm sorry but the bias in this thread is sickening. Andrew Bynum is not better than Bogut, Chandler, Okafur, Noah...ok I'm just gonna stop. Anyone even thinking Bynum belongs in the conversation with these guys is insane.
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United States4471 Posts
On January 15 2011 08:58 Ace wrote:
I'm sorry but the bias in this thread is sickening. Andrew Bynum is not better than Bogut, Chandler, Okafur, Noah...ok I'm just gonna stop. Anyone even thinking Bynum belongs in the conversation with these guys is insane.
I don't think anybody (except maybe one?) has said that Bynum is better than Bogut or Noah. As for Okafor and Chandler, I don't see why you think they're so much better than Bynum. Neither is considered an elite or Allstar-caliber Center, and both have shown themselves to be just rebounding and defense specialists despite being in the league for a while already. I've seen nothing to suggest that either are significantly better on defense than Bynum in recent seasons, through either numbers or personal observation, and both have shown little to no aptitude on offense or passing.
Let's not forget that most of this discussion started because you argued that Bynum was just average even when healthy. I think that's further from the truth and more contradictory to evidence like stats and personal observation, than comparing Bynum favorably to Okafor and Chandler.
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While Chandler and Okafur are defensive and rebounding specialists - they are among the top of the league in those attributes.
Dallas has launched from perennial defensive doormat status to top ranks in the league with Chandler at the helm. New Orleans magical run in 07 was anchored with him at the defensive end. Charlotte was one of the better defensive teams with him in the line up last year.
Okafur while not being as popular as Chandler was also one of the top defensive Centers in the league. He was pretty good in Charlotte and this year in New Orleans has been outstanding.
Now neither of these guys are as offensively gifted as Bynum but they are miles ahead of him defensively. While one could argue that Bynum is decent at everything that doesn't make him a better player. He isn't a to tier defensive Center and he isn't a top tier scorer. I mean mentioning that he had 5 games of 20/20 doesn't mean he's dominant. Role Players go off for big games at times but that doesn't mean they are All-Stars. Sustained high level production, injury or not, is what catapults you into top tier status. We don't give guys like Zach Randolph, a 20/10 black hole, a lot of credit for being far better at one end of the floor than others so why should we give it to Bynum? He may be young but he may have reached his peak for all we know. Just because someone is 22 doesn't mean they are guaranteed to get better. From what I've seen watching Laker games he isn't even close to being among the top of the big man heap.
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Actually here is a question:
What team do you think that has a viable Center right now would trade their current Center for Andrew Bynum?
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United States10529 Posts
Look for the lakers to make a run right now to 1st in the west. they are playing great ball, kobe's on fire, pau and bynum are just hammering it down low. odom is just CRAZY!!!
The heat are slowing down though, so that's good.
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A better question would be if we were to ask the GM's from every NBA team if they could draft any center in the NBA right now to start their franchise with who would it be? Obviously Howard would be number 1 but second would be?
@flash I really don't think they are playing that great tbh. Bynum is starting to come alive and is looking hungrier than Gasol. He is actually looking like he might reach his potential now that he is getting healthier. But they are still looking lackadaisical at times >< .
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United States4471 Posts
On January 15 2011 09:59 Ace wrote:
While Chandler and Okafur are defensive and rebounding specialists - they are among the top of the league in those attributes.
Dallas has launched from perennial defensive doormat status to top ranks in the league with Chandler at the helm. New Orleans magical run in 07 was anchored with him at the defensive end. Charlotte was one of the better defensive teams with him in the line up last year.
Okafur while not being as popular as Chandler was also one of the top defensive Centers in the league. He was pretty good in Charlotte and this year in New Orleans has been outstanding.
Now neither of these guys are as offensively gifted as Bynum but they are miles ahead of him defensively. While one could argue that Bynum is decent at everything that doesn't make him a better player. He isn't a to tier defensive Center and he isn't a top tier scorer. I mean mentioning that he had 5 games of 20/20 doesn't mean he's dominant. Role Players go off for big games at times but that doesn't mean they are All-Stars. Sustained high level production, injury or not, is what catapults you into top tier status. We don't give guys like Zach Randolph, a 20/10 black hole, a lot of credit for being far better at one end of the floor than others so why should we give it to Bynum? He may be young but he may have reached his peak for all we know. Just because someone is 22 doesn't mean they are guaranteed to get better. From what I've seen watching Laker games he isn't even close to being among the top of the big man heap.
I know there are limitations to statistics, but here are some that I think are relevant:
Defensive ratings (career/last season/this season):
Chandler: 101 / 102 / 100
Okafor: 104 / 106 / 100
Bynum: 103 / 102 / 102
Block % (career/last season/this season):
Chandler: 3.8 / 3.9 / 3.3
Okafor: 4.3 / 4.1 / 4.4
Bynum: 4.7 / 3.6 / 5.9
I think these numbers show that Bynum is not very far behind in terms of defense when comparing him to the other two who are considered defensive specialists. Chandler and Okafor's impact on their respective teams' defenses is well-documented, but Bynum's effect on the Lakers' defense has been apparent as well. His return in last year's playoffs boosted their interior defense substantially, even with his limited PT and gimpy knee, and his return this season coincided with the Lakers defending the paint and their basket a lot better.
Bynum falls behind significantly when comparing their rebounding ability (the other two are ahead by a good amount), but Bynum's advantage offensively makes up for that.
While Bynum isn't as specialized as Chandler and Okafor, he's also not the jack-of-all-trades-master-of-none that you're making him out to be. Bynum, when healthy, is not just average in scoring, rebounding and defense, he's at least above average or good in those areas. I do agree that he has yet to prove anything because he hasn't sustained his stellar production due to his various injuries, but I think you can at least acknowledge the potential that he's displayed?
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United States4471 Posts
On January 15 2011 10:02 Ace wrote:
Actually here is a question:
What team do you think that has a viable Center right now would trade their current Center for Andrew Bynum?
I guess that depends on what you mean by viable Center, and how wary they would be about his injury history. This is also VERY speculative as no one really knows how GMs or those who make personnel decisions for NBA teams make their decisions, not even themselves it seems at times. Plus, you have to consider how much these players would be getting paid, which factors in as well.
With that said, putting myself in their shoes, I think the following teams would trade their "viable" starting Centers for Bynum straight up if they were not scared of the injury risk.
DAL: Chandler
NOR: Okafor
LAC: Jordan
BOS: Perkins (Bynum is basically Perkins + offense)
CLE: Varejao
WAS: McGee
HOU: iffy option because they'd replace Yao for certain, but Miller and Hayes aren't really "viable"
MEM: Gasol (defense is quite poor and Bynum would pair up better with Z-Bo)
SA: assuming Duncan is PF and Blair is considered "viable"
MIN: Darko
OKC: Krstic/Ibaka
POR: Camby
PHO: Lopez/Gortat
SAC: Dalembert/Thompson
I think there's a chance that DEN and UTA would consider the trade if they wanted a defensive presence in the paint, but Nene and Al Jeff arguably fit their teams' systems better offensively and both teams are offensive-oriented. IND might do it if Hibbert doesn't turn things around, but I don't think they'd give up on him so easy.
Teams like NY and ATL are starting talented PFs at C, and would love to get Bynum and slide them over, but that's not appropriate for the purposes of the question and the backup Cs are not what I'd consider "viable".
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Anyone see the double behind-the-back sequence in Utah vs Cleveland? It's unusual and delightful for a Jazz fan to see flashy plays, while Blake Griffin seems to have several every game.
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Bynum's a good offensive player, but he has some pretty dumb defensive lapses. maybe he's gotten better this season. Haven't watched many Bynum games so far.
Derek Fisher has a 105 defensive rating, so his rating is inflated just having a lot of bigs/the system. The games I've watched, Bynum has a high foul rate.
Grizzlies wouldn't trade Marc Gasol (104 rating) for Bynum, at least not 2009-2010 Marc Gasol.
Ibaka (101 rating 2009, 105 2010) for Bynum would be a bad trade.
Deandre Jordan (104 rating), maybe in the short term, but terrible in the long term.
Chandler (101 rating), bad trade, if you've followed the Mavs "defensive revolution" this season.
Perkins, maybe just because of his free throws. Though I'd much rather have Perkins against Dwight Howard.
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Why doesn't Dwight Howard take 15-20 shots a game? o_O)
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On January 16 2011 14:54 MYM.Testie wrote:
Why doesn't Dwight Howard take 15-20 shots a game? o_O)
he does?
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United States4471 Posts
On January 16 2011 08:07 igotmyown wrote:
Bynum's a good offensive player, but he has some pretty dumb defensive lapses. maybe he's gotten better this season. Haven't watched many Bynum games so far.
Derek Fisher has a 105 defensive rating, so his rating is inflated just having a lot of bigs/the system. The games I've watched, Bynum has a high foul rate.
Grizzlies wouldn't trade Marc Gasol (104 rating) for Bynum, at least not 2009-2010 Marc Gasol.
Ibaka (101 rating 2009, 105 2010) for Bynum would be a bad trade.
Deandre Jordan (104 rating), maybe in the short term, but terrible in the long term.
Chandler (101 rating), bad trade, if you've followed the Mavs "defensive revolution" this season.
Perkins, maybe just because of his free throws. Though I'd much rather have Perkins against Dwight Howard.
Marc Gasol in 2010-2011 isn't the same as he was in 2009-2010. His production is down across the board. However, I will concede that he's a very solid player who is improving as he acclimates to the NBA, and could arguably be kept over Bynum. This was a close call, but I would take Bynum if I thought he could ever last an entire season, but not by much admittedly.
I would take Bynum over Ibaka. Ibaka is a bit small for a Center, and can't guard any of the true 7 footers one-on-one. Last season, the Thunder were able to make up for that with great team defense, but having a guy who can guard players like Dwight or Gasol one-on-one is valuable, particularly for teams with championship aspirations. He also lacks the ability to create offense on his own for anyone else, as he doesn't demand double teams and is an opportunistic scorer. Bynum's advantages in those areas put him a notch above in my view. However, that's just my personal view and I can easily see how someone may prefer Ibaka's athleticism.
DeAndre Jordan is a true rebounding and defensive specialist. He has virtually no offense, and can pretty much only dunk and score off putbacks. He also doesn't have a particularly high basketball IQ and makes a lot of boneheaded plays. The IQ and bonehead plays will probably decrease with more experience, but I don't see DeAndre ever developing into any kind of reliable scorer. So, as with Ibaka, I'd prefer Bynum with his ability to both be an offensive and defensive impact player.
Chandler is a specialist like Ibaka and DeAndre, except more experienced and brittle. I'm not convinced that Chandler will be able stay healthy for extended periods, and he's never going to develop any sort of offensive game at this point. Same arguments for why I'd prefer a healthy Bynum. I also think that the Mavs' defensive revolution can be credited to the whole team coming together on defense, and them implementing and executing the best zone defense I can remember. I think people are forgetting that Kidd, Caron and Marion (as well as Stevenson and Haywood to a lesser extent) are all good defenders, and that it's not like Chandler alone triggered their turnaround.
You've hit the nail on the head with Perkins' great value in the East. Any team that has championship aspirations needs to have a solution for Dwight, and Perkins is the Celtics' (well, and Shaq at this point). He is a great on-ball post defender, which makes him very valuable in taking down the Magic, who are now perennial contenders in the East. However, he's coming off a pretty serious injury, and never had much of a ceiling to begin with. If his injury limits his production going forward at all, he becomes even more of a role player than he was before. With that said, I'm also a fan of Perkins and can definitely see a GM preferring him over Bynum.
In the end, it's pretty hard to just pick one Center over another without considering a lot of factors. Each team is designed differently, both according to its style of play and the rest of its roster. Players like DeAndre, Chandler and Ibaka fit their teams very well because they don't necessarily need another offensive threat. I'm sure if you offered them a true offensive post presence who could demand double teams, they'd be more than glad to take it. But they're also fine with Centers who just do the dirty work while their other star scoring threats (Gordon, Griffin, Durant, Westbrook, Nowitzki, Terry, etc.) carry the offensive load.
I'm personally the type of guy who think that a true back-to-the-basket 7'0 270+ lbs Center is an invaluable asset to a team. It's been shown time and time again that you need some way to generate offense when things slow down if you want to win in the postseason. Teams lock down on defense, offenses flow less freely, and pace slows down in the playoffs. It's in those moments where being able to dump the ball inside to a big man who can either score over his defender or force a double-team can help you grind it out or free up your perimeter game. The past few championship teams have all had one, i.e. Duncan, Gasol, and KG, so the evidence is pretty convincing in my opinion. As a result, Bynum, who I think can be that kind of player, and who can also be an impact player on defense, unlike guys like Z-Bo, Al Jeff or Boozer, should be a very attractive trade/FA acquisition. But that all comes with the big question that is his health, which everyone has to gauge on their own.
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I don't agree with Orlando being a perennial contender :D
All in all - I have 0 faith in Hedo Turkoglu.
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Lakers are back, and compared to last year they are 2 losses off, in the negative direction. and i believe this run they're on will keep being larger and larger until a tight game goes wrong for them.
The Nets, my fav team of all time, but since they're really shitty right now...so Carmelo is my hope.
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What do you TLers think of Carmelo going to the Nets, happening or not? and should they?
i mean the nets are giving away talented young players and 2 1st round draft picks so...what?
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Shaq was the only good 270+ pound center. People started overvaluing bulky, heavy centers, and they ended up with a generation of centers with perennial knee problems.
Tim Duncan: 255
Dwight Howard: 265
Hakeem: 255
Kareem: 267 (for a 7'2" guy)
David Robinson: 235
Bill Russell, though he was 6'9: 220
Patrick Ewing: 255
Moses Malone: 265
even wilt, who was massive: 275
Now let's check some of the injury plagued post-Shaq centers:
Bynum: 285, knee problems
Greg Oden: 285
Yao Ming: 310 lb (of course he's 7'6)
Eddie Curry: 285
Perkins (285) has remained relatively healthy.
You don't heavyweight centers.
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EPT
