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He's a 4th option because he isn't that good. If he was better he'd be more than a 4th option. Really it's not like I'm talking alien here.
By All-Star I'm not talking numbers. I'm talking straight up who's so talented and good that they deserve to be acknowledged as belonging in a game with the very best in the NBA.
Your assertion that Andrew Bynum is beastly isn't supported by any fact that I have seen. His entire career has been built on what if's and unfortunately that doesn't hold in real life. He's a good role player and that's about it.
If Andrew Bynum is as beastly as you say where are his multiple All-NBA First and Second team selections? Rebounding titles? Blocking titles? All-NBA Defensive Team? Defensive Player of The Year?
He has none. He's good at what he does but not beastly.
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Bynum is a role player, but a good one at that. If he was anchoring the offence there'd be trouble but he fits into the Laker system well and is definitely a key player for them.
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I agree with you Ace but at the same time let's think of what other true centers are better than Bynum these days... Dwight Howard and uhmm uhm maybe Bogut, but no he has no all-NBA first or second team selections or rebounding/blocking titles, uhm Kaman (haha no). He is pretty much the 2nd best true center at this point considering his skillset and how young he is. If he was with any other team I think we would see better numbers from him, obviously not counting his injuries and the time it takes to completely recover and get into game shape. So I agree he is not a beast, but still a valuable commodity considering everything.
edit: and I disagree with Mcdyess/Duncan/Blair being enough to handle the Laker bigs...Blair is undersized and Duncan and Mcdyess are pretty much almost 40, and although Duncan has adapted to his age, he is still so slow now when compared to his younger days. Bynum/Gasol/Odom and even Joe Smith will be too overwhelming imo but hey the game still has to be played so we will see.
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United States4471 Posts
While I agree that Bynum's potential is often overblown by his supporters in light of how little he's really shown thus far in his career, I think he's done plenty to show that he's more than just "average at best" when healthy. He has shown improvement in his game each season he's been in the league, and has shown the work ethic to work to keep coming back and improving his game despite his many setbacks due to injuries.
Further, Bynum was showing some very serious game right before each of his serious injuries in the 07-08 and 08-09 seasons. In 07-08, once he started getting close to 30 min/g around Dec, he began averaging somewhere in the neighborhood of 16/10/2.5 while shooting over 60% from the field. In 08-09, just as he was starting to get back into form after rehabbing from the injury, he started putting up almost 17/8/1.8 shooting over 57% from the field and while improving his FT shooting to 70+%. While these runs did come in only a few weeks each, there are very few players in the league capable of putting up those kinds of numbers while playing on a very good team as the 3rd option at best.
Beyond just the numbers, I remember watching the games and thinking to myself just how good he was at scoring with both power and skill, how great his hands were at catching passes in difficult situations, and the impact his presence in the paint had on both defense and rebounding. He was a dominant force in the paint during those stints, and many experts and coaches shared that opinion.
As recently as last season, Bynum once again showed his talent after working himself back from injuries. In Jan, he had worked himself back up to approx 17/8/1.5 while shooting 59% from the field, got hurt in Feb, and worked himself back up to approx 15/9/1.5 at 58% again in March. All of this while maintaining a FT% in the mid 70's. Even when hobbled in the playoffs and being very limited by his knee, Bynum made a very positive impact in both rebounding and defense by virtue of his size and length alone.
Yes, Bynum has yet to really prove anything. All of his flashes of potential, even if it is incredible, have been short-lived and never sustained. Due to his inability to stay healthy, he's never been able to prove that he can sustain his great production over an entire season, and has thus never managed to win any awards, appointed to any All-NBA or Allstar teams, or be a leader in any particular category. However, his potential has been seen repeatedly, he has continued to improve his game in every season he's played, and his potential, when it's been shown, has truly been impressive. There are very few players who have shown themselves capable of the all-around game that Bynum has whenever he's been healthy, and to call him simply average or even slightly above-average when healthy is to sell him short. Very short.
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Centers better than Bynum (clearly):
Howard, Duncan, Chandler, Bogut, Al Jefferson, Joakim Noah.
I'd put Bynum up there with 2nd tier centers, along with guys like Marc Gasol, Roy Hibbert, McGee (hes really improved this year)... although it sucks he really has yet to play a full season for us to see what his real potential can be.
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On January 14 2011 17:02 MassHysteria wrote:
I agree with you Ace but at the same time let's think of what other true centers are better than Bynum these days... Dwight Howard and uhmm uhm maybe Bogut, but no he has no all-NBA first or second team selections or rebounding/blocking titles, uhm Kaman (haha no). He is pretty much the 2nd best true center at this point considering his skillset and how young he is. If he was with any other team I think we would see better numbers from him, obviously not counting his injuries and the time it takes to completely recover and get into game shape. So I agree he is not a beast, but still a valuable commodity considering everything.
edit: and I disagree with Mcdyess/Duncan/Blair being enough to handle the Laker bigs...Blair is undersized and Duncan and Mcdyess are pretty much almost 40, and although Duncan has adapted to his age, he is still so slow now when compared to his younger days. Bynum/Gasol/Odom and even Joe Smith will be too overwhelming imo but hey the game still has to be played so we will see.
I'd take Bogut and Okafur over Bynum. Maybe Tyson Chandler, Brook Lopez, Marc Gasol and depending on what risks I want Marcus Camby :D
Blair being undersized isn't bad. He's a wide body and can rebound. He's no Charles Barkley but he's another physical big. Duncan and McDyess are still solid even at their advanced age. Why'd you count Joe Smith before Theo Ratliff though?  That's the guy if healthy I think pushes the Lakers past the Spurs. Then again I don't know if he still has the defensive ability of his past years.
On January 14 2011 17:08 XaI)CyRiC wrote:
While I agree that Bynum's potential is often overblown by his supporters in light of how little he's really shown thus far in his career, I think he's done plenty to show that he's more than just "average at best" when healthy. He has shown improvement in his game each season he's been in the league, and has shown the work ethic to work to keep coming back and improving his game despite his many setbacks due to injuries.
Further, Bynum was showing some very serious game right before each of his serious injuries in the 07-08 and 08-09 seasons. In 07-08, once he started getting close to 30 min/g around Dec, he began averaging somewhere in the neighborhood of 16/10/2.5 while shooting over 60% from the field. In 08-09, just as he was starting to get back into form after rehabbing from the injury, he started putting up almost 17/8/1.8 shooting over 57% from the field and while improving his FT shooting to 70+%. While these runs did come in only a few weeks each, there are very few players in the league capable of putting up those kinds of numbers while playing on a very good team as the 3rd option at best.
Unfortunately work ethic alone doesn't always equal greatness. Bynum has improved but I don't agree that it's at a rate that makes him above average. He isn't even a better offensive threat than Dwight Howard or Andrew Bogut. Both defensive monsters that worked on their offensive games a lot over the years. Bynum's best scoring season was short lived and since then he hasn't shown the ability to be a consistent threat. If he was a 18+ppg scorer I'd believe it but he isn't.
As an aside if he put up a 17/8/1.8 that still doesn't make him better than what he is. Yes, he's flashed potential. But sustaining that potential against all manners of competition is what pushes role players past their status. Bynum isn't it. Was he getting those numbers because he's the 3rd option while being that good or because he's the 3rd option playing with Kobe and Pau? If his career so far is anything to go by then it's the latter. If Bynum was really that good I'm sure he'd have some more NBA awards on his resume.
Beyond just the numbers, I remember watching the games and thinking to myself just how good he was at scoring with both power and skill, how great his hands were at catching passes in difficult situations, and the impact his presence in the paint had on both defense and rebounding. He was a dominant force in the paint during those stints, and many experts and coaches shared that opinion.
As recently as last season, Bynum once again showed his talent after working himself back from injuries. In Jan, he had worked himself back up to approx 17/8/1.5 while shooting 59% from the field, got hurt in Feb, and worked himself back up to approx 15/9/1.5 at 58% again in March. All of this while maintaining a FT% in the mid 70's. Even when hobbled in the playoffs and being very limited by his knee, Bynum made a very positive impact in both rebounding and defense by virtue of his size and length alone.
Yes, Bynum has yet to really prove anything. All of his flashes of potential, even if it is incredible, have been short-lived and never sustained. Due to his inability to stay healthy, he's never been able to prove that he can sustain his great production over an entire season, and has thus never managed to win any awards, appointed to any All-NBA or Allstar teams, or be a leader in any particular category. However, his potential has been seen repeatedly, he has continued to improve his game in every season he's played, and his potential, when it's been shown, has truly been impressive. There are very few players who have shown themselves capable of the all-around game that Bynum has whenever he's been healthy, and to call him simply average or even slightly above-average when healthy is to sell him short. Very short.
Experts and coaches say a lot of things. In fact a lot of players are praised for being able to do a couple of things well. Andrew Bynum is good but I bet if you ask those experts and coaches is he an All-Star level player I don't think they would say so. I keep bringing up his name but I think it's a great comparison: Emeka Okafur. Another guy who's a force in the paint but who isn't an All-Star level Center. Good at what he does and that's about it. You are saying that very few players are capable of doing what Bynum does when healthy and that I can't agree with. Bynum has never, ever been dominant when healthy. At best he's been good. Has Bynum ever played at an All-Star level to the likes of Dwight, Bogut, or Amar'e? Even guys that haven't been to an All-Star game like Al Jefferson have been better than Bynum for years while getting less hype. Potential is just that - potential. And from what he's shown his potential at best has him limited to being a very good role player - not a feature attraction.
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Bynum doesn't win any All-Star/2nd team honors or any offensive/defensive titles because he can not stay healthy. There's a difference between that and being average, even if it's ultimately the same thing in effect.
The whole debate started when you said he's an average player at best even when 100%, which, again, is complete nonsense. We have seen Bynum at 100%, and he put on stretches of dominant performances when he was playing at that level, not inconsistently exploding for singular games like the guys you compared him to.
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On January 14 2011 17:39 Ace wrote:
Bynum has never, ever been dominant when healthy.
Now you are just being blatantly ignorant. What else do you call 5 games in a row of near 20/20s? He did that last season.
At best he's been good.
Wait a minute, I thought you said he was "average at best even when 100%"?
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I remember watching Bynum in 07-08. He was definitely dominant just before he got hurt.
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United States4471 Posts
On January 14 2011 17:39 Ace wrote:Unfortunately work ethic alone doesn't always equal greatness. Bynum has improved but I don't agree that it's at a rate that makes him above average. He isn't even a better offensive threat than Dwight Howard or Andrew Bogut. Both defensive monsters that worked on their offensive games a lot over the years. Bynum's best scoring season was short lived and since then he hasn't shown the ability to be a consistent threat. If he was a 18+ppg scorer I'd believe it but he isn't.
As an aside if he put up a 17/8/1.8 that still doesn't make him better than what he is. Yes, he's flashed potential. But sustaining that potential against all manners of competition is what pushes role players past their status. Bynum isn't it. Was he getting those numbers because he's the 3rd option while being that good or because he's the 3rd option playing with Kobe and Pau? If his career so far is anything to go by then it's the latter. If Bynum was really that good I'm sure he'd have some more NBA awards on his resume.
Not going to disagree with you that Dwight is a better all-around player than Bynum right now, but I don't think being worse than the undisputed best Center in the league makes him "average". As for just on offense, I would argue that Bynum has a much better back-to-the-basket traditional post game, while Dwight has more of a face-up game where he uses his speed and athleticism to score. Both are effective and work to their respective strengths, but I don't think Dwight is a much better scorer and his FT shooting is significantly worse. Bogut is also one of the better two-way Centers in the league right now, so I don't think it takes much away from Bynum if he's rated below him at this point.
It's also unfair to compare the development of two players who have been their teams' best players for the past few seasons, while Bynum has been playing behind Kobe and Pau (two of the best players at their respective positions) and has been limited by injuries. Dwight is the unquestioned #1 star on his team and the entire team is built around him. The amount of opportunities he gets as compared to Bynum isn't comparable. The same largely applies to Bogut as well, as he has no Allstar level player next to him and gets all the scoring opportunities he can handle. A straight comparison to Bynum, who is his team's 3rd option, isn't a fair one.
As for NBA awards, Bynum hasn't been able to win any because of the lack of opportunity due to having Kobe and Pau on his team and the injuries he's suffered. Odom's production over the past few seasons (prior to this one) has been underwhelming, but no one would consider him to be just "average" for his position. The fact is that the Lakers have a lot of talent on their team and are in a full-on win-now championship mode. Those aren't circumstances that are ideal to anyone apart from Kobe or Pau to win any awards or stand out too much.
Experts and coaches say a lot of things. In fact a lot of players are praised for being able to do a couple of things well. Andrew Bynum is good but I bet if you ask those experts and coaches is he an All-Star level player I don't think they would say so. I keep bringing up his name but I think it's a great comparison: Emeka Okafur. Another guy who's a force in the paint but who isn't an All-Star level Center. Good at what he does and that's about it. You are saying that very few players are capable of doing what Bynum does when healthy and that I can't agree with. Bynum has never, ever been dominant when healthy. At best he's been good. Has Bynum ever played at an All-Star level to the likes of Dwight, Bogut, or Amar'e? Even guys that haven't been to an All-Star game like Al Jefferson have been better than Bynum for years while getting less hype. Potential is just that - potential. And from what he's shown his potential at best has him limited to being a very good role player - not a feature attraction.
Bynum isn't praised for being able to do a couple of things well. When experts and coaches talk about his potential, they talk about him being one of the most dominant Centers in the league. He has great post offense and defense, soft hands for receiving passes, and has become a great help defender as well. Okafor, for comparison purposes, is terrible on offense and is purely a rebounding and defense expert. There was a period of time where he was considered the best player on the Bobcats but never did anything with the opportunity. He was inefficient from the field and at the FT line, being one of the league leaders in getting his shot blocked at his position. Bynum has had a more developed offensive game for years now.
Saying Bynum isn't at the level of players like Dwight, Bogut and Amare, doesn't make him merely an average player. Those are all franchise Allstar-level big men, who are very rare and hard to come by in the league. Also, as has been repeated many times, his opportunities have been limited significantly by playing next to Kobe and Pau, as well as his injuries. No one's saying that Bynum is an all-world, guaranteed-Allstar talent when healthy. Your argument was that he's just average and not even good when healthy. It's all ultimately a matter of opinion, but I think Bynum has shown plenty of evidence that he's undeniably much more than average, and definitely good when healthy.
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On January 14 2011 17:22 Xeris wrote:
Centers better than Bynum (clearly):
Howard, Duncan, Chandler, Bogut, Al Jefferson, Joakim Noah.
I'd put Bynum up there with 2nd tier centers, along with guys like Marc Gasol, Roy Hibbert, McGee (hes really improved this year)... although it sucks he really has yet to play a full season for us to see what his real potential can be.
Howard is the only TRUE center better than Bynum in that list when you consider skillset and age...Duncan is too old and is a step slow, you would see Bynum dominate him now and when you consider their age there is not even a comparison...Chandler has also had a lot of of injuries just like Bynum but Bynum is a wayyy more skilled offensively than Chandler, who I like for his hustle/defense/rebounding but still lacks in actual skill...Bogut is a greeat player but I would argue I would take Bynum over Bogut, not only because he is younger, but Bynum has a lot more upside than Bogut who pretty much is already playing at his best/prime. Bogut is also softer than bynum, who is really just now developing his body and learning to use it and be tough inside...Jefferson isn't even a true center, he is a PF...Noah is just like Chandler who i love for his hustle/def/rebounding but lacks in overall skill specially on the offensive side.
On January 14 2011 17:39 Ace wrote:Show nested quote +On January 14 2011 17:02 MassHysteria wrote:
I agree with you Ace but at the same time let's think of what other true centers are better than Bynum these days... Dwight Howard and uhmm uhm maybe Bogut, but no he has no all-NBA first or second team selections or rebounding/blocking titles, uhm Kaman (haha no). He is pretty much the 2nd best true center at this point considering his skillset and how young he is. If he was with any other team I think we would see better numbers from him, obviously not counting his injuries and the time it takes to completely recover and get into game shape. So I agree he is not a beast, but still a valuable commodity considering everything.
edit: and I disagree with Mcdyess/Duncan/Blair being enough to handle the Laker bigs...Blair is undersized and Duncan and Mcdyess are pretty much almost 40, and although Duncan has adapted to his age, he is still so slow now when compared to his younger days. Bynum/Gasol/Odom and even Joe Smith will be too overwhelming imo but hey the game still has to be played so we will see. I'd take Bogut and Okafur over Bynum. Maybe Tyson Chandler, Brook Lopez, Marc Gasol and depending on what risks I want Marcus Camby :D Blair being undersized isn't bad. He's a wide body and can rebound. He's no Charles Barkley but he's another physical big. Duncan and McDyess are still solid even at their advanced age. Why'd you count Joe Smith before Theo Ratliff though? That's the guy if healthy I think pushes the Lakers past the Spurs. Then again I don't know if he still has the defensive ability of his past years.
I would not take Bogut or Okafur over Bynum who are already playing at their prime while Bynum is barely 23...Bogut is good but his upside is way less than Bynum, specially when you consider that Bynum only really started playing basketball into his SENIOR year of high school, skipped college and went into the NBA at 17. Okafur really? That guy is more inconsistent than even Bynum, except Okafur actually played in college and is older.
Ahh I did forget about Ratliff Although you are right I don't know how he will play after he comes back from this injury but I mean for his age, that guy is so healthy. Besides I am sure the Lakers are not counting on him at all, or would even need him against the Spurs bigs...blair could be compared to the Lakers rookie Caracter, and he is pretty much the last guy on their bench right now!
And amare is not a true center, he is a PF playing center who should not be compared to Bynum.
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you cant really dismiss better centers by saying "they are a PF !" well they are playing center so that means they will be matched up against Bynum, which means we are open to comparing them against Bynum.
Oh, and Bogut, Jefferson and Noah are much, MUCH better players, your bias is quite obvious. Perkins is a better player, and hasnt been mentioned. Being a scorer doesnt mean dick for a center, being able to protect the rim and be the last line of defense is much better.
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United States4471 Posts
On January 14 2011 17:22 Xeris wrote:
Centers better than Bynum (clearly):
Howard, Duncan, Chandler, Bogut, Al Jefferson, Joakim Noah.
I'd put Bynum up there with 2nd tier centers, along with guys like Marc Gasol, Roy Hibbert, McGee (hes really improved this year)... although it sucks he really has yet to play a full season for us to see what his real potential can be.
Agree except as to Chandler and Al Jefferson.
Chandler is a very limited player in that all he brings to the table is rebounding and defense. Offensively, he brings nothing to the table except being able to finish lob passes right at the basket. He's also inconsistent and about as injury-prone as any player in the league (was known as Mr. Glass for a while if I remember correctly). This season has been an aberration as to him staying healthy, and I fully expect him to miss a significant amount of games at some point. If you're going to pick an injury-prone Center, I'd prefer Bynum with his much more complete skillset and size/strength.
Al Jefferson, while a very gifted scorer, is a poor defender. His best attributes are his ability to score and rebound the ball. Prior to tearing his ACL, Al Jeff was a consistent 20/10 guy. However, since tearing his ACL, he hasn't returned to that same form. Both his scoring and rebounding have suffered, and he's hovering around 16.5 and 8.7 right now. So, taking Al Jeff as he stands now, with his poor defense and injury history, I would not take him over Bynum, at least not clearly. Bynum's defense is much better both individually and team-wise, and he's already shown himself to be capable of putting up 16.5 and 8.7 type numbers similar %s when he's on the floor, despite having more talent around him for the entirety of his career. This is entirely arguable though, I only disagree with the clearly better designation.
I also believe that McGee should not be considered a 2nd-tier Center, at least not along the lines of Marc Gasol and Roy Hibbert. McGee has shown himself to have a very low basketball IQ, and currently just a young, athletic player on a team going nowhere. His skillset is unimpressive, and he frequently gets himself in trouble going for blocks, as opposed to playing solid defense. Honestly, I'd rank Ibaka above McGee at this point as he seems smarter, plays more solid defense, has shown more maturity, and is doing it all on a much better team.
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United States4471 Posts
On January 15 2011 05:08 Holcan wrote:
you cant really dismiss better centers by saying "they are a PF !" well they are playing center so that means they will be matched up against Bynum, which means we are open to comparing them against Bynum.
Oh, and Bogut, Jefferson and Noah are much, MUCH better players, your bias is quite obvious. Perkins is a better player, and hasnt been mentioned. Being a scorer doesnt mean dick for a center, being able to protect the rim and be the last line of defense is much better.
It's true that being a PF playing C doesn't make players incomparable to Bynum, but it should be noted that one of the greater appeals of Bynum is that he's one of the very few true Centers in the league right now. The number of players with his type of size and strength, coupled with his back-to-the-basket post offense and ability to dominate the paint in rebounding and defense, is very hard to come by. Those attributes become very valuable in the postseason in particular when games slow down a lot and teams really dig in on defense.
It's interesting that you state that Jefferson is a much better player than Bynum, while at the same time stating that the ability to protect the rim and play defense outweigh scoring. Jefferson is a very poor defender, both on the ball and as a help defender. I agree that Bogut is clearly better than Bynum right now. Noah is a bit less certain because he's also quite a specialist that is very limited on offense. However, it's definitely arguable that Noah's level of defense and rebounding, and other intangibles, make him better than Bynum right now. Further, Noah appears to be working on his offense and could continue to improve. Still, I personally think Bynum, if healthy, could potentially bring just as much value with his better all-around game. But that's just potential, and we're talking about what's going on now.
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I'm a Wiz fan and I don't think McGee should be anywhere near the upper lists of Centers. We laugh at his Olympic camp invitations as some sort of funny joke. Why do people outside of DC think he's actually good? The dude's still got a pebble for a brain, he's just a freakish athletes but you can find freakish athletes all over the league.
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On January 15 2011 05:31 XaI)CyRiC wrote:Show nested quote +On January 15 2011 05:08 Holcan wrote:
you cant really dismiss better centers by saying "they are a PF !" well they are playing center so that means they will be matched up against Bynum, which means we are open to comparing them against Bynum.
Oh, and Bogut, Jefferson and Noah are much, MUCH better players, your bias is quite obvious. Perkins is a better player, and hasnt been mentioned. Being a scorer doesnt mean dick for a center, being able to protect the rim and be the last line of defense is much better. It's true that being a PF playing C doesn't make players incomparable to Bynum, but it should be noted that one of the greater appeals of Bynum is that he's one of the very few true Centers in the league right now. The number of players with his type of size and strength, coupled with his back-to-the-basket post offense and ability to dominate the paint in rebounding and defense, is very hard to come by. Those attributes become very valuable in the postseason in particular when games slow down a lot and teams really dig in on defense. It's interesting that you state that Jefferson is a much better player than Bynum, while at the same time stating that the ability to protect the rim and play defense outweigh scoring. Jefferson is a very poor defender, both on the ball and as a help defender. I agree that Bogut is clearly better than Bynum right now. Noah is a bit less certain because he's also quite a specialist that is very limited on offense. However, it's definitely arguable that Noah's level of defense and rebounding, and other intangibles, make him better than Bynum right now. Further, Noah appears to be working on his offense and could continue to improve. Still, I personally think Bynum, if healthy, could potentially bring just as much value with his better all-around game. But that's just potential, and we're talking about what's going on now.
Your right about your point on Jefferson, and my statement, however Jefferson is just a more well polished player, with experience of being a high option player. Now that he is a team that used to use MeMo as their starting center, you will see him start to develop into a player that fits their style. Averaging close to 17/9 with 2 blocks is doing pretty well, not to mention he shoots an impressive 78% from the line. I know its a small sample size, and i expect all these numbers to go up, but Bynum is rocking a 11/7 with 1.8 blocks, and only 60% from the line. So as of right now, Jefferson gets the better player nod by sheer numbers, however im sure once Bynum gets his minutes back I'll still think Jefferson is better, especially if he continues to rack up a career high in blocks per game.
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I have been saying TRUE center all along in my arguments, not center as in the position they play for their team. The NBA has changed a lot in recent years to a more uptempo game so alot of teams use PF as their centers because it fits their style better. With that said, NONE of those teams have won a championship. I am thinking you are probably a younger guy for you to not understand this so I would say study a little bit of NBA history to understand what true centers are. Your opinion of Bogut being better than Bynum is fine but don't say I am biased, bc that is the quality you will find the least in my opinions. A lot of people seem to have an opinion about Bynum haven't seen him play as much/or don't know much about him, yet I am a basketball fan that have been seeing a lot of these players since college and am looking at this from a GM's point of view...
edit: and I would love to know how Noah or Perkins has a better overall skillset than Bynum? Explain your opinions don't just write stuff.
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It doesnt matter if Bynum has a better overall skill set (in your opinion), Noah is just a better player. Noah is the type of player that everyone wants on their team, he brings the hardworking dynamic without ever asking for anything in return. Not only that, but he thoroughly enjoys his position as a hard worker, which is dreadfully uncommon in this league. He can guard smaller defenders quite well as well as holding his own against premier centers. He is good at Man to Man D, as well as help D. He has shown to be steadily increasing his skill since he entered the NBA, and was a winner in the NCAA.
From a stats perspective, Noah gets steals, something Bynum doesnt do very often. Noah is also better at offensive rebounding, while being more consistent at defensive rebounding. Joakim also gives you 14 points, without you ever drawing up a single play for him, where as Bynum requires Kobe and Pau to facilitate for him, so he is able to capitalize.
From a GM perspective, Noah has never had a serious injury, so he is a much better investment, any leg injury on a big man is instantly millions of dollars gone from your next contract.
As far as Perkins, this doesnt need to be said, but he is the 2nd best defensive center in the league, and arguments could be made him for him being the best defensive center in the league, although thats a whole different topic altogether. With Perkins being such a great defender, the Celtics are able to gamble an awful lot on the defensive end, resulting in a great number of steals for Ray, Pierce, and particularly Rondo who has a great synergy with Perkins, if his hands were the same size as his body he would be on par with Dwight "Man" Howard. Instead he is rocking the Ben Wallace version 2.0 style.
Did you watch last year when the Celtics were in game 7, and couldnt get a rebound for their life? Theres a reason for that, and its something Shaq, and Jermaine can only help fill, and thats their defensive rebounding.
Oh and the best reason Perkins is better is because of the 6 fouls he gives. :D
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United States4471 Posts
I like the debate and discussion going on here, but I would ask that people try to tone down the animosity in the posts. We can aggressively argue our positions without being condescending or insulting, and while being respectful to each other whether we agree or not.
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United States4471 Posts
On January 15 2011 06:08 Holcan wrote:Your right about your point on Jefferson, and my statement, however Jefferson is just a more well polished player, with experience of being a high option player. Now that he is a team that used to use MeMo as their starting center, you will see him start to develop into a player that fits their style. Averaging close to 17/9 with 2 blocks is doing pretty well, not to mention he shoots an impressive 78% from the line. I know its a small sample size, and i expect all these numbers to go up, but Bynum is rocking a 11/7 with 1.8 blocks, and only 60% from the line. So as of right now, Jefferson gets the better player nod by sheer numbers, however im sure once Bynum gets his minutes back I'll still think Jefferson is better, especially if he continues to rack up a career high in blocks per game.
Not necessarily disagreeing with you, but I found some stats that caught my eye comparing the two:
While Al Jeff is averaging more blocks per game, Bynum has more blocks per 48 min, and a higher block %.
Bynum has better offense and defense ratings.
Al Jeff has a higher defensive rebounding %, but Bynum has higher offensive and total rebounding %s.
Al Jeff has a lower TS% and eFG% than Bynum.
Al Jeff is a better passer and turns the ball over less.
Bynum has a higher PER than Al Jeff (not a stat I rely on much, but another one to consider)
While Al Jeff has more win shares, Bynum has more win shares per 48 min.
Not sure how convincing numbers from this season are since Al Jeff is getting used to a new team and Bynum is recovering from injury, but just food for thought when comparing the two at this point in time.
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EPT
