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On April 10 2011 02:00 BalliSLife wrote: That's partially due to his size though. But overall wouldn't his scoring and some steals compensate for his d?
Sure, but he kind of never prepared himself, kind of like just put himself on cruise control after a certain point and we all know how that ended.
He had good seasons but he also had some really bad ones that really just consisted of him jacking up shots all night every game.
Anyone trying to argue for his defensive prowess, he left his man a lot and teams took notice of this.
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It's true that ai had a hard time playing with other players that wanted the ball just as much as he did early on in his career (stackhouse) as he wanted to be the top dog like most players. But besides having Andre iguodala in his later years as a sixer, he never really had anyone else that he could rely on to be more of an offensive threat besides himself, which is why after game 1 in the 2001 finals, Phil Jackson just decided to triple team his ass every single time he touched the ball and let his teammates try and score. Not to mention the refs never seemed to call all the elbows mutombo was taking to the face, it was brutal to watch.
Ever since they got close in 2001 the same formula couldn't work and I believe the best players that eventually came to the sixers was Chris webber and Elton brand and I honestly can't recall if injuries were a factor or if webber retired soon after he joined becase they never managed to develop any type chemistry with ai.
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second scorers for the 76ers off the top of my head kukoc, harpring, van horn, glenn robinson, webber, mutombo (lol), i think i'm missing someone but w/e the pu pu platter for sure
brand joined MUCH later dunno why they're in the same paragraph
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United States4471 Posts
Simmons is a mixed bag when it comes to his opinions, but he's a great writer and I liked this section he wrote up about Rose because it conveys my opinion on his MVP candidacy.
+ Show Spoiler +To be honest, this is probably one of those years when there wasn't totally a most valuable player (like 2005 and 2007, actually). Sadly, we can't roll the trophy over like it's a skins match and make next year's award count for two. We have to hand it out. The case against Rose is twofold:
A. Chicago's MVP has been its tenacious defense (not Rose). That's fine except for the part that every true contender assumes the personality of its best player. Russell's Celtics won 11 of 13 titles because he cared about winning more than anyone ever ... until Jordan, whose teams won six titles because he cared about winning more than anyone other than Russell. Bird's Celtics teams assumed his personality; they were all terrified of letting him down. Magic's Lakers teams assumed his personality; carefree in those early years, then more and more hardcore as the years passed. Duncan's Spurs teams reflected him and his coach: cerebral, classy, competitive in the cleanest way. Kobe's best quality these past three years has been that he's gotten Gasol, Bynum and Odom (three guys who, mentally, could have gone either way) to care about competing as much as he does. This is what great players do.
So for anyone to say that Rose -- who's stuck in fifth gear for every minute of every game, to the point that Chicago's biggest concern might be that he doesn't have an extra gear for the playoffs -- doesn't directly affect Chicago's defense is insane. Have you ever been to an NBA practice? Earlier this year, I went to an Oklahoma City practice and was stunned to see Durant and Westbrook going full-speed through every drill like it was Game 7 of the playoffs. I asked Scotty Brooks about it afterward; he smiled and said something like, "When your best players care that much, everything else falls into place." That's what happened in Chicago with Rose. He sets the tone day after day after day; everyone else eventually fell into place. When your best player cares that much, it's contagious.
B. Speaking of advanced metrics, if you're using them to make the case against Rose, I submit the following two lines:
Player A: 27.2 PPG, 10.1 RPG, 4.2 APG, 54% FG, 76% FT, 28.4 PER, 16.6 WS, 60% TS%, 1st-team All-Defense.
Player B: 29.2 PPG, 5.9 RPG, 3.8 APG, 48% FG, 81% FT, 26.3 PER, 17.1 WS, 55% TS%, 1st-team All-Defense.
Who was better? It's close, but you picked Player A, right? Well ... those were the combined numbers for Karl Malone and Michael Jordan during the 1997 and 1998 regular seasons. You just picked Malone. Thank you and please drive through.
Anyway, advanced metrics weaken Rose's MVP case but don't murder it. Unlike LeBron the past two years, he isn't a sure thing. That's fine. Just consider these other two points ...
• Rose carries his team's offense more than anyone else carries their team's offense. He's the Bulls' only player who can create his own shot, and he's their only player who can create shots for others. Night after night after night, he walked onto the court knowing that Chicago's entire offense hinged on how he played. His usage (32.4 percent) and assist (39.4 percent) rates tell some of the story; in crunch-time per 48 minutes, he's averaged the second-most field goal attempts, the eighth-most free throw attempts and the ninth-highest assists (nobody else made the top-15 for all three categories, much less the top-10). The dude does everything for Chicago offensively, a little like Iverson on the 2001 Sixers (the year he finished with the sixth-highest usage rate ever and Philly somehow made the Finals, anyway). In my opinion, when you're doing everything, you should get a little statistical slack. You might have to take one or two shots per half that you shouldn't take, just because nobody else will take them. In crunch-time, the degree of difficulty ratchets up because the other team knows it's up to you, and you alone. You have to account for these things. That's why I love basketball so much: it's objective and subjective.
• Rose keeping the Bulls in contention for three-plus months when Boozer and Noah missed significant time was the most impressive thing I witnessed this season. Their quest for a No. 1 seed should have derailed in November, when Boozer missed a brutal seven-game Western road swing (including Dallas, San Antonio, Phoenix and Los Angeles) plus games in Boston and Oklahoma City ... and yet, they emerged from a potential disaster at 9-6 (with Rose averaging a 28-8-5). Just when they were coming together, their defensive anchor (Noah) went down for two months ... Rose kept everything humming. (As a Celtics fan, I kept looking at the standings every morning thinking, "Jeez, they won't go away ... .") They finally had a full team when they were 35-14; they're 23-6 since. A one-seed. Phenomenal.
I will remember the 2010-11 season for LeBron and Wade, for Blake Griffin, for the dumb Celtics trade, and for how hard Derrick Rose played every night. He willed the Bulls to a No. 1 seed. Unfortunately, we don't have an advanced metric to quantify that specific achievement -- just a primitive, overrated statistic called "wins." I guess we'll have to make due. Derrick Rose, you're my 2010-11 MVP. http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2/story?page=simmons/110408&sportCat=nba
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Boston has been very mediocre since the Perkins trade. Loss by 23 to Miami after going 3-0 against them in earlier games this season. They'll likely end up 3rd in the East now.
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Boston might mess around and get swept (or beat in 5). if Shaq's playing, they can delay it a little, but I don't see them beating Miami.
Miami vs. Chicago for the ECF. then, the Heat's bench will be thoroughly exposed.
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On April 11 2011 07:23 Signet wrote: Boston has been very mediocre since the Perkins trade. Loss by 23 to Miami after going 3-0 against them in earlier games this season. They'll likely end up 3rd in the East now.
I don't really get it tho. They won nearly everything with Perkins being injured for 3 months.Maybe it's just cuz they are old and it's late in the season. Maybe morale is lower now that Perk is gone, but they figured out a way to win without perk early in the season.
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They aren't missing Perkins they missing Shaq. Shaq is the reason why they traded Perk they planning to make a run for Dwight Howard and Shaq "plans" on retiring after this 2 year contract. Boston probably trying to sell Jeff Green a talented player as Dwight's sidekick.
D Rose is MVP. As unfair this is with Haslem being out for 90% of the regular season and Mike Miller being out for the 1st w/e 30 games the Heat haven't lived up to the their potential. The Miami Heat team record struggles vs elite teams Lebron will not get the MVP. Dwight Howard started slow and really played at a MVP level maybe better then Rose the last couple of months. but the 4th seed in a conference won't win you the MVP. People taking all this BS about D Rose not being able to play Defense is a joke. I think Jabbi? posted some BR report its in page 153(i think) Now thats solid research on the topic of top defensive point guards.
Here is the URL Jibba posted http://bleacherreport.com/articles/656564-derrick-roses-dismal-defense-dismissing-disparaging-drivel
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On April 11 2011 07:25 FQD1911 wrote: Boston might mess around and get swept (or beat in 5). if Shaq's playing, they can delay it a little, but I don't see them beating Miami.
Miami vs. Chicago for the ECF. then, the Heat's bench will be thoroughly exposed.
A healthy Shaq will change things you think Lebron will throw the ball to Shaq? Shaq is still very strong inside.
If CHI meets MIA in the ECF I'm calling it here Miami will win.
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Why are people so high on Shaq? I've been thinking a lot about this, and Shaq isn't better than the 2010 playoff motivated Rasheed Wallace ... with whom the Celtics fell short in game 7. Rasheed Wallace fouled out in the end. Is Shaq going to collect fewer fouls? Step out against Gasol's turnaround jumper better than Rasheed?
Moreover, the Pierce, Allen and Garnett are a year older. Sure they're healthy and in shape and were playing somewhat more efficiently, but the 2011 Celtics without Perkins isn't better than the 2010 Celtics without Perkins. They also lost Tony Allen.
They won a lot without Perkins, but that's filling in a hole, usually with other starter minutes.
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Didn't Perkins play like 7 games for the Celtics this year? I'm pretty sure they weren't great with him playing too (4-3 record I think I've seen).
Celtics are foxing like they do each year. They'll crush souls during the Playoffs.
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Shaq won't be that much of a factor in the playoffs, look at how fast he got injured on the same day he came back. In a perfect scenario the celts will make the conference finals but most Likely shaq will be ineffective, it's going to depend on how much they use him in the first two rounds and him not getting injured, which is unlikely at this point. I can just see bynum and gasol abuse him already.
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On April 11 2011 10:47 RowdierBob wrote: Didn't Perkins play like 7 games for the Celtics this year? I'm pretty sure they weren't great with him playing too (4-3 record I think I've seen).
Celtics are foxing like they do each year. They'll crush souls during the Playoffs. That's a good point. According to Yahoo sports, he's played 12 games for the Celtics this season.
I don't know what it could be then. They've definitely struggled since the trade, could be a leadership/chemistry issue or perhaps just random slump?
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It's probably a real slump or them just not trying near the end of the regular season like most teams (lakers).
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boston vs knicks is way better drama than boston vs philly, so ill take vs the knicks :D even if it means no home court in the 2nd round, dont need it vs miami anyways.
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Last season I believe Cs were 50% win team after the all-star break. They aren't as motivated right now plus starting to rest before the playoffs. They sat J O'Neal previous game for no other reason than staying healthy. Game vs Miami was somewhat important but definitely more important for Miami, since they were 0-3 vs Celtics. Another factor is Rondo, if he has a bad game it's hard for them to win. He is known for preparing real well though and I have yet to see him dominated during a playoff series. As funny as it sounds people give Rondo too little credit for the team wins while those almost solely depend on how well he performs.
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Btw, where are you guys catching these live steams online? I want to get them prepared once the playoffs start.
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How can you see Bynum and Gasol abusing a injuried Shaq? like the Celtics will get that far without Shaq. They won't even make it out of the 2nd round. Shaq health is a key for the Celtics playoff run they got rid of Perkins because they thought Shaq will be fine. Celtics don't need homecourt advantage they need to just be healthy and they can make a serious playoff run. Like horse said last year the Celtics were a 500 team after the All Star break and the #4 seed and still almost won the finals.
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On April 11 2011 08:34 iDoMiNaTe2.0 wrote: [ A healthy Shaq will change things you think Lebron will throw the ball to Shaq? Shaq is still very strong inside.
If CHI meets MIA in the ECF I'm calling it here Miami will win.
lol ok. what evidence this year even shows this will happen? Miami played with signing Eddy Curry. EDDY F'N CURRY!!!!! c'mon now....
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On April 11 2011 14:09 iDoMiNaTe2.0 wrote: Like horse said last year the Celtics were a 500 team after the All Star break and the #4 seed and still almost won the finals. Two problems 1) that doesn't mean every .500 team after the All Star break will win the finals. 2) They didn't win the finals. They weren't good enough last year, and they are stagnating since last year.
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