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United States22883 Posts
On April 09 2011 13:17 slyboogie wrote:Show nested quote +On April 09 2011 12:46 BalliSLife wrote:
I'm surprised I wasn't flamed for saying iverson deserves to be in the HOF, I take it most of you guys agree? Yah, absolutely. Iverson had his flaws but I don't see how anyone can say he wasn't a HoFer. He practically defined the 3-5 transitional years of the NBA post-Jordan. Shaq did. No question. No debate.
@Jibba: Iverson was a defensive beast for a 4 years period 2001-2005. He fell off pretty hard after that but that 4 year stretch belongs in discussions with Payton.
Getting steals does not make you a good defender. In fact, AI is the prototypical example when showing why getting steals does not make you a good defender.
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Then....what...does it mean..
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how the fuck does getting steals not make you a good defender? if a team is in control of the ball you play defence till they turn the ball over, hence stealing the ball. If you're getting steals you're playing good defence......
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United States22883 Posts
Getting steals means you're getting steals.
It's possible to get them like Rondo, while still playing good man defense, but that's absolutely not what AI did. He aggressively played passing lanes which meant he was never really covering anyone. Getting 2.5 steals per game instead of 1 per game is not going to make up the difference when you allowed your man to consistently score or move you around the court.
It's the same as a cornerback who only goes for interceptions, instead of deflections and tackles, only a single interception has a much greater game impact than a single steal.
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AI took a lot of unnecessary risk just to try and get a steal leaving his team completely exposed.
Don't always be fooled by numbers like blocks/steals in determining how good a player is defensively. Most of the time its better to just stay in front of your player and put a hand up or in their face when they take a shot.
You see retards all the time jumping wildly in the air trying to block a 3pt shooter or leaving their man to play the passing lanes.
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On April 09 2011 13:54 Jibba wrote:
Getting steals means you're getting steals.
It's possible to get them like Rondo, while still playing good man defense, but that's absolutely not what AI did. He aggressively played passing lanes which meant he was never really covering anyone. Getting 2.5 steals per game instead of 1 per game is not going to make up the difference when you allowed your man to consistently score or move you around the court.
It's the same as a cornerback who only goes for interceptions, instead of deflections and tackles, only a single interception has a much greater game impact than a single steal.
hi asante samuel
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United States22883 Posts
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Golden State high tempo pace actually allows for more mistakes / possesions to happen so that isn't the same as AI when the 76ers played tough defense under Larry Brown and he also guarded much bigger players since he played SG.
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On April 09 2011 13:17 slyboogie wrote:Show nested quote +On April 09 2011 12:46 BalliSLife wrote:
I'm surprised I wasn't flamed for saying iverson deserves to be in the HOF, I take it most of you guys agree? Yah, absolutely. Iverson had his flaws but I don't see how anyone can say he wasn't a HoFer. He practically defined the 3-5 transitional years of the NBA post-Jordan. @Jibba: Iverson was a defensive beast for a 4 years period 2001-2005. He fell off pretty hard after that but that 4 year stretch belongs in discussions with Payton.
I am not an Iverson fan, but I think he is HoF worthy. The reason is that he did, in a more defensive era, what players are doing now en mass (due to rule changes).
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Iverson was a one of a kind player, although other than around the Shaq era he didn't make his team better (see Denver/Pistons).
When one of the stat heads said that Iverson was overrated, it caused a pretty big uproar though.
He was a ball hog, bad at defense, but he got to the rim, a lot. It would be impressive even if he weren't 5'10".
I'm not sure what constitutes a hall of famer. Jason Kidd's overall a better player than Iverson. Although MVPs and rings tend to give much more hall of fame weight - consider how Kobe would be seen if the Lakers didn't trip into the Gasol trade and were stuck in 2005-2006 mode for the rest of his career.
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On April 09 2011 13:17 slyboogie wrote:Show nested quote +On April 09 2011 12:46 BalliSLife wrote:
I'm surprised I wasn't flamed for saying iverson deserves to be in the HOF, I take it most of you guys agree? Yah, absolutely. Iverson had his flaws but I don't see how anyone can say he wasn't a HoFer. He practically defined the 3-5 transitional years of the NBA post-Jordan. @Jibba: Iverson was a defensive beast for a 4 years period 2001-2005. He fell off pretty hard after that but that 4 year stretch belongs in discussions with Payton.
Shaq and duncan imo were more definitive in that time period, iverson was just the flashy guy people liked to watch, and his d was no where near paytons in his prime. Maybe his d in 2004-5 was similar though to iversons then. Steals do not equal d and there has not been a star quality player in the same league as payton and jordan since then, and that includes kobe when he regularly has gotten scorched by other top 2s.
Also silly comment about jordan not trying in practice a page ago. Any interview with anyone who played with him will say the same speil about him being the ultimate try hard in every practice and even at things like pool.
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On April 09 2011 14:02 dazed wrote:
AI took a lot of unnecessary risk just to try and get a steal leaving his team completely exposed.
Don't always be fooled by numbers like blocks/steals in determining how good a player is defensively. Most of the time its better to just stay in front of your player and put a hand up or in their face when they take a shot.
You see retards all the time jumping wildly in the air trying to block a 3pt shooter or leaving their man to play the passing lanes.
To be fair to ai some of those years he had dikembe to back him up, and he just was to small to ever be a dominate defender. There are players that get steals and are great defenders, look at this year rondo and westbrook are both top 5 in steals and the best 2 pg's d side. But there are also those players that end up giving up easy baskets due to missing a risky steal, and iverson was more in that category.
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On April 09 2011 17:09 igotmyown wrote:
Iverson was a one of a kind player, although other than around the Shaq era he didn't make his team better (see Denver/Pistons).
When one of the stat heads said that Iverson was overrated, it caused a pretty big uproar though.
He was a ball hog, bad at defense, but he got to the rim, a lot. It would be impressive even if he weren't 5'10".
I'm not sure what constitutes a hall of famer. Jason Kidd's overall a better player than Iverson. Although MVPs and rings tend to give much more hall of fame weight - consider how Kobe would be seen if the Lakers didn't trip into the Gasol trade and were stuck in 2005-2006 mode for the rest of his career.
Even if kobe didn't get carried by shaq early and never got the gasol trade he would be a hof lock. He is still a good enough player to carry his team to the playoffs with good consitency, and malone/stockton would have been locks before their 2 finals appearances. Shit dominique wilkins made the hof.
The guy i think should be in is rodman for sure, one of the greatest rebounders and defenders to ever lace up shoes, 5 rings and a slew of records. In the slowest period of time in terms of possession and shots taken he had the best rebounding seasons since the 70s. Shit the unsung story of why the bulls crushed the sonics in that finals so bad was his d on kemp and the fact he had 11 offensive rebounds in a game 2x in the series.
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On April 09 2011 13:24 Jibba wrote:Show nested quote +On April 09 2011 13:17 slyboogie wrote:On April 09 2011 12:46 BalliSLife wrote:
I'm surprised I wasn't flamed for saying iverson deserves to be in the HOF, I take it most of you guys agree? Yah, absolutely. Iverson had his flaws but I don't see how anyone can say he wasn't a HoFer. He practically defined the 3-5 transitional years of the NBA post-Jordan. Shaq did. No question. No debate. Show nested quote +@Jibba: Iverson was a defensive beast for a 4 years period 2001-2005. He fell off pretty hard after that but that 4 year stretch belongs in discussions with Payton.
Getting steals does not make you a good defender. In fact, AI is the prototypical example when showing why getting steals does not make you a good defender.
I disagree on Shaq, he was not a definitive entity until he moved to Los Angeles. Iverson was an institution! I don't mean that he "made his team better" or "showed love for the game" or any of that mythical stuff. No, Iverson defined a style of/for the NBA; he had an irrepressible "blackness" to his game and off the court demeanor that some people hated, and some people loved. It doesn't matter if you liked him or didn't, I believe he was the post-Jordan icon of the NBA. I'm thinking about writing my dissertation on him.
As for his defense, his steals were secondary, tertiary even. I don't care that he got steals but I will say that they were the end result of defensive awareness and tarrying play against other point guards. I'm sure you remember him trying to jump passing lanes and doing guess work, and that is what I recall as well. However, defensive metrics have him as the best defensive point guard for about 3 years, and that data is aggregate of all plays, not just our eyes.
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On April 09 2011 17:51 bigjenk wrote:Show nested quote +On April 09 2011 17:09 igotmyown wrote:
Iverson was a one of a kind player, although other than around the Shaq era he didn't make his team better (see Denver/Pistons).
When one of the stat heads said that Iverson was overrated, it caused a pretty big uproar though.
He was a ball hog, bad at defense, but he got to the rim, a lot. It would be impressive even if he weren't 5'10".
I'm not sure what constitutes a hall of famer. Jason Kidd's overall a better player than Iverson. Although MVPs and rings tend to give much more hall of fame weight - consider how Kobe would be seen if the Lakers didn't trip into the Gasol trade and were stuck in 2005-2006 mode for the rest of his career. Even if kobe didn't get carried by shaq early and never got the gasol trade he would be a hof lock. He is still a good enough player to carry his team to the playoffs with good consitency, and malone/stockton would have been locks before their 2 finals appearances. Shit dominique wilkins made the hof. The guy i think should be in is rodman for sure, one of the greatest rebounders and defenders to ever lace up shoes, 5 rings and a slew of records. In the slowest period of time in terms of possession and shots taken he had the best rebounding seasons since the 70s. Shit the unsung story of why the bulls crushed the sonics in that finals so bad was his d on kemp and the fact he had 11 offensive rebounds in a game 2x in the series.
What's wrong with Dominique Wilkins? The Human Highlight Film? Winner of two dunk contests (against Jordan) during the apex of the dunk contests.
Overall, Wilkins's 26.0 scoring average ranked fourth in the NBA. He concluded the season with 24,019 career points, placing ninth on the NBA's all-time list.
That in itself isn't hall of fame defining, but there's a correlation.
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didn't watch lakers vs blazers, but besides the lakers poor shooting as a whole, looks like kobe shot them out of the game again.
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United States22883 Posts
On April 09 2011 18:10 slyboogie wrote:Show nested quote +On April 09 2011 13:24 Jibba wrote:On April 09 2011 13:17 slyboogie wrote:On April 09 2011 12:46 BalliSLife wrote:
I'm surprised I wasn't flamed for saying iverson deserves to be in the HOF, I take it most of you guys agree? Yah, absolutely. Iverson had his flaws but I don't see how anyone can say he wasn't a HoFer. He practically defined the 3-5 transitional years of the NBA post-Jordan. Shaq did. No question. No debate. @Jibba: Iverson was a defensive beast for a 4 years period 2001-2005. He fell off pretty hard after that but that 4 year stretch belongs in discussions with Payton.
Getting steals does not make you a good defender. In fact, AI is the prototypical example when showing why getting steals does not make you a good defender. I disagree on Shaq, he was not a definitive entity until he moved to Los Angeles. Iverson was an institution! I don't mean that he "made his team better" or "showed love for the game" or any of that mythical stuff. No, Iverson defined a style of/for the NBA; he had an irrepressible "blackness" to his game and off the court demeanor that some people hated, and some people loved. It doesn't matter if you liked him or didn't, I believe he was the post-Jordan icon of the NBA. I'm thinking about writing my dissertation on him. How was Iverson an "institution"? In the years following Jordan's retirement, Shaq was the force in the NBA. The best player on the best team putting up the most ridiculous playoff numbers in the modern era. And he was the one that was a household name, through marketing, not AI.
As for his defense, his steals were secondary, tertiary even. I don't care that he got steals but I will say that they were the end result of defensive awareness and tarrying play against other point guards. I'm sure you remember him trying to jump passing lanes and doing guess work, and that is what I recall as well. However, defensive metrics have him as the best defensive point guard for about 3 years, and that data is aggregate of all plays, not just our eyes. What? Basketball metrics are generally bullshit, and even among them I don't think there are any that put him up there. There is simply no way he was the best defensive point guard at any point during his career, he wasn't even the best defensive PG on his team.
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That's partially due to his size though. But overall wouldn't his scoring and some steals compensate for his d?
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United States22883 Posts
I'm not saying he wasn't a great player or even a HoF worthy player. I'm just saying he was bad at defense.
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AI was the most popular player in the NBA after Jordan.
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EPT
