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On March 25 2011 03:09 slyboogie wrote:Show nested quote +On March 24 2011 21:14 iDoMiNaTe2.0 wrote:Not the same Orlando was like the 8th seed yeah of course he carried the team, but its like when Kobe put up 35 ppg he didn't win MVP. Rose is the MVP this year I'm the biggest Miami Heat fan, but even I can see this. It's exactly the same thing. If you had given T-Mac: 39 games of Joakim Noah, 47 games of Carlos Boozer and 68 games of Taj Gibson, he would have won 53-55 games. There is nothing magical about Derrick Rose, his teammates are good.
Your losing credibility with every post you make like this...
I hope I am able to watch a Thunder game soon, I want to see how perkins is fitting in even though he hasn't fully found his groove in there yet. He is like one of those guys you hate if he goes against your team, but love if he is on your team.
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What happened to the love a few posts back =(
I don't think you've actually looked at the roster. The link is there and I think you have to agree that the 3 players I listed are much better than any of McGrady's teammates from that year. They won 42 games, I think that those three players are worth around 10-15 wins at that number of games. If you want to get at my credibility, I guess that's fine, but you haven't told me why I'm wrong. Derrick Rose's teammates are good.
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On March 24 2011 21:35 MilesTeg wrote:Show nested quote +On March 24 2011 11:09 slyboogie wrote:
Vince Carter's cousin, Tracy McGrady was probably the most physically talented player of his generation at the wing spots. He was 6'8'' with a 7'2'' wingspan, 40 inch vert, fantastic range on his jumper, strong vision, ankle breaking cross over and, obviously, "dunkability." Unfortunately, injuries, bad luck and "lack of focus" (I don't totally buy this one,) hurt his legacy.
Vince Carter might actually make the Hall of Fame, so yeah...weird player. I think he's always been insanely overrated. He used to take the stupidest shots, made a living with his off screen jumpers, which weren't actually that good. I guess it's the kind of player that's good only in really tough defensive games, where it's so hard to score that you might think "oh well might as well jack up a contested fadeway 3". To be fair I think most if not all star wing players are ridiculously overrated, not just him.
I would disagree and say that star point guards are routinely overrated, while wing players are more consistent and more difficult to find.
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I don't think anyone is denying that T Mac team wasn't as good as the current Bulls roster, but when you add 3 better players he wouldn't of averaged 32 ppg . The Bulls have the 2nd best record in the league and 1st in the eastern conf. most importantly imo the bulls haven't struggle like my miami heat vs the top teams in the NBA they have beaten good teams. The reasons why I don't think lebron will get it this year is b/c
1) They might finish 3rd in Eastern Conference
2) The 2 previous seasons where he had won the MVP the cavs had the best record in the NBA and I think this hurts him cause Miami won't have a better record then the last year Cavs
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The Heat also have been dominant on the road, won 21 out of 22, had the largest PD in the league for most of the year and are top 5 in both Offense and Defense.
So how is that not as credible than what the Bulls have done? The media spins a lot of things but do realize Chicago has had a lot of luck thrown their way also.
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On March 25 2011 04:03 slyboogie wrote:
What happened to the love a few posts back =(
I don't think you've actually looked at the roster. The link is there and I think you have to agree that the 3 players I listed are much better than any of McGrady's teammates from that year. They won 42 games, I think that those three players are worth around 10-15 wins at that number of games. If you want to get at my credibility, I guess that's fine, but you haven't told me why I'm wrong. Derrick Rose's teammates are good.
Haha I still love you man, I just think you need to give Rose a little more credit because he at least belongs in the discussion for MVP. I am not saying he should win it but the man should be in it. And I did answer you man a few pages back: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=163908¤tpage=133#2649
But I mean the MVP is an opinion so I am not opposed to you thinking someone else should win it but rather you being so against him winning it almost to the point of it being biased.
PS: plus I think we are the only 2 LA guys regularly posting in here <3
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United States4471 Posts
On March 25 2011 05:46 MassHysteria wrote:PS: plus I think we are the only 2 LA guys regularly posting in here <3
False
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:O apologies cyric! I should have known from the wisdom in your posts 
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Whatever happened to Xeris and his blind Lakers (Kobe) love? I miss him.
Come back Xeris!
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Not hating on Xeris but HonestTea #1 nba thread poster.
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On March 25 2011 05:11 Ace wrote:
The Heat also have been dominant on the road, won 21 out of 22, had the largest PD in the league for most of the year and are top 5 in both Offense and Defense.
So how is that not as credible than what the Bulls have done? The media spins a lot of things but do realize Chicago has had a lot of luck thrown their way also.
How so?
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On March 25 2011 05:46 MassHysteria wrote:Show nested quote +On March 25 2011 04:03 slyboogie wrote:
What happened to the love a few posts back =(
I don't think you've actually looked at the roster. The link is there and I think you have to agree that the 3 players I listed are much better than any of McGrady's teammates from that year. They won 42 games, I think that those three players are worth around 10-15 wins at that number of games. If you want to get at my credibility, I guess that's fine, but you haven't told me why I'm wrong. Derrick Rose's teammates are good. Haha I still love you man, I just think you need to give Rose a little more credit because he at least belongs in the discussion for MVP. I am not saying he should win it but the man should be in it. And I did answer you man a few pages back: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=163908¤tpage=133#2649 But I mean the MVP is an opinion so I am not opposed to you thinking someone else should win it but rather you being so against him winning it almost to the point of it being biased. PS: plus I think we are the only 2 LA guys regularly posting in here <3
I admit I've been probably overly harsh on D-Rose. He's a really great player and SHOULD be in the conversation. I still don't think he should win but you're right - it is an opinion issue. What I meant to say was that, super talented wing players often carry their teams to wins due to sheer scoring ability, though they rarely break through and win championships on their own.
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On March 25 2011 11:47 sixghost wrote:Show nested quote +On March 25 2011 05:11 Ace wrote:
The Heat also have been dominant on the road, won 21 out of 22, had the largest PD in the league for most of the year and are top 5 in both Offense and Defense.
So how is that not as credible than what the Bulls have done? The media spins a lot of things but do realize Chicago has had a lot of luck thrown their way also. How so?
1.) When Boozer and Noah both went down for major time it was during a long home stretch for Chicago and a soft part of their schedule. Part of it has to due with their brutal opening schedule but it's still the result: Chicago peaked at the perfect time.
Their schedule from December - January:
http://www.nba.com/bulls/schedule/
vs good teams:
home loss to Orlando
road loss to Boston
home win vs OKC
home win vs LA
home win vs Boston (no KG)
home win vs Miami (no Lebron, Bosh leaves 4th quarter)
road win vs Memphis (The game where Luol Deng was officially back)
home win vs Dallas
home win vs Orlando
During the home heavy stretch of the 9 games vs Playoff teams 2 were at the perfect timing with both being at home. This doesn't diminish their accomplishments at all but do realize Chicago's injury situation isn't as bad as people make it out to be. All good teams go on massive winning streaks but to treat Chicago as if it's some amazing thing to do without Noah/Boozer vs a not so intimidating schedule is ludicrous.
2.) Luol Deng came back to life
Early in the year I was discussing this with FQD - and I mean first 2 weeks of the season. Both of us said Chicago would be contenders. However instead of saying Derrick Rose was the most important piece like he did I said Luol Deng and Boozer are. More so Deng because his play was so inconsistent but his potential was there. After 2 years of playing like little Deng he came back to his senses and started locking EVERYONE down. Everyone. Look at Rose's game logs and you'll see some truly abysmal shooting nights but that's OK for them to win- he can get away with it when he's backed by a top ranked defense vs most of the league. Deng and that defensive scheme are the real reasons the Bulls were winning all those games.
3.) The East bottomed out.
Instead of Milwaukee getting healthy, Indiana becoming a monster in 1 year, Charlotte being relevant, the Knicks being a powerhouse, and Philly gelling immediately good all 4 ran into various troubles. In the early part of the year all 4 were absolutely dreadful for various reasons. These are the mid-tier teams of the East by the way.
Like I've said before there is always a little circumstance involved in a season. But due to all of these overwhelming factors falling in place and the fact that the Bulls bench is great - which no one wants to admit - they are winning. They are a "surprise" team only to those who don't know much about basketball. Everyone else, especially if you've been betting on games, saw this coming a mile away.
Media spin does a lot to people's perceptions and that's why you should watch as many games as you can and read the advanced stats sheets. In 2-3 years when Derrick Rose and the Bulls are even better do you know what's going to happen? The media will slowly but surely start trashing them. They do it to every team. It's how they spin public perception and create dumb stuff to write about. Just be smart enough to look through the bullshit and do your own research. You'll be amazed at how many statistics and stories that are printed are flat out wrong.
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On March 25 2011 05:11 Ace wrote:
The Heat also have been dominant on the road, won 21 out of 22, had the largest PD in the league for most of the year and are top 5 in both Offense and Defense.
So how is that not as credible than what the Bulls have done? The media spins a lot of things but do realize Chicago has had a lot of luck thrown their way also.
Everyone spins a lot of things like you doing now the 21 out of 22 games they won was in their soft part of sche. they played only 6 teams above 500. and went 1-1 vs the top teams DAL loss at home and LAL win on the road. The largest PD one of most worthless stats doesn't matter if you win by 1 or 100 its still a win or a loss. A major reason why they had the largest PD is when they play bad teams they do everything right. The Heat aren't going to be playing CHA WAS in the 2nd round of playoffs its going to be one of elite 3 from theEast and BOS/CHI/ORL total record is 2-8.
Miami looks great on paper, but they have a serious problem with teams that execute for the full 48 mins. Miami has one game left vs the new look celts @ bos. Miami has been in all the games vs top teams (i forgot bout SA) with just pure talent im really concern about Miami finishing games in close games vs good defense CHI/BOS/Dwight Howard, They take awful shots at the end of games they force it 80% of the time Lebron / D Wade barely pass the ball the open man when it comes to the end of the game. Need a example watch the last game vs the Bulls that was such a low % shot trying to go over noah? was he hoping to get bailed by the ref? then D wade gets the rebound he loses track of the time and forces a spin around fade away i would of seen Lebron to just step back and pull up for a 18 foot j. I still believe Miami can win this year because they are my favorite coming from the east I think they can beat the Bulls even tho they are 0-3 Miami lost those games instead of getting beat.
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Do you want me to go through the game logs and and stats to prove you wrong or are you going to post some proof?
PD is one of the best stats for showing a team's strength relative to everyone else. It does matter if you win by 1 or more realistically 12-13. PD is one of the best indicators to how much your bench impacts your chances of winning or how much your stars have to carry the load. All of the top teams in the league have high PD. No one stat alone can tell you how good a team is but PD is a very good indicator.
Lebron and D.Wade don't take awful shots. There has been ONE awful shot taken by Miami during crunch time in their losses during that 5 game streak - Lebron's 3 pointer. Can you show any other bad shots they have taken?
Lebron and Wade pass the ball a lot to open teammates - did you miss the media backlash Lebron received in that game on the road in OKC when he passed it to Eddie House who hit the game winning 3 pointer?
Lebron's drive on Noah wasn't a low % attempt - it was Noah being a great defender. The possession didn't break down, Lebron got to his spot and Noah made a great contest. So seriously what nonsense are you spouting? Lebron "hoping" to get bailed by the ref? D.Wade losing track of time? Really? You mean when he caught the rebound and tried to get a good look at the basket with no time that is losing track of time?
Miami doesn't have a "serious problem with teams that execute for the full 48 minutes". Thats bullshit. There has been ONE team - ONE - that has dominated Miami all season - Boston. No one else. Their losses to Chicago? A combined 8 points. All 3 games came down to single possessions.
If their is a statistic that is meaningless it's record vs top teams being taken too seriously. If you lose vs good teams in close games and blowout everyone else - guess what? You're still a contender. Miami's record in 2005-2006 vs the elite teams in the league? 4-16.
Seriously - educate yourself more on the game. I find it amazing that you notice all of these things that didn't happen the way you think they did during the end of that game. You sound like a media puppet. If the Bulls lost would you be in here talking about how Derrick Rose shot his team out of the game and how Wade locked him down at the end? Something tells me you would.
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what do you mean by "dominating?" because as i recall those Bos-Mia games, they were all within 1 possession w/ a minute to go in the 4th. the Heat would miss a shot and it turned into a FT game...that's not exactly "domination." but, I agree; the Heat aren't as terrible as people make them out to be.
that bench has serious issues though (especially when you compare it to Boston & Chicago). still a 2nd round exit, but they'll def. make it a series.
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The first game was a domination.
The second game was closer but Miami was never in control of the game.
side note: Chicago used to have a PD around 1.0 something mid-season and now it's #1 in the league. Considering the Bulls have been flat out raping everyone how is PD a useless stat?
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If you watch the Miami heat in the 4th quarter in close games they ditch their offense and give the ball to Lebron and D Wade and tell them do what you do. While that isn't a bad plan they tend to take bad shots during that period I'm not going to go thru youtube and look for bad shots they take in everygame late game. One that comes to the top of my head which was kinda recently was vs the Knicks Lebron tried to go over Melo once Lebron crossed the free hrow line everyone knew he was taking it to the hoop that's why Amari was able to come over and block the shot
You talking about the OKC game where Mike Miller gave a great effort to grab the rebound kicked out to Lebron after he missed a 3 and kick it to a wide open elbow 3? Who cares it's one game where Mike Miller was the real hero cause he went up vs all of OKC Big men and grab the board. I'm talking about you got one possesion vs the Bulls he took it on Noah he had a wide open man in the corner. About 1 or 2 possesions before if my memory is correct D Rose made that pass to Deng? Not sure whoever hits the 3. If your such a basketball known it all you know taking it to the rim as your last possesion even if you get foul its going to be a 50/50 chance the ref blows the whistle. Kobe I'm sure everyone can agree he's the best closer in the league what's the last time he hit a real game winning REAL lay up no floaters. Lebron has a good mid range game do something like Pierce does give him the Ball at the Elbow and let him do a step back like he did vs GS years ago and hit the shot as gifted as Lebron is once he inside the 3 PT line defenders are sneaking in to deny the rim.
Lebron Drive how can you NOT say thats a low % shot Lebron once again with all the phyiscal tools is still 6'8'' Noah is 7 2 sorry but are you stupid? How can that not be a low % get real even with Lebron great wingspan Noah still has a longer wingspan.
The D Wade spin around shot I'm not saying that's a bad shot, because he was forced into that position, but he had 2 seconds after he shot the ball i can't blame him he did loss track of time, b/c he didn't have vision of the clock nothing wrong with.
If you watched the games vs Bos Miami always had 1 quarter that costed them the game 1st game of season was the 1st half / 2nd game 2nd quarter I believe / Last meeting 3rd quarter
Miami had 10+ lead in 2 games vs The Bulls
The Game where you saying Lebron missing and Bosh was out they were down by what 8? then D Wade hit 3 3s in like the final minute if you watch the last 3 he hit if you saying Chicago is lucky then what is Wade?
I said Miami is still my favorite from the East I'm not staying they aren't a contender I actually said they can beat the Bulls cause they lost those games more then getting beat Chicago just executed better at the end of the games.
PD doesn't matter cause you don't play the same level of team everynight I don't see what so hard to understand about that. Wouldn't you say there's a difference between WAS and CHI?
To be honest I think the real problem here is you think you know it all and when I say what I think you get your feelings hurt like Honestly your going by team stats is Miami a good off/def team yeah they are ranked high in the league, but it's clear that they struggle vs good defensive minded teams like the Bulls / Celtics and I think the Heat can beat anyone from the West THE problem is they need to get thru Celtics and Bulls i mean what don't you understand? i'm not talking about the heat in games vs average teams. I don't understand how you don't realize that the heat gave the Bulls 2 games because lack of ball movement / and poor iso shots I mean where is your PD vs the Bulls and Celtics PD doesn't matter like i said you don't play the same quality of team as the Bulls and Celtics everynight.
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On March 25 2011 23:36 Ace wrote:
The first game was a domination.
The second game was closer but Miami was never in control of the game.
side note: Chicago used to have a PD around 1.0 something mid-season and now it's #1 in the league. Considering the Bulls have been flat out raping everyone how is PD a useless stat?
the first game heat came back to cut it within like 3 like what are you talking about.
Lol the Raptors? and who esle they beat by 30 the Hawks? come on man geek stop looking at numbers PD ya it might better how if u make the playoffs or not but at in the playoffs it matters how you match up with a team
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I haven't posted in this thread at all compared to last years. I need to get on it.
If Miami had a capable bench at all or even a capable big man(a real post player ballhawk) I think a majority of their troubles would dissipate. I'm not even saying they need both just one or the other. Right now I can see them getting bounced in the 2nd round by the Celtics and that really coming down to Doc being a much much better coach.
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EPT
