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slyboogie
United States3423 Posts
On October 07 2011 12:33 deth2munkies wrote: My version isn't quite as controlling and involves reanimating Praetors  Boo. I hope Elesh Norn is the only Praetor you're talking about. From what I've seen and played against, Jin-Gitaxis is just asking for trouble and Sheoldred is a little underwhelming - even if she sticks. | ||
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Judicator
United States7270 Posts
On October 07 2011 12:33 deth2munkies wrote: I'd cut down on the black over the white, just either cut the Grave Titan for another Sun Titan or something. Day is too important against other Solar Flare decks and if werewolves becomes a deck, it will definitely be necessary for it too. Sun Titan and Gideon are also more important than Grave Titan. My version isn't quite as controlling and involves reanimating Praetors .....what? Why would I need to cut black to make the mana base for a 6 cmc card that I may or may not need to cast to win? How is Day important against other Solar Flare decks? Gideon is a joke considering you are in Black (yes he already lost his spot in my sideboard). Werewolves isn't a hard match up in any case, unless someone can brew up a BUG Mayor control deck. The aggro version is just plain ass. | ||
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deth2munkies
United States4051 Posts
On October 07 2011 12:49 slyboogie wrote: Boo. I hope Elesh Norn is the only Praetor you're talking about. From what I've seen and played against, Jin-Gitaxis is just asking for trouble and Sheoldred is a little underwhelming - even if she sticks. I have a Jin-Gitaxis in there for the lulz, 2 copies of Sheoldred, and Elesh Norn, as well as 2 Grave Titans. Apart from that it's just countermagic, card draw, and stuff that helps you survive (singleton timely, GFTT, and Day). I experimented with the flashback day but it's really underwhelming against nearly every deck. | ||
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slyboogie
United States3423 Posts
On October 07 2011 13:43 deth2munkies wrote: I have a Jin-Gitaxis in there for the lulz, 2 copies of Sheoldred, and Elesh Norn, as well as 2 Grave Titans. Apart from that it's just countermagic, card draw, and stuff that helps you survive (singleton timely, GFTT, and Day). I experimented with the flashback day but it's really underwhelming against nearly every deck. Hmmm, that seems Reanimator-y(or -ish) Why don't you just go for broke and throw in a Brightsteel Colossus or a Vorinclex. Vorinclex is probably funnier - and he'll help you cast that Jin-Gitaxis in your hand! But really, how does Sheoldred play for you? She never seems to do enough and, I'd say, Elesh Norn(and even Grave/Sun Titan) is a much more powerful target for Unburial Rites. I do get Jin for lulz, though. Many lulz on that one. On October 07 2011 12:51 Judicator wrote: How is Day important against other Solar Flare decks? Gideon is a joke considering you are in Black (yes he already lost his spot in my sideboard). Wow. Out of the SB altogether? What took his slot? | ||
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deth2munkies
United States4051 Posts
On October 07 2011 14:18 slyboogie wrote: Hmmm, that seems Reanimator-y(or -ish) Why don't you just go for broke and throw in a Brightsteel Colossus or a Vorinclex. Vorinclex is probably funnier - and he'll help you cast that Jin-Gitaxis in your hand! But really, how does Sheoldred play for you? She never seems to do enough and, I'd say, Elesh Norn(and even Grave/Sun Titan) is a much more powerful target for Unburial Rites. I do get Jin for lulz, though. Many lulz on that one. Wow. Out of the SB altogether? What took his slot? I dunno, I can't get my goddamn lilianas. I bought half a box (friend and I split it) and have done both prerelease, release, and 2 drafts and never opened a liliana or snapcaster, or garruk (keeping with the theme of me never ever opening a planeswalker in my entire magic career). They cost a ridiculous amount and no one will trade for them either. It's just really frustrating to have the entire deck bar 1 card built... | ||
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bumatlarge
United States4567 Posts
+ Show Spoiler + 2x Accorder's Shield 4x Darksteel Axe 2x Flayer Husk 2x Inquisitor's Flail 3x Mox Opal 4x Silver-Inlaid Dagger 2x Sword of War and Peace 18x Plains 4x Auriok Edgewright 4x Champion of the Parish 3x Mirran Crusader 4x Puresteel Paladin 4x Dispatch 3x Oblivion Ring 1x Gideon Jura Sideboard 4x Timely Reinforcements 2x Spellskite 2x Revoke Existence 2x Day of Judgment 3x Divine Offering 2x Surgical Extraction Flail + Dagger + Doublestrike = It's actually fairly consistent by turn 4-6, and a nut draw against an empty board lets an auriok/mirran swing for 20 on turn 4. It's actually fairly nice that puresteel draws so much hate out of peoples hands that I can rely on my real damage to be safe on the field. Not sure if it's completely outclassed by tempered steel, but it definitely wins in the longevity department. It holds its own against TS and even the stormkirk no-balls in RDW. Need flyers though, not sure if inkmoth would be good here, though throwing a flail and two axes on the moth for a 1hko sounds appealing. | ||
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Cel.erity
United States4890 Posts
On October 07 2011 14:18 slyboogie wrote: Hmmm, that seems Reanimator-y(or -ish) Why don't you just go for broke and throw in a Brightsteel Colossus or a Vorinclex. Vorinclex is probably funnier - and he'll help you cast that Jin-Gitaxis in your hand! But really, how does Sheoldred play for you? She never seems to do enough and, I'd say, Elesh Norn(and even Grave/Sun Titan) is a much more powerful target for Unburial Rites. I do get Jin for lulz, though. Many lulz on that one. Wow. Out of the SB altogether? What took his slot? I don't even like Gideon in this format. He's good when you can back him up with board pressure and sworded hawks, but if you're just playing nothing but removal, Timely is usually a lot better at stabilizing. As a planeswalker, Lilliana is more efficient. And if you're already on an active Sphinx/Titan/Elesh, what do you need Gideon for? | ||
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Judicator
United States7270 Posts
On October 07 2011 14:18 slyboogie wrote: Hmmm, that seems Reanimator-y(or -ish) Why don't you just go for broke and throw in a Brightsteel Colossus or a Vorinclex. Vorinclex is probably funnier - and he'll help you cast that Jin-Gitaxis in your hand! But really, how does Sheoldred play for you? She never seems to do enough and, I'd say, Elesh Norn(and even Grave/Sun Titan) is a much more powerful target for Unburial Rites. I do get Jin for lulz, though. Many lulz on that one. Wow. Out of the SB altogether? What took his slot? BSC can't be reanimated period. And Gideon lost his slot to a Doom Blade. Gideon just isn't good in any of the control decks right now. Would you rather turn 5 Gideon or turn 3 Liliana-Turn 4 Alchemy-Turn 5 Unburial? Don't bring up UW, that deck is like free for RDW and Solar Flare. Timely Reinforcements is like a free timewalk with Hero of Oxida Ridge. | ||
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slyboogie
United States3423 Posts
You can't compare Gideon to Liliana or Unburial Rites Or Forbidden Alchemy. You have to weigh his utility and value to that Doomblade. That's about it. So if cheap instant speed removal serves better than it serves better. I'm just surprised Gideon can't make the cut in Solar Flare over one more Doom Blade. | ||
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Judicator
United States7270 Posts
His utility and value is 0 in a Solar Flare deck. Protecting my life points for 1 turn on turn 5 doesn't do much against any of the aggro decks....when turn 4 they could cast...either Heroes, Koth, flashblack Unburial, Pod away their creature, O-ring...or on turn 5 they could cast...any of the previous plus the play a sword+equip a sword. In either case, Gideon sucks. And yes I can compare those three cards simply based on their relative worth in a Solar Flare deck, of which Gideon is pointless. So far I see him only worth something an W/x aggro/mid-range deck. | ||
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dignity
Canada908 Posts
Another thing I have been stumped on is how to deal with revoke existence when you are playing R/G and trying to protect a key artifact. Short of running apostle's blessings I can't come up with anything. Edit: Figured it out. Spellskite. | ||
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slyboogie
United States3423 Posts
On October 07 2011 23:36 Judicator wrote: That was a pre-emptive don't bring up UW control. His utility and value is 0 in a Solar Flare deck. Protecting my life points for 1 turn on turn 5 doesn't do much against any of the aggro decks....when turn 4 they could cast...either Heroes, Koth, flashblack Unburial, Pod away their creature, O-ring...or on turn 5 they could cast...any of the previous plus the play a sword+equip a sword. In either case, Gideon sucks. And yes I can compare those three cards simply based on their relative worth in a Solar Flare deck, of which Gideon is pointless. So far I see him only worth something an W/x aggro/mid-range deck. No you can't. Well, you can, but it's a meaningless exercise. It's like looking at old Caw-Blade and saying "you know, instead of Squadron Hawks, we should use Student of Warfare." Is Student of Warfare a terrible card in and of itself? No, I don't think anyone would say that. But it isn't the core of Caw-Blade. The core of Caw-Blade is Squadron Hawks and Swords. Here we can enter a discussion of which card was more important or which card was more valuable or which card was more powerful or if those things are even different. But the point is that those cards are those cards. Every other card in the deck was meant to protect, enable or empower those cards. The core of Solar Flare is Unburial Rites and Forbidden Alchemy. Gideon can never replace what those two cards do. That isn't his function, so it's not meaningful to say that those cards are better in this deck. Everything you explained holds true for Liliana as well. Turn 4 Hero of Oxid Ridge? Turn 4 O-Ring? Turn 4 Pod? Turn 4 Equip? But Liliana has a function that many other cards don't have. She can give you a strong discard opportunity or she can cause your opponent to sacrifice a creature AND she has upside in the form of a never reached ultimate. Is 1 Doomblade better than 1 Gideon in Solarflare against the decks it has to face? You said yes. I'm surprised. So there we go. | ||
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Judicator
United States7270 Posts
On October 08 2011 03:53 slyboogie wrote: No you can't. Well, you can, but it's a meaningless exercise. It's like looking at old Caw-Blade and saying "you know, instead of Squadron Hawks, we should use Student of Warfare." Is Student of Warfare a terrible card in and of itself? No, I don't think anyone would say that. But it isn't the core of Caw-Blade. The core of Caw-Blade is Squadron Hawks and Swords. Here we can enter a discussion of which card was more important or which card was more valuable or which card was more powerful or if those things are even different. But the point is that those cards are those cards. Every other card in the deck was meant to protect, enable or empower those cards. The core of Solar Flare is Unburial Rites and Forbidden Alchemy. Gideon can never replace what those two cards do. That isn't his function, so it's not meaningful to say that those cards are better in this deck. Everything you explained holds true for Liliana as well. Turn 4 Hero of Oxid Ridge? Turn 4 O-Ring? Turn 4 Pod? Turn 4 Equip? But Liliana has a function that many other cards don't have. She can give you a strong discard opportunity or she can cause your opponent to sacrifice a creature AND she has upside in the form of a never reached ultimate. Is 1 Doomblade better than 1 Gideon in Solarflare against the decks it has to face? You said yes. I'm surprised. So there we go. No, I think you are comparing the cards in a vacuum or rather neither of us are comparing them in a vacuum. I am comparing them based on how well they fulfill what their intended role in the deck and that is far from a meaningless enterprise. Your comparison with Rites and Alchemy is irrelevant to my assessment of Gideon because there are 0 cards that fulfill what Rites and Alchemy does. (Edit: Don't bring up Ponder, every time I see someone play that card in SF, I just laugh, because I know it's one less counterspell/removal spell that I need to worry about). Also, everything I have said about Gideon does not apply to Liliana, rather it's FAR from it. In any of the cases, Liliana would have interacted or will interact with the opponent already/soon, Gideon does not have that guarantee. I also think you are overlooking the importance of tempo and what Liliana actually offers in terms of that on turn 3 rather than turn 5. You are also underestimating the importance of those turn 4 plays mean when you turn 3 Liliana versus turn 5 Gideon. As for Nihil Spellbomb, just laugh at it. If you know how to play a Solar Flare deck then you should realize that Unburial Rites is just another threat, rather than your only threat. Same goes for things in your graveyard, the flashback is an important feature, but hardly the only feature. Every time someone plays Surgical Extraction/Spellbomb/Memorcide against me, I just laugh because I know the match is like now 7-3 in my favor. | ||
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slyboogie
United States3423 Posts
You gave an example earlier of "would you rather t3 Liliana, t4 Forbidden, t5 Unburial or t5 Gideon." I think that that's irrelevant to Gideon value, or lack thereof. The question is this: once you've executed this plan, you are, usually, on the verge of victory. In your hand is a Gideon Jura. How often do you wish that that Gideon Jura was Doom Blade(or Go For the Throat or Disperse or Dissipate or whatever?) Is it 10 times out of 10? Is it 9 or 7? I'm just surprised that it's such a high number that Gideon does so little. Surprise doesn't mean disbelief - it just means surprise. | ||
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Judicator
United States7270 Posts
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slyboogie
United States3423 Posts
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MCMcEmcee
United States1609 Posts
i'll be going to one in san antonio, maybe i'll see some of you there | ||
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SUSUGAM
United States177 Posts
dunno if it has been mentioned in this thread, but it's worth checking out imo | ||
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Shotcoder
United States2316 Posts
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deth2munkies
United States4051 Posts
On October 08 2011 20:27 MCMcEmcee wrote: anybody ptq-ing today i'll be going to one in san antonio, maybe i'll see some of you there Wat, there's one in San Antonio? I cancelled my plans to go there this weekend, now I'm unhappy. Evidently states is held at the shop that I frequent, so at least that'll be fun. I do fully intend to go to GP Austin, though. I've been brushing up on my sealed and, so long as my deck decides to cooperate, I think I might be able to do decently | ||
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