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TL Chess Match - Page 23

Forum Index > General Games
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jfazz
Profile Joined September 2009
Australia672 Posts
November 04 2009 21:10 GMT
#441
@ Zozma;
+ Show Spoiler +
In line a), the move 15. d5 is of a somewhat limited value for white. Firstly, he souces of counterplay are now extremely limited, and his c4-pawn is weak forever. I would meat 15. d5 with:
15...Qg4!? with the intention of generating an attack on the white king AND pressuring the e4 pawn (and thus indirectly reinvigorating the attack upon the c4 pawn, due the having the same piece guarding them).

Now;
16. f3 Qg6 17. Bb2 Nh5 18. Kh1 f5 19. Qd3 fxe4 20. fxe4 Rad8 with yeah, a pretty even middle game, but a better endgame for Black; in an endgame, white will have weaknesses on c4, c3 and e4. Black's only weakness is d6, which white cannot access.

There are perhaps even better moves for Black, but that endgame looks very hard for white to hold
Victory needs no explanation, defeat allows none
jfazz
Profile Joined September 2009
Australia672 Posts
November 04 2009 21:14 GMT
#442
actually, you can more or less force the aove line to continue:
+ Show Spoiler +
21. Rbe1 Qg5 22. Rxf8+ Rxf8 23. Rf1 Rxf1+ 24. Nxf1 Qg4 25. h4 Nf6 26. Kg2 Qd7 27. Ne3 Qxa4 28. Kg1 Qd7 And black has a strategically won game
Victory needs no explanation, defeat allows none
TanGeng
Profile Blog Joined January 2009
Sanya12364 Posts
November 05 2009 00:30 GMT
#443
On November 05 2009 05:57 Alventenie wrote:
I am not playing the current game, but on vekzel's post of others offering analysis, I'd like to offer some (even if not the best or most common).

+ Show Spoiler +
I know alot of you are pushing the Bxg2, but what about 11. ...d5! 12. cxd5 Bxd5 13. Bxd5 Nxd5 means he has to respond by Qc2, Bb2, or Ne4 (which you could ...f5 to attack the knight, making the fork still happen) to protect the fork from the Nxc3.

If he does 12. c5 respond with ...Ne4 to make him defend the pawn (with 13. Nxe4 dxe4), or trade his last knight with a strong black pawn on e4. Can follow up with small pawn trades of 14. cxb3 cxb3 15. f3 possible, but you could trade pawns there or counter with 15. ...f5 16. fxe4 fxe4 17. rxf8 qxf8 for some even trades and weakening his king side while bringing your queen to an open file.

While i think Bxg2 is a good move, I think ...d5 could be a nice move as well.

edit: changed certain move numbers as i missed counted



+ Show Spoiler +
Why even bother moving c pawn? Black can't take on c4. But should white take on c4 black should respond with exd5 in which case we have equality. Against 12... Bxd5?!, White has 13. e4!

Now the white knight on d2 is beautifully positioned and white has Ba3 lines for his dark squared bishop.
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Vekzel
Profile Blog Joined September 2009
Poland142 Posts
November 06 2009 06:33 GMT
#444
BUMP. Go Guys, Move Has Been MADE.
#1 Stork Fan II RET FIGHTING!!! II Nal_rA, Calm, UpMaGiC: GL 2U! II sAviOr: recover PLZ!
O-ops
Profile Joined February 2009
United States4236 Posts
November 06 2009 06:42 GMT
#445
I vote d7d5

+ Show Spoiler +
I really don't like white's prospect of playing e2e4 and then f2f4 here.
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Athos
Profile Blog Joined February 2008
United States2484 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-11-06 07:04:49
November 06 2009 06:52 GMT
#446
I vote QD7


+ Show Spoiler +
Threatens the A4 pawn and allows a potential tempo gain. If anybody sees can explain a better move I'll probably change my vote lol. I'm kinda an impatient player, and I tend to miss a lot of waiting, building moves.
Malinor
Profile Joined November 2008
Germany4732 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-11-06 07:00:31
November 06 2009 07:00 GMT
#447
I vote Re8

+ Show Spoiler +
Finish development, has to be played eventually. Qd7 does not look too bad either, connecting the Rocks and binding the white queen because of the pawn at a4. I just feel that d7 is a good field for our Knight, if it has to retreat via e2-e4 and follow-ups
"Withstand. Suffer. Live as you must now live. There will, one day, be answer to this." ||| "A life, Jimmy, you know what that is? It's the shit that happens while you're waiting for moments that never come."
Divinek
Profile Blog Joined November 2006
Canada4045 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-11-06 08:11:29
November 06 2009 08:08 GMT
#448
+ Show Spoiler +


Seeing as jfazz already pointed out 12.. c5! and i agreed with it... might analyze the follows up above me to show why they're weak

Re8 seems fine here because yeah it'll be needed anyways, it might even be better in some lines.

But Qd7 seems ew cause any follow he can play with e4 kind of equalizes the position



i vote 12..c5
Never attribute to malice that which can be adequately explained by stupidity.
Oh goodness me, FOX tv where do you get your sight? Can't you keep track, the puck is black. That's why the ice is white.
unknown.sam
Profile Joined May 2007
Philippines2701 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-11-06 09:44:22
November 06 2009 09:38 GMT
#449
it's positions like this that give me the toughest time (i.e. no clear plan/strategy)

+ Show Spoiler +
i guess the only moves i can think of here are 12...Rf8-e8, 12...d5 and 12...c5. with 12...c5 he may reply with either 13. e2-e4, 13. e2-e3. with either reply i think a decent follow would be to apply pressure to the c-file and his cpawn by 13...cxd4 14.cxd4 Ra8-c8 followed by Qc7 etc.

i vote 12...c5
"Thanks for the kind words, but if SS is the most interesting book you've ever read, you must have just started reading a couple of weeks ago." - Mark Rippetoe
motbob
Profile Blog Joined July 2008
United States12546 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-11-06 12:07:50
November 06 2009 09:47 GMT
#450
ModeratorGood content always wins.
anImaru
Profile Blog Joined June 2008
United States106 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-11-06 22:26:39
November 06 2009 10:08 GMT
#451
I vote 12...c5

+ Show Spoiler +
We are not sure we want our rook on the e file yet. After e4 e5, the rook will probably have to switch to another file with a loss of tempo. In fact some lines will involving pushing the f pawn so the rook is better where it is right now.
With regards to Qc8...we don't really need this preparation move in order to push c5. Also it will require moving the queen again before being able to move the a-file rook to a centralized file later.


Edit: Changed move choice to c5

jfazz
Profile Joined September 2009
Australia672 Posts
November 06 2009 10:49 GMT
#452
For everyone angling for a move that is not Qc8 or c5, please read the ;
+ Show Spoiler +
12...c5 or 12...Qc8 - both are heavily analysed in one of my previous posts, on the last page.

Simply, 12...Qd7 acts in a similar fashion to Qc8, but with less overall effect - the Queen on c8 promotes a very strong c5 break, and allows the queen to move to b7 or a6 as necessary. She can then also quickly mobilise to the kingside after we play e5.

sample line: 13. e4 c5 14. Qc2 e5 15. Bb2 Nc6 16. Nf3 Qa6 17. dxc5 dxc5 18. Nd2 Rad8 19. Rfd1 Qc8 and Black has a dominating position.

12...c5 has already been heavily analysed, and is indeed a great move. I won't reiterate the points of others, but suffice it to say, I think the Qc8 lines offer more in the long run.

Why not Re8? We do not yet know for certain, until a few more central pawn moves are made, what the best file for the rooks are. It would be ill advised to move a rook at this point then. We may want to push the f-file pawn, so that rook shouldn't move, and the other may be needed for the c-file. Best to wait.

d5 is overzelous, as shown by my previous analysis - we want to play against his dark square bishop and make it as bad as possible - so the pawn chain c5-d6-e5 best achieves this, basically wasting that piece. Our knight pair could then have a SIGNIFICANT edge over his knight-bishop in an endgame.

Per my previous analysis, and after much thought, I would prefer to play 12...Qc8
Victory needs no explanation, defeat allows none
motbob
Profile Blog Joined July 2008
United States12546 Posts
November 06 2009 12:15 GMT
#453
It seems like black is sort of... fated to play c5 eventually so I'd like to play it now and do all our queen/rook positioning in response to whatever white does.

12...c5
ModeratorGood content always wins.
iloveambiguity
Profile Joined August 2009
United States81 Posts
November 06 2009 16:12 GMT
#454
Qc8,
Athos
Profile Blog Joined February 2008
United States2484 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-11-06 16:36:17
November 06 2009 16:36 GMT
#455
Ok, I change my vote to QC8.
+ Show Spoiler +

I can see that it is slightly stronger than D7 and we can always move it to b7.
Khenra
Profile Blog Joined January 2009
Netherlands885 Posts
November 06 2009 16:36 GMT
#456
I vote 12...c7-c5.

+ Show Spoiler +
It's the move I'd play, Qc8 is too complicated for me
This signature is ruining eSports.
Altair
Profile Joined August 2009
243 Posts
November 06 2009 17:08 GMT
#457
Im not in the team but i see that "outsiders" are free to comment so...
+ Show Spoiler +

On November 06 2009 19:49 jfazz wrote:
we want to play against his dark square bishop and make it as bad as possible - so the pawn chain c5-d6-e5 best achieves this, basically wasting that piece. Our knight pair could then have a SIGNIFICANT edge over his knight-bishop in an endgame


I like the idea of playing c5 because it takes advantage of black's better pawn formation but i don't see how his dark square bishop will get weaker if you give it more targets. oO


lightman
Profile Joined April 2005
United States731 Posts
November 06 2009 17:55 GMT
#458
12 ..... Qc8

+ Show Spoiler +
we have finished early game and have now entered mid game, so safe play is a must

With this move we solidify our C line as well as the E diagonal.

eventually the next move should be c5, but at this point I do not wish to be the first one to tempt the attack on c5, d5 squares

Chuck Norris owns the greatest Poker Face of all-time. It helped him win the 1983 WSOP holding just a Get out of Jail Free Monopoloy card, and a green #4 card from the game UNO, against an AAA KK flop and his rival folding AK after Chuck raised him ALL-IN
Syntax Lost
Profile Joined May 2009
Finland86 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-11-06 19:21:25
November 06 2009 18:33 GMT
#459
+ Show Spoiler +
I favour d5. Continuing with jfazz line posted earlier we get:
13. cxd5 Qxd5+ 14. f3 Qc6
Now the white f-pawn is pinned and we threaten Ng4 while simultaneously attacking the c-pawn. We should be up a pawn if this line is continued.

I vote d5.
Zozma
Profile Blog Joined November 2008
United States1626 Posts
November 06 2009 19:19 GMT
#460
I'll also vote for 12...Qd8-c8.
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