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>>>If you are going to post your analysis here, PLEASE, put them all in SPOILER TAGS!! <<<
CURRENT POSITION:
JUST PLAYED: 20. Bc1-b2
VOTING CLOSES: 24 NOV, 0.00 AM GMT (24 NOV, 8.00 AM KST)
Reversed Board for Team 2 convenience:
+ Show Spoiler +
MOVE LIST:
+ Show Spoiler +1. d4 Nf6 2. c4 e6 3. Nf3 b6 4. Nc3 Bb7 5. g3 Bb4 6. Bg2 0-0 7. 0-0 Bxc3 8. bxc3 d6 9. a4 Nc6 10. Rb1 Na5 11. Nd2 Bxg2 12. Kxg2 Qc8 13. Qc2 c5 14. f3 Qc6 15. e4 cxd4 16. cxd4 Rfc8 17. c5 dxc5 18. dxc5 Qxc5 19. Qxc5 Rxc5 20. Bb2*
LAST VOTING (RESULTS):
+ Show Spoiler +19...Rc8xc5 - 8 VOTES
19...Kh8 - 1 (LOL)
1) RULES:
+ Show Spoiler +> I'm playing with white pieces.
> You have 24 hours to vote for each of your moves.
> I'll update my move 24 hours after voting closes.
> You are voting by posting in this thread "I vote... /move/".
> Please use Long Algebraic notation to avoid confusion.
> Voting always closes at midnight (0.00 GMT, 8.00 AM KST).
> I'll count the votes immediately after deadline.
> Members who'll be late WON'T be taken in account.
> After counting votes, I'll publish info, as follows:
- Voting results.
- Current position.
- Last move played.
- Updated list of moves.
- Exact time of next deadline.
> No chess engines or outside help, please.
2) TEAMS:
+ Show Spoiler +
3) PREVIOUS THREADS:
+ Show Spoiler +
4) EXTRAS:
+ Show Spoiler +http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YXM3wrIhcwY If you have an idea what else might be put here, feel free to suggest it!
5) IMPORTANT UPDATE:
From time to time I won't be able to submit my move exactly at 0.00 GMT. On that occasion, I'll do it earlier. This won't have any impact on your voting deadline: you'll just have more time to ponder and discuss. I'll accept all votes from the moment I posted my move till your voting closes. I hope you understand.
TEAM 2 ROSTER IS NOW CLOSED. SORRY!
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I'm not in team 2 yet, but..
I vote 1...Ng8-f6
+ Show Spoiler +I play the Kings Indian myself, but there are many variations that start with Nf6. It's overall regarded as the best black response against 1.d4.
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French defense, gogogo! (e6)
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We have so many people familiar with many different openings... but
1. ... e5 would be my preferred response.
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9070 Posts
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motbob
United States12546 Posts
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Canada8028 Posts
On October 16 2009 08:53 Pawsom wrote:
We have so many people familiar with many different openings... but
1. ... e5 would be my preferred response. + Show Spoiler +
I vote 1...Ng8-f6
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United States2186 Posts
I'm a lover of the dutch but I don't think that would be any popular.
1...Nf6 it is.
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The dutch is an inferior opening. It's like 4 pooling zvz on a 6 player map.
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l10f
United States3241 Posts
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Have we had these kinds of threads before? Seems like there should be a million of these 
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f5. I want to see a Dutch.
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queeeens indian
I vote 1...Ng8-Nf6
first time ever using long algebraic
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omg that stop animation chess is gold
gl to you guys on beating him
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I'm voting Ng8-f6. Nimzo that mofo
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Well, since i didn't notice the rules last time i posted i'll vote again.
I vote f7-f5.
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I vote Ng8-f6
btw fide rating nekzel?
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On October 16 2009 12:11 O-ops wrote:
Well, since i didn't notice the rules last time i posted i'll vote again.
I vote f7-f5.
you can edit your posts
@above, he said his fide is around 1800
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God, so many different openings and so many different views here.... but it seems the popular vote here is Nf6.... but is it really the best one... hmm.... let's find out shall we?
and I vote Nf6 as well....
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i vote Ng8-f6! Lets see how this plays out
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yeah im sort of overwhelmed by the number of different responses.
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+ Show Spoiler +Seems like it's bound to be Nf6 at this point. I think it would have been better to discuss a bit before picking an opening...
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Can anyone vote?
If is, I vote f7-f5.
If not, GO TL!
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...Nf6 please
edit: i don't think there's really much room for discussion here
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On October 16 2009 13:33 neobowman wrote:
Can anyone vote?
If is, I vote f7-f5.
If not, GO TL!
No you had to sign up, read the op.
seems like it might be annoying comparing the list of people signed up vs randoms voting. Should almost put a huge disclaimer not to do so if they're not on the team.
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I like Nf6 as a start for Benoni into a Benko gambit. Or a straight-up c7. These always make for interesting games. Of course, I'm no Topalov.
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Note to everyone: Instead of just saying "Nf6", or "e5", you should be saying "Nf8-f6" or "e7-e5". It's just part of the rules.
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d7-d6
cant actually vote though.
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I vote: d7-d5
Strong preference for the Slav defense.
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Nf6
or rather Ng8-Nf6
Why long algebraic? Especially if you are a FIDE player, tournaments don't use it anyway. Heck, noone uses it anyway. Even chess books don't, so it wouldn't help a newbie to learn. Best the newbie adjusts to algebraic.
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unless tl is filled with experts, i don't give us much of a chance at winning...considering a plan is extremely important and you can't really depend on tactics the entire game...with just a bunch of people voting for one move at a time it's hard to come up with a real plan
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On October 16 2009 16:12 anImaru wrote:
unless tl is filled with experts, i don't give us much of a chance at winning...considering a plan is extremely important and you can't really depend on tactics the entire game...with just a bunch of people voting for one move at a time it's hard to come up with a real plan
Somebody has to perform some in depth analysis of the various possible moves a la Krush in Kasparov vs The World if TL really wants to stand a chance.
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United States2822 Posts
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On October 16 2009 16:12 anImaru wrote:
unless tl is filled with experts, i don't give us much of a chance at winning...considering a plan is extremely important and you can't really depend on tactics the entire game...with just a bunch of people voting for one move at a time it's hard to come up with a real plan
we'll be fine dont worry.
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I'm with disciple on this one. I vote g7-g6.
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Aww, there are tons of people voting that aren't on the list. Kinda yuki. :/
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I just stopped by to say that stop motion chess video is awesome !
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! just like to blab here
Queen pawn opening one of my favs i have a habit of trading pieces to quickly simplify and develop the game into late game as it take up either trading black the queens side for control of giving him the kings side. Queen gambit a variation of queen pawn opening is my fav opening as white frankly i hate the style of slow manuring some people play i love all gambits.
If i was playing black i would respond in kind
pawn to d5 line it up don't get caught up in strict openings you play the beginning to develop your end game. And depending on how you respond i would just develop my pawn structure to get shit out of the way.
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i actually hate queen pawn openings, variations can get really tricky as they can easily transpose to other queen pawn openings. i also feel very cramped with queen pawn games.
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United States24581 Posts
Let's try to play whatever is most standard so everyone can follow along. There's no need to get fancy when we have such a manpower advantage.
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Let them join the game! imo
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Looks like it's already been decided we're playing the Queen's Indian so
Ng8-f6
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sign me up! l'd go g8-f6  .
p.s. I'm from Lithuania
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He explicitly stated that analysis should be posted within spoilers, which in turn suggests people more experienced in chess will be able to suggest possible plans, and I'm sure our Polish friend will have the honour not to look at them.
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Alright guys, we have to make a choice and stand here regarding this. Either we're going to make our  great big one group of folks deciding to go super  Iris toward this guy or do a Flash! Or there's Always the innovative BoxeR Style as well.... I doubt we can pull a  Bisu build against this guy so let's hope we don't get our hands on the Stork build...
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motbob
United States12546 Posts
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I am FIDE 1900 Elo, so just follow my lead and we will win....
I do not care what opening we are playing, but Nf6 does not commit as much as f5 or d5 does. Can i join the team?
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OK Guys, we'll solve it as follows:
Right now (in 1st move Voting), only players mentioned in OP match staff will vote.
All players who are not on that list, but are willing to participate will be added when 2nd Voting starts.
(Those users will be added first to "Request" list, just to clarify they are in).
Please, look at "Request" list and clarify if you are into it, or not.
Thank you.
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On October 17 2009 01:43 iloveambiguity wrote:
I am FIDE 1900 Elo, so just follow my lead and we will win....
Exactly that isn't the point, we should play together.
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On October 17 2009 02:33 dismiss wrote:Show nested quote +On October 17 2009 01:43 iloveambiguity wrote:
I am FIDE 1900 Elo, so just follow my lead and we will win.... Exactly that isn't the point, we should play together.
This.
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On October 17 2009 02:48 The Raurosaur wrote:
Vote Nf5
i think you mean Nf6.
I too vote Ng8-f6.
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On October 17 2009 02:41 Vekzel wrote:Show nested quote +On October 17 2009 02:33 dismiss wrote:On October 17 2009 01:43 iloveambiguity wrote:
I am FIDE 1900 Elo, so just follow my lead and we will win.... Exactly that isn't the point, we should play together. This.
Actually when I played chess in school we were usually three people where I was quite the best and the other too also quite far apart in skill. So we usually played me and the worst guy against the middle one with me and my partner taking turns playing one turn each, with no communication. It was a lot of fun, and really challenging for all three, with lots of matches going both ways.. Would've been boring as hell if I just played one or two of them individually and beat them every time.
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On October 17 2009 01:43 iloveambiguity wrote:
I am FIDE 1900 Elo, so just follow my lead and we will win....
No. I'm not going to listen to a word you say, know why cause I am FIDE 2800 Elo.
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On October 17 2009 03:54 Divinek wrote:Show nested quote +On October 17 2009 01:43 iloveambiguity wrote:
I am FIDE 1900 Elo, so just follow my lead and we will win....
No. I'm not going to listen to a word you say, know why cause I am FIDE 2800 Elo.
Good evening, Mr Topalov!
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On October 17 2009 04:39 Vekzel wrote:Show nested quote +On October 17 2009 03:54 Divinek wrote:On October 17 2009 01:43 iloveambiguity wrote:
I am FIDE 1900 Elo, so just follow my lead and we will win....
No. I'm not going to listen to a word you say, know why cause I am FIDE 2800 Elo. Good evening, Mr Topalov!
That's exactly his point.
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motbob
United States12546 Posts
He can't be Topalov. I'm Topalov.
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On October 17 2009 04:39 Vekzel wrote:Show nested quote +On October 17 2009 03:54 Divinek wrote:On October 17 2009 01:43 iloveambiguity wrote:
I am FIDE 1900 Elo, so just follow my lead and we will win....
No. I'm not going to listen to a word you say, know why cause I am FIDE 2800 Elo. Good evening, Mr Topalov!
He might be the second comming of Kasparov. :p
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I once saw some guy on chess forum who said: 'Topalov? That must be some after-shave lotion!'
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On October 17 2009 04:39 Vekzel wrote:Show nested quote +On October 17 2009 03:54 Divinek wrote:On October 17 2009 01:43 iloveambiguity wrote:
I am FIDE 1900 Elo, so just follow my lead and we will win....
No. I'm not going to listen to a word you say, know why cause I am FIDE 2800 Elo. Good evening, Mr Topalov!
I hate topalov, I'd rather be associated with someone like Carlsen. But yes that was the joke.
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Yes I'd like to be added. =]
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On October 17 2009 01:54 Vekzel wrote:
OK Guys, we'll solve it as follows:
Right now (in 1st move Voting), only players mentioned in OP match staff will vote.
All players who are not on that list, but are willing to participate will be added when 2nd Voting starts.
(Those users will be added first to "Request" list, just to clarify they are in).
Please, look at "Request" list and clarify if you are into it, or not.
Thank you.
Thank you for adding me to the request list.
Right now, in depth analyses aren't neccesary yet, because we're still in the openings book. When we get a bit further along in the game I'll try my best to analyse and add to the discussion.
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On October 17 2009 10:10 anImaru wrote:
Yes I'd like to be added. =]
Me too
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Canada8028 Posts
By the way, was there any pattern behind the TLPD-ization, or did you just pick random players? All the progamers seem pretty well known.
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oh, i was just going to chime in with my own thoughts/suggestions, feel free to add me to whatever you want
edit: i'm piano 
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oh i didnt even notice that, stork cool stuff
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i wanted to be fantasy
anyway, when do you make the next move vekzel??
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On October 17 2009 18:10 unknown.sam wrote:i wanted to be fantasy anyway, when do you make the next move vekzel??
I'll update it when new voting opens (see OP info).
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Request confirmed. Anyways - we should really decide a strategy in a place where our competition can't see. Anyone feel up to coordinating this?
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Canada8028 Posts
On October 17 2009 22:09 Kazius wrote:
Request confirmed. Anyways - we should really decide a strategy in a place where our competition can't see. Anyone feel up to coordinating this?
Just post your analysis in spoilers. I'm pretty sure we can trust the OP not to look.
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Attention Guys, I have a little update here:
From time to time I won't be able to submit my move exactly at 0.00 GMT. On that occasion, I'll do it earlier than 24 hours after your voting closes. This won't have any impact on your voting deadline: simply speaking you'll have more time to ponder and discuss. After publishing my move, I'll accept every vote posted before your deadline, even if it was sent before official voting period opens.
So basically, when you will see my new move vote freely and it'll be OK.
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add me for new voting please.
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l10f
United States3241 Posts
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United Kingdom2674 Posts
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Vote: g7-g6
+ Show Spoiler +For less-informed voters, viable options include e7-e6, d7-d6, and g7-g6 as people have already voted. c7-c5 and e7-e5 are possible but perhaps messier.
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Canada8028 Posts
I vote g7-g6
I love me some King's Indian defense.
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Add me too please. I would love to play chess.
Whats up with the knight first move?
I vote g7 - g6
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i like ...e6 just to make it easy on us
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+ Show Spoiler +Hmm. This is probably wrong, but what about 2 ... d5 ? Well, I've never been that good with openings, though.
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United States4991 Posts
On October 18 2009 11:38 Zozma wrote:+ Show Spoiler +Hmm. This is probably wrong, but what about 2 ... d5 ? Well, I've never been that good with openings, though.
+ Show Spoiler +d5 cxd5 Nxd5 e4 advantage white. d5 cxd5 Qxd5 Nc3 advantage white. Personally I'm a big fan of e5 [I mostly only play blitz / bullet in person, hustler-like ], but it's not a particularly sound opening so I'd go with g6 personally. I'm not on the team though!
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On October 18 2009 10:12 MuffinDude wrote:
Add me too please. I would love to play chess.
Whats up with the knight first move?
I vote g7 - g6
+ Show Spoiler +
the 'knight first move' is used in response to d4 to stop d5. And it leads to many other great openings because you're developing a knight to a great square etc.
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I vote c7 - c5, Benoni defense + Show Spoiler +to which he'll probably reply d5, as taking on that pawn is a terrible mistake - from here, we can say b5 (Benko gambit), to which he'll take, undermining the d5 square, leaving him somewhat overextended and give us a lot of queen side freedom with moves like a6, giving us options to swing over the white squared bishop and queen with long diagonals and rook support - it will become a race between his king side and our queen side, but the pawn gambit gives us a huge head start, the classic Benko strategy
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On October 18 2009 12:29 Kazius wrote:I vote c7 - c5, Benoni defense + Show Spoiler +to which he'll probably reply d5, as taking on that pawn is a terrible mistake - from here, we can say b5 (Benko gambit), to which he'll take, undermining the d5 square, leaving him somewhat overextended and give us a lot of queen side freedom with moves like a6, giving us options to swing over the white squared bishop and queen with long diagonals and rook support - it will become a race between his king side and our queen side, but the pawn gambit gives us a huge head start, the classic Benko strategy
Some of this is simply not true. However, playing Benko, Benoni, or Kings indian ( we can transposition) is a fighting chess, we probably need that to win. I am ok with g6 or c5, but even some e6 lines can lead to complications in a few moves.
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i am actually phine with playing c5, it can lead to many kings indian lines as well as benko, benoni, etc
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e5 is shit, do not play, white gets comfortable, my final vote is c5
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I vote e7-e6
Queen's Indian!
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United States2186 Posts
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I vote e7-e6.
g6 isn't so bad though.
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motbob
United States12546 Posts
I vote g7-g6
king's indian gogogogo
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wow well , this is an very intetesting idea ;]
i will participate and vote for d5 here ;]
+ Show Spoiler +possible exchange on a d5 square and we have a knight in the middle of the board
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christ. not a King's Indian. Does no one realize how screwed that is against computer analysis? Kramnik has shown that with the advent of the bayonet attack, the KID is dead. Leave it that way.
I vote 2...e7-e6.
Vote for sanity please.
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Ya but the queens indian rox
Also he's not using a computer so it's a pretty moot point anyways.
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Lets take him off the beaten track and play the Budapest Gambit (2. e7-e5).
Edit: Spelling
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+ Show Spoiler +guys what the hell, queen's indian produces such simpler mid-games imo that it makes it incredibly advantageous, why make things difficult when you don't have to?
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the budapest gambit has been refuted amongst high level players. Only Mamedyarov still uses it, and his wins all come in endgames from evenish to slightly losing midgames - wich doesnt say much when a super GM has to scrounge wins against GMs and IMs.
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On October 18 2009 19:15 jfazz wrote:
the budapest gambit has been refuted amongst high level players. Only Mamedyarov still uses it, and his wins all come in endgames from evenish to slightly losing midgames - wich doesnt say much when a super GM has to scrounge wins against GMs and IMs.
I am well aware of that. I highly doubt though that too many GMs visit tl.net (actually we have an IM with OnePageMemory), so it wouldn't really make a difference. I am a bit tired of the standard openings and want to see something new where you actually have to think for yourself in the beginning.
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e7-e6. Queen's Indian all the way.
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On October 18 2009 20:19 dismiss wrote:
e7-e6. Queen's Indian all the way.
i vote it too
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G6. Lets go for a Grunfeld yay! It is very diverse and lots of fun to play!
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I vote G7-G6
It's cool how you gave everybody a TLPD value. I like how you made yourself Firebathero haha.
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just wanted to say thanks for making me ZerO - you're a champ Vekzel! But also, you're going DOWN!
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awww...didn't realize majority of team 2 voted for e7-e6 T_T
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Nice clay chess movie
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I vote 3 ... b7-b6
+ Show Spoiler +I am not really familiar with 1.d4 openings. 3 ... b7-b6 seems like the only reasonable choice to prevent the threat of c4-c5. After 3 ... d7-d5 4. c5, white has a lot of space and black is already in a very defensive position.
Don't take my analysis too serious though, I haven't played chess seriously in years.
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On October 20 2009 01:22 Malinor wrote:I vote 3 ... b7-b6 + Show Spoiler +I am not really familiar with 1.d4 openings. 3 ... b7-b6 seems like the only reasonable choice to prevent the threat of c4-c5. After 3 ... d7-d5 4. c5, white has a lot of space and black is already in a very defensive position.
Don't take my analysis too serious though, I haven't played chess seriously in years.
+ Show Spoiler +3...b6 is a part of the opening we're playing, unless I'm horribly, horribly wrong.
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3..... b6.
btw dont you guys think we should speed up this match a little bit ? at one move per day we may end up finishing this like next year........ after all it's just a fun match.
ps. sorry for joining late. we should have played budapest gambit, as I am a strong player myself with that opening
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On October 20 2009 01:29 Zozma wrote:Show nested quote +On October 20 2009 01:22 Malinor wrote:I vote 3 ... b7-b6 + Show Spoiler +I am not really familiar with 1.d4 openings. 3 ... b7-b6 seems like the only reasonable choice to prevent the threat of c4-c5. After 3 ... d7-d5 4. c5, white has a lot of space and black is already in a very defensive position.
Don't take my analysis too serious though, I haven't played chess seriously in years.
+ Show Spoiler +3...b6 is a part of the opening we're playing, unless I'm horribly, horribly wrong.
+ Show Spoiler +I figured since it is the logical move. However, I am not looking into any chess book or run any chess engine here. That would make it boring. And I haven't memorized any 1.d4 stuff basically. It it was for me, we would play a kings gambit
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On October 20 2009 01:29 Zozma wrote:Show nested quote +On October 20 2009 01:22 Malinor wrote:I vote 3 ... b7-b6 + Show Spoiler +I am not really familiar with 1.d4 openings. 3 ... b7-b6 seems like the only reasonable choice to prevent the threat of c4-c5. After 3 ... d7-d5 4. c5, white has a lot of space and black is already in a very defensive position.
Don't take my analysis too serious though, I haven't played chess seriously in years.
+ Show Spoiler +3...b6 is a part of the opening we're playing, unless I'm horribly, horribly wrong.
+ Show Spoiler +No, you're right. Here's a wikipedia link that explains what we're doing atm.
b7-b6
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b6, or bb4, or bb4 and later b6. I vote Bb4check
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On October 20 2009 01:45 lightman wrote:
3..... b6.
btw dont you guys think we should speed up this match a little bit ? at one move per day we may end up finishing this like next year........ after all it's just a fun match.
ps. sorry for joining late. we should have played budapest gambit, as I am a strong player myself with that opening
Chess marathon was the initial idea. What's wrong about finishing next year?
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I vote b7-b6. Yay, I got july, fits my chess/sc playstyle perfectly.
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United States24581 Posts
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motbob
United States12546 Posts
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I vote b7-b6. follow the plan
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l10f
United States3241 Posts
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I vote b7-b6. Let's get this boring opening play over with!
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I vote b7-b6. I bet no one saw tha coming!
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I vote
On October 20 2009 08:33 Slayer91 wrote:
b7-b6
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I vote c7-c5
Queen's Indian is something i probably seen too much, and oftentimes the game will turn into both side jockeying for positional advantages for the endgame.
On the other hand, we could stir shit up with a sharp benoni
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On October 20 2009 08:33 Slayer91 wrote:
b7-b6
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l10f
United States3241 Posts
On October 20 2009 11:27 O-ops wrote:I vote c7-c5 Queen's Indian is something i probably seen too much, and oftentimes the game will turn into both side jockeying for positional advantages for the endgame. On the other hand, we could stir shit up with a sharp benoni
+ Show Spoiler +If we go defensively, we should have the advantage, no?
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Canada8028 Posts
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On October 20 2009 12:00 l10f wrote:Show nested quote +On October 20 2009 11:27 O-ops wrote:I vote c7-c5 Queen's Indian is something i probably seen too much, and oftentimes the game will turn into both side jockeying for positional advantages for the endgame. On the other hand, we could stir shit up with a sharp benoni + Show Spoiler +If we go defensively, we should have the advantage, no?
+ Show Spoiler +I'm afraid you won't ever have the advantage when playing black. Generally, it's better to play sharply as black, as it drastically increases your win chances. On correspondence games like this one however, people have 24 hours to think about their move, so sharp play will often not work out too well. So you're right, defensive play is the way to go for now.
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On October 20 2009 12:00 l10f wrote:Show nested quote +On October 20 2009 11:27 O-ops wrote:I vote c7-c5 Queen's Indian is something i probably seen too much, and oftentimes the game will turn into both side jockeying for positional advantages for the endgame. On the other hand, we could stir shit up with a sharp benoni + Show Spoiler +If we go defensively, we should have the advantage, no?
+ Show Spoiler +The thing is, this is suppose to be fun, no?
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c5. Way more aggressive, b6 is yawn.
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On October 20 2009 12:00 l10f wrote:Show nested quote +On October 20 2009 11:27 O-ops wrote:I vote c7-c5 Queen's Indian is something i probably seen too much, and oftentimes the game will turn into both side jockeying for positional advantages for the endgame. On the other hand, we could stir shit up with a sharp benoni + Show Spoiler +If we go defensively, we should have the advantage, no?
well, if we d its hard to get an advantage, at some point we need to go for an attack to achieve a win....
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16951 Posts
On October 20 2009 13:57 iloveambiguity wrote:Show nested quote +On October 20 2009 12:00 l10f wrote:On October 20 2009 11:27 O-ops wrote:I vote c7-c5 Queen's Indian is something i probably seen too much, and oftentimes the game will turn into both side jockeying for positional advantages for the endgame. On the other hand, we could stir shit up with a sharp benoni + Show Spoiler +If we go defensively, we should have the advantage, no? well, if we d its hard to get an advantage, at some point we need to go for an attack to achieve a win....
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tigran_Petrosian
Although I doubt TL could play in a strategic style reminiscent of Petrosian effectively.
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Based on personal preference I would play g7-g6 here.
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On October 20 2009 13:28 Khenra wrote:Show nested quote +On October 20 2009 12:00 l10f wrote:On October 20 2009 11:27 O-ops wrote:I vote c7-c5 Queen's Indian is something i probably seen too much, and oftentimes the game will turn into both side jockeying for positional advantages for the endgame. On the other hand, we could stir shit up with a sharp benoni + Show Spoiler +If we go defensively, we should have the advantage, no? + Show Spoiler +I'm afraid you won't ever have the advantage when playing black. Generally, it's better to play sharply as black, as it drastically increases your win chances. On correspondence games like this one however, people have 24 hours to think about their move, so sharp play will often not work out too well. So you're right, defensive play is the way to go for now.
+ Show Spoiler + your realise that only applies to the super gm level right? Anything less than that really black can and does win all the time, and it doesnt take nearly as much to gain a positional advantage or failing that gaining an advantage from superior tactics when the game transitions from pos>to tactics.
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My vote goes to c5-c7, into Benoni. + Show Spoiler +we can always follow up with b7-b6 or even the offensive b7-b5 to open things up. We're playing against a single player who can form a clear strategy on his own, we need to bring tactics into play since this would be easier for us to exploit as a group. I think a more defensive game plays right into Vekzel's hands.
edit: on a different note, Carlsen broke 2800, and is within 9 points of Topalov. Surely, he's destined for great things.
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United Kingdom2674 Posts
Well normally I would not get myself into this kind of opening with black but since we are here...
I vote c7-c5.
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d7-d5
+ Show Spoiler +DECLINED
arbiter, why not go for the stronger middle position while we have the opportunity? why get all flashy with benoni? i was never a fan of it
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United States2822 Posts
I'm just going to withdraw from this because my chess knowledge isn't nearly extensive enough. :p
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On October 20 2009 20:07 scintilliaSD wrote:
I'm just going to withdraw from this because my chess knowledge isn't nearly extensive enough. :p
Yeah i have no idea what im doing , take me out aswell
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Guys, you've got to be kidding.
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Divinek, let me tell youo, its NOT just at superGM level. Im only a CM, and even at my lowly level, black just has to play defensively going for a draw. We win games with the black pieces when White tries too hard to force winning opportunities, making positional concessions to further his aims, only to have those self created weaknesses come back to bite them later.
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On October 20 2009 21:44 ZBiR wrote:
c5-c7
Excellent move. But now you have given away that we have a DT on the board.
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On October 20 2009 23:23 Malinor wrote:Excellent move. But now you have given away that we have a DT on the board.
nice win lol
i'll take someones spot if they drops if thats cool O_o
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On October 20 2009 20:48 Scaramanga wrote:Show nested quote +On October 20 2009 20:07 scintilliaSD wrote:
I'm just going to withdraw from this because my chess knowledge isn't nearly extensive enough. :p Yeah i have no idea what im doing , take me out aswell The opening is just like that. I think it'll be easier for us to contribute when it gets to the midgame.
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ok guys, we're only on move 3, which means we're on opening preparation.
if we play b6 -which we should- we will be playing
+ Show Spoiler +
the analysis of so far and what should come is as follows:
+ Show Spoiler +
Case 1
1 d4 Nf6
2 c4 e6
3 Nf3 b6
4 Nc3 Bb7
5 e3 Bb4
6 Bd2 0-0
7 Bd3 Bxc3
8 Bxc3 Ne4
9 Bxe4 Bxe4
10 0-0 f5
and black has slight advantage
Case 2
1 d4 Nf6
2 c4 e6
3 Nf3 b6
4 Nc3 Bb7
5 Bg5 Be7
6 e3 0-0
7 Bd3 c5
8 0-0 d5
9 cxd5 Nxd5
10 Bxe7 Qxe7
11 Nxd5 exd5
with slight advantage for white but black has a solid defense position
Case 3
1 d4 Nf6
2 c4 e6
3 Nf3 b6
4 Nc3 Bb7
5 Qc2 !? c5
6 d4xc5 Bxc5
7 e4 Nc6
white has development but strange positioning. this line favors draw or black win
another variation of the same line is
1 d4 Nf6
2 c4 e6
3 Nf3 b6
4 Nc3 Bb7
5 Qc2 !? Bb4
6 a3 Bxc3
7 Qc3 Ne4
8 Qc3 d6
d6 being novelty. equal position for both
a more conservative line
1 d4 Nf6
2 c4 e6
3 Nf3 b6
4 Nc3 Bb7
5 e3 Bb4
6 Qc2 Ne4
7 Bd3 f5
8 0-0 Bxc3
9 bxc3 0-0
10 Nd2 Qh4
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On October 21 2009 00:42 lightman wrote:ok guys, we're only on move 3, which means we're on opening preparation. if we play b6 -which we should- we will be playing + Show Spoiler +the analysis of so far and what should come is as follows: + Show Spoiler +
Case 1
1 d4 Nf6
2 c4 e6
3 Nf3 b6
4 Nc3 Bb7
5 e3 Bb4
6 Bd2 0-0
7 Bd3 Bxc3
8 Bxc3 Ne4
9 Bxe4 Bxe4
10 0-0 f5
and black has slight advantage
Case 2
1 d4 Nf6
2 c4 e6
3 Nf3 b6
4 Nc3 Bb7
5 Bg5 Be7
6 e3 0-0
7 Bd3 c5
8 0-0 d5
9 cxd5 Nxd5
10 Bxe7 Qxe7
11 Nxd5 exd5
with slight advantage for white but black has a solid defense position
Case 3
1 d4 Nf6
2 c4 e6
3 Nf3 b6
4 Nc3 Bb7
5 Qc2 !? c5
6 d4xc5 Bxc5
7 e4 Nc6
white has development but strange positioning. this line favors draw or black win
another variation of the same line is
1 d4 Nf6
2 c4 e6
3 Nf3 b6
4 Nc3 Bb7
5 Qc2 !? Bb4
6 a3 Bxc3
7 Qc3 Ne4
8 Qc3 d6
d6 being novelty. equal position for both
a more conservative line
1 d4 Nf6
2 c4 e6
3 Nf3 b6
4 Nc3 Bb7
5 e3 Bb4
6 Qc2 Ne4
7 Bd3 f5
8 0-0 Bxc3
9 bxc3 0-0
10 Nd2 Qh4
the only problem is your analysis is all based on + Show Spoiler + 4. Nc3 which is not whites main response to the Queen's Indian. 4. g3 is the more conventional response. I still support playing the Queen's Indian though as it used to be my opening against 1. d4 for quite a while before switching to the semi-slav
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its too early to post analysis, just decide if you want early or late game aggression, b6 for example, is more conservative than c5...
It is pretty much theory till like move 20, so deal wit hit chumps
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Sorry guys for being late. I'll update all stuff within couple of minutes.
EDIT: Done. Voting time!
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+ Show Spoiler +Do you guys think 4...Bb4 would be worth it? Or should we just fianchetto one of them?
Edit: Eh, I'll go for it.
Vote: 4... Bf8-b4
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+ Show Spoiler +
It simply depends on what people are more comfortable playing...queen's indian or a nimzo/queen's indian hybrid. Both moves are viable. I personally prefer 4...Bb7. Edit: It is quite likely that both will be played. The order simply removes certain lines from consideration.
I vote 4...Bc8-b7.
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United Kingdom2674 Posts
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ok guys as I told you in my prev post
he played 4 Nc3 which means we're on opening preparation.
which means we are oficially playing
+ Show Spoiler +
I will repost once again the analysis of so far and what should come is as follows:
+ Show Spoiler +
Case 1
1 d4 Nf6
2 c4 e6
3 Nf3 b6
4 Nc3 Bb7
5 e3 Bb4
6 Bd2 0-0
7 Bd3 Bxc3
8 Bxc3 Ne4
9 Bxe4 Bxe4
10 0-0 f5
and black has slight advantage
Case 2
1 d4 Nf6
2 c4 e6
3 Nf3 b6
4 Nc3 Bb7
5 Bg5 Be7
6 e3 0-0
7 Bd3 c5
8 0-0 d5
9 cxd5 Nxd5
10 Bxe7 Qxe7
11 Nxd5 exd5
with slight advantage for white but black has a solid defense position
Case 3
1 d4 Nf6
2 c4 e6
3 Nf3 b6
4 Nc3 Bb7
5 Qc2 !? c5
6 d4xc5 Bxc5
7 e4 Nc6
white has development but strange positioning. this line favors draw or black win
another variation of the same line is
1 d4 Nf6
2 c4 e6
3 Nf3 b6
4 Nc3 Bb7
5 Qc2 !? Bb4
6 a3 Bxc3
7 Qc3 Ne4
8 Qc3 d6
d6 being novelty. equal position for both
a more conservative line
1 d4 Nf6
2 c4 e6
3 Nf3 b6
4 Nc3 Bb7
5 e3 Bb4
6 Qc2 Ne4
7 Bd3 f5
8 0-0 Bxc3
9 bxc3 0-0
10 Nd2 Qh4
all analysis moves agree on the fact that we should play
+ Show Spoiler +
now be prepared for his move which can be
+ Show Spoiler +
to which we should replay respectively
+ Show Spoiler +
5... Bb4
5... Bb4 or ... c5
5... Be7
at this point I don't think white will come up with any novelties because.
+ Show Spoiler +
we are still in the opening
and this is why my vote and our next move must be
4...Bb7
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l10f
United States3241 Posts
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+ Show Spoiler + i find it interesting he didnt just opt for the most common repsonse these days which is 4 g3 like so
1 d4 Nf6
2 c4 e6
3 Nf3 b6
4 g3 Bb7
Regardless yes it's "I vote" ...bc8-b7
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United States2186 Posts
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Vexel is opening up ponziani right? i haven't played chess in some time- but i am curious if this is the white opening i am familiar with.
thanks to any that read and answer this ^^
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Lightman, stope wikiing opening moves, half the time what you say is incorrect or exegarated. the advantage of bb4 over bb7 is that it does not commit the white square bishop immediately to b7, in some lines the bishop first or permanently goes to a6...
anyway, bb4 leaves us more options, i vote for it.
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Nice work Lightman, amazing explanation for such a simple move.
Bishop B-7
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On October 22 2009 04:35 lightman wrote:ok guys as I told you in my prev post he played 4 Nc3 which means we're on opening preparation. which means we are oficially playing + Show Spoiler +I will repost once again the analysis of so far and what should come is as follows: + Show Spoiler +
Case 1
1 d4 Nf6
2 c4 e6
3 Nf3 b6
4 Nc3 Bb7
5 e3 Bb4
6 Bd2 0-0
7 Bd3 Bxc3
8 Bxc3 Ne4
9 Bxe4 Bxe4
10 0-0 f5
and black has slight advantage
Case 2
1 d4 Nf6
2 c4 e6
3 Nf3 b6
4 Nc3 Bb7
5 Bg5 Be7
6 e3 0-0
7 Bd3 c5
8 0-0 d5
9 cxd5 Nxd5
10 Bxe7 Qxe7
11 Nxd5 exd5
with slight advantage for white but black has a solid defense position
Case 3
1 d4 Nf6
2 c4 e6
3 Nf3 b6
4 Nc3 Bb7
5 Qc2 !? c5
6 d4xc5 Bxc5
7 e4 Nc6
white has development but strange positioning. this line favors draw or black win
another variation of the same line is
1 d4 Nf6
2 c4 e6
3 Nf3 b6
4 Nc3 Bb7
5 Qc2 !? Bb4
6 a3 Bxc3
7 Qc3 Ne4
8 Qc3 d6
d6 being novelty. equal position for both
a more conservative line
1 d4 Nf6
2 c4 e6
3 Nf3 b6
4 Nc3 Bb7
5 e3 Bb4
6 Qc2 Ne4
7 Bd3 f5
8 0-0 Bxc3
9 bxc3 0-0
10 Nd2 Qh4
all analysis moves agree on the fact that we should play + Show Spoiler +now be prepared for his move which can be + Show Spoiler +to which we should replay respectively + Show Spoiler +
5... Bb4
5... Bb4 or ... c5
5... Be7
at this point I don't think white will come up with any novelties because. + Show Spoiler +
we are still in the opening
and this is why my vote and our next move must be 4...Bb7
+ Show Spoiler +why not 5 a3? then like ..d5 6 Bg5 Be7 7 Qa4+ c6 8 Bxf6 Bxf6 and so on seems like a stronger line for white, just wondering why you aren't considering 5 a3 at all
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On October 22 2009 15:56 benjammin wrote:Show nested quote +On October 22 2009 04:35 lightman wrote:ok guys as I told you in my prev post he played 4 Nc3 which means we're on opening preparation. which means we are oficially playing + Show Spoiler +I will repost once again the analysis of so far and what should come is as follows: + Show Spoiler +
Case 1
1 d4 Nf6
2 c4 e6
3 Nf3 b6
4 Nc3 Bb7
5 e3 Bb4
6 Bd2 0-0
7 Bd3 Bxc3
8 Bxc3 Ne4
9 Bxe4 Bxe4
10 0-0 f5
and black has slight advantage
Case 2
1 d4 Nf6
2 c4 e6
3 Nf3 b6
4 Nc3 Bb7
5 Bg5 Be7
6 e3 0-0
7 Bd3 c5
8 0-0 d5
9 cxd5 Nxd5
10 Bxe7 Qxe7
11 Nxd5 exd5
with slight advantage for white but black has a solid defense position
Case 3
1 d4 Nf6
2 c4 e6
3 Nf3 b6
4 Nc3 Bb7
5 Qc2 !? c5
6 d4xc5 Bxc5
7 e4 Nc6
white has development but strange positioning. this line favors draw or black win
another variation of the same line is
1 d4 Nf6
2 c4 e6
3 Nf3 b6
4 Nc3 Bb7
5 Qc2 !? Bb4
6 a3 Bxc3
7 Qc3 Ne4
8 Qc3 d6
d6 being novelty. equal position for both
a more conservative line
1 d4 Nf6
2 c4 e6
3 Nf3 b6
4 Nc3 Bb7
5 e3 Bb4
6 Qc2 Ne4
7 Bd3 f5
8 0-0 Bxc3
9 bxc3 0-0
10 Nd2 Qh4
all analysis moves agree on the fact that we should play + Show Spoiler +now be prepared for his move which can be + Show Spoiler +to which we should replay respectively + Show Spoiler +
5... Bb4
5... Bb4 or ... c5
5... Be7
at this point I don't think white will come up with any novelties because. + Show Spoiler +
we are still in the opening
and this is why my vote and our next move must be 4...Bb7 + Show Spoiler +why not 5 a3? then like ..d5 6 Bg5 Be7 7 Qa4+ c6 8 Bxf6 Bxf6 and so on seems like a stronger line for white, just wondering why you aren't considering 5 a3 at all
+ Show Spoiler +
5 a3 isnt quite so good for white because of something simply like 5.. c5 then white is forced into something more awkward like 6 d5 or 6 e3. It just isnt as comfortable for white and allows room for some sharp play from black. It definitely doesn't gain him any ground
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On October 22 2009 16:42 Divinek wrote:Show nested quote +On October 22 2009 15:56 benjammin wrote:On October 22 2009 04:35 lightman wrote:ok guys as I told you in my prev post he played 4 Nc3 which means we're on opening preparation. which means we are oficially playing + Show Spoiler +I will repost once again the analysis of so far and what should come is as follows: + Show Spoiler +
Case 1
1 d4 Nf6
2 c4 e6
3 Nf3 b6
4 Nc3 Bb7
5 e3 Bb4
6 Bd2 0-0
7 Bd3 Bxc3
8 Bxc3 Ne4
9 Bxe4 Bxe4
10 0-0 f5
and black has slight advantage
Case 2
1 d4 Nf6
2 c4 e6
3 Nf3 b6
4 Nc3 Bb7
5 Bg5 Be7
6 e3 0-0
7 Bd3 c5
8 0-0 d5
9 cxd5 Nxd5
10 Bxe7 Qxe7
11 Nxd5 exd5
with slight advantage for white but black has a solid defense position
Case 3
1 d4 Nf6
2 c4 e6
3 Nf3 b6
4 Nc3 Bb7
5 Qc2 !? c5
6 d4xc5 Bxc5
7 e4 Nc6
white has development but strange positioning. this line favors draw or black win
another variation of the same line is
1 d4 Nf6
2 c4 e6
3 Nf3 b6
4 Nc3 Bb7
5 Qc2 !? Bb4
6 a3 Bxc3
7 Qc3 Ne4
8 Qc3 d6
d6 being novelty. equal position for both
a more conservative line
1 d4 Nf6
2 c4 e6
3 Nf3 b6
4 Nc3 Bb7
5 e3 Bb4
6 Qc2 Ne4
7 Bd3 f5
8 0-0 Bxc3
9 bxc3 0-0
10 Nd2 Qh4
all analysis moves agree on the fact that we should play + Show Spoiler +now be prepared for his move which can be + Show Spoiler +to which we should replay respectively + Show Spoiler +
5... Bb4
5... Bb4 or ... c5
5... Be7
at this point I don't think white will come up with any novelties because. + Show Spoiler +
we are still in the opening
and this is why my vote and our next move must be 4...Bb7 + Show Spoiler +why not 5 a3? then like ..d5 6 Bg5 Be7 7 Qa4+ c6 8 Bxf6 Bxf6 and so on seems like a stronger line for white, just wondering why you aren't considering 5 a3 at all + Show Spoiler +
5 a3 isnt quite so good for white because of something simply like 5.. c5 then white is forced into something more awkward like 6 d5 or 6 e3. It just isnt as comfortable for white and allows room for some sharp play from black. It definitely doesn't gain him any ground
+ Show Spoiler +do you really think that transposing to a petrosian system is a bad idea, it seems like a slam dunk to me, i mean w/e to each his own but it seems viable enough to earn notice
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On October 22 2009 16:42 Divinek wrote:Show nested quote +On October 22 2009 15:56 benjammin wrote:On October 22 2009 04:35 lightman wrote:ok guys as I told you in my prev post he played 4 Nc3 which means we're on opening preparation. which means we are oficially playing + Show Spoiler +I will repost once again the analysis of so far and what should come is as follows: + Show Spoiler +
Case 1
1 d4 Nf6
2 c4 e6
3 Nf3 b6
4 Nc3 Bb7
5 e3 Bb4
6 Bd2 0-0
7 Bd3 Bxc3
8 Bxc3 Ne4
9 Bxe4 Bxe4
10 0-0 f5
and black has slight advantage
Case 2
1 d4 Nf6
2 c4 e6
3 Nf3 b6
4 Nc3 Bb7
5 Bg5 Be7
6 e3 0-0
7 Bd3 c5
8 0-0 d5
9 cxd5 Nxd5
10 Bxe7 Qxe7
11 Nxd5 exd5
with slight advantage for white but black has a solid defense position
Case 3
1 d4 Nf6
2 c4 e6
3 Nf3 b6
4 Nc3 Bb7
5 Qc2 !? c5
6 d4xc5 Bxc5
7 e4 Nc6
white has development but strange positioning. this line favors draw or black win
another variation of the same line is
1 d4 Nf6
2 c4 e6
3 Nf3 b6
4 Nc3 Bb7
5 Qc2 !? Bb4
6 a3 Bxc3
7 Qc3 Ne4
8 Qc3 d6
d6 being novelty. equal position for both
a more conservative line
1 d4 Nf6
2 c4 e6
3 Nf3 b6
4 Nc3 Bb7
5 e3 Bb4
6 Qc2 Ne4
7 Bd3 f5
8 0-0 Bxc3
9 bxc3 0-0
10 Nd2 Qh4
all analysis moves agree on the fact that we should play + Show Spoiler +now be prepared for his move which can be + Show Spoiler +to which we should replay respectively + Show Spoiler +
5... Bb4
5... Bb4 or ... c5
5... Be7
at this point I don't think white will come up with any novelties because. + Show Spoiler +
we are still in the opening
and this is why my vote and our next move must be 4...Bb7 + Show Spoiler +why not 5 a3? then like ..d5 6 Bg5 Be7 7 Qa4+ c6 8 Bxf6 Bxf6 and so on seems like a stronger line for white, just wondering why you aren't considering 5 a3 at all + Show Spoiler +
5 a3 isnt quite so good for white because of something simply like 5.. c5 then white is forced into something more awkward like 6 d5 or 6 e3. It just isnt as comfortable for white and allows room for some sharp play from black. It definitely doesn't gain him any ground
+ Show Spoiler +Actually, a3 other than limiting the scope of the white squared bishop allows for a later b4, and white has a massive space advantage on the queen's side. It is therefor a surprisingly popular move in case of Bb7. Bb4 means that he has to move the queen, otherwise c3 and the pawn structure is open to abuse, so we gain some tempo and flexibility with the dark squared bishop. Naturally, a later a3 move is always a candidate, but then we can retreat the bishop according to how things are going.
edit: c5 is a good reply, but it limits the scope of the bishop and can be answered by bringing various pieces to defend and develop white's position further... and I don't like games where white can follow a clear cut strategy unharassed.
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Canada8028 Posts
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Haha. This is getting fun. There isnt much point debating the viability of the various systems and responses kids, they are all very viable and it is more of a matter of what positions you feel comfortable playing - they all lead to subtle strategic differences.
All that said, I prefer 4...Bc8-Bb7 because I am a classical guy at heart.
Now:
a) 5.a3 Ne4 6.Nxe4 Bxe4 7.Nd2 Bb7 8. e4 Qf6 9. d5 Bc5 10.Qf3 Bd4 with equality, but a slightl nagging advantage for white going into an endgame if he can avoid mass exchanges. What you would expect from a pseudo-petrosian system. See Piket vs Anand, Gausdal 1986 for a good example of this line.
notes: also after 5.a3 d5 is also possible, such as 6.cxd5 Nxd5 7.Qa4+ Qd7 8.Qc2 Nxc3
ahhh, dont have time for this right now, so quickly off my head (sorry if I miss a variation, I dont have my notes with me):
c) 5.Bg5 Bb4 (although in more recent times I have had heavy success with 5.h6)
d) 5.e3 Bb4
e) 5.g3 Bb4
f) 5.Qc2 Bb4
g) 5.Bf4 Be7 (here I reference Karpov and more recently Aargaard)
h) 5.e4! Nxe4 6. Bd3 Nxc3 7. bxc3 Be7 8.0-0 0-0 with in my opinion, already a slightly better game for black, though white has some initiative, as in Johansen v Tallaksen, 2006.
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hey benjammin,
+ Show Spoiler +
sorry yes you are right, my apologies. I haven't considered 5 a3. he may play it .... he may not.... so well let's see.
it's my mistake to underestimate this move from him (as well as others also mentioned). my thought process is given the nature of the match I don't think he'll try anything fancy till we're ending the early game phase.
and to iloveambiguity ....... I'm not wiiking anything, I am a solid chess player myself, I'm just trying to keep it constructive and productive, if you don't like the analysis post yours then.
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On October 22 2009 21:56 jfazz wrote:
Haha. This is getting fun. There isnt much point debating the viability of the various systems and responses kids, they are all very viable and it is more of a matter of what positions you feel comfortable playing - they all lead to subtle strategic differences.
All that said, I prefer 4...Bc8-Bb7 because I am a classical guy at heart.
Now:
a) 5.a3 Ne4 6.Nxe4 Bxe4 7.Nd2 Bb7 8. e4 Qf6 9. d5 Bc5 10.Qf3 Bd4 with equality, but a slightl nagging advantage for white going into an endgame if he can avoid mass exchanges. What you would expect from a pseudo-petrosian system. See Piket vs Anand, Gausdal 1986 for a good example of this line.
notes: also after 5.a3 d5 is also possible, such as 6.cxd5 Nxd5 7.Qa4+ Qd7 8.Qc2 Nxc3
ahhh, dont have time for this right now, so quickly off my head (sorry if I miss a variation, I dont have my notes with me):
c) 5.Bg5 Bb4 (although in more recent times I have had heavy success with 5.h6)
d) 5.e3 Bb4
e) 5.g3 Bb4
f) 5.Qc2 Bb4
g) 5.Bf4 Be7 (here I reference Karpov and more recently Aargaard)
h) 5.e4! Nxe4 6. Bd3 Nxc3 7. bxc3 Be7 8.0-0 0-0 with in my opinion, already a slightly better game for black, though white has some initiative, as in Johansen v Tallaksen, 2006.
Its nice to see there is another good player on this thread.... Nice analysis, but why not bb4? after some a3 we can retreat to e7 at no significant tempo losss and we can still fiachetto the light square bishop?
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On October 22 2009 23:37 lightman wrote:hey benjammin, + Show Spoiler +
sorry yes you are right, my apologies. I haven't considered 5 a3. he may play it .... he may not.... so well let's see.
it's my mistake to underestimate this move from him (as well as others also mentioned). my thought process is given the nature of the match I don't think he'll try anything fancy till we're ending the early game phase.
and to iloveambiguity ....... I'm not wiiking anything, I am a solid chess player myself, I'm just trying to keep it constructive and productive, if you don't like the analysis post yours then.
I did not mean to offend you... I am sure you are decent.
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@ iloveamiguity - nothing wrong with Bb4 at all. Its a more dynamic line which leads to a complex and interesting middle game. My line leads to an extremely drawish position, with faster equality. Im a play for a draw kind of guy as black
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Hong Kong20321 Posts
so who's winning so far? o_ o
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Canada8028 Posts
Nobody's winning. It's still the opening.
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On October 22 2009 09:58 Misrah wrote:
Vexel is opening up ponziani right? i haven't played chess in some time- but i am curious if this is the white opening i am familiar with.
thanks to any that read and answer this ^^
This is definetely not Ponziani. This is Queen's Indian Defence.
Ponziani goes: 1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. c3!?
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United Kingdom2674 Posts
Well that g3 was a little surprising.
I vote: Bb4.
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On October 22 2009 09:58 Misrah wrote:
Vexel is opening up ponziani right? i haven't played chess in some time- but i am curious if this is the white opening i am familiar with.
thanks to any that read and answer this ^^
if you type it directly into wiki and look at the very first move you will indeed see this is nothing like the ponziani. as he even said just above this post somewhat.
oh i didnt notice he made is move
analysis then
+ Show Spoiler +
It seems almost completely obvious and a good thing just to take the knight off here, doubling his pawns, and giving him less presence in the center. He has to take back because of the double attack and best case being down a pawn if he doesn't immediately recapture.
So after something like
...5 Bxf3 6 exf3 d5 would be a strong move because he no longer has a pawn counteracting that file, and that pawn kind of blocks in his light square bishop for the time being so there is no worry of him trying to fianchetto it.
So i vote
...5 Bb7-Bxf3
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edit: Changed my vote to Bb4
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Canada8028 Posts
+ Show Spoiler +What's the point of going 5...Bb4? From what I see, all this does is provoke 6.a3 as a response, making our next move 6...Be7. Or is forcing 6.a3 actually the goal?
I'm not sure what to think of 5...Bxf3. While we do screw up his position, I'm not exactly thrilled about exchanging a fianchettoed bishop, especially if his light colored bishop is still in play. Movement of the knight on f6 is also restricted. Anyone else have thoughts on this?
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On October 23 2009 17:53 Spazer wrote:+ Show Spoiler +What's the point of going 5...Bb4? From what I see, all this does is provoke 6.a3 as a response, making our next move 6...Be7. Or is forcing 6.a3 actually the goal?
I'm not sure what to think of 5...Bxf3. While we do screw up his position, I'm not exactly thrilled about exchanging a fianchettoed bishop, especially if his light colored bishop is still in play. Movement of the knight on f6 is also restricted. Anyone else have thoughts on this?
+ Show Spoiler +He wont play 6.a3 in respone to Bb4. He will play Qb3 to avoid weakening his pawn structure.
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I vote for 5...Bf8-b4.
Reasoning: + Show Spoiler +this move actively develops our kingside, allowing us to castle more quickly than white can, actually giving us a slight developmental advantage piece wise, vs. his space advantage and slight initiative. This move limits his central mobility, while not committing ourselves to anything too much - we still had not moved the d-pawn, thus retaining the ability to play the breaking move d5 in one movement, potentially saving a tempo. Further, the b8 knight still has its full range of developmental options.
Now, for those wondering about 6. a3 Be7 is a simple transposition to the Petrosian line, which is in no way detrimental to us. It does win him a half tempi, in sofar as he gets the a3 move for free if instead we had played Be7 directly, but it also gives us scope for counterplay on the weekend b3 (say, Nc8-d4-b3 for example) square later in the game via knight play, or even as a positional weakness in a king and pawn endgame. Its a tiny detail not really worth any major consideration, but I just want to illustrate its not ALL bad.
Finally, I am REALLY REALLY REALLY REALLY against the bishop exchange, 5...Bxf3. Its a terrible move that offends my classical sensibilities. Why?+ Show Spoiler +
1) we exchange a well positioned bishop with immense latent power for a currently limited knight, ceding the bishop pair for no reason. While this opening does lead to interesting knight play, that is only a possiblity, while the bishops are always valuable. There is no sense in giving away any edge this early.
2) The doubled pawns ARE NOT an issue for white in this pawn strucuture. It adds additional protection to his kingside, limiting our own counterplay, and actually giving him a lever for assaulting our kingside via f-file pawn sacrifice. Even if it is never utilized offensively, it will still be traded off in the endgame, to no real detriment. Furthermore, this opens the e-file for pressure from his rooks.
3) The exchange of our light squae bishop stars to give him nagging play on our own light squares. Notably, this will accelerate his ability to play d5, which we cannot allow. It is an even exchange without benefit at the moment, but should it be allowed to gain momentum, and should he then be able to play d5-d6, its all over. We want to keep as much control over the central d5 and e4 squares as possible, while we can, so as to limit his ability to gain space and then momentum for an attack. I should mention that e4-e5 is also a threat if we are not careful.
In the future: + Show Spoiler +Id like to see us play ...Bb4, then aim to play either ...d6 or ...d5 as appopriate, castling soon after. With a safe classical position, we can then look at various methods of generating action in the centre, either via the standard ...c5 pawn lever (which is why I dont really want to play the knight to c6 if we can help it, I would rather wait and move him to d7, reinforcing our own counter-centre, and the crucial knight on f6) or through the more ambitious ...f5.
Im going to go and look up some classical Korchnoi games from this position, so as to find some methods for attacking. Ill be back.
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dude don't hurt vezkel's feelings
put your analysis in spoiler tags
edit: i vote 5...d7-d5
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On October 23 2009 20:42 jfazz wrote:+ Show Spoiler +
I vote for 5...Bf8-b4.
Reasoning: this move actively develops our kingside, allowing us to castle more quickly than white can, actually giving us a slight developmental advantage piece wise, vs. his space advantage and slight initiative. This move limits his central mobility, while not committing ourselves to anything too much - we still had not moved the d-pawn, thus retaining the ability to play the breaking move d5 in one movement, potentially saving a tempo. Further, the b8 knight still has its full range of developmental options.
Now, for those wondering about 6. a3 Be7 is a simple transposition to the Petrosian line, which is in no way detrimental to us. It does win him a half tempi, in sofar as he gets the a3 move for free if instead we had played Be7 directly, but it also gives us scope for counterplay on the weekend b3 (say, Nc8-d4-b3 for example) square later in the game via knight play, or even as a positional weakness in a king and pawn endgame. Its a tiny detail not really worth any major consideration, but I just want to illustrate its not ALL bad.
Finally, I am REALLY REALLY REALLY REALLY against the bishop exchange, 5...Bxf3. Its a terrible move that offends my classical sensibilities. Why?
1) we exchange a well positioned bishop with immense latent power for a currently limited knight, ceding the bishop pair for no reason. While this opening does lead to interesting knight play, that is only a possiblity, while the bishops are always valuable. There is no sense in giving away any edge this early.
2) The doubled pawns ARE NOT an issue for white in this pawn strucuture. It adds additional protection to his kingside, limiting our own counterplay, and actually giving him a lever for assaulting our kingside via f-file pawn sacrifice. Even if it is never utilized offensively, it will still be traded off in the endgame, to no real detriment. Furthermore, this opens the e-file for pressure from his rooks.
3) The exchange of our light squae bishop stars to give him nagging play on our own light squares. Notably, this will accelerate his ability to play d5, which we cannot allow. It is an even exchange without benefit at the moment, but should it be allowed to gain momentum, and should he then be able to play d5-d6, its all over. We want to keep as much control over the central d5 and e4 squares as possible, while we can, so as to limit his ability to gain space and then momentum for an attack. I should mention that e4-e5 is also a threat if we are not careful.
Id like to see us play ...Bb4, then aim to play either ...d6 or ...d5 as appopriate, castling soon after. With a safe classical position, we can then look at various methods of generating action in the centre, either via the standard ...c5 pawn lever (which is why I dont really want to play the knight to c6 if we can help it, I would rather wait and move him to d7, reinforcing our own counter-centre, and the crucial knight on f6) or through the more ambitious ...f5.
Im going to go and look up some classical Korchnoi games from this position, so as to find some methods for attacking. Ill be back.
Did you read the first sentence in this thread? POST ANALYSIS IN SPOILERS... Vekzel won't (literally) read our strategy that way.
My vote goes for: ... Bb4
for the reasons in my last post which are still relevant.
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Quoting the whole analysis goes a long way in getting OP to not see it.
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ok guys let's relax. first of all
we are still in opening book.
+ Show Spoiler +
I wasn't expecting the not commonly used 5 g3. Anyway, the correct response and what should follow to this is:
+ Show Spoiler +
5 g3 Bb4
6 Bd2 0-0
7 Bg2 d6
8 0-0 a5! (this is a suggesting move of mine, to break opening preparation)
If we get there, we have a solid position and we could go on to maybe
9 Qc2 Nbd7
10 Rad1 Qe7
11 a3 Bxc3
12 Bxc3 Ne4 !
leaving him with the responsability of to make the exchange or not
let me tell you guys that
+ Show Spoiler +
5 g3 is a very uncommon move for QID, and it's interpreted as "passive play" from white.
in chess if there's anything you want in early game is the initiative.
to spazner and snow fantasy
+ Show Spoiler +
5 .... Bb4 is the correct move for this opening. remember we're still on book.
6 a3 is a possiblity but unlikely at this point since he already has played g3, and it would imply more passive play for white and gives black more initiative
6 Qb3 also possible but not quite the proper.
to
5 .... Bb4
6 Bd2
would be the correct response from white
I also agree with iloveambiguity and jfrazz 's analysis............
now some corrections:
to Divinek
+ Show Spoiler +
5 .... Bxf3 is regarded as 5 ...Bxf3 ? -in chess a question mark means "why?"-
taking the knight and doubling white pawns won't make us stronger or him weaker.
instead, it makes us weaker and him one "not so important knght" down. that line would likely make us play to force a draw
the whole object of our Bb7 is to keep the active bishop attacking a very important line and eventually looking forward to take an important piece or be part of an important exchange.
to put it simple:
black's bishop in Bb7 is way stronger than white's Knight in f3 ... so why give it away?
.
and to the guy that keeps saying this is a ponziani opening.....
+ Show Spoiler +
for the eleventh time, it's Queen's Indian Defense
therefore my vote is
5...... Bb4
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United States24581 Posts
Bb4
+ Show Spoiler +clears the way for a king side castle and threatens the pawn structure on his queen side
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Hey guys I know this is book here and all, but what's wrong about ...c5? I know Bb4 develops a piece, but I was thinking ...c5 has the support of the bishop and possible position for it.
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c5 is playable, bb4, qb3 i think concedes the bishop too early, Ne4 is a good line here, i vote Ne4, go fetch the analysis from some book, I am too lazy to regurgitate opening theory... Bb4 is a positional mistake, because bishops are ususally slightly better, I would avoid bb4. My vote:Ne4
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Canada8028 Posts
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here's another line on playing 5.... Bb4
+ Show Spoiler +
5 g3 Bb4
6 Bd2 c5
7 dxc5 Bxc5
8 Bg2 0-0
9 0-0 Nc6
10 Bg5 Na5 ! (suggested by me)
the line I posted before....
5 g3 Bb4
6 Bd2 0-0
7 Bg2 d6
8 0-0 a5!
9 Qc2 Nbd7
10 Rad1 Qe7
11 a3 Bxc3
12 Bxc3 Ne4 !
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On October 24 2009 02:49 benjammin wrote:
i'm down with Bb4
Yeah. Or Bd6 maybe?
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Sanya12364 Posts
Bb4
+ Show Spoiler +This g3 seems slow as does most Fiancetto positions so black can now take initiative. The move sets up opposing Fiancetto bishops, the ugliness of f3 in such a situation should mean that knights on e4 will probably be safe from pawns.
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Never Bd6, you cannot block your d-pawn because you need it to advance to d6 or d5 fairly soon so as to complete development.
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On October 23 2009 22:56 lightman wrote:ok guys let's relax. first of all + Show Spoiler +
5 .... Bxf3 is regarded as 5 ...Bxf3 ? -in chess a question mark means "why?"-
taking the knight and doubling white pawns won't make us stronger or him weaker.
instead, it makes us weaker and him one "not so important knght" down. that line would likely make us play to force a draw
the whole object of our Bb7 is to keep the active bishop attacking a very important line and eventually looking forward to take an important piece or be part of an important exchange.
to put it simple:
black's bishop in Bb7 is way stronger than white's Knight in f3 ... so why give it away?
.
and to the guy that keeps saying this is a ponziani opening.....
+ Show Spoiler +
I've always been a fan of the possibilities this can lead to for your knights. But it does require quite sharp play, so I suppose i'd agree anyways with 5...Bb4 since it keeps it simpler and is a solid move.
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United States4991 Posts
On October 23 2009 22:27 Kazius wrote:Show nested quote +On October 23 2009 20:42 jfazz wrote:+ Show Spoiler +
I vote for 5...Bf8-b4.
Reasoning: this move actively develops our kingside, allowing us to castle more quickly than white can, actually giving us a slight developmental advantage piece wise, vs. his space advantage and slight initiative. This move limits his central mobility, while not committing ourselves to anything too much - we still had not moved the d-pawn, thus retaining the ability to play the breaking move d5 in one movement, potentially saving a tempo. Further, the b8 knight still has its full range of developmental options.
Now, for those wondering about 6. a3 Be7 is a simple transposition to the Petrosian line, which is in no way detrimental to us. It does win him a half tempi, in sofar as he gets the a3 move for free if instead we had played Be7 directly, but it also gives us scope for counterplay on the weekend b3 (say, Nc8-d4-b3 for example) square later in the game via knight play, or even as a positional weakness in a king and pawn endgame. Its a tiny detail not really worth any major consideration, but I just want to illustrate its not ALL bad.
Finally, I am REALLY REALLY REALLY REALLY against the bishop exchange, 5...Bxf3. Its a terrible move that offends my classical sensibilities. Why?
1) we exchange a well positioned bishop with immense latent power for a currently limited knight, ceding the bishop pair for no reason. While this opening does lead to interesting knight play, that is only a possiblity, while the bishops are always valuable. There is no sense in giving away any edge this early.
2) The doubled pawns ARE NOT an issue for white in this pawn strucuture. It adds additional protection to his kingside, limiting our own counterplay, and actually giving him a lever for assaulting our kingside via f-file pawn sacrifice. Even if it is never utilized offensively, it will still be traded off in the endgame, to no real detriment. Furthermore, this opens the e-file for pressure from his rooks.
3) The exchange of our light squae bishop stars to give him nagging play on our own light squares. Notably, this will accelerate his ability to play d5, which we cannot allow. It is an even exchange without benefit at the moment, but should it be allowed to gain momentum, and should he then be able to play d5-d6, its all over. We want to keep as much control over the central d5 and e4 squares as possible, while we can, so as to limit his ability to gain space and then momentum for an attack. I should mention that e4-e5 is also a threat if we are not careful.
Id like to see us play ...Bb4, then aim to play either ...d6 or ...d5 as appopriate, castling soon after. With a safe classical position, we can then look at various methods of generating action in the centre, either via the standard ...c5 pawn lever (which is why I dont really want to play the knight to c6 if we can help it, I would rather wait and move him to d7, reinforcing our own counter-centre, and the crucial knight on f6) or through the more ambitious ...f5.
Im going to go and look up some classical Korchnoi games from this position, so as to find some methods for attacking. Ill be back.
Did you read the first sentence in this thread? POST ANALYSIS IN SPOILERS... Vekzel won't (literally) read our strategy that way. My vote goes for: ... Bb4 for the reasons in my last post which are still relevant.
The same applies to you... if you're quoting his post then you should spoiler it. I edited your post for you in this case.
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Bf8-Bb4
+ Show Spoiler +
Just a tidy move in the spirit of the opening, if he plays a3, BxNc3 and it's a pretty good position for you, since it's a good variation of a nimzo-indian.
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On October 24 2009 08:38 HnR)Insane wrote:Show nested quote +On October 23 2009 22:27 Kazius wrote:On October 23 2009 20:42 jfazz wrote:+ Show Spoiler +
I vote for 5...Bf8-b4.
Reasoning: this move actively develops our kingside, allowing us to castle more quickly than white can, actually giving us a slight developmental advantage piece wise, vs. his space advantage and slight initiative. This move limits his central mobility, while not committing ourselves to anything too much - we still had not moved the d-pawn, thus retaining the ability to play the breaking move d5 in one movement, potentially saving a tempo. Further, the b8 knight still has its full range of developmental options.
Now, for those wondering about 6. a3 Be7 is a simple transposition to the Petrosian line, which is in no way detrimental to us. It does win him a half tempi, in sofar as he gets the a3 move for free if instead we had played Be7 directly, but it also gives us scope for counterplay on the weekend b3 (say, Nc8-d4-b3 for example) square later in the game via knight play, or even as a positional weakness in a king and pawn endgame. Its a tiny detail not really worth any major consideration, but I just want to illustrate its not ALL bad.
Finally, I am REALLY REALLY REALLY REALLY against the bishop exchange, 5...Bxf3. Its a terrible move that offends my classical sensibilities. Why?
1) we exchange a well positioned bishop with immense latent power for a currently limited knight, ceding the bishop pair for no reason. While this opening does lead to interesting knight play, that is only a possiblity, while the bishops are always valuable. There is no sense in giving away any edge this early.
2) The doubled pawns ARE NOT an issue for white in this pawn strucuture. It adds additional protection to his kingside, limiting our own counterplay, and actually giving him a lever for assaulting our kingside via f-file pawn sacrifice. Even if it is never utilized offensively, it will still be traded off in the endgame, to no real detriment. Furthermore, this opens the e-file for pressure from his rooks.
3) The exchange of our light squae bishop stars to give him nagging play on our own light squares. Notably, this will accelerate his ability to play d5, which we cannot allow. It is an even exchange without benefit at the moment, but should it be allowed to gain momentum, and should he then be able to play d5-d6, its all over. We want to keep as much control over the central d5 and e4 squares as possible, while we can, so as to limit his ability to gain space and then momentum for an attack. I should mention that e4-e5 is also a threat if we are not careful.
Id like to see us play ...Bb4, then aim to play either ...d6 or ...d5 as appopriate, castling soon after. With a safe classical position, we can then look at various methods of generating action in the centre, either via the standard ...c5 pawn lever (which is why I dont really want to play the knight to c6 if we can help it, I would rather wait and move him to d7, reinforcing our own counter-centre, and the crucial knight on f6) or through the more ambitious ...f5.
Im going to go and look up some classical Korchnoi games from this position, so as to find some methods for attacking. Ill be back.
Did you read the first sentence in this thread? POST ANALYSIS IN SPOILERS... Vekzel won't (literally) read our strategy that way. My vote goes for: ... Bb4 for the reasons in my last post which are still relevant. The same applies to you... if you're quoting his post then you should spoiler it. I edited your post for you in this case.
Done because the cat was out of the bag in this case.
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It's updated. You guys should really do something about the members who are not participating, otherwise we'll run out of players around move 20. (Less and less people voting).
EDIT: I played my move. GoGoGo!
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6...Nf6-e4
+ Show Spoiler +i think this move is quite aggressive which is not really my style of play. other options would probably be 6...d4 and 6...0-0 which would be moves that i feel would give a more comfortable position.
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I vote: 6... O-O
+ Show Spoiler +I doubt we'll get a better time to castle. He's probably going to castle himself as well, and then we can follow up with Bxc3, he takes bxc3, and then d6 puts us at a solid defense, pawns helping our active bishop on both sides, and to sum up: our position is slightly better. I think c5 at this point is premature and will either weaken our pawn structure or force us to move the bishop back, and d6 is much more reasonable, but again, we won't have a better time to castle than now.
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Perhaps, but you won't get rid of some of us soo easily :D
I really want to do something crazy...but nothing really comes to mind - still close to opening theory :D
so I vote for 6...c7-c5
+ Show Spoiler +this is basically standard theory that leads to equality in the fianchetto variation. A sample line might run 6...c7-c5 7. 0-0 cxd4 8. Nxd4 d5 9. cxd5 Nxd5 =. This position would have good play for both sides. We wuld want to castle and play d5 when possible. So what other options would Vekzel have? a) 7. dxc5 - an odd move, giving up central space and options (such as later pawn thrusts). We could simply ignore the white pawn, as c5-c6 is not a threat while we can still play ...Nxc6; and keep developing, either through 7...0-0, 7...Nc6 or ...Na6 (probably better, it pressures the pawn, offering a sacrifice, and would allow us to soon exert pressure of e4 and d3, after solidifying the knight outpost via the move ...a5, covering the c5 square from white pawn thrusts. I think this line offers white very little, and gives us as black too much counterplay. b) 7. a3 and now either ...Ba5 (we are been annoying) or ...Bxc3 (carrying out the threat to double pawns). Note that white cannot play the move b4 to trap the dark square bishop until he exchanges on c5, but black can then play the intermezzo ...Bxc3+; becafore recapturing on c5. This is a pretty mundane move, especially if we play the immediate ...Bxc3+, followed by ...Qe7 to pressure the a3 pawn and stop white's now unopposed dark square bishop from developing. If he counter-pins with Bg5, we play ...h6, entering the Kasparov variation in earnest. If he then exchanges, we are at a cross roads. The super solid ...Qxf6 gives us a good, safe solid position. We will want to play d5 or d6 depending on Vekzel's moves, bring the other knight to f6 via d7 and play from there. The more risky, and lets face it, fun way to go would instead be...gxf6!? (or ?! if we lose ). This is afforded only because of the semi-tempo waste in the 7.a3 move; we can then simply play d6 (or skip entirely if we want the knight to go to a6-c5), mobilize the other knight and castle queenside. It is easy to shut down queenside. Im overall very sceptical of this line, but I have seen it employed before. I would want to see some really hard analysis before comitting to it. c) 7. Bg5 - not a very good move in this line for white; he is going to give up his own bishop pair before we have even given up ours! simply play ...h6, and he either retreats to d2, wasting a move (unless forcing h6 was worth a tempi this early), or forcing Bxf6, Qxf6 which is good for us. Control of the g5 square cannot hurt us. d) 7.e3 - not a bad move at all. We can just castle however, and await further developments, preparing the pawn thrust ...d5 before maxx exchanging his pawn centre. Otherwise, my observations are that we want the queen on c7 when possible, to cover our b7 light square bishop, to limit tactical threats. Also, do we want to try and exchange his centre OR set up blockades and knight outposts? That is, do we want to play ...d6 and grind, or ...d5 and play for the initiative?
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I should mention, I have no issue with either Nf6...e4 or 0-0; we still have lots of good options
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6...Bxc3+
+ Show Spoiler +i like to exploit any opportunity to create doubled pawns
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I vote Ne4. To create double pawn on c file without giving a bishop for a night is the ideal! if qb3, we can try Bxc3, b,xc3 and d5 with a solid grasp of the light center squares, we can from here try c5 sometime, the other knight can develop to c6 after c5, or even nd7 to nf6. we can also castle witch is noncommittal but i like Ne4 here!
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Sanya12364 Posts
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I like 0-0 too, not really fuzzed about Ne4
edit:+ Show Spoiler +I'd like to see something along the lines of 6. ... 0-0 7. 0-0 c5
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how come Bxc3+ is getting no love, i think it's a much better move
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Bxc3+ is too early we should force him to play a3 before we just waste a move, doubled pawns are ok but 2 bishops can be powerful, 0-0 is the right move. Also how are we sure he's not gonna use a computer engine or something!! or us for that matter.
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On October 26 2009 05:38 benjammin wrote:how come Bxc3+ is getting no love, i think it's a much better move
+ Show Spoiler +For the simple reason that if you think a few more moves forward, we will not have as good a time to castle as now. We're not up against a scrub here. Take the time, put the pieces on a chess board and play out a few different continuations and you'll see that this is the moment with which castling leaves us with the most flexibility yet allows very little in the way of tactics on his side. If he doesn't castle in reply now, but instead defends the c3 pawn, he'll be severely limiting his future options. If we take now, we're already committing some of our flexibility, something that may be the right thing in over the board situations, but not when we have a while to think it through. This is the time where more in-depth analysis starts to shine.
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On October 26 2009 05:47 BeSt1g wrote:
Bxc3+ is too early we should force him to play a3 before we just waste a move, doubled pawns are ok but 2 bishops can be powerful, 0-0 is the right move. Also how are we sure he's not gonna use a computer engine or something!! or us for that matter.
it's kind of an honour system. I would hope no one uses an engine or it ruins the entire purpose of the whole thing
also
On October 26 2009 05:55 Kazius wrote:Show nested quote +On October 26 2009 05:38 benjammin wrote:how come Bxc3+ is getting no love, i think it's a much better move + Show Spoiler +For the simple reason that if you think a few more moves forward, we will not have as good a time to castle as now. We're not up against a scrub here. Take the time, put the pieces on a chess board and play out a few different continuations and you'll see that this is the moment with which castling leaves us with the most flexibility yet allows very little in the way of tactics on his side. If he doesn't castle in reply now, but instead defends the c3 pawn, he'll be severely limiting his future options. If we take now, we're already committing some of our flexibility, something that may be the right thing in over the board situations, but not when we have a while to think it through. This is the time where more in-depth analysis starts to shine.
+ Show Spoiler +i disagree entirely, we don't have to castle right now, and taking on c3 will give us the same positional equality as if we do castle immediately, though both are fine and it's more a matter of taste, but something like this will get us to castle all the same.
6...Bxc3+ 7.bxc3 d6 8.0-0 Nbd7 9.Rb1 0-0
So then ill vote for 6... Bb4-Bxc3+
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On October 26 2009 06:21 Divinek wrote:Show nested quote +On October 26 2009 05:47 BeSt1g wrote:
Bxc3+ is too early we should force him to play a3 before we just waste a move, doubled pawns are ok but 2 bishops can be powerful, 0-0 is the right move. Also how are we sure he's not gonna use a computer engine or something!! or us for that matter. it's kind of an honour system. I would hope no one uses an engine or it ruins the entire purpose of the whole thing
I've not yet opened a book as well, since I'm pretty sure that there is an in depth analysis on this set-up in literature.... and I haven't bought an engine yet. Going way off-topic, would using an engine to analyze my games improve my play?
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On October 26 2009 06:42 Kazius wrote:Show nested quote +On October 26 2009 06:21 Divinek wrote:On October 26 2009 05:47 BeSt1g wrote:
Bxc3+ is too early we should force him to play a3 before we just waste a move, doubled pawns are ok but 2 bishops can be powerful, 0-0 is the right move. Also how are we sure he's not gonna use a computer engine or something!! or us for that matter. it's kind of an honour system. I would hope no one uses an engine or it ruins the entire purpose of the whole thing I've not yet opened a book as well, since I'm pretty sure that there is an in depth analysis on this set-up in literature.... and I haven't bought an engine yet. Going way off-topic, would using an engine to analyze my games improve my play?
if you do it right it most certainly would
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bxc3 any other move would set us back.
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On October 26 2009 07:07 Chunkybuddha wrote:
bxc3 any other move would set us back. completely wrong but whatever.
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And yeah, computer analysis will really help your game. I use it heavily to verify my endgame play, but also to check my analysis for attacking/defensive variations in the middlegame. You would be sometimes surprised what hidden resources the computer can unearth in a position. Even if they just get you thinking of new ideas, it will improve your overall approach to the game.
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On October 26 2009 07:07 Chunkybuddha wrote:
bxc3 any other move would set us back.
Just no
+ Show Spoiler +Why would you release the tension this early in a position? Also, double pawns on the C file are actually strengthening his position.
Anyways, my vote is to castle here.
0-0
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l10f
United States3241 Posts
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Canada8028 Posts
I vote O-O
+ Show Spoiler +Don't really like the idea of developing a piece just to exchange it in the next move.
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just for everyone's information, the current poll sits at:
6...d5; 1 vote
6...Ne4; 3 votes
6...Bxc3+?; 5 votes
6...0-0; 6 votes
6...c5; 2 votes
please, dont let 6...Bxc3+? win. That it has so many votes says a lot about the quality of players on the black side.
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please, dont let 6...Bxc3+? win. That it has so many votes says a lot about the quality of players on the black side.
I agree wholeheartedly!
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United States2186 Posts
6...0-0
Bxc3 is much inferior
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jfazz, you can disagree without being an asshole, fyi
+ Show Spoiler +i don't understand why you are so negative toward this move. isn't 6...Bxc3+ 7. bxc3 0-0 essentially identical? can you at least explain why you don't like it instead of insulting people who disagree with you? i'm especially confused because earlier in the thread you were advocating 7...Bxc3+, just wondering why that difference is so fundamental here
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On October 26 2009 09:36 jfazz wrote:
just for everyone's information, the current poll sits at:
6...d5; 1 vote
6...Ne4; 3 votes
6...Bxc3+?; 5 votes
6...0-0; 6 votes
6...c5; 2 votes
please, dont let 6...Bxc3+? win. That it has so many votes says a lot about the quality of players on the black side.
Bxc3 is totally fine. wtf
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Id love for some of the posters disagreeing so strongly with me to post their ratings. Im only 2251, so if someone out there is campaining for 6...Bxc3+ and has a higher rating, feel free to scold me.
Others have already explained perfectly well why the move is not the best (and therefore, bad). You simply do not play a good move, when a better move is available - this is the situation for 6...Bxc3+.
more reasoning:
+ Show Spoiler +im not sure how to best explain this, so feel free to ask for elaboration on anything I say, im not sure if I am assuming too much strategical understanding. What I am trying to get across is not that "6...Bxc3+ loses by force" but simply that we are worse off playing it now, as opposed to later.
so...
1) we give up the bishop pair, with only a (usually temporarily) 'advantage' of the doubled c-file pawns. This is a loss under both modern and classical thinking. Bishops are worth more than knights while the pawn centre is still fluid, and given the current structure, the centre should remain fluid for a good many turns yet (basically until he plays e4 and we play ...d5, followed by him playing e5, which he does not have to do). The c-file pawns only remain doubled until we exchange our own c-pawn for his d-pawn, and in any case, we are allowing him to bring a wing pawn (the b-pawn) to the centre (c-file). Furthermore, our dark square bishop has a good many options if we keep it alive, such as:
a) after been kicked via a3, returning to e7 or indeed exchanging via ...Bxf3+. The difference is now that we gain a half tempi (as a3 is a pseudo wasted move). If we return to e7, we can later come to play on f6, after we have established outposts for our knights. White's pawn structure has the traditional lingering dark sqare weakness common to all structures with a pawn of d4 and e4, with no supporting pawn on c3. If white instead elects to play e3 instead of an early e4, he is forced to consider what to do with his own dark square bishop:
a1) play Bg5 - a pretty tame move in this opening variation, that leads to easy equality for black. we play...h6 in response, and due to his own fianchetto, he must exchange, allowing us to play ...Qxf6 with a good game. I have even seen ...d6, ...e5-e4 in this line (not by me mind you, im from the 'offer a draw with a slightly better position' school).
a2) play e3 with the dark square bishop at home, angling for a delayed e4 to free it. An alternative, albeit a poorly thought of one in this structure (as opposed to as in the Queen's Gambit were if often shines) is to play for b3 and Bc1-b2, although black has plenty of time to solidify a knight or bishop (but usually not a pawn) on the d5 square, AND have time to play the move ...f5, solidifying a grip on the d5 square, keep the bishop silent forever (or at least until the endgame, when it is sorta sucky anyway).
2) what are white's plans for the c3 knight? Basically, its only job in life is to support the advance d4-d5, which isnt a threat unless we play really lethargically. We will be solidifying a position on d5 shortly, at least before white can play it himself. Our bishop isnt going anywhere until it is forced to (in which case, we can always exchange for the knight) and we otherwise control the d5 square. So, the c3 knight is pretty lame. The knight can be horrendous later on if it can come to d6 via e4, but that threat is so far off, giving up the strength of the bishop pair for a 'perhaps' threat seems silly.
3) capturing now gives white an easy choice of moves, and puts little pressure on him to develop his own dark square bishop (because the move Bd2 sucks, why move a bishop only one square?). Lets say we castle, he castles, we play c5. Now d5 doesnt work out too well because we can now exchange and break his central strength. This simply doesnt work if we exchange earlier, because he doesnt play d5, he instead plays for e4 and e5. He can do that comfortably with four pawns in the centre, because he has no dark square weakness (we have no dark square bishop, and he gets a pawn to c3 for free) and he saves a half move (via not having to play a3). After kicking our f6 knight, he can only now continue with d5, and we collapse and die.
It seems like a small thing and what I have put above is exaggerated for effect, but there are fundamental ramifications for making an unforced exchange in this position. I can link you well over 100 grandmaster games were they continue with 0-0, c5 or Ne4; the mainlines (in that order), but none with the continuation Bxc3+, at least without been forced to do so by the move a3. The half move you gain is very fundamental, as after all, black is a full move behind, so regaining a half move goes a long way to forcing equality. The strength of the bishop pair cannot be discounted.
Finally, if anyone is wondering about Qb3, we play Nc6 - the only time in the whole QID complex that you voluntarily block your c-pawn.
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On October 26 2009 12:29 jfazz wrote:Id love for some of the posters disagreeing so strongly with me to post their ratings. Im only 2251, so if someone out there is campaining for 6...Bxc3+ and has a higher rating, feel free to scold me. Others have already explained perfectly well why the move is not the best (and therefore, bad). You simply do not play a good move, when a better move is available - this is the situation for 6...Bxc3+. more reasoning: + Show Spoiler +im not sure how to best explain this, so feel free to ask for elaboration on anything I say, im not sure if I am assuming too much strategical understanding. What I am trying to get across is not that "6...Bxc3+ loses by force" but simply that we are worse off playing it now, as opposed to later.
so...
1) we give up the bishop pair, with only a (usually temporarily) 'advantage' of the doubled c-file pawns. This is a loss under both modern and classical thinking. Bishops are worth more than knights while the pawn centre is still fluid, and given the current structure, the centre should remain fluid for a good many turns yet (basically until he plays e4 and we play ...d5, followed by him playing e5, which he does not have to do). The c-file pawns only remain doubled until we exchange our own c-pawn for his d-pawn, and in any case, we are allowing him to bring a wing pawn (the b-pawn) to the centre (c-file). Furthermore, our dark square bishop has a good many options if we keep it alive, such as:
a) after been kicked via a3, returning to e7 or indeed exchanging via ...Bxf3+. The difference is now that we gain a half tempi (as a3 is a pseudo wasted move). If we return to e7, we can later come to play on f6, after we have established outposts for our knights. White's pawn structure has the traditional lingering dark sqare weakness common to all structures with a pawn of d4 and e4, with no supporting pawn on c3. If white instead elects to play e3 instead of an early e4, he is forced to consider what to do with his own dark square bishop:
a1) play Bg5 - a pretty tame move in this opening variation, that leads to easy equality for black. we play...h6 in response, and due to his own fianchetto, he must exchange, allowing us to play ...Qxf6 with a good game. I have even seen ...d6, ...e5-e4 in this line (not by me mind you, im from the 'offer a draw with a slightly better position' school).
a2) play e3 with the dark square bishop at home, angling for a delayed e4 to free it. An alternative, albeit a poorly thought of one in this structure (as opposed to as in the Queen's Gambit were if often shines) is to play for b3 and Bc1-b2, although black has plenty of time to solidify a knight or bishop (but usually not a pawn) on the d5 square, AND have time to play the move ...f5, solidifying a grip on the d5 square, keep the bishop silent forever (or at least until the endgame, when it is sorta sucky anyway).
2) what are white's plans for the c3 knight? Basically, its only job in life is to support the advance d4-d5, which isnt a threat unless we play really lethargically. We will be solidifying a position on d5 shortly, at least before white can play it himself. Our bishop isnt going anywhere until it is forced to (in which case, we can always exchange for the knight) and we otherwise control the d5 square. So, the c3 knight is pretty lame. The knight can be horrendous later on if it can come to d6 via e4, but that threat is so far off, giving up the strength of the bishop pair for a 'perhaps' threat seems silly.
3) capturing now gives white an easy choice of moves, and puts little pressure on him to develop his own dark square bishop (because the move Bd2 sucks, why move a bishop only one square?). Lets say we castle, he castles, we play c5. Now d5 doesnt work out too well because we can now exchange and break his central strength. This simply doesnt work if we exchange earlier, because he doesnt play d5, he instead plays for e4 and e5. He can do that comfortably with four pawns in the centre, because he has no dark square weakness (we have no dark square bishop, and he gets a pawn to c3 for free) and he saves a half move (via not having to play a3). After kicking our f6 knight, he can only now continue with d5, and we collapse and die.
It seems like a small thing and what I have put above is exaggerated for effect, but there are fundamental ramifications for making an unforced exchange in this position. I can link you well over 100 grandmaster games were they continue with 0-0, c5 or Ne4; the mainlines (in that order), but none with the continuation Bxc3+, at least without been forced to do so by the move a3. The half move you gain is very fundamental, as after all, black is a full move behind, so regaining a half move goes a long way to forcing equality. The strength of the bishop pair cannot be discounted.
Finally, if anyone is wondering about Qb3, we play Nc6 - the only time in the whole QID complex that you voluntarily block your c-pawn.
Well we're not playing a grand master sooo Bxc3+ is a perfectly fine move
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No it isnt. Did you even read what I wrote? You simply do not play a move when a better move is available (in this instance, there are at least 3 better moves, probably as many as 6). Bxc3+ here would be a bad move at the 1500 level.
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United States24581 Posts
0-0
Reasoning:
+ Show Spoiler +First of all there is nothing wrong with castling here... I see no way for white to take advantage of this move. Second of all, Bxc3 is a mistake unless he forces our hand. If he were to play a3 then that might be the time to exchange, but I love having his knight pinned with him currently having no way to prevent that besides a3. We didn't place the bishop at b4 in order to immediately trade... doubling his pawns isn't worth wasting that much time early in the game. I think a pawn move here could work also but I doubt there is anything wrong with castling.
Also guys stop being hostile.
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jfazz, that makes sense. i wasn't questioning your reasoning, just your tone. i guess i was thinking the exchange was more neutral than anything else, and the value of doubled pawns sheerly for their awkwardness might gain some psychological advantage. after some more thought, i'd like to change my vote to
0-0
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I guess I need to watch my tone yeah, sorry. Im not used to explaining this stuff or playing in unison with others I suppose...for me, this has so far just been an exercise in recalling theory from memory.
Im trying really think of way of explaining why Bxc3+ is bad, but I cant. It is a good move. There are just better moves. It can always be played as an intermezzo when you are forced to play it, so the actual move can be better expended in alternate ways.
can all black players read the following, then respond in a spoiler, labelled 'aims':
Aims:
+ Show Spoiler +so guys, how do we want to play? It looks like we are castling, which is totally fine. Do we want to follow up with play in the centre (via c5 and d5, then exchanging) or do we want to go for Ne4 and f5 to keep our influence, go for d6 and Nd7? QID formation does not allow us to go offensive until later (or until he makes an error).
We could also play my preferred method (Karpov Style!) and go for c6-d5. The bishop may be entombed, but its not a big deal, as it blunts his bishop as well, and we can always re-allocate to a6. This game becomes a real grind, but its a lot of fun. I think it works well with so many people helping to, because everyones analysis will be checked several times, and together, we are unlikely to miss anything.
Thoughts?
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Yay I'm glad you saw the light! I never said it was the best move, just that it wasn't by any means a bad move.
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I vote 6... 0 - 0
+ Show Spoiler +Bxc3 is not a good move and should not be played imo. Has been explained before, so just read what others have said. Nf6-e4 would be fun, but I feel it is easily countered by Bd2 and we won't get any momentum going, and would be castling very soon anyway. So we might as well do it now.
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On October 26 2009 20:08 Divinek wrote:
Yay I'm glad you saw the light! I never said it was the best move, just that it wasn't by any means a bad move.
If 0-0 is played in hundreds of GM games in this exact position, but Bxc3 is practically never played, then Bxc3 is probably a bad move.
I also love how you tell jfazz to watch his tone when he's correct, while you write posts like the one I'm responding to. Basically, learn how to admit when you're wrong instead of whining about someone's tone.
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On October 26 2009 14:28 jfazz wrote:I guess I need to watch my tone yeah, sorry. Im not used to explaining this stuff or playing in unison with others I suppose...for me, this has so far just been an exercise in recalling theory from memory. Im trying really think of way of explaining why Bxc3+ is bad, but I cant. It is a good move. There are just better moves. It can always be played as an intermezzo when you are forced to play it, so the actual move can be better expended in alternate ways. can all black players read the following, then respond in a spoiler, labelled 'aims': Aims: + Show Spoiler +so guys, how do we want to play? It looks like we are castling, which is totally fine. Do we want to follow up with play in the centre (via c5 and d5, then exchanging) or do we want to go for Ne4 and f5 to keep our influence, go for d6 and Nd7? QID formation does not allow us to go offensive until later (or until he makes an error).
We could also play my preferred method (Karpov Style!) and go for c6-d5. The bishop may be entombed, but its not a big deal, as it blunts his bishop as well, and we can always re-allocate to a6. This game becomes a real grind, but its a lot of fun. I think it works well with so many people helping to, because everyones analysis will be checked several times, and together, we are unlikely to miss anything.
Thoughts?
+ Show Spoiler +My assumption is that if he'll castle in return, and then perhaps Bxc3 would be warranted for the simple reason that the semi open b-file is perhaps our most solidly defended one, so while we give up the bishop pair for weakening his pawn structure, he has no short to mid-term options of slowing down our development. c5 seems to be the natural follow up for the pressure we're exerting here. Blockaded doubled pawns really sting. c6 and d5 assumes that we'll need to retreat our bishop. I'm not comfortable with that at this point. Then again, I usually lose to 1800+ Elo players so maybe I'm doing something wrong 
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Sanya12364 Posts
Yeah, BxNc3 is just wrong in this situation.
+ Show Spoiler +
We need to look for counter play opportunities against the space advantage that has been given to white. The double pawn on c3 would only solidify the pawn center. It's better to build up the tension first. With a3 it's different since white wastes a move by white and there are new weakness on the queen side to possibly attack.
Aims/Plans
+ Show Spoiler +Really it depends on the votes but I was thinking of c6 d5. I was also considering d6 N-bd7 but that would limit the dark square bishop. I'd think that it's better to begin with c5 before going to d6 and N-bd6. Still such a line would limit the dark square bishop so much that we might as well exchange it. I'll think a bit more about d5 and the other possibilities, but those are my plans right now.
Yeah, now that I think about it, if I were to play d6, I'd exchanged with Bxc3 and then play d6 and play c5 next to clog up the double pawns, and follow up with Nbd7. That's the best looking variation of d6 since with black's pawn structure, the dark square bishop becomes all but useless. Not a bad outcome for black.
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United Kingdom2674 Posts
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was looking at this. Black is in the much better position if they pick the right moves it will be obvious in the next 3 moves.
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0-0.
was going to analyze but jfrazz pretty much summed it all well
aims
+ Show Spoiler +
safe play via
c5, d5,
if he's playing honestly, he will make a blunder sooner or later with this opening
jfrazz your rating 2251 in what ?
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On October 26 2009 21:13 PJA wrote:Show nested quote +On October 26 2009 20:08 Divinek wrote:
Yay I'm glad you saw the light! I never said it was the best move, just that it wasn't by any means a bad move. If 0-0 is played in hundreds of GM games in this exact position, but Bxc3 is practically never played, then Bxc3 is probably a bad move. I also love how you tell jfazz to watch his tone when he's correct, while you write posts like the one I'm responding to. Basically, learn how to admit when you're wrong instead of whining about someone's tone.
Bxc3 is an inferior move, it's not a bad move. That's the whole point you're missing here. I never told him to watch his tone, not once. Please read before speaking thank you.
On October 26 2009 21:59 TanGeng wrote:Yeah, BxNc3 is just wrong in this situation. + Show Spoiler +
We need to look for counter play opportunities against the space advantage that has been given to white. The double pawn on c3 would only solidify the pawn center. It's better to build up the tension first. With a3 it's different since white wastes a move by white and there are new weakness on the queen side to possibly attack.
Aims/Plans + Show Spoiler +Really it depends on the votes but I was thinking of c6 d5. I was also considering d6 N-bd7 but that would limit the dark square bishop. I'd think that it's better to begin with c5 before going to d6 and N-bd6. Still such a line would limit the dark square bishop so much that we might as well exchange it. I'll think a bit more about d5 and the other possibilities, but those are my plans right now.
Yeah, now that I think about it, if I were to play d6, I'd exchanged with Bxc3 and then play d6 and play c5 next to clog up the double pawns, and follow up with Nbd7. That's the best looking variation of d6 since with black's pawn structure, the dark square bishop becomes all but useless. Not a bad outcome for black.
+ Show Spoiler +
well im glad someone is seeing that is a reasonable play, this is the same line i gave on the previous page
6...Bxc3+ 7.bxc3 d6 8.0-0 Nbd7 9.Rb1 0-0
this works out fine for black
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Divinek is correct Bxc3 isn't a horrible losing move, but positionally it doesn't make sense, we want him to ideally waste a tempo by playing a3 or keeping the tension till he's out of that pin by castleing(or Bd2 which isn't very good). 0-0 is the play here simple and makes sense keeps options open and tension.
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I vote 0-0. Castling's always a good option! (well, not always, but you know what I mean!)
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@ Lightman - im 2251 FIDE, with one FM norm. So still a very weak player, I spend most of my time play against 10-11 year old prodigies. Very sad and depressing to be 'one of the has-beens' at 21
Responses;
To kazius
+ Show Spoiler +Your analysis is ever so slightly flawed. You are completely correct about the open b-file not been a threat to us, and that he has little recourse for disabling our development - the thing is, after castling, our development is more or less done anyway - only one knight remains unmoved, and we really want to wait before choosing its intended future (its difficult to say whether to go to a6, c6 or d7 - we really need to know more about his intentions - is he playing for an early e4-e5, a d5 break? more info required imo). There are a few tidbits I need to explain about the doubled pawns in this structure:
1) with our pawn on c5 (eventually), the doubled c-pawns arent weak - they are not on an open file, so any weakness they have comes only in the late middle game via knight play, or in an endgame where our king can invade via the weakned squares on the queenside.
2) the second c-pawn actually protects the d-pawn, removing white's dark square weaknesses in the position. To make comparison, thing of the sicilian dragon structure when white has pawns on e4 and d4 - there is lingering darksquare pressure on d4 that really slows white down (especially in the yugoslav line) - we are getting the same thing here currently. The pawns undouble when we exchange ...cxd4; so any problems he has are at best illusionary. Karpov seemed to love having his pawns doubled (he would annotate the unforced exchange of bishop for knight as ?? - blunder), so the issue, as always with the unforced exhchange is not that it loses, just that more can be done with the move.
the c6+c5 line does assume we will retreat the bishop if white never plays a3 - in which case, we sort of want the bishop because its super excellent in that pawn structure (it retreats to f8, getting out of the way and helping guard the kingside - in may lines we play ...g6 and ...Bg7 to further pressure the d4 square, making it the Schlecter Variation of the Slav)
@lightman, agreed.
TanGeng:
+ Show Spoiler +I agree with your analysis, but just wanted to mention that c5 is playable before Bxc3 if he doesnt castle on the next move. The alternative I was pushing for earlier was to play c5 before we castle ourselves, so that its never a problem, and we never have to make an unforced exchange You are fully correct on your d6-line analysis
good to see the black side really starting to work together!
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motbob
United States12546 Posts
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i have basically three options:
+ Show Spoiler +im thinking along the lines of a) 7...Bb4xNc3 then following it up with d5
b) 7...Nb8-a6 then following it up with c5
c) 7...d5 then following it up with Nb8-d7 and then c5.
meh, my fundamentals are pretty weak so i'm just gonna go with my gut
7...d7-d5
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can't we speed this up a little bit ? instead of 2 days for voting do 1 day ???
7.... d5
+ Show Spoiler +
perhaps the best move, if black wants to push for a win
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Alright, I finally have some time, ill do what analysis I can without giving myself a headache
Moves:
7...Bxc3 + Show Spoiler +8. bxc3 d6 9. white has a myriad of options:
a) 9. a4 Nc6 10. Ba3 Na5 (i should mention that Nd2 Na5 is also possible, leading to Bxb7 Nxb7 and on our next move...Qd7 with equality) - a really good line for black
b) 9. Re1 Nbd7 10. a4 a5 11. Ba3 c5 with equality
c) 9. Bg5 Nd7 I believe this position favors black, simply because he can now get rid of white's dark square bishop without any difficulty via ...h6, and remaining knight move leads to the exchange of the light square bishops, removing any opprotunity of a bishop pair advantage, and black is freeing up his position by exchanging pieces
d) 9. Qc2 is answered comfortably by d5
e) 9. Nd2 transposes to where it is mentioned above
Overall, this line actually seems really good for black, mostly due to white not really having many options for play involving his own dark square bishop (if he wants to use it early, we can force a trade off, with development for our queen), and because he has some difficulty getting the pawns rolling in the centre.
7...c7-c5 + Show Spoiler + 8. d5 Bxc3 9. bxc3 d6 10. Re1 (not dxe6 which i believe would lead to equality) ...Qc7 where I believe white has some edge, as he can now play e4 and has an easy game, lining up his queen and bishops in batteries against the kingside which has only limited defenses. I dont like this line at all
7...d7-d5 + Show Spoiler + white has soo many good options!
a) 8. Ne5 c6 (I think Nbd7 is slightly inferior, after Bg5 Be7, and now either cxd5 or Qa4) and white's options are actually a little limited now, after the strengthening move, probably best is Qa4 Be7, Rd1 Nbd7 with near equality IMO.
b) 8. cxd5 Bxc3 9. bxc3 Bxd5 10. either Bg5 or Ba3, and the position is playable
Other moves are playable, but they tend to merge into one of the above lines (eg: Qa4, Bg5) while Bf4 is independant, but only because its not very good. 7...d5 looks like a solid move
7...d7-d6 + Show Spoiler +
a) 8. Bd2 Nbd7 9. Qc2 Qe7 10. Rfd1 Bxc3 11. Bxc3 Ne4 and now either Be1? or Ng5, with a really good game for black regardless
b) 8. Qc2 Nbd7 9. I dont really see any amazing moves for white, probably Rfd1 or Bd2 with a game similar to above. 9. a3 Bxc3 10. Qxc3 Ne4 11. Qc2 f5 looks interesting I suppose
c) 8. Bg5 Nbd7 9. Qd3 Bxc3 10. bxc3 Re8 looks fine for us.
no issue with this move either!
7...h7-h6+ Show Spoiler +
a) Qc2 d5! (preferred to Bxc3, try it out!) 10. Ne5 Nbd7 11. Rfd1 Bxc3 12. Qxc3 Rab8 and black is fine.
b) Qb3 a5! (here i reference my coach, GM Christiansen) 10. Bf4 or Ne5 i suppose, as a3 sucks to Bxc3 Qxc3, ...d6 followed by Qe7 and ...e5 and black has the initiative.
this is a surprisingly good line for black, that I must say I like a lot. Its hard for white to get much going.
7...Nf6-e4 + Show Spoiler +
a) Qc2 d5! (preferred to f5 as it frees our centre) 9. Nd2 f5! and black is solid with good play
b) Nxe4 and we just exchange off some pieces...boring
Fairly interesting line, has some good opprotunity for initiative, or at least piece trading.
Whoo...after all of that, I think ill go with 7...h6, but really, they all look like good moves. Yay for us having a good position out of the opening.
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On October 27 2009 22:47 lightman wrote:
can't we speed this up a little bit ? instead of 2 days for voting do 1 day ???
Uh, no. Technically, you still have 1 day for voting, but I'm sending my moves earlier because they are quite simple to figure out at this point (and this extends your voting; see OP). So I give you more time for some in-team controversy, as well as for some members who aren't visiting this THAT often. Yet, when things will get more complicated, you can expect me to update my move after some intensive thinking, so your voting period will REALLY last around 24 hours.
So basically, I'm handing to you some time that technically belongs to me, but I won't guarantee you I will repeat this pattern all the time, especially when it will get messy.
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motbob
United States12546 Posts
noooo don't do d5... do we want white to play Ne5?
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Sanya12364 Posts
So far I like
7 ... Bxc3
7 ... d5
7 ... h6
I'll vote a little later when I analyze it a bit more.
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I vote for c5 + Show Spoiler +Yeah I read your analysis jfazz, and I agree that we are handing white a possibility to gain some, but I find the c5 line more interesting to think about . If we really want to win ...d5 or ...d6 is probably superior though.
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I vote for: 7 ... Bxc3
+ Show Spoiler +I find no fault with jfazz's analysis, and gut feeling supports it. Yet something just doesn't sit right with h7-h6, and when I play moves with that feeling I usually end up getting stomped. I thing that with Qc2 as a reply he's solid, so we should strike the iron while hot.
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On October 28 2009 00:18 Zinbiel wrote:I vote for c5 + Show Spoiler +Yeah I read your analysis jfazz, and I agree that we are handing white a possibility to gain some, but I find the c5 line more interesting to think about . If we really want to win ...d5 or ...d6 is probably superior though.
+ Show Spoiler +Hey, I'm playing to win. Don't you be ruining it... but yeah, it is interesting. I'd think it would be stronger with Bxc3 though. Then again, so would d6.
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United States24581 Posts
+ Show Spoiler +I don't like Bxc3 yet because that bishop is still serving a purpose. I also don't like d5 because we lose a central pawn and he doesn't. I'm still trying to decide what I like the best among the remaining choices.
No vote from me yet.
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@Jfazz: Is your coach Larry Christiansen from the Chessmaster series? If so that's pretty cool.
Not sure what the best option is here....
I think I'll play H7-H6 for safety.
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Yes, Larry Christiansen, the former US Chess Champion. Im a spoiled brat when it comes to online tuition.
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Sanya12364 Posts
voting for Bxc3
+ Show Spoiler +Follow up of 8. bxc3 d6 looks perfect. The Bishop on b7 is really good and the Knight going to d7 will allow either c5 or d5 depending on which weakness white decides to expose and where black chooses to double up the rooks. The light bishops should eventually be exchanged leaving white with Kingside weaknesses that the black queen is in better position to exploit.
h6 looks a little too passive and preventive if and when bishop pins the knight we can always kick it away with h6. The exchange on f6 would give the black queen a very nice active square. It looks like after d6 black has all the active play.
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United States24581 Posts
I don't like h7 because it feels like it'd be creating unnecessary space around the king... I'm gonna wait for a better time to play h7. I'm stuck between c5 (not d5) and bishop takes, but I'll go with:
c5.
+ Show Spoiler +I love being up a central pawn even though I think Bishop takes knight has some positional advantages
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motbob
+ Show Spoiler +
7.... d5
8 Ne5 is no real threat for black, nothing to worry about.
and to everyone else that want to play 7 ... Bxc3.
+ Show Spoiler +
why do you want to play Bxc3 now, if we spennt 2 days arguing about why it shouldn't be played before ?? to play Bxc3 now, it would have been played before
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United States24581 Posts
On October 28 2009 10:56 lightman wrote:motbob + Show Spoiler +
7.... d5
8 Ne5 is no real threat for black, nothing to worry about.
and to everyone else that want to play 7 ... Bxc3. + Show Spoiler +
why do you want to play Bxc3 now, if we spennt 2 days arguing about why it shouldn't be played before ?? to play Bxc3 now, it would have been played before
+ Show Spoiler +I think there is a fair bit of difference between playing it now and playing it before we both castled. It isn't a bad move now although I personally don't want to do it.
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+ Show Spoiler +
I don't see what is wrong with 7...Bxc3. It is just as sound as any of the other options we have available. In fact it is probably the most played move recently at the grandmaster level. It makes no sense to say that just because we didn't play it before that we shouldn't play it now.
I prefer 7...c5 but any of the following moves are completely viable and depend solely on the type of midgame position we want to reach: Bxc3, d5, h6. Also Qc8, Nc6, d6 have also seen play at the grandmaster level within the past 10 years or so and might be worth considering if we wish get out of opening preparations.
I vote 7...c5
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Sanya12364 Posts
On October 28 2009 10:56 lightman wrote:and to everyone else that want to play 7 ... Bxc3. + Show Spoiler +
why do you want to play Bxc3 now, if we spennt 2 days arguing about why it shouldn't be played before ?? to play Bxc3 now, it would have been played before
+ Show Spoiler +I'm prepared to play d6 and the bishop becomes useless. Castling also allows us to now immediately support the e pawn. Black will have the option of creating play along e or c files. A lot of these moves look equally good now, I could also support d5 or h6, although I think h6 is better.
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On October 28 2009 11:53 O-ops wrote:I vote Bxc3 + Show Spoiler +With the idea of d5 and then Nd7
I vote Bxc3
+ Show Spoiler + d5 would not be as good a continuation because it then allows his knight to take the beautiful e5 square, a much better follow up is d6, this would makes blacks position slightly better
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Bxc3 still does nothing, please change your vote, it can retreat to e7 at anytime right now, and it is the positionally correct continuation. the double pawns support the center so they are not even nearly as significant as giving up the bishop pair. c5? a3. now Bxc3 forced and we are still giving up the bishops, because cxd4, axb4, dxc3 bxc3 is comfortable for white, once again, getting bishop pair
and a well placed rook and an open file for attacking the a pawn in later game. This is still just theory, so please do not c5 either.... I like solid d5, nd7, be7 c5 setup, with possible qc7, rac8, etc. i vote d5.
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besides not being able to read you should really put analysis in spoilers
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Why I like...Bxc3+ Show Spoiler +I quite like ...Bxc3 in the current position, for the reasons given by Tangeng. The dark square bind AND the doubled pawns is quite a nice grab for giving up the dark square bishop. We probably wouldnt want to exchange our c-pawn for the d-pawn in that line though, instead we would want to play for an eventual e5 and really grip those dark squares, then focus on making more out of our knights than white can out of his bishops. See many of the Dzindihasvilli or Christiansen games in this line for examples (its a Nimzo-Indian, uncommon 4th white moves, E13 i believe)
Bxc3 is better now that previously, because of the castling. White can move the knight next turn, then play a3, and we are at a timing disadvantage, over the lines where we take. We are only disadvantaged if white plays EXACTLY that line, but why give him the option? Thats how the argument runs.
A little more on ...h6+ Show Spoiler +yes its a slow move, but what exactly can white do? He is very limited in options, and rapid exchanges from here just lead to a draw. White is forced to play very riskily and creatively to play for an edge, which is great, because we could just defend than when an endgame. Its a boring line though, I admit
GO BLACK!
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everyone here seems so intent on playing a boring, drawish game :S why not spice things up a bit, take some risks and hope that we can win the game from a complicated position?
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drawish and boring is kinda the point of a QID/NID Depends on your mentality I guess, I really enjoy the complex struggle these sort of positions create.
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Guys, you should make up your mind quickly. Currently, Bxc3 leads by a margin of two votes, but has 5 votes only. I'm writing it only because we have that divided opinions for the first time and last-moment votes may turn the outcome upside down.
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United States2186 Posts
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On October 29 2009 09:21 proberecall wrote:
7.... d5
You have one post so I doubt you are on the 2nd team....
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On October 29 2009 10:21 D4L[invd] wrote:
Ne5
What he said
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So eventually, Bxc3 was played. Time for your next move now!
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the time is ripe for the advance in the center
EDIT:
8...d6
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I vote for: 8... d7-d6
+ Show Spoiler +The move is too flexible. Seems nearly obvious really. That way, to nearly any move we can reply with Nbd7, which gives us a myriad of goodies. A lot of good, natural moves for us. We're doing well.
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Ill be back with some hard analysis later this evening. Keep up the good work black team.
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Hehe I forgot the analysis I had already done.
8...d6 please. For the reasons I gave on page 16, and due to the opinion of Kazius.
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I vote 8. ... d6 it is a really smooth move.
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On October 29 2009 17:04 unknown.sam wrote:the time is ripe for the advance in the center 8...d5 + Show Spoiler +
lol this has been my move now for the past few moves. hopefully this time it will get consideration. on another note, i think 8...c5 wouldn't be such a bad option either
+ Show Spoiler +
ill just quote what i said last time someone offered this move, it's bad.
d5 would not be as good a continuation because it then allows his knight to take the beautiful e5 square, a much better follow up is d6, this would makes blacks position slightly better
c5 is also worse because even after dxc5 making his pawns tripled it gives his queen control of the open file, and now we practically must recapture anyway with the pawn creating an isolated pawn and a big weakness, like them being able to easily take the open b file etc.
I vote 8...d6
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yeah. 8...d6 really seems like the more flexible move. so i'll change my vote lol
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8..... d6.
vetxel, out of curiosity, what would you have played if 7...d5 would have won ?
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Sanya12364 Posts
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8..................... d6
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I vote 8...d6.
+ Show Spoiler +
Not much to choose from here. Only other candidate move is Be4 which has never really been popular although can be played for its element of surprise.
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I vote 8...d7-d6
+ Show Spoiler +It's a positionally strong move. It doesn't threaten anything directly, but there's no need to go on a frenzy just yet!
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l10f
United States3241 Posts
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i think we can all agree on d6 here
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what about the other knight? b8 to c6 ?
or maybe to a6?
+ Show Spoiler +
Doesn't the knight control more space faster? We can move the pawn up next turn or something.
I can see that we would be blocking out bishop holding the knight in that spot if we moved to c6 but what about a6?
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I think d5 is much superior to d6
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looks like 8...d6 will have it.
to CharlieMurphy
+ Show Spoiler +yes it does, but the pawn controls more IMPORTANT squares faster, if that makes sense. The knight can go to a6 or to d7, depending on what we want to do, and depending on what Vekzel plays. By delaying its move, we can make the best possible move at the best possible time.
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motbob
United States12546 Posts
All the analysis on d6 is pretty vague :\ could someone be more specific?
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on page 16 i give quite a bit of it, just look at what follows from the 7...Bxc3 spoiler. Hope that helps.
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actually I just want to say my analysis of the line 8...d6 9. Qc2 is wrong on page 16, it should be
+ Show Spoiler +9...Nbd7 and now
a) Bg5 (h6 or Qc8 both lead to good games for black, but Qc8 doesnt create any weaknesses and promotes a faster c5, as in the line 10...Qc8 11. Bxf6 Nxf6 12. Nd2 Bxg2 13. Kxg2 c5 where black is at least equal, probably better. Black will not exchange cxd4. If white does, black captures away from the centre with dxc5, to create an open file and to fully blockade the isolated pawns. The queen can then pressure them via a6, while the f6 knight can always eye the crucial e4 square)
b) Nd2 Bxg2 11. Kxg2 and now Qe7 or e5, ill give examples of both:
b1) 11...Qe7 12. e4 e5 13. d5 Nc5 and black is super groovy
b2) 11...e5 12. Ba3 Re8 13. e4 c5 14. f4 cxd4 15. cxd4 exd4 16. Bxd6 Ng4 and Black will get a brutal outposted knight, so white will have to give up the exchange.
c) e3 Rb8 11. a4 a5 12. Ba3 Ba6 13. Nd2 e5 14. Re1 Re8 with a pretty equal middlegame.
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In short, d6 is a good move because it supports a c5 push which locks white's doubled pawns on the c file.
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sorry, was away for a while, grats for the rtards that voted Nc3. d6 is fine now, that is my final answer.
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Uggh. I hate playing passively like this.
I vote d7 - d5, attack attack attack!
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On October 30 2009 17:55 MuffinDude wrote:
Uggh. I hate playing passively like this.
I vote d7 - d5, attack attack attack!
+ Show Spoiler +
as opposed to letting him fix his pawn structure and weakening our king side with a move like that?
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On October 30 2009 17:55 MuffinDude wrote:
Uggh. I hate playing passively like this.
I vote d7 - d5, attack attack attack!
+ Show Spoiler +
7.... d5
8 cxd5 Nxd5 (or exd5)
and white no longer has doubled pawns and now has better position
black has weakened his defense and has questionable position.
so the "attack, attack,attack!", sounds more like "let's lose, let's lose, let's lose!"
dude how many moves ahead can you look when you play ? like 0 ??
just kidding.
jfrazz question....
why not :
+ Show Spoiler +
8.... Ne4
9 Qc2 f5!
10 Nd2 d5
black has an attacking position here riight ??
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Sanya12364 Posts
Don't be mean. Spoiler analysis. Respect other people's impulses to play an interesting but perhaps losing game.
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On October 30 2009 23:00 lightman wrote:Show nested quote +On October 30 2009 17:55 MuffinDude wrote:
Uggh. I hate playing passively like this.
I vote d7 - d5, attack attack attack! + Show Spoiler +
7.... d5
8 cxd5 Nxd5 (or exd5)
and white no longer has doubled pawns and now has better position
black has weakened his defense and has questionable position.
so the "attack, attack,attack!", sounds more like "let's lose, let's lose, let's lose!" dude how many moves ahead can you look when you play ? like 0 ?? just kidding. jfrazz question.... why not : + Show Spoiler +
8.... Ne4
9 Qc2 f5!
10 Nd2 d5
black has an attacking position here riight ??
+ Show Spoiler + i know your question is for him but i wanna take a stab at it to see if im anything close to what he would say!
After that sequence can't the attack just be neutralized by like
10 Nxe4 fxe4
11 f3 exf3
12 bxf3
And now white is the one far more posturing for an attack
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motbob
United States12546 Posts
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motbob
United States12546 Posts
+ Show Spoiler +well we gotta protect against a4-a5 and it seems like by far the best way to do that is Nb8-c6, so that's my vote
I vote Nb8-c6
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I vote 9...Nb8-c6
+ Show Spoiler +
9.a4 is an error on Vekzel's part. Black has at least equalized and has more winning chances now.
9...Nc6
10. Nd2 Na5
11. Bxb7 Nxb7
and there are many weaknesses to exploit in White's position
9...a5 followed by 10...Nbd7 can also be considered.
9...Nbd7 is also viable but complicates things by allowing 10. a5
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Per my earlier analysis, I like 9...Nb8-Nc6.
For lightman, sort of yes, but its an attack that does't really go anywhere. You do get an amazing knight, but he is easily traded off, and after moves like a4 and then Ba3 and the suggestings from Divinek such as f3, White just has as easier position to play and the bishops really start to show their strength. kramink won a famous game against Anand from a similar position to that, arising out of one of his famous catalan openings.
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On October 31 2009 10:11 Divinek wrote:Show nested quote +On October 30 2009 23:00 lightman wrote:On October 30 2009 17:55 MuffinDude wrote:
Uggh. I hate playing passively like this.
I vote d7 - d5, attack attack attack! + Show Spoiler +
7.... d5
8 cxd5 Nxd5 (or exd5)
and white no longer has doubled pawns and now has better position
black has weakened his defense and has questionable position.
so the "attack, attack,attack!", sounds more like "let's lose, let's lose, let's lose!" dude how many moves ahead can you look when you play ? like 0 ?? just kidding. jfrazz question.... why not : + Show Spoiler +
8.... Ne4
9 Qc2 f5!
10 Nd2 d5
black has an attacking position here riight ??
+ Show Spoiler + i know your question is for him but i wanna take a stab at it to see if im anything close to what he would say!
After that sequence can't the attack just be neutralized by like
10 Nxe4 fxe4
11 f3 exf3
12 bxf3
And now white is the one far more posturing for an attack
+ Show Spoiler +No idea how 10. Nxe4 is. A better response for white would be 10. Ng5! with deciding gain of material. + Show Spoiler + You might think g5 is defended by black knight. If black moves the knight away he is in trouble. 10... Nxg5 11. Bxb7!
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Sanya12364 Posts
Nc6
+ Show Spoiler +Have to prevent a5 in this case and knight probably reroutes to a5 to hit c4 given this opportunity.
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I vote for: 9... Nc6
+ Show Spoiler +Which will probably be replied with by Nd2, and then Na5, Bxb7and Nxb7, and clearly, we are looking good here.
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l10f
United States3241 Posts
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I like Nb8-c6 too. that's my vote.
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Im a little busy right now, but ill try to do another detailed analysis dump later this evening. Is anyone finding them helpful at all?
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+ Show Spoiler +If someone could explain to me... why not Nd7 here? Nc6 blocks off the bishop, right?
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Sanya12364 Posts
Zozma
+ Show Spoiler +If it was any other move we could use Nbd7 and push e5. That approach looks better. White really doesn't have much play on those lines. With a5, the timing is different since with a5 white threatens to open up the queenside.
Black should immediately stop white a5. But we still want to protect the b6 pawn with a7 since black c5 might still be necessary. In this case, the knight comes out to take control of a5. A5 is also a logical spot for the knight, hitting the c4 pawn with the possibility of going to b3 as well. We may have to give up some time trading the light squared bishops, but the play is solid.
Also to note in this position, the white d pawn does not have a very strong threat to exchange with any other pawns. If white exchanges by capturing with the d pawn, white is left with isolated double pawns on the C file and will need a lot of compensation for that.
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Ok here is my analysis on 9...Nc6:
+ Show Spoiler +a) 10.Nd2 Na5 11. Bxb7 Nxb7 and now
a1) Nb3 Qd7 (though without going too deeply, d5 and c5 both look very playable, and offer better winning chances) 13. Qd3 d5 and Black has a significant positional edge imo
a2) e4 Nd7 (Na5 with the idea of immediately pressuring c4 looks playable as well, Black will attempt to play heavily on the dark squares on this line with both e5 and c5 and no exchanges, strengthed by moves like Re8.) 13. f4 f5 and Black has a slightly better middle game leading into an endgame.
a3) Ba3 Re8 13. Nb3 Qd7 And I think white has very little in the position. Black can just move his rooks to the e-file, infiltrate his queen onto the queenside to the c6 square so as to attack the c4 pawn, coupled with Na5 as necessary, then just do the usual dark square play with c5 and e5. Great line for black IMO.
b) 10. c5 Na5 11. Bf4 Qd7 and White looks silly
c) 10. Bg5 h6 11. Bxf6 Qxf6 12. Nd2 Na5 and it more or less becomes line a) in some fashion, albeit with White giving up his bishop pair for no reasons, other than forcing the move h6...good line for black I would think, especially as white's play for any advantage is certainly over.
d) 10. Ba3 Na5 11. c5 Ne4 12. cxd6 cxd6 13. Qd3 Rc8 and the game looks even. I feel this is white's best play for an advantage from this position, as it keeps as many pieces on the board as possible, while making the most of white's most important piece - his unopposed dark square bishop. This line should be, overall, drawish, but complex with a slight pull for white.
Let me know if I missed anything / made any mistakes.
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9..Nc6 we need to develop
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ya 9...Nc6 looks good so that's my vote
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On November 01 2009 08:39 jfazz wrote:
Im a little busy right now, but ill try to do another detailed analysis dump later this evening. Is anyone finding them helpful at all?
I'm finding them very enlightening - you pick up on a few possibilities I miss. I just set up the pieces on the board and play out on other variations to what your analysis gives... so while my analysis isn't quite as accurate as yours, with yours I can develop a much deeper feel for the positions (and it helped me develop my game, first time I actually trounced a 1850 ELO player was very recently - up until now my wins against that caliber of players would always be from what seemed like a grueling nightmare world from which I somehow managed to claw out of).
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jfazz, that is nice, i especially agree with the comment about the unopposed light squared bishop. Lets do Nc6 if everyone wants it
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The notion that changed my game, more than anything, was "don't sweat the little stuff". As a general rule in chess, it is amazing. When doing your calculation focus on the most forcing variations you can imagine - that way, if your opponent does not opt for one of those lines, your own forcing moves will quickly steal the initiative.
Counter-inutitive as this may be, that logic is even more powerful in slow grinding positions, because it all takes small, strengthening moves to completely change the position to your advantage, so the practice you have in deep calculation comes out.
Gogo 9...Nc6!
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Canada8028 Posts
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Because then white plays a5 and undermines our queenside, creating serious weaknesses in both the middle game and endgame. It also does not develop a piece. Finally, c5 followed by cxd4 is no longer a legitimate threat in the position.
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On November 02 2009 06:36 SOB_Maj_Brian wrote:Why is c5 being so overlooked? + Show Spoiler +edit: forgot spoiler
+ Show Spoiler +Because the queen-side attack is possible (a5) without wasting time on rerouting via Nd2. Nc6 forces him to either abandon the queen-side temporarily which leaves us in a solid position, or we trade off the white square bishops then his other bishop is not as useful in the offensive due to the pawn structure and our solid defense, giving him very limited tactical possibilities. c5 might be useful later, but if we reroute our bishop to b7 first, it would make it even more possible, and this is the most logical line from here anyways. So yay us :D
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9....... Nbd7
+ Show Spoiler +
10 a5! Qe7
11 axb6 a7xb6
12 RxR RxR
although I know my option will not win, I think and I agree on 9.. Nc6 is fine too, but me personally me, I would play 9... Nbd7
the reason why I don't like 9.. Nc6 is because I think maybe white will try
+ Show Spoiler +
9 a4 Nc6
10 c5 ! Na5
11 Ba3 Ne4
12 cxd6 cxd6
or any of those variations
pretty much evening both center and queenside. and the game looks with no advantage for either white or black.
I may be incorrect or wrong in my analysis, my QID play is weaker at this point than my QGD or Slav, please feel free to fix or input suggestions
question:
what if
+ Show Spoiler +
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Sanya12364 Posts
analysis
10 c5
10 d5
+ Show Spoiler +
both get responded to with 10. ... Na5 hitting the c4 square. I'm not sure what the plan is with on the c5 line is with 11. Ba3 but I'd play 11. ... dxc5 winning a pawn. White can trade 12 dxc5 Qxd1 13. Rxd1 Nb3 and that preserves black's queen side pawn structure.
as for d5 I don't see what stops black from playing e5 one turn later. After that Ba6 hitting the c4 pawn a second time and then black can reroute knight to c4. With the deadlock in the center, white will have to deal with that knight or trade his good bishop (dark) to get rid of it..
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Sorry Guys for delay, I've been away for two days. Now it's updated!
3... 2... 1... VOTING!
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Sanya12364 Posts
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10...Na5
+ Show Spoiler +I do not see the purpose of 10. Rb1; the most immediate threat is the line
a) 10. Rb1 Na5 11. c5, to which we can play either
a1) 11...Qe7 12. cxd6 cxd6, followed up by moves like either (Rac8 and Nd5 to assault the backwards c3 pawn, but perhaps prefaced by Ba6 to pressure and pin the e2 pawn, as well as momentarily tie down his queen?) or alteratively, play for a knight outpost on c4, after trading out light square bishop for his f3 knight, to prevent the exchange Nd2-xc4, then play d5 to solidify our centre and lock out his light bishop. that c4 knight could be quite the monster going into an endgame, especially against a tame bishop. Ba3 is not a posible counter now that the Rook is no longer on a1, due to Nc4 coming with tempo.
b) 11...dxc5 12. dxc5 and now:
b1) 12...Be4 13. Ra1 Nd5 14. Bb2 (or d2, very similar lines) Nc4 15. Qc1 bxc6 and we win a pawn and control of the b-file for our rooks. Note any rook move now wins a tempo as it his the bishop again.
ill do more later, its a public holiday here
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I vote 10...Nc6-a5
jfrazz: + Show Spoiler + If 11. c5 then Be4 seems better than Qe7
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the order of my analysis doesn't denote preference, just the order i do the analysis in my head I agree with you.
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l10f
United States3241 Posts
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After watching the match between Kasparov and the world I am feeling slightly pessimistic about our chances. That was an amazing game.
Nc6-a5
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On November 04 2009 08:49 Athos wrote:
After watching the match between Kasparov and the world I am feeling slightly pessimistic about our chances. That was an amazing game.
Nc6-a5 I don't think Vekzel will take it as an insult if I say that we have a slightly better chance against him than we would against Kasparov.
I guess I'll vote for Nc6-a5 along with everyone else.
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Sanya12364 Posts
On November 04 2009 08:49 Athos wrote:
After watching the match between Kasparov and the world I am feeling slightly pessimistic about our chances. That was an amazing game.
Nc6-a5
To be fair, the World team had a bunch of big egos that distracted from their play. As long as we don't flame each other crazily, we should be able to stay focused on the analysis.
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On November 04 2009 08:49 Athos wrote:
After watching the match between Kasparov and the world I am feeling slightly pessimistic about our chances. That was an amazing game.
Democracy doesn't work :p for chess, at least.
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It also REALLY didnt help that they played a sicilian, that Kasparov is an expert in, yet none of the World Team were...makes perfect sense right?
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Sanya12364 Posts
Kasparov avoided the main line though because he wanted to use his prepared analysis during serious matches instead. It would have been interesting to see a Najdorf Defense.
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On November 04 2009 08:49 Athos wrote:
After watching the match between Kasparov and the world I am feeling slightly pessimistic about our chances. That was an amazing game.
Nc6-a5
I'm not Kasparov, and I guess you are much more solid opponent than random crowd of people from all over the world. Anyway, new move is up, let's vote for a response. BTW, nice consensus on your side!
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+ Show Spoiler +
I'm really liking trading off the bishops at this point to expose his king alittle more and open up the board for our rooks/queen. Give them open files and such so something like
11..Bxg2 12. Kxg2 d5 13. cxd5 exd5
makes it alot easier to start mounting an attack on his kingside
probably vote after i think it over more and see what others have to say
Yeah I'll still vote Bxg2
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VERY IMPORTANT analysis in spoilers. Please everyone take a moment to look it over for me, I do not want to have made a mistake. Respond with your thoughts on it if you will.+ Show Spoiler +Basically, I am at a crossroads in this position. If we exchange bishops ourselves, we more or less transpose to line a) of my 9...Nc6 analysis, except that instead of a move like Nb3, e4 or Ba3, white will instead of played Kxg2 and we still have a knight pressuring the c4 pawn.
Is this good?
Lets think:
11...Bxg2 12. Kxg2 c5! 13. e4 cxd4 14. cxd4 Qc7 15. Ba3 Nc6 16. Bb2 gives in my opinion, a small advantage to black with best play.
taking that as the mainline, we could also play
a) 12...Qc8 13. e4 c5 14. Qc2 e5 15. Bb2 Nc6 16. Nf3 Qa6 17. dxc5 dxc5 18. Nd2 Rad8 19. Rfd1 Ne8 and white looks lost
b) 12...d5 13. cxd5 Qxd5+ 14. Kg1 c5 15. e3 Rac8 16. Ba3 Rcd8 with a small advantage to black
So now we know that 11...Bxg2 is a great move, but can we do better?
I cannot see any improvements for us over 11...Bxg2 that will not transpose to an inferior version of the above lines.
Please someone check my analysis, this is an important move!
11...Bxg2 for now, subject to change.
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+ Show Spoiler +
Your er first line seems a bit better for white actually
it would come out okay if you instead played something like
11...Bxg2 12. Kxg2 c5! 13. e4 cxd4 14. cxd4 Qc7 15. Ba3 Rfe8 16.Qe2
But I think even better in this line might be
11...Bxg2 12. Kxg2 c5! 13. e4 Re8! 14. Qe2 Qc7 15. Rd1 cxd4 16. cxd4
Which puts black in quite a good position, the best out of any of the lines mentioned so far I think.
So many pawn weakness have opened up and the c file is under heavy assault. His king is going to be in immediate danger here as well.
But maybe you see more in that first line you mentioned afterwards that I'm missing?
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well, I would envision my first line continuing:
+ Show Spoiler +16...e5! 17. d5 Na5 and Black has a little pull. Its nothing crazy, but that backwards c-pawn sure looks tasty, and we could also bring a knight to c5 via d7. White has little to no counter-play - we might not win but we should not lose either. Perhaps something like 18. Rc1 Nd7 19. f4 f6 20. Kg1 Qc5+ 21. Rf2 exf4 22. gxf4 f5 and white's king comes under attack.
your second line is really good I agree. Im still drawn to my line a) though, that looks crushing.
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Sanya12364 Posts
On November 04 2009 20:11 jfazz wrote:+ Show Spoiler +Basically, I am at a crossroads in this position. If we exchange bishops ourselves, we more or less transpose to line a) of my 9...Nc6 analysis, except that instead of a move like Nb3, e4 or Ba3, white will instead of played Kxg2 and we still have a knight pressuring the c4 pawn.
Is this good?
Lets think:
11...Bxg2 12. Kxg2 c5! 13. e4 cxd4 14. cxd4 Qc7 15. Ba3 Nc6 16. Bb2 gives in my opinion, a small advantage to black with best play.
taking that as the mainline, we could also play
a) 12...Qc8 13. e4 c5 14. Qc2 e5 15. Bb2 Nc6 16. Nf3 Qa6 17. dxc5 dxc5 18. Nd2 Rad8 19. Rfd1 Ne8 and white looks lost
b) 12...d5 13. cxd5 Qxd5+ 14. Kg1 c5 15. e3 Rac8 16. Ba3 Rcd8 with a small advantage to black
So now we know that 11...Bxg2 is a great move, but can we do better?
I cannot see any improvements for us over 11...Bxg2 that will not transpose to an inferior version of the above lines.
Please someone check my analysis, this is an important move!
+ Show Spoiler +
Basically I have no problems with Bxg2. As for the succession lines, I'd put the rooks in position before I open up the lines for an attack and wouldn't make the pawn exchanges on d4.
12 Kxg2 c5 13 e4 Rc8
we go into some complicated maneuvering after that but black has the small advantage. White d5 is coming soon.
12 Kxg2 .Qc8 13. e4 c5 14. Ba3 Re8 15. Qc2
that give a similar situation to you mainline without pawn exchanges and with black's Queen in slightly inferior position. Good thing about Queen on c8 is that without the pawn exchanges it can go to a6 to grab that pawn. White has to play d5 soon or lose in this line. That will shield the weak pawn on d6
12. Kxg2 d5 13. cxd5 Qxd5+ f3
f3 looks like the best response from white and now can play e4.
All the pawn exchanges look bad for which ever side that forced it.
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Just a question, most likely for Vekzel.
Can I discuss this game and the moves with you (the team), even if I'm not signed up for the team? I should note that I'm certain some of the players already on the team are far better than I.
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On November 04 2009 21:38 hefty wrote:
Just a question, most likely for Vekzel.
Can I discuss this game and the moves with you (the team), even if I'm not signed up for the team? I should note that I'm certain some of the players already on the team are far better than I.
Yes you can. On one condition: put your analysis in spoilers!
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I vote for: 11...Bxg2
+ Show Spoiler +At the moment the night on a5 is great and makes c5 seem a natural progression, but I'm busy giving thought as to when we can mobilize it a bit since the rook on the b rank is annoyingly limiting. I don't like the thought that if he clears up the board a bit his bishop might come to life. Luckily, he can only do that with a pawn sacrifice at the moment, but he will have better options once he moves to e4.
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Sanya12364 Posts
Bxg2.
+ Show Spoiler + It's a trade of the good b7 bishop for the bishop guarding the light squares around the king. Trading it this way, black could gain a tempo when the Queen goes on the long diagonal. Also keeping the knight on a5 locks white's d2 knight for now and that will mean white's dark square bishop will not have much place to go.
My plan is to build up some tension in the center by play c5 now, and building up tension by placing rooks on e8 and c8. White will have to respond to the threats of discovered attacks on his pawns.
If white locks the pawn structure with d5, then we should be able to manuveur the black knights to our advantage. Reroute the C rook to e7 and then open up the E file with exd5.
Overall we have a slight advantage but with perfect play, it'll be drawish.
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agree , Bxg2 is a good move
+ Show Spoiler +exposes his king and gives us slightly more place to manouver in the middle
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Bxg2
+ Show Spoiler +I just can't find a better move here. If this was a game of blizz, I would take the piece without hesitating at all.
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+ Show Spoiler +jfazz: In the a-line, what of 14 Qc2 e5 15 d5 ? That seems like it leaves the game equal to me. Or even if 14 Qc2 e5 15 Bb2 Nc6 16 d5 seems more likely to me. I guess I'm probably just missing something, though.
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I am not playing the current game, but on vekzel's post of others offering analysis, I'd like to offer some (even if not the best or most common).
+ Show Spoiler +I know alot of you are pushing the Bxg2, but what about 11. ...d5! 12. cxd5 Bxd5 13. Bxd5 Nxd5 means he has to respond by Qc2, Bb2, or Ne4 (which you could ...f5 to attack the knight, making the fork still happen) to protect the fork from the Nxc3.
If he does 12. c5 respond with ...Ne4 to make him defend the pawn (with 13. Nxe4 dxe4), or trade his last knight with a strong black pawn on e4. Can follow up with small pawn trades of 14. cxb3 cxb3 15. f3 possible, but you could trade pawns there or counter with 15. ...f5 16. fxe4 fxe4 17. rxf8 qxf8 for some even trades and weakening his king side while bringing your queen to an open file.
While i think Bxg2 is a good move, I think ...d5 could be a nice move as well.
edit: changed certain move numbers as i missed counted
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@ Zozma;
+ Show Spoiler +In line a), the move 15. d5 is of a somewhat limited value for white. Firstly, he souces of counterplay are now extremely limited, and his c4-pawn is weak forever. I would meat 15. d5 with:
15...Qg4!? with the intention of generating an attack on the white king AND pressuring the e4 pawn (and thus indirectly reinvigorating the attack upon the c4 pawn, due the having the same piece guarding them).
Now;
16. f3 Qg6 17. Bb2 Nh5 18. Kh1 f5 19. Qd3 fxe4 20. fxe4 Rad8 with yeah, a pretty even middle game, but a better endgame for Black; in an endgame, white will have weaknesses on c4, c3 and e4. Black's only weakness is d6, which white cannot access.
There are perhaps even better moves for Black, but that endgame looks very hard for white to hold
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actually, you can more or less force the aove line to continue:
+ Show Spoiler +21. Rbe1 Qg5 22. Rxf8+ Rxf8 23. Rf1 Rxf1+ 24. Nxf1 Qg4 25. h4 Nf6 26. Kg2 Qd7 27. Ne3 Qxa4 28. Kg1 Qd7 And black has a strategically won game
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Sanya12364 Posts
On November 05 2009 05:57 Alventenie wrote:I am not playing the current game, but on vekzel's post of others offering analysis, I'd like to offer some (even if not the best or most common). + Show Spoiler +I know alot of you are pushing the Bxg2, but what about 11. ...d5! 12. cxd5 Bxd5 13. Bxd5 Nxd5 means he has to respond by Qc2, Bb2, or Ne4 (which you could ...f5 to attack the knight, making the fork still happen) to protect the fork from the Nxc3.
If he does 12. c5 respond with ...Ne4 to make him defend the pawn (with 13. Nxe4 dxe4), or trade his last knight with a strong black pawn on e4. Can follow up with small pawn trades of 14. cxb3 cxb3 15. f3 possible, but you could trade pawns there or counter with 15. ...f5 16. fxe4 fxe4 17. rxf8 qxf8 for some even trades and weakening his king side while bringing your queen to an open file.
While i think Bxg2 is a good move, I think ...d5 could be a nice move as well.
edit: changed certain move numbers as i missed counted
+ Show Spoiler +Why even bother moving c pawn? Black can't take on c4. But should white take on c4 black should respond with exd5 in which case we have equality. Against 12... Bxd5?!, White has 13. e4!
Now the white knight on d2 is beautifully positioned and white has Ba3 lines for his dark squared bishop.
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BUMP. Go Guys, Move Has Been MADE.
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I vote d7d5
+ Show Spoiler +I really don't like white's prospect of playing e2e4 and then f2f4 here.
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I vote QD7
+ Show Spoiler +Threatens the A4 pawn and allows a potential tempo gain. If anybody sees can explain a better move I'll probably change my vote lol. I'm kinda an impatient player, and I tend to miss a lot of waiting, building moves.
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I vote Re8
+ Show Spoiler +Finish development, has to be played eventually. Qd7 does not look too bad either, connecting the Rocks and binding the white queen because of the pawn at a4. I just feel that d7 is a good field for our Knight, if it has to retreat via e2-e4 and follow-ups
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+ Show Spoiler +
Seeing as jfazz already pointed out 12.. c5! and i agreed with it... might analyze the follows up above me to show why they're weak
Re8 seems fine here because yeah it'll be needed anyways, it might even be better in some lines.
But Qd7 seems ew cause any follow he can play with e4 kind of equalizes the position
i vote 12..c5
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it's positions like this that give me the toughest time (i.e. no clear plan/strategy)
+ Show Spoiler +i guess the only moves i can think of here are 12...Rf8-e8, 12...d5 and 12...c5. with 12...c5 he may reply with either 13. e2-e4, 13. e2-e3. with either reply i think a decent follow would be to apply pressure to the c-file and his cpawn by 13...cxd4 14.cxd4 Ra8-c8 followed by Qc7 etc.
i vote 12...c5
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motbob
United States12546 Posts
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I vote 12...c5
+ Show Spoiler + We are not sure we want our rook on the e file yet. After e4 e5, the rook will probably have to switch to another file with a loss of tempo. In fact some lines will involving pushing the f pawn so the rook is better where it is right now.
With regards to Qc8...we don't really need this preparation move in order to push c5. Also it will require moving the queen again before being able to move the a-file rook to a centralized file later.
Edit: Changed move choice to c5
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For everyone angling for a move that is not Qc8 or c5, please read the ;
+ Show Spoiler +12...c5 or 12...Qc8 - both are heavily analysed in one of my previous posts, on the last page.
Simply, 12...Qd7 acts in a similar fashion to Qc8, but with less overall effect - the Queen on c8 promotes a very strong c5 break, and allows the queen to move to b7 or a6 as necessary. She can then also quickly mobilise to the kingside after we play e5.
sample line: 13. e4 c5 14. Qc2 e5 15. Bb2 Nc6 16. Nf3 Qa6 17. dxc5 dxc5 18. Nd2 Rad8 19. Rfd1 Qc8 and Black has a dominating position.
12...c5 has already been heavily analysed, and is indeed a great move. I won't reiterate the points of others, but suffice it to say, I think the Qc8 lines offer more in the long run.
Why not Re8? We do not yet know for certain, until a few more central pawn moves are made, what the best file for the rooks are. It would be ill advised to move a rook at this point then. We may want to push the f-file pawn, so that rook shouldn't move, and the other may be needed for the c-file. Best to wait.
d5 is overzelous, as shown by my previous analysis - we want to play against his dark square bishop and make it as bad as possible - so the pawn chain c5-d6-e5 best achieves this, basically wasting that piece. Our knight pair could then have a SIGNIFICANT edge over his knight-bishop in an endgame.
Per my previous analysis, and after much thought, I would prefer to play 12...Qc8
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motbob
United States12546 Posts
It seems like black is sort of... fated to play c5 eventually so I'd like to play it now and do all our queen/rook positioning in response to whatever white does.
12...c5
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Ok, I change my vote to QC8.
+ Show Spoiler +
I can see that it is slightly stronger than D7 and we can always move it to b7.
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I vote 12...c7-c5.
+ Show Spoiler +It's the move I'd play, Qc8 is too complicated for me
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Im not in the team but i see that "outsiders" are free to comment so...
+ Show Spoiler +On November 06 2009 19:49 jfazz wrote:
we want to play against his dark square bishop and make it as bad as possible - so the pawn chain c5-d6-e5 best achieves this, basically wasting that piece. Our knight pair could then have a SIGNIFICANT edge over his knight-bishop in an endgame
I like the idea of playing c5 because it takes advantage of black's better pawn formation but i don't see how his dark square bishop will get weaker if you give it more targets. oO
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12 ..... Qc8
+ Show Spoiler + we have finished early game and have now entered mid game, so safe play is a must
With this move we solidify our C line as well as the E diagonal.
eventually the next move should be c5, but at this point I do not wish to be the first one to tempt the attack on c5, d5 squares
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+ Show Spoiler +I favour d5. Continuing with jfazz line posted earlier we get:
13. cxd5 Qxd5+ 14. f3 Qc6
Now the white f-pawn is pinned and we threaten Ng4 while simultaneously attacking the c-pawn. We should be up a pawn if this line is continued.
I vote d5.
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I'll also vote for 12...Qd8-c8.
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Sanya12364 Posts
12... Rc8
+ Show Spoiler +
I would like the Queen to watch over d6 in this position since it prevents white's attack against Black's weakest point. For that reason. The Rook support of the C pawn is superior.
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@ altair
+ Show Spoiler +are you serious? with the c5-d6-e5 pawn chain, and white having no real way to break it down, how can you not see how greatly limited white's dark square bishop is, when compared to black's opposing knight?
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Q-d8-c8.
+ Show Spoiler +
Seems to make sense at first glance (little more than that) clears the D file for your rooks and puts pressure on the weak c-pawn. It happens to be very difficult to defend.
Second glance: e4, Q-a6, Q-e2 works nicely. But it's not like planning to push the centre is right for black yet. I'd sit back and prepare slightly more while keeping 3 pieces locked up with the C pawn. (Bishop can't get a decent square either with the knight tied down.)
Third glance: e4 Qb7! Qe2 Qc6! a pawn I think.
Fourth glance: Oh damn!, based on the last page somebody probably posted analysis on Qc8 already =[ Appears they missed (or i missed something too) the Qb7 line perhaps.
Although: e4 Qb7 R-e1 Q-c6 R-b4?! might work.
Then R-e8, e5, Ra-d8 being the next moves perhaps?
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OK Guys, right now Qc8 has only 2 vote advantage over c5. Time to make your mind! 
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On November 07 2009 16:23 jfazz wrote:@ altair + Show Spoiler +are you serious? with the c5-d6-e5 pawn chain, and white having no real way to break it down, how can you not see how greatly limited white's dark square bishop is, when compared to black's opposing knight?
+ Show Spoiler +You mean the a5 knight, on the side of the board? Sorry but that bishop seems ok to me. No need to explain further though lets just see how this plays out.
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United Kingdom2674 Posts
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I vote for: ... Qd8-c8
+ Show Spoiler +After reading the analysis, I concur that this is a slightly stronger move than c5, I am still not feeling too hot about our a-file though. c5 will happen anyways, unless Vezkel intends to surprise us all.
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l10f
United States3241 Posts
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QA6
+ Show Spoiler + This was my original idea with QD7, to eventually move to C6 and threaten the C4 pawn. However the pesky d pawn could cause problems to this variation. Since we played C8, its only natural to move the Queen to the attacking square on A6. From here we she can threaten the C4 pawn without any chance of retaliation. There's no rush to play C5 as we can always play it next turn. Things are going to get bloody soon, and I think we should come out of the exchange up material.
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interesting, our options:
13...e5
+ Show Spoiler +14. e4 exd4 15. cxd4 Nc6 16. d5 Nd4 with a small edge for black. White's centre is locked and Black has a nice knight, Black has permanent pressure against c4.
13...c5
+ Show Spoiler +14. Bb2 Qc7 15. e4 Rac8 16. Rfc1 Nc6 with a noticable edge for Black IMO. Black has massive central control and can slowly up the pressure on White. Its very difficult for white to do anything active in the position
13...Qa6
+ Show Spoiler +14. Qd3 c5 15. Rb5 Qc8 16. e4 cxd4 17. cxd4 Nc6 with a tiny edge to Black. However, white does get a mobile pawn centre and his dark squae bishop can come to life. For that reason, I dont like it.
13...Re8
+ Show Spoiler +14. e4 e5 15. Bb2 Qe6 16. d5 Qg4 with a tiny advantage for Black. The move 15...c5 may be an improvement for Black however, leading to 15...c5 16. d5 Qg4, but im not sure. Overall, a pretty useless line
13...Nd7?!
+ Show Spoiler + 14. Ba3 c5 15. e4 Re8 16. Rfe1 e5 and black looks really solid.
afterr all that, im going to go with the intended move following 12...Qc8, and that is 13...c5!
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l10f
United States3241 Posts
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On November 08 2009 18:56 jfazz wrote:interesting, our options: 13...c5 + Show Spoiler +14. Bb2 Qc7 15. e4 Rac8 16. Rfc1 Nc6 with a noticable edge for Black IMO. Black has massive central control and can slowly up the pressure on White. Its very difficult for white to do anything active in the position
+ Show Spoiler +What is the point of 14. Bb2? Doesn't make sense for me.
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I vote 13...e7-e5
+ Show Spoiler + Jfrazz the lines you give for our options aren't really convincing. In the c5 line, 14...Qc7 is essentially admitting Qc8 was a mistake and a waste of tempo. Also 14. e4 seems to be a better response than Bb2. Well then we can just do 14...e5 which is just a different move order of the 13...e5 14. e4 c5 line. I guess I just really like e5 But since the entire purpose of Qc8 was to make additional preparations for c5 even though it wasn't necessary, might as well make the follow-up move. E5 probably deserves more consideration though. In fact the line you give for e5 isn't good for black at all. White gets much more space and central control than we get from our knight in the closed position and the small weakness on c4 which we cant really attack. 14...c5 is a much better response than exd4.
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motbob
United States12546 Posts
On November 09 2009 22:40 cascades wrote:+ Show Spoiler +What is the point of 14. Bb2? Doesn't make sense for me.
+ Show Spoiler +The bishop is exerting some influence on the center after pawn exchanges.
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Motbob is correct, basically, its a strong square, and after the following, it would be a monster:
+ Show Spoiler +Black exchanges ...cxd4, white recaptures cxd4 and then plays d5 ASAP - now he has a big centre, akin to the gruenfeld, with a monster bishop, but we have no opposition to it. He can even start to force attacking lines in this variation (his light square bishop will relocate obv.)
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I vote for: 13...c7-c5
+ Show Spoiler +we've been eying that move for long, and this seems the most opportune time for it. e5 is tempting, but at this point we can limit his offensive options while retaining a beautiful position.
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On November 10 2009 07:29 jfazz wrote:Motbob is correct, basically, its a strong square, and after the following, it would be a monster: + Show Spoiler +Black exchanges ...cxd4, white recaptures cxd4 and then plays d5 ASAP - now he has a big centre, akin to the gruenfeld, with a monster bishop, but we have no opposition to it. He can even start to force attacking lines in this variation (his light square bishop will relocate obv.)
+ Show Spoiler +Thing is, in that variation, why would Black exchange cxd4? Much better to let white dxc5 and then recapture, which causes a block to his doubled c pawns and the Bb2 bishop.
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yup my vote also for c7-c5 ;}
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United States2186 Posts
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OK Guys, I Made My Choice. GO!
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14...d5
+ Show Spoiler +15. dxc5 Qxc5 16. cxd5 Nxd5 17. Ne4 Qc4 18. Ng5 g6 19. Ne4 f5 20. Nd6 Qxc3 21. Qxc3 Nxc3 22. Bh6 Rfd8 and black has a clearly dominant position;
the line might not play out exactly like that, but seriously, WTF is white supposed to do?
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Sanya12364 Posts
hey I don't like 14... d5
+ Show Spoiler +what about 15. Ba3 Rd8 16 dxc5
voting for
14. ... Qc6
+ Show Spoiler +I think we ought to play slowly
14. ... h6
14. ... Re8
14. ... Qa6
all work for me
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Is there a way to somehow use an applet or something to play all the moves from the beginning to the end for someone who isn't familiar with chess notation? I know how to play the game and I'd love to be able to see the game move-by-move, but I lack the knowledge to, for example, take an actual chess board and move the pieces myself.
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@ TanGeng, and for anyone worried about the line 14...d5 15. Ba3
+ Show Spoiler +15...dxc4 16. dxc5 Rd8 17. cxb6 axb6 18. e4 Qc7 19. Rfd1 Rd3 20. Bb4 Nb7 and black is winning.
Black also has 15...Nxc4 16. Nxc4 dxc4 17. dxc5 Nd5 18. Kf2 with equality
as for 15. Ba3 Rd8 16. dxc5 isn't black alright after 16...dxc4 17. e4 Rd3?
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I vote 14...Qc6
+ Show Spoiler +
d5 is just bad
15. Ba3 dxc4 16. dxc5 Rd8 17. e4 and i fail to see Black's advantage anymore
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can we use cheats?
--power overwhelming--
...
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Sanya12364 Posts
On November 11 2009 13:30 jfazz wrote:@ TanGeng, and for anyone worried about the line 14...d5 15. Ba3 + Show Spoiler +15...dxc4 16. dxc5 Rd8 17. cxb6 axb6 18. e4 Qc7 19. Rfd1 Rd3 20. Bb4 Nb7 and black is winning.
Black also has 15...Nxc4 16. Nxc4 dxc4 17. dxc5 Nd5 18. Kf2 with equality
as for 15. Ba3 Rd8 16. dxc5 isn't black alright after 16...dxc4 17. e4 Rd3?
+ Show Spoiler +
ahhh that looks a stronger response for black. Nice one
15...dxc4 16. dxc5 Rd8
but here white should play 17. e4
with 17. ... bxc5 18. Rb5 response to the pawn grab.
It looks very complicated and now black has to defend a6 - probably with Qc6. It's not clear to me that we (black) have an advantage then.
Ahhh it's the same as the other line except with 17. ... Rd3
15. Ba3 Rd8 16. dxc5 dxc4 17. e4 Rd3 --
then
-- 18. Bb4 Qa6 19 Bxa5 Qxa5 20 cxb6
after that it could go two ways
20. ... Rxc3 21 b7 Rb8
or
20. ... axb6 21 Rb4
I would have to say that the position slightly favors white since black's knight is positioned away on the the kingside. I guess what I am saying is that I expect any line that we play to keep the advantage that we current have and not bring it to equality.
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On November 11 2009 14:26 TanGeng wrote:Show nested quote +On November 11 2009 13:30 jfazz wrote:@ TanGeng, and for anyone worried about the line 14...d5 15. Ba3 + Show Spoiler +15...dxc4 16. dxc5 Rd8 17. cxb6 axb6 18. e4 Qc7 19. Rfd1 Rd3 20. Bb4 Nb7 and black is winning.
Black also has 15...Nxc4 16. Nxc4 dxc4 17. dxc5 Nd5 18. Kf2 with equality
as for 15. Ba3 Rd8 16. dxc5 isn't black alright after 16...dxc4 17. e4 Rd3? + Show Spoiler +
ahhh that looks a stronger response for black. Nice one
15...dxc4 16. dxc5 Rd8
but here white should play 17. e4
with 17. ... bxc5 18. Rb5 response to the pawn grab.
It looks very complicated and now black has to defend a6 - probably with Qc6. It's not clear to me that we (black) have an advantage then.
Ahhh it's the same as the other line except with 17. ... Rd3
15. Ba3 Rd8 16. dxc5 dxc4 17. e4 Rd3 --
then
-- 18. Bb4 Qa6 19 Bxa5 Qxa5 20 cxb6
after that it could go two ways
20. ... Rxc3 21 b7 Rb8
or
20. ... axb6 21 Rb4
I would have to say that the position slightly favors white since black's knight is positioned away on the the kingside. I guess what I am saying is that I expect any line that we play to keep the advantage that we current have and not bring it to equality.
+ Show Spoiler +15...dxc4 16. dxc5 Rd8 17. cxb6 axb6 18. Rxb6 and white is up a pawn and winning.
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Sanya12364 Posts
On November 11 2009 14:51 cascades wrote:Show nested quote +On November 11 2009 14:26 TanGeng wrote:On November 11 2009 13:30 jfazz wrote:@ TanGeng, and for anyone worried about the line 14...d5 15. Ba3 + Show Spoiler +15...dxc4 16. dxc5 Rd8 17. cxb6 axb6 18. e4 Qc7 19. Rfd1 Rd3 20. Bb4 Nb7 and black is winning.
Black also has 15...Nxc4 16. Nxc4 dxc4 17. dxc5 Nd5 18. Kf2 with equality
as for 15. Ba3 Rd8 16. dxc5 isn't black alright after 16...dxc4 17. e4 Rd3? + Show Spoiler +
ahhh that looks a stronger response for black. Nice one
15...dxc4 16. dxc5 Rd8
but here white should play 17. e4
with 17. ... bxc5 18. Rb5 response to the pawn grab.
It looks very complicated and now black has to defend a6 - probably with Qc6. It's not clear to me that we (black) have an advantage then.
Ahhh it's the same as the other line except with 17. ... Rd3
15. Ba3 Rd8 16. dxc5 dxc4 17. e4 Rd3 --
then
-- 18. Bb4 Qa6 19 Bxa5 Qxa5 20 cxb6
after that it could go two ways
20. ... Rxc3 21 b7 Rb8
or
20. ... axb6 21 Rb4
I would have to say that the position slightly favors white since black's knight is positioned away on the the kingside. I guess what I am saying is that I expect any line that we play to keep the advantage that we current have and not bring it to equality.
+ Show Spoiler +15...dxc4 16. dxc5 Rd8 17. cxb6 axb6 18. Rxb6 and white is up a pawn and winning.
+ Show Spoiler +Can't take. Look at Nd5. There's a reason for playing e4 first.
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Lol, but at least he tried...
Actually, yes I am convinced by your deeper analysis TanGeng.
I would like to change my vote to 14...Qc6. thanks.
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On November 11 2009 15:03 TanGeng wrote:Show nested quote +On November 11 2009 14:51 cascades wrote:On November 11 2009 14:26 TanGeng wrote:On November 11 2009 13:30 jfazz wrote:@ TanGeng, and for anyone worried about the line 14...d5 15. Ba3 + Show Spoiler +15...dxc4 16. dxc5 Rd8 17. cxb6 axb6 18. e4 Qc7 19. Rfd1 Rd3 20. Bb4 Nb7 and black is winning.
Black also has 15...Nxc4 16. Nxc4 dxc4 17. dxc5 Nd5 18. Kf2 with equality
as for 15. Ba3 Rd8 16. dxc5 isn't black alright after 16...dxc4 17. e4 Rd3? + Show Spoiler +
ahhh that looks a stronger response for black. Nice one
15...dxc4 16. dxc5 Rd8
but here white should play 17. e4
with 17. ... bxc5 18. Rb5 response to the pawn grab.
It looks very complicated and now black has to defend a6 - probably with Qc6. It's not clear to me that we (black) have an advantage then.
Ahhh it's the same as the other line except with 17. ... Rd3
15. Ba3 Rd8 16. dxc5 dxc4 17. e4 Rd3 --
then
-- 18. Bb4 Qa6 19 Bxa5 Qxa5 20 cxb6
after that it could go two ways
20. ... Rxc3 21 b7 Rb8
or
20. ... axb6 21 Rb4
I would have to say that the position slightly favors white since black's knight is positioned away on the the kingside. I guess what I am saying is that I expect any line that we play to keep the advantage that we current have and not bring it to equality.
+ Show Spoiler +15...dxc4 16. dxc5 Rd8 17. cxb6 axb6 18. Rxb6 and white is up a pawn and winning. + Show Spoiler +Can't take. Look at Nd5. There's a reason for playing e4 first.
+ Show Spoiler +Duh. Was trying to find a way to exploit Nd5 - Nf4 vulnerability. Guess I didn't manage to connect the dots here.
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motbob
United States12546 Posts
+ Show Spoiler +ummm this was a bad move. Now we can get the c-pawn. ...cxd 16. cxd Rac1 17. Rb4 d5 and the pawn is ours.
Actually no wait, it can still be pushed after 18. exd exd. but then it's a simple matter of ...Nd7
15...cxd
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motbob
United States12546 Posts
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we have a great position now.
15...cxd4
+ Show Spoiler +16. cxd4 Rfc8 17. Rb4 d5 18. c5 bxc5 19. Qxc5 Qxc5 20. dxc5 Rxc5 and white resigns
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Sanya12364 Posts
Instincts tells me
--------------
will analyze more later!
never mind that move...
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15..... cxd4
+ Show Spoiler +
this is gg for white
huge blunder from white here with 15 e4.
either white resigns via jfrazz's line or
16 cxd4 Rac8
17 Ba3 Nxc4
18 Nxc4 Qxc4
19 resigns
well this was fun.........maybe we should start voting for who should we play next ?
jfrazz
motlob
cascades
myself
anyone else ???
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I can't play in the next one sorry - December will just suck for me (ill be working full time and readying myself for two norm tournaments in january), and I am overseas playing in said tournaments until febuary. So perhaps then.
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@ Athos
+ Show Spoiler + there is no checkmate, but we can take a dominant position on the c-file, pressure the weak a-file pawn, activate our minor pieces MUCH more easily and we are a pawn up. Cruisey position!
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Sanya12364 Posts
15. ... cxd4
+ Show Spoiler +White is still playable from this position, but looks really tough.
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15...cxd4
+ Show Spoiler +
Black has a huge advantage. Bar any gross blunders we should definitely win.
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i vote 15...cxd4
+ Show Spoiler +this line should put us up a pawn with the reinforcement of a rook on c8. that's as far as i can see
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Sanya12364 Posts
+ Show Spoiler +
It was much tougher on white than I had previously thought.
16. cxd4 Rfc8 17 Rb4 d5 18 Bb2
is probably best for white.
Q is stuck along b1 to d3 to protect the e4 pawn allowing black to take that would be even worse than c4.
b4 R is stuck there.
d2 knight is stuck there as well in protection of d4 and c4. The a5 knight on c4 would be intolerable.
e4 cannot take d5, could push to e5.
can't really do anything in that situation but move the Queen along the diagonal from b1 to d3. Allowing black to take on e4, dxe4 is just brutal.
16. ... Rac8 17 Ba3 would be a closer battle
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I vote for 15...cxd4
+ Show Spoiler +pawn up + better position = yay us!
Seriously though, we've gained a bit of tempo each one of the last few moves while retaining a rock solid position. Without a blunder, I just can't see us losing.
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...and the move was made.
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motbob
United States12546 Posts
I vote for Rac8 just to be different
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On November 14 2009 19:10 Syntax Lost wrote:
I vote 16...Rfc8
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I don't see a way for white to draw after 16... Rfc8.
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Sanya12364 Posts
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As you wish guys, match keeps rollin'
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motbob
United States12546 Posts
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17...dxc5
+ Show Spoiler +17. ... dxc5 18. dxc5 Qxc5 19. Qxc5 Rxc5 20. Bb2 Rd8 and we look fantastic.
on 20. Ba3 we have 20...Rc2 followed by ...Nc4 which is crushing. In any case, we still need to win a pawn up endgame, but with a knight on c6 AND c5, we can put a whole lot of pressure on the a-pawn.
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United Kingdom2674 Posts
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On November 16 2009 21:52 jfazz wrote:17...dxc5 + Show Spoiler +17. ... dxc5 18. dxc5 Qxc5 19. Qxc5 Rxc5 20. Bb2 Rd8 and we look fantastic.
on 20. Ba3 we have 20...Rc2 followed by ...Nc4 which is crushing. In any case, we still need to win a pawn up endgame, but with a knight on c6 AND c5, we can put a whole lot of pressure on the a-pawn.
Dxc5
+ Show Spoiler +Took me a good 5 minutes to see that this was completely crushing but it really is. I mean, what else could white even do here.
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d5
+ Show Spoiler +I'm no expert, but throwing my thought of line out there, havent followed this game that closely, but out of what I see, white cannot do much. Trying to spice it up abit, we will lose one or two pesants on this, but it might be worth it. We will gain alot ground. He can do Exd5, we Qxd5. We can follow up by using moving our Kf4 opening up for a huge pressure on a fork of e3 and even more pressure on the king. Even the fact that his queen isnt protected, we can open up alot of pressure by letting that pestant stay as it is, because it can do no harm in its current state. If we move our queen to a more aggresive position, we can use the pesant to our advantage later as a move to gain ground for our rooks. anyone get my thougt?
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d5 is shit, dxc5 and white should resign, without time control this position cannot be held even on the 1500 level.
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Yeah, honestly I would rather win the pawn and takethe superior endgame position to boot.
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dxc5
vekzel should just resign so we can get the next game started
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Don't be rude. Not only has Vekzel been a great host, but also chess players show their opponents respect
+ Show Spoiler +unless you're kasparov. or karpov. or korchnoi, topalov, capablanca, botvinnik or even better, Mamedyarov! +1 point for recalling the game I have in mind :D
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17...dxc5
+ Show Spoiler +
can anyone please tell me why dxc5 and not bxc5?? i'm just following conventional wisdom that says you should capture towards the center when using pawns.
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sure thing buddy
+ Show Spoiler +a) the a5 knight cannot hang in any tactical lines
b) we don't have an isolani on the a-file
c) we can limit the activity of his rook (it cannot activate itself along the b-file for counterplay)
d) after the moves 17...dxc5 18. dxc5 Qxc5 19. Qxc5 Rxc5 we can now bring a rook to the d-file - which is superior to doubling currently - and start to penetrate rooks into white's position. This is the overriding reason for ...dxc5 over ...bxc5.
hope this helps
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On November 17 2009 19:16 unknown.sam wrote:17...bxc5 + Show Spoiler +
can anyone please tell me why dxc5 and not bxc5?? i'm just following conventional wisdom that says you should capture towards the center when using pawns.
+ Show Spoiler +
B file is currently occuiped with a white rook giving white control of that file, blacks knight is currently gaurded with the B pawn so it would be undefended with bxc. Also it would isolate the a pawn. In a lot of lines, the black night on F7 can go on manuevars to pressuare whites a pawn to death giving black connected passed pawns which would just win the game. Enough reasons?
Those are general guidelines which are good; you can't be blinded by them.
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yeah, i'd have said dxc5 too if I were in this, just because of the rook.
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On November 17 2009 19:48 aseq wrote:
yeah, i'd have said dxc5 too if I were in this, just because of the rook.
Id say the rook is a fairly nominal reason. The biggest reason is having the knight guarded. It can't hang in tactical shots. No reason to throw away won game.
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oh ok now i get it. i did have a hunch it had something to do with his rook but i never thought about the isolated pawn.
thanks for the analysis guys
time to change my vote haha
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Sanya12364 Posts
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pretty much what everyone else has said:
+ Show Spoiler +
17.......dxc5
18 dxc5 Qxc5
or
18 dxc5 Nd7
19 Ba3 ..whatever
either way black has advantage. let me emphasize about where are we: black's advantage is decent, meaning white playing with no mistakes from here and on and let's say coming up with some weird unexpected !!! can push for a draw at most, but winning for white here is definatly almost impossible. if white makes another blunder, it should be gg in a matter of 4 or 5 moves
so:
absolute must perfect play from white + decent play from black = draw
another blunder from white + decent play from black = 0-1
if black blunders = white can reduce the advantage and increase their drawing chances.
black blunder horribly = white reduces advantage, increase drawing and perhaps winning chances
and for those wondering about other moves.......
from here and on, any other move is only downhill for white . IE:
17....dxc5
18 e5? Nd5
with huge advantage for black
17 .... dxc5
18 d5? exd5
another huge advantage for black
17......dxc5
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the game he lost and accused his opponent of cheating...did he apologize after ragequitting from the tournament?
+ Show Spoiler +
but i was just saying vekzel should start up a new game since he's down material and no real way of generating counterplay. Why keep playing a lost position
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No he didnt. Invititations to events since have been limited for him accordingly.
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motbob
United States12546 Posts
Qxc6
edit: yeah commit suicide, queen!
I meant Qxc5
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Fun game I played today against my brother. I was black. I out rate him by quite a bit, but still, interesting game, using some nice home prep!
1. d4 d5 2. c4 c6
The Queen's Gambit declined, Slav Variation.
3. Nf3 Nf6 4. Bg5 e6 5. Nc3 h6 6. Bh4 dxc4 7. e4 g5 8. Bg3 b5
The Moscow Variation of the Slav, the alternative was the Botvinnik with an earlier ...g5, but this is slightly less crazy
9. Be2 Bb7 10. h4 g4
The Old Mainline
11. Ne5 h5 12. f3 Nbd7 13. fxg4 hxg4 14. O-O Nxe5? 15. Bxe5 Nd7!!
The Dreev Novelty, and yes, Black will be down a whole Rook
16. Bxh8 Qxh4 17. Bxg4 Qxh8
White returns a piece, leaving black with a pawn and the bishop pair as compensation for the Rook. This was chosen as an alternative to 17. Be5 Nxe5! when white has no defence
18. e5 O-O-O 19. Rxf7 Nxe5 20. Bxe6+ Kb8 21. Rf5 Nd3 22. Qg4 Bg7 23. Ne2 Nxb2 24. Rf7 Bxd4+ 25. Nxd4 Qxd4+
Though down material, Black can trade queens due to the strength of the out posted knight, worth at least a Rook
26. Qxd4 Rxd4 27. Re1 Nd3 28. Re3 a6 29. Bf5 Rd8 30. g4 Bc8 31. Rfe7 Bxf5 32. gxf5 c3 33. Re8 Rxe8 34. Rxe8+ Kc7 35. Re2 Nf4 36. Re1 Nd5
The Knight is very strong now, Blacks pawn majority on the Queenside will be decisive
37. Kf2 Kd6 38. Kf3 Kc5 39. Ke4 Kc4 40. Rf1 c2 41. f6 Nxf6+ 42. Rxf6 c5 43. Rf1 Kc3 44. Kd5 c4 45. Rg1 Kb2 46. a4 c1=Q 47. Rxc1 Kxc1 48. axb5 axb5 49. Kc5 c3 50. Kxb5 c2
51. Resigns 0-1
Let me know what you think
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Sanya12364 Posts
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On November 18 2009 18:24 jfazz wrote:Fun game I played today against my brother. I was black. I out rate him by quite a bit, but still, interesting game, using some nice home prep! 1. d4 d5 2. c4 c6 The Queen's Gambit declined, Slav Variation.3. Nf3 Nf6 4. Bg5 e6 5. Nc3 h6 6. Bh4 dxc4 7. e4 g5 8. Bg3 b5 The Moscow Variation of the Slav, the alternative was the Botvinnik with an earlier ...g5, but this is slightly less crazy9. Be2 Bb7 10. h4 g4 The Old Mainline 11. Ne5 h5 12. f3 Nbd7 13. fxg4 hxg4 14. O-O Nxe5? 15. Bxe5 Nd7!! The Dreev Novelty, and yes, Black will be down a whole Rook 16. Bxh8 Qxh4 17. Bxg4 Qxh8 White returns a piece, leaving black with a pawn and the bishop pair as compensation for the Rook. This was chosen as an alternative to 17. Be5 Nxe5! when white has no defence18. e5 O-O-O 19. Rxf7 Nxe5 20. Bxe6+ Kb8 21. Rf5 Nd3 22. Qg4 Bg7 23. Ne2 Nxb2 24. Rf7 Bxd4+ 25. Nxd4 Qxd4+ T hough down material, Black can trade queens due to the strength of the out posted knight, worth at least a Rook26. Qxd4 Rxd4 27. Re1 Nd3 28. Re3 a6 29. Bf5 Rd8 30. g4 Bc8 31. Rfe7 Bxf5 32. gxf5 c3 33. Re8 Rxe8 34. Rxe8+ Kc7 35. Re2 Nf4 36. Re1 Nd5 The Knight is very strong now, Blacks pawn majority on the Queenside will be decisive37. Kf2 Kd6 38. Kf3 Kc5 39. Ke4 Kc4 40. Rf1 c2 41. f6 Nxf6+ 42. Rxf6 c5 43. Rf1 Kc3 44. Kd5 c4 45. Rg1 Kb2 46. a4 c1=Q 47. Rxc1 Kxc1 48. axb5 axb5 49. Kc5 c3 50. Kxb5 c2 51. Resigns 0-1 Let me know what you think
maybe with 30. Ree7 White can get a Draw?
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United Kingdom2674 Posts
No reason to not play Qxc5 so that gets my vote.
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l10f
United States3241 Posts
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18......Qxc5
+ Show Spoiler +
19 Qxc5 Rxc5
20 Ba3 maybe....whatever. black has advantage
just for instructional purposes:
although 18...Nd7 works equally 19 Ba3 etc....... there is no need to prolong the aagony and to simplify is the more compact play.
Nov 20 Edit: shouldn't this be updated already ?
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On November 19 2009 00:10 lightman wrote:
Nov 20 Edit: shouldn't this be updated already ?
Sorry for this delay, now it's updated. I guess you won't have too much trouble voting...
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motbob
United States12546 Posts
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Sanya12364 Posts
19. ... Rxc5
not much choice there.
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OOOOHH thats brilliant.Karpov himself would be proud of such prophalaxis :D Hehe nice one, made me smile
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United Kingdom2674 Posts
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how do i go about joining a team i am coincidentally suited for this activity
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United Kingdom2674 Posts
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+ Show Spoiler + I'm kinda stuck between RC2 and RD8 but I guess they both accomplish the same thing of putting his Rook on F2. Rook C2 is a bit more direct, so it's probably the better move, but we can play either one, even one after the other.
RD8
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Rc5 - c2.
+ Show Spoiler +This leaves white with a couple of options, all of them involving the defense of the knight on d2 and/or losing a piece. Either Rf-d1 or Rf2. I haven't had the chance to do any deep calculations, but despite the common principal of keeping rooks on the same ranks I think Rf2 might be better. We will follow up with Rd8, winning a piece.
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21...... Rd8
why Rd8 instead of Rc2.
+ Show Spoiler +
basically, if black wants to end this fast. it's Rd8. If we want to exchange pieces and meet a pawngame w 1 piece long (maybe 20-25 move) endgamme,,,, then Rc2
playing Rd8 would finish this in 15-20 moves at most
21... Rc2
definetly a good move, though correct move to play is ....Rd8 to active our remaing rook and keep pressure for
22 Rf2 Rc2
23 Bxd6 Rdxd2
24 Bd4 Nc6
black having both rooks active and pressuring the king. at this point white may blunder again to give us an even shorter finish
the other line would be
22 Rf2 Fd3
23 Ra1 Nd7
24 f4 Nc4
25 Nxc4 Rxc4
a slower line, with white playing perfect here, basically resisting the emminent outcome
if we play ....Rc2 instead, then the endgame may be a bit boring:
21 Rf2 Rac8
22 Nf1 Rxf2+
23 Kxf2 Nd7
24 Bb4 Rc2+
25 Kg1 Nc4
26 Rd1 Kf8.....
still black wins but it's gonna take a while
I'm ok with both moves, .......Rc2 .....Rd8, but me me I would play and vote for .......Rd8
------------------------------
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jfrazz here's my analysis on your game
1. d4 d5 2. c4 c6
The Queen's Gambit declined, Slav Variation.
3. Nf3 Nf6
4. Bg5 e6
5. Nc3 h6
6. Bh4 dxc4
7. e4 g5
8. Bg3 b5
The Moscow Variation of the Slav,
9. Be2 Bb7
10. h4 g4
end of early game, nice impecabble playing from both. you guys definetly have sharp home prep
[spoiler]
11. Ne5 h5
12. f3 Nbd7
13. fxg4 hxg4
14. O-O Nxe5 (this is the right move) I wouldn't "?" it
deep opening preparation from both. well played.
15. Bxe5 Nd7!! (worth the "!!")
16. Bxh8 Qxh4
17. Bxg4 Qxh8
18. e5 O-O-O
19. Rxf7 ??
A big blunder from white, instead of playing the more secure Qe2 to get rid of the pin as in
19 Qe2 Nxe5
20 dxe5
21 Rf2 Bxf2+
22 Kxf2 Qh4+
23 Kg1 Rh8
24 Bh5 and white has a solid position. Black is ok but not too much to brag about
game resumes with
20. Bxe6+ Kb8
21. Rf5 ??
Another blunder from white. still not resolving the pin.
21.....Nd3. I think the correct move was 21...Bc5
22. Qg4 Bg7
and black has lost the initiative. White may look about to lose a pawn but has interesting development
23. Ne2 Rf7 ?? Why not Rb1 instead.??
24. Rf7 Bxd4+
25. Nxd4 Qxd4+
26. Qxd4 Rxd4
and all of a sudden it looks like white has equalized.
27. Re1 Nd3
28. Re3 a6
29. Bf5 Rd8
30. g4 Bc8
31. Rfe7 ??
Huge fatal Blunder from white. Why block his own rooks ?? The position was pretty equal and right move was Ree7 instead bringing both rooks to pressure the King and at least force, I mean if any winning chances for white there were, they're all gone now
31.. Bxf5
32. gxf5 c3
33. Re8 Rxe8 ???
33..... c2 was the correct move. Although white has somewhat of pressure, black has nothing much to worry about
34. Rxe8+ Kc7
35. Re2 Nf4
36. Re1 Nd5
again white somewhat equalized. perfect play from white here would earn a draw.
37. Kf2 Kd6
38. Kf3 Kc5
39. Ke4 ??
final fatal Blunder from white or maybe the blunder was Kf3 (not sure), in pawn game endings it's vital to never lose a tempo. having this happend it's gg for white as black clearly wins.
perhaps 39 Ke2 would have saved the draw by 39 ke2 a5 40 a4 kd3 31 Kd6 Re6+
so the rest is automatic
39.....Kc4
40. Rf1 c2
41. f6 Nxf6+
42. Rxf6 c5
43. Rf1 Kc3
44. Kd5 c4
45. Rg1 Kb2
46. a4 c1=Q
47. Rxc1 Kxc1
48. axb5 axb5
49. Kc5 c3
50. Kxb5 c2
51. Resigns 0-1
nice elegant finish
overall very well played, and good tense game
your home preparation definetly surpasses mine, your mid game has noticable flaws though. I would say the only clear error you made was 33....Rxe8 instead of 33.....c2 to finish it right there.
as per white, he had his chances but made two bigg mistakes, the biggest blunder being Rfe7 where he lost all the position he had worked for. And of course the 19......Rxf7 instead of 19....Qe2. Looks like white got a bit greedy there
Out of curiosity, what time controls were used for this game ??
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it was 15mins each speed chess. I will analyse your analysis soon, but I REALLY appreciate your effort
Im not a natural slav player, I am trying to add it to my repetoire for two tournaments in january - im a known nimzo/QID player, so I need to branch out! At the moment, I am still very unfamiliar from the blackside in those sort of positions, they aren't similar to what I am normally playing.
just to add some analysis to the ...Rc2 lines how about + Show Spoiler +21. Rf2 Nd7 22. Bd4 Rac8 23. Rd1 e5 24. Be3 Nc5 and I think that should be a pretty easy rook endgame?
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lightman Rc2 is sente, or wins a tempo or whatever. It forces white to respond after which we can still activate our other rook.
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Sanya12364 Posts
Rc2
hmm
+ Show Spoiler +Black needs to get f6 Knight into play, and Rc2 clears the c5 square for the knight through d7
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I don't really get what Lightman is saying. Besides some errors in notation (where is Bxd6?), also, since Rf2 is forced, his first line follows up with Rc2 and results in the same position anyway.
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TL has developed a pretty sizable lead IMO.
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Sanya12364 Posts
On November 25 2009 11:10 jfazz wrote:
What TanGeng said.
A different idea = well not really, haha
+ Show Spoiler +
Depending on the response knight to e5 is also available, but should the knight gets to c5, the a4 pawn is all but dead.
It'll be two passed pawns up on the queen-side so we should just exchange the pieces and collect the win.
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On November 25 2009 11:57 TanGeng wrote:A different idea = well not really, haha + Show Spoiler +
Depending on the response knight to e5 is also available, but should the knight gets to c5, the a4 pawn is all but dead.
It'll be two passed pawns up on the queen-side so we should just exchange the pieces and collect the win.
+ Show Spoiler + Agreed. I too prefer this line ...Rc2 Rf2 ...Nd7 Ba3 ...Ne5 and that is the best case scenario for white, a mess positionally wise. Someone needs to explain Lighhtman's analysis to me.
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I like the idea of knights on c5 and c6. Aside from being visually cool, it rips apart the queenside.
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shouldn't this be updated already ??
btw, I'm ok with Rc2, it's just that me me me I would play Rd8 in this situation, the reason why I prefer (repeat prefer, not dislike Rc2) Rd8 is
+ Show Spoiler +
black is still winning regardless of Rc2 or Rd8, but I think that Rc2 weakens the pressure at allows white a breathe in the midrun, especially by black not gaining control of d file as in:
22 Rf2 Rac8 (no point of playing Rd8 to attack a soon to be empty square per Nf1)
23 Nf1 Nd7 (looking for to c5 / e5)
24 Bd4 R2c4 (def the best plays)
25 Rd1 Nc5
26 BxN bxc5
27 Rd7 (and white has a bit of air, black still has advantage but it's not as big as before)
in essence Rc2 is not really scissoring or pinning anythinig to make white lose it, whereas Rd8 activates black's other rook to prepare an assualt towards the f2 square via rook trading.
my point is Rd8 prevents white from gasping any pieces into d, bishop or knight
if you guys think I'm missing something or I'm wrong, please let me know
again, I'm ok with Rc2 as black is still winning
anyway, since Rc2 is winning the poll and vetkzel hasn't updated, how about we start talking about the continuation lines and moves following 21......Rc2 ??? mine already appointed above
how about yours ??
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White's mobes and our responses, following ...Rc2:
+ Show Spoiler +a) 21. Rf2 Nd7
This move order is the most accurate, as it prevents any immediate exchange via Bxf6. The knight intends the c5 square, so that the a5 knight may return to c6 safely, activating massive pressure on the queenside.
22. Bd4 Nc6
I think this works well, but it is important to verify. White must stop the knight from coming to c5 (he has a techinically lost endgame if he cannot exchange it), so the bishop must occupy that diagonal. This move order lets us achive the first of our objectives in the position - knight to c6 - with tempo.
23. Be3 Ra2 24. Rc1 Nce5
Black now wins a second pawn by force, and I firmly believe this line will allow exchanges while still perhaps giving us a knight on c5 (eventually) or at least clean exchanges that DO NOT include the ugly and unwanted ...bxc5
25. Nc4 Rxa4 26. Nxe5 Nxe5 27. Rfc2 f5
Now, even though white can penetrate a rook to the 8th, so long as Black has a the a-file rook, eventually those two passers will decide the game. In the meantime, it is simply a matter of getting the knight to a good square, most likely somewhere in the centre.
So what about 22. Nf1 instead? 22...Rc4 going after the weak a-pawn looks promising, then perhaps:
23. Rd2 Nc5 24. Rbd1 Nc6 25. Ne3 Rxa4 26. Rd6 Ra2 27. R1d2 Nb3 and it looks over to me.
b) 21. Rfd1?? Nc4 and resigns (22. Bxf6 gxf6 23. Rbc1 Rxd2+)
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Rc2 would be my choice too
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It's practically even between Rc2 and Rd8, but I prefer Rd8 because
+ Show Spoiler +
20... Rd8 21.Rf2 Nd7 22.Ba3 Rc6 23. Be7 Rdc8
20...Rc2 21. Rf2 Nd7 22. Nf1 Rxf2+ 23.Kxf2
and I think with the first line we end up with a better position. But this is just quickly before I leave so maybe I missed something better
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Sorry guys, but apparently something is wrong with my internet connection. I have to stop playing for a couple of days and check what's wrong. I'll PM you when it will be resumed.
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No problem mate, I hope you get it sorted without any major hassles. My ISP sucks when it comes to resolving problems
Also, I just wanted to chime in, I am starting to study hard for tournaments in january, ill be readying notes on the caro, nimzo/QID and anglo-indian for black, as well as most stuff that can arrive after I play 1.d4 - if anyone has any questions, suggestions or can reccomend some great games, why not, id love to talk chess
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Just wanted to bump this before it goes into hiding
I had a fantastic game in the Caro-Kann today (as black). I will post it up later with my notes, got to keep the thread alive!
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EPT![[image loading]](http://img203.imageshack.us/img203/496/bannerfinal.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://img510.imageshack.us/img510/7523/69851492.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://img39.imageshack.us/img39/964/rev22.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://img210.imageshack.us/img210/3465/fidelisty.jpg)
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