EPTTerran Revolutionist - Page 4
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AttackZerg
United States7465 Posts
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raga4ka
Bulgaria5679 Posts
To bad i don't have a practise partner for ZvT  .I never thought that the terran mech push when it gets big is unstropable , you just need the necessary provisions at least 4 fully saturated bases to keep your macro going unlimited amount of plague and dark swarm and hidra/mutas and updates . I think Mech build vs zerg are pretty bad on Big maps because the zerg can always out manoeuvre a mech terran late game just go counter 1 of his expos with mass mutas or doom drop and delay the push with lurkers under swarm and plague . Thought it is still hard to pullof | ||
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beetlelisk
Poland2276 Posts
On October 18 2008 17:14 IdrA wrote: he was getting +1 armor. i dont really know the rationale, i think +1 attack is better. My humble math insight  +1 attack changes almost nothing - it makes 10 not 12 gols one-shot-kill muta but not 1 less against lings, hydras, etc. +1 armor tho (combined with 1 base armor of mechs) makes muta splash damage almost obsolete and means another -25% damage dealt by lings (they do 3 ! which -40% in total  ) -> gols live and do damage longeredit: while watching Midas vs YellOw[Arnc] game on Plasma I realized that +1 attack makes sieged Tanks one-shot-kill lings if they have +1 carapace (I think even +2?) I guess it's helpful when countering mass lings with Dark Swarm... but that's so much later in the game... | ||
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Wonders
Australia753 Posts
If this mech build becomes popular on iccup then hopefully we'll start seeing some people using spawn broodling. I was thinking something along the lines of what ggplay did in the game vs medusa. 3 hatch, get hydras but only just enough to stop the vulture harass, all the while powering drones. When the spire finishes you won't make any mutas but the threat of scourge is by itself enough to stop vulture drops, so you can move out with about 12 hydras to clear mines to get your 3rd up. Then once your 3rd is up and filled with drones, instead of making mutas which do very little against upgraded goliaths and valks, make queens and hydras! Spawn broodling has even longer range than upgraded goliaths, so sniping tanks shouldn't be too hard. With very few tanks, you won't need an overwhelming economy (which the vultures deny) to match his force. | ||
KwarK
United States43187 Posts
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IdrA
United States11541 Posts
On October 18 2008 18:12 beetlelisk wrote: My humble math insight +1 attack changes almost nothing - it makes 10 not 12 gols one-shot-kill muta but not 1 less against lings, hydras, etc. +1 armor tho (combined with 1 base armor of mechs) makes muta splash damage almost obsolete and means another -25% damage dealt by lings (they do 3 ! which -40% in total ) -> gols live and do damage longerthe +5 and extra splash damage on tanks outweighs that, id think. with the old mech build youd have a point, since mass muta was a solid counter, but with the inclusion of valks you're not gonna be fighting straight battles vs a bunch of muta very much. far more likely to be hitting masses of hydra, and id think the weapon upgrade on sieged tanks vs clumps of hydra would be far more powerful. dunno though, oov and fantasy must have some reason for it. | ||
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PhilGood2DaY
Germany7424 Posts
i think that was his mistake.. | ||
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PhilGood2DaY
Germany7424 Posts
i think that this strategy is special, but its not at all unbeatable and it could go very different if the opponent reacts better | ||
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Day[9]
United States7366 Posts
On October 18 2008 16:15 MYM.Testie wrote: I also disagree with your analysis that the push was unstoppable in the first game. I have yet to look at the others. Sorry i suppose i misstated. I was asserting moreso that mech revolves around a large well timed, hugely muscled army. Any push may fail, but all are intended to be focused on muscle rather than good control. M&M tends to be about controlling the map alot more efficiently and doing cute shit throughout. | ||
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beetlelisk
Poland2276 Posts
On October 18 2008 18:34 IdrA wrote: the +5 and extra splash damage on tanks outweighs that, id think. with the old mech build youd have a point, since mass muta was a solid counter, but with the inclusion of valks you're not gonna be fighting straight battles vs a bunch of muta very much. far more likely to be hitting masses of hydra, and id think the weapon upgrade on sieged tanks vs clumps of hydra would be far more powerful. dunno though, oov and fantasy must have some reason for it. Heh, my edit timing x) + Show Spoiler + while watching Midas vs YellOw[Arnc] game on Plasma I realized that +1 attack makes sieged Tanks one-shot-kill lings if they have +1 carapace (I think even +2?) I guess it's helpful when countering mass lings with Dark Swarm... but that's so much later in the game... You need to find that out ! I'm not sure if this would really matter vs tightly clumped hydra... I think Reavers with +25 damage have wider splash damage so maybe +5 for Tanks is similar. | ||
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raga4ka
Bulgaria5679 Posts
On October 18 2008 18:15 Wonders wrote: Great article! If this mech build becomes popular on iccup then hopefully we'll start seeing some people using spawn broodling. I was thinking something along the lines of what ggplay did in the game vs medusa. 3 hatch, get hydras but only just enough to stop the vulture harass, all the while powering drones. When the spire finishes you won't make any mutas but the threat of scourge is by itself enough to stop vulture drops, so you can move out with about 12 hydras to clear mines to get your 3rd up. Then once your 3rd is up and filled with drones, instead of making mutas which do very little against upgraded goliaths and valks, make queens and hydras! Spawn broodling has even longer range than upgraded goliaths, so sniping tanks shouldn't be too hard. With very few tanks, you won't need an overwhelming economy (which the vultures deny) to match his force. Yeah that would be nice ensnare and broodlings could be useful to slow down the terran push .They could become the reverse version of the vessel use in TvZ vs mech it is about time to see terrans get a taste of their own medicine . Broodlings could be really useful too if the terran is sieged and splashes down his own units .To bad no one is trying to make a queen build and use queens effectively in TvZ , he may as well revolutionize the MU vs mech or even standart ZvT if he starts winning with it that is . Queens are used so little and just in ZvP vs carriers/sairs and i find ensnare to be such an useful ability.If someone makes a guide about it they should add replays or else it will be futile convincing the mass of people the usefulnes of queen builds as support build . I'm going to try experimanting the use of queens in ZvT and in ZvP , but don't expect a guide from me i'm just a D+ /C- zerg player on iccup at best . I will try to save some replays if they are useful and show how good queens could be in both the 2 MUs . I mean i've always thought that you could just go mass hidras and ensnare the speedy zeals and snipe the templars with broodlings if you get this build going 6 queens as support units to pick the damn templars after a muta opening of course for map control .Something like JD's build vs Best on destination , but mixed with a fully updated queens :D when the game goes on later . You send the queens first to see if they are eny units you can slow/pick off with Broodlings just like the use of vessels vs defilers / lurkers if you are going SK terran . | ||
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axel
France385 Posts
well i'm terran user myself and always loved to metal vs zerg on maps allowing it ( eQ : longinus which allows to double gas expnad with your wall). In my opinion it is right thats metal is very strong vs any zerg army in the long run BUT metal start does NOT allow a single mistake in the first minutes : i mean pro knows to wall perfectly whatever the map and the starting point ( by perfectly i mean even zergling can't pass trough), pros knows how to kill 12 gling with a single "defensive " vulture, and all of this with perfect macroing. This is not the case of most of "good" players . I have been myself owned so many times cause of a stupid mistake at start or vs all in builds ( 3 hacth gling speed whatever u mined of not , some guys are just stupid and believe in their luck ) or vs all fast pool builds ( and even if i was not owned i was so much harrassed that the power of my metal was too much delayed). I'm pretty sure there are a lot of easy counters for the zergs. | ||
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lololol
5198 Posts
On October 18 2008 18:49 beetlelisk wrote: Heh, my edit timing x) + Show Spoiler + while watching Midas vs YellOw[Arnc] game on Plasma I realized that +1 attack makes sieged Tanks one-shot-kill lings if they have +1 carapace (I think even +2?) I guess it's helpful when countering mass lings with Dark Swarm... but that's so much later in the game... You need to find that out ! I'm not sure if this would really matter vs tightly clumped hydra... I think Reavers with +25 damage have wider splash damage so maybe +5 for Tanks is similar. Nope, splash areas are the same no matter the upgrades, just the damage increases. It just looks like the area increases, because for example unupgraded Reaver deals 100/50/25 damage in 20/40/60 radius, so it can one shot kill SCVs in 20 radius, while an upgraded one deals 125/62.5/31.25 in 20/40/60 radius, resulting in SCV kills in 40 radius(but the areas are the same size). | ||
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Superbia
Netherlands8889 Posts
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StylishVODs
Sweden5331 Posts
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UbRi
Italy603 Posts
It just doesn't matter since you're going to win? In this sense, isn't it a pretty risky build order if you don't deal enough damage/delay on Z econ? | ||
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Biff The Understudy
France7916 Posts
On October 18 2008 10:32 YPang wrote: terrans are going to do this all the time on iccup now lol... Except than on iCCup, the lag doesn't allow beautifull vulture micro without speed upgrade. Unless you are really really skilled. | ||
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StylishVODs
Sweden5331 Posts
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UbRi
Italy603 Posts
Another counter is 2 hatch, 15 drones, 1 hydra den and attack, i think hydras should be ready before mine tech, but in this case z should know exactly what T is doing, probably seing a vult and a CC with the over behind T nat should be enough of a hint | ||
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AttackZerg
United States7465 Posts
If zerg scouts early factory how many viable builds are there. 1 factory >2 port wraith 1 > 2 factory 1 factory > 3 rax fast Sci and now 1 factory > FE 1 factory fast Tank push If the zerg scouts wall-in and nothing more 2 rax sunken bust 2 rax + factory sunken bust 3 rax bust. 2 rax mnm drop 2 rax acad > FE 1 rax > valk/mnm expo And all the variations from the first list! The reason these strategys are brillaint is because zerg can't go into the game thinking "Okay 3 hat muta, I'll time my speed to finish as spire is down to avoid sunkens for an earlier third" ect ect. With the number of possible variations and trust me with valkerys and mech and boxer all in the next few months we will see alot of variation zerg has to rely on intution/ overlord sacraficing (the good ole days!) and build order luck. My point I guess is that unlike terran I can't have a set playstyle because of the major differences in gameplay that day pointed out. There is no anti-mech build there is and will continue to be different styles of handling it from zerg to zerg game to game. Which I think is just fucking awesome. (Idra your vulture/valk play is ...... abusive! God you would be a cruel protoss) | ||
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