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Terran Revolutionist - Page 2

Forum Index > Final Edits
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Felagund
Profile Blog Joined December 2007
Philippines504 Posts
October 18 2008 02:34 GMT
#21
On October 18 2008 10:15 Day[9] wrote:
shit i guess this is the wrong forum

whatever t.t

Yeah should be in featured.
TL CJ Entusman #5 "now she is unarmed, u shall go gather ur army, siege ur tanks and her choke and send some vessels to spot her lurkers, at this time she may have defilers so, if u spot some, unsiege and bring fbs" -Ki_Do
mahnini
Profile Blog Joined October 2005
United States6862 Posts
October 18 2008 02:36 GMT
#22
wow great insight!
the world's a playground. you know that when you're a kid, but somewhere along the way everyone forgets it.
SK.Testie
Profile Blog Joined January 2007
Canada11084 Posts
Last Edited: 2008-10-18 02:40:51
October 18 2008 02:36 GMT
#23
You counter it by screwing over the fact that it isn't very mobile. It is one of the reasons people used to sacrifice an overlord to scout a terrans base. If you know it's coming, and you're used to playing against mech and have a keen sense of game control, you will not be bothered by it.

If it does not hurt you early and you play a heavy drone style, you will over-run it. Likewise, if there is no early expansion you can 2 hatch muta with well placed sunkens and muta-drone with well-placed overlords to completely obliterate it. Often being able to face the army and simply crush it repeatedly (not pushing into his base) while starving him.

The valkyries are not normally an issue due to the fact they take a long time to build and scourge are so very useful against them early. After a certain amount of mutas you can often cut all muta production together for a while and just hard drone+hard expand. So he cannot come out of his base. With this knowledge you must make sure drones going to expansions all over the map are not sniped. AKA overlord speed and no wasteful movements with your mutas. So essentially, in this slow to build strategy (the terrans), you can literally take the map with well placed overlords - muta - scourge - drone while eventually switching to mass hydras while the terran has likely not built enough tanks after scanning your mass air-drone build. You should have quite an economic advantage once he is able to really mobilize and finally come out. But by then, it should always be too late and you will crush the mech force repeatedly, or in the event you can't, have bought enough time to keep him running back and forth and starving him out through a mass econ style of guerrila warfare. i.e. muta+hydradrops around his armies.

While this can be said for all strategies, and there are some truly solid mech strategies out there, mech has always worked best as a surprise. Again, like most strategies, with small timing tweaks you can make mech seem nearly invincible. It is something you every Terran should have in their arsenal, and they need to know when and why to use it. From maps - to positions - even opponent can be a factor.

Defilers are also very good against it, very laaaaate game. Why late game? Most builds against mech don't have a proper transition period to defilers. As in, it leaves a weakness to be exploited to tech up to those units which take quite a while before they can be put into use effectively with plague. I recall beating a good mech terran with equal money in the past with muta-hydra turned into queen-broodling-hydra as well. So there are other options.
Social Justice is a fools errand. May all the adherents at its church be thwarted. Of all the religions I have come across, it is by far the most detestable.
SuperJongMan
Profile Blog Joined March 2003
Jamaica11586 Posts
October 18 2008 02:38 GMT
#24
Well, Fantasy thanked Oov for the Mech ideas, crediting the strategies to his coach in post game interviews.
POWER OVERWHELMING ! ! ! KRUU~ KRUU~
Ilikestarcraft
Profile Blog Joined November 2004
Korea (South)17743 Posts
October 18 2008 02:46 GMT
#25
Oov changing sc even after he retired
ils
"Nana is a goddess. Or at very least, Nana is my goddess." - KazeHydra
t_co
Profile Blog Joined July 2007
United States702 Posts
October 18 2008 02:52 GMT
#26
Finally, TvZ is no longer the one BO staple it once was...
"Look, don't congratulate us when we buy a company, congratulate us when we sell it. Because any fool can overpay and buy a company, so long as there is money to buy it." --Henry Kravis
SK.Testie
Profile Blog Joined January 2007
Canada11084 Posts
October 18 2008 02:54 GMT
#27
Just bring back Lost Temple.
You'll see some cool shit again.
;p
Social Justice is a fools errand. May all the adherents at its church be thwarted. Of all the religions I have come across, it is by far the most detestable.
IdrA
Profile Blog Joined July 2004
United States11541 Posts
Last Edited: 2008-10-18 02:57:08
October 18 2008 02:55 GMT
#28
On October 18 2008 11:36 MYM.Testie wrote:
You counter it by screwing over the fact that it isn't very mobile. It is one of the reasons people used to sacrifice an overlord to scout a terrans base. If you know it's coming, and you're used to playing against mech and have a keen sense of game control, you will not be bothered by it.

If it does not hurt you early and you play a heavy drone style, you will over-run it. Likewise, if there is no early expansion you can 2 hatch muta with well placed sunkens and muta-drone with well-placed overlords to completely obliterate it. Often being able to face the army and simply crush it repeatedly (not pushing into his base) while starving him.

The valkyries are not normally an issue due to the fact they take a long time to build and scourge are so very useful against them early. After a certain amount of mutas you can often cut all muta production together for a while and just hard drone+hard expand. So he cannot come out of his base. With this knowledge you must make sure drones going to expansions all over the map are not sniped. AKA overlord speed and no wasteful movements with your mutas. So essentially, in this slow to build strategy (the terrans), you can literally take the map with well placed overlords - muta - scourge - drone while eventually switching to mass hydras while the terran has likely not built enough tanks after scanning your mass air-drone build. You should have quite an economic advantage once he is able to really mobilize and finally come out. But by then, it should always be too late and you will crush the mech force repeatedly, or in the event you can't, have bought enough time to keep him running back and forth and starving him out through a mass econ style of guerrila warfare. i.e. muta+hydradrops around his armies.

While this can be said for all strategies, and there are some truly solid mech strategies out there, mech has always worked best as a surprise. Again, like most strategies, with small timing tweaks you can make mech seem nearly invincible. It is something you every Terran should have in their arsenal, and they need to know when and why to use it. From maps - to positions - even opponent can be a factor.

Defilers are also very good against it, very laaaaate game. Why late game? Most builds against mech don't have a proper transition period to defilers. As in, it leaves a weakness to be exploited to tech up to those units which take quite a while before they can be put into use effectively with plague. I recall beating a good mech terran with equal money in the past with muta-hydra turned into queen-broodling-hydra as well. So there are other options.

2 hat muta fails hard vs it if you know its coming, z cant overpower turrets before 2+ valks are up, and once you have decent valk count their mutas are useless and they die to the first mech push.

and you arent gonna be able to deal with it just with muta/scourge, cuz t isnt gonna be using the valks on their own unless you're underdefended vs them anyway. theyre used in combination with the gol/tank army or with turrets to stop counters, and 4 valks + goliath or turret support isnt gonna be beat by any practical number of mutas.

its pretty easy to deal with defilers late game mech unless z has an overwhelming economy in which case it doesnt really matter what units theyre using. just cut goliath count for vultures and lay mines..everywhere while mixing in vessels with the extra gas.

obviously not invincible, but mech is way better as a standard strategy than most people give it credit for.
best way to deal with it is just taking the map and overwhelm t, but with vultures preventing expos until ovie speed/mutas your economy is delayed quite a bit, which usually gives t a window to secure a massive econ of their own or to timing push.

fantasy's vulture drop is really a nice touch though. ggplay defended it completely on medusa and was still way behind in econ just cuz to get enough hydras to cover everything he had to cut alot of drones.
http://www.splitreason.com/product/1152 release the gracken tshirt now available
SilverSkyLark
Profile Blog Joined April 2008
Philippines8437 Posts
October 18 2008 02:59 GMT
#29
The Jaedong Flash game was like Jaedong sending his lings to siege tanks to get them slaughtered. Maybe Dark Swarm + Plague would have been better.
"If i lost an arm, I would play w3." -IntoTheWow || "Member of Hyuk Hyuk Hyuk cafe. He's the next Jaedong, baby!"
Xusneb
Profile Blog Joined November 2006
Canada612 Posts
October 18 2008 03:17 GMT
#30
This was a great read. It's very refreshing to see a well explained analysis made by someone with an exceptional understanding of the game. Thanks, DAy[9]
If you want to be happy, be. - Leo Tolstoy
NeoIllusions
Profile Blog Joined December 2002
United States37500 Posts
October 18 2008 03:26 GMT
#31
gawd, good read. Feature this asaply. Has some great insight to the current metagame of TvZ.
ModeratorFor the Glory that is TeamLiquid (-9 | 155) | Discord: NeoIllusions#1984
thunk
Profile Blog Joined March 2008
United States6233 Posts
October 18 2008 03:46 GMT
#32
It was a really nice write up. I thought the maps bit and the threat bit was really relevant and needed to be expressed in words.
Every time Jung Myung Hoon builds a vulture, two probes die. || My post count was a palindrome and I was never posting again.
fanatacist
Profile Blog Joined August 2007
10319 Posts
October 18 2008 04:01 GMT
#33
Awesome post. I love your analysis and attention to detail. Simply a 10/10 thread.
Peace~
evanthebouncy!
Profile Blog Joined June 2006
United States12816 Posts
October 18 2008 04:05 GMT
#34
GGplay did fine. Had he not counter the expo and lost a lot of units he would've been in good shape still.
Life is run, it is dance, it is fast, passionate and BAM!, you dance and sing and booze while you can for now is the time and time is mine. Smile and laugh when still can for now is the time and soon you die!
Bob_Doyle
Profile Blog Joined August 2008
Korea (South)35 Posts
Last Edited: 2008-10-18 04:12:17
October 18 2008 04:07 GMT
#35
according to interview , Fantasy says ' iloveoov made build and gave me All of mech build order ' then Fantasy is not revolutionist but iloveoov is revolutionist!!!!!!!!!!!! If iloveoov were not coach, he would not win ggplay with mech build
MrHoon *
Profile Blog Joined April 2008
10183 Posts
October 18 2008 04:16 GMT
#36
very nice writeup! <3 flash
dats racist
SpiralArchitect
Profile Blog Joined December 2006
United States2116 Posts
October 18 2008 04:16 GMT
#37
Great read man. I definitely agree on your analysis of Fantasys strategy, I just wish GGPlay could have handled it.
TeamLiquids #1 illiterate writer, writin dem wordz is de hardz.
SK.Testie
Profile Blog Joined January 2007
Canada11084 Posts
October 18 2008 04:20 GMT
#38
On October 18 2008 11:55 IdrA wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 18 2008 11:36 MYM.Testie wrote:
You counter it by screwing over the fact that it isn't very mobile. It is one of the reasons people used to sacrifice an overlord to scout a terrans base. If you know it's coming, and you're used to playing against mech and have a keen sense of game control, you will not be bothered by it.

If it does not hurt you early and you play a heavy drone style, you will over-run it. Likewise, if there is no early expansion you can 2 hatch muta with well placed sunkens and muta-drone with well-placed overlords to completely obliterate it. Often being able to face the army and simply crush it repeatedly (not pushing into his base) while starving him.

The valkyries are not normally an issue due to the fact they take a long time to build and scourge are so very useful against them early. After a certain amount of mutas you can often cut all muta production together for a while and just hard drone+hard expand. So he cannot come out of his base. With this knowledge you must make sure drones going to expansions all over the map are not sniped. AKA overlord speed and no wasteful movements with your mutas. So essentially, in this slow to build strategy (the terrans), you can literally take the map with well placed overlords - muta - scourge - drone while eventually switching to mass hydras while the terran has likely not built enough tanks after scanning your mass air-drone build. You should have quite an economic advantage once he is able to really mobilize and finally come out. But by then, it should always be too late and you will crush the mech force repeatedly, or in the event you can't, have bought enough time to keep him running back and forth and starving him out through a mass econ style of guerrila warfare. i.e. muta+hydradrops around his armies.

While this can be said for all strategies, and there are some truly solid mech strategies out there, mech has always worked best as a surprise. Again, like most strategies, with small timing tweaks you can make mech seem nearly invincible. It is something you every Terran should have in their arsenal, and they need to know when and why to use it. From maps - to positions - even opponent can be a factor.

Defilers are also very good against it, very laaaaate game. Why late game? Most builds against mech don't have a proper transition period to defilers. As in, it leaves a weakness to be exploited to tech up to those units which take quite a while before they can be put into use effectively with plague. I recall beating a good mech terran with equal money in the past with muta-hydra turned into queen-broodling-hydra as well. So there are other options.

2 hat muta fails hard vs it if you know its coming, z cant overpower turrets before 2+ valks are up, and once you have decent valk count their mutas are useless and they die to the first mech push.

and you arent gonna be able to deal with it just with muta/scourge, cuz t isnt gonna be using the valks on their own unless you're underdefended vs them anyway. theyre used in combination with the gol/tank army or with turrets to stop counters, and 4 valks + goliath or turret support isnt gonna be beat by any practical number of mutas.

its pretty easy to deal with defilers late game mech unless z has an overwhelming economy in which case it doesnt really matter what units theyre using. just cut goliath count for vultures and lay mines..everywhere while mixing in vessels with the extra gas.

obviously not invincible, but mech is way better as a standard strategy than most people give it credit for.
best way to deal with it is just taking the map and overwhelm t, but with vultures preventing expos until ovie speed/mutas your economy is delayed quite a bit, which usually gives t a window to secure a massive econ of their own or to timing push.

fantasy's vulture drop is really a nice touch though. ggplay defended it completely on medusa and was still way behind in econ just cuz to get enough hydras to cover everything he had to cut alot of drones.


As usual, it is all dependent on maps-scouting etc. i.e. if you denied scouting with drones on a ramp etc so that they are essentially in the dark and will do their build not knowing what is coming the strategy I outlaid will usually result in an overwhelming defeat for Terran while being versatile enough to switch if needed with +1-+2 carapace mutas - overlords - scourge securing map control.
Social Justice is a fools errand. May all the adherents at its church be thwarted. Of all the religions I have come across, it is by far the most detestable.
Day[9]
Profile Blog Joined April 2003
United States7366 Posts
October 18 2008 04:51 GMT
#39
On October 18 2008 10:51 IdrA wrote:
he opened +1 armor, not weapon
at least on chupung (and plasma though that was a different build)
didnt see on medusa


ah sorry i couldn't tell because my resolution was too crappy. i just chose one and went w/ it hehe

i'll update it in a sec : ]
Whenever I encounter some little hitch, or some of my orbs get out of orbit, nothing pleases me so much as to make the crooked straight and crush down uneven places. www.day9.tv
sixghost
Profile Blog Joined November 2007
United States2096 Posts
October 18 2008 05:06 GMT
#40
Correct me if i'm wrong but it seems like this strategy has some definate holes in it for Z to take advantage of, especially if it starts to become more common. GGPlay had likely never seen something like this more than a few times and still was extremely close to taking game 4, and had a nice advantage in game 2 before he attacked into fantasy's natural with 4-5 tanks. It seemed like alot of it was due to inexperience controlling vs the valks, a few times if he had maybe 2 more pairs of scourge the game would have been turned around.

I think we definately saw that it can be a hard thing to deal with if you are taken off guard by it, but do are you sold yet that it will be a legitmate build if it starts to see regular use day?
mG.sixghost @ iCCup || One ling, two ling, three ling, four... Camp four gas, then ultra-whore . -Saracen
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