Terran Revolutionist by Day[9] TeamLiquid: Final Edits
Note: This article contains spoilers from the Fantasy vs GGPlay OSL Semifinal.
Though fairly untypical in TvZ, a well played mech can crush a zerg opponent in a suave, decisive fashion. In professional play, we’ve seen mech frequently used on Arkanoid, Katrina, and Baekmagoji, but last night we saw something revolutionary. Fantasy absolutely ape-smashed GGPlay 3-1, a defeat which displayed the most ingenious transitional mech play I’ve seen in the past 5 years. As innovative as Fantasy’s play was, I see many people misanalyzing or completely overlooking the key sexy aspects of Fantasy’s play. Consequently, I’d like to provide a strategic analysis article to highlight Fantasy’s inspired mech gameflow.
Typical M&M TvZ vs Typical Mech TvZ Before we focus on Fantasy’s amazingness, let’s discuss a bit of the basic functionality of TvZ. With standard M&M, the terran has the opportunity to be aggressive and finesseful. Early gameplay begins by pressuring w/ M&M groups. Mid to late game has dropships flying around the map and groups of M&M patrolling the center to negate aggressive swarm play. In fact, the only time terrans regularly sit and turtle in their base is early-midgame: zerg has lurkers and terran doesn’t have vessels. The remainder of the time is spent being in zerg’s face until zerg finally crumbles. Zerg generally remains cornered, on the defensive, until the momentum from his gas expansions and hive tech can finally swing back and win near the end of the game.
M&M can work well in small numbers, yet still remain fairly fragile in large numbers (as misclicks w/ lurkers, swarms, and plague are all difficult to deal with). Because M&M is so aggressive, zerg players must be extremely careful when taking additional expansions. Even defending a 3rd gas expansion in the mid-game is a huge issue for a zerg player. Also, the best defense for terran expansions is to be aggressive: by remaining in zerg’s face, counter-attacking by zerg becomes too risky. Semi-open maps allow M&M to maneuver well without being so open that zerg can surround or counter attack too easily.
However, consider mech play against zerg. Mech completely reverses the traditional aspects of TvZ. Mech is significantly less mobile, as tanks/goliaths rely heavily on being in large groups (and tanks have to be sieged to be fully effective). In mech play, since units are so immobile, it’s difficult for the terran player to expand to corners of the map and try to avoid counterattack. Expansions must be well defended. Likewise, with this immobility, the zerg opponent has the opportunity to expand significantly more without worry. That said, mech armies become exponentially stronger in large numbers, to the point where 16 tanks + 40 goliaths + vessels becomes a virtually impregnable force. Consequently, mech focuses more on being a good “one punch” style army, an army which attempts to build up to a single, solid push and win. This contrasts sharply with M&M that aggressively pressures zerg all game long. Additionally, in tighter, more cramped spaces, a mech player worries even less about flanks or counterattacks and the strength of his army is further magnified. Also, mech is fairly costly, so expansions are a more necessary than with the finesse driven M&M play.
Mech History and Map Analysis With this in mind, we begin to see why mech works on some maps and fails miserably on others. Katrina is a great example of a solid mech map. The expansions are placed in a way such that, whichever direction the terran player wishes to push, expoes are easily defendable. The 3rd gas is right outside terran’s front door. When terran pushes towards zerg, there are always at least 2 expansions along the way. Consequently, terran can essentially play like a giant blob, slowly gooping over all nearby expansions without good angles for zerg to flank. Once terran gets a nice solid big army, its time for that 1 punch win. Even should zerg take a huge number of expasnsions (which, as we’ve said, he can easily do), the strength of the terran army punch is simply too much. A simple example of this logic in action is Flash vs Jaedong
Notice how much Jaedong expands. Notice how many units Jaedong makes. Notice how little it matters. The entire game revolves around this slow, army blob by Flash. The push isn’t quick by any means, it’s simply unstoppable. In another example, consider Flash vs Savior from the October Proleague.
Flash spends much of the later stages of the game just expanding and defending. Mech is SOLID. Mech operates in that “slowly, but surely” type of way. (I think Savior violently misplayed this game, but that analysis is for another day).
However, I should be fair and point out how badly a great player like Flash can screw mech up. Consider his game against GGPlay on Medusa
Medusa is quite possibly one of the most terrible maps to go mech on. The only easily defendable expansions are the 2 natural expansions. Once Flash begins to push towards the center of the map, he’s committed either to defending his expansion + main choke, or pushing towards the zerg. As we’ve pointed out, with mech being so immobile, zerg has the opportunity to take the map uncontested and produce a mass army. In contrast to Katrina vs Jaedong, where Flash’s push could squeeze down tight alleys, Flash’s push on Medusa is in a wide open middle. Consequently, zerg’s big army can effectively crush the “one punch terran push” with openness to surround, flank, and counter. Moreover, since all the expansions are like spokes branching off the center, terran has a much slower time eliminating expansions one by one. Any decision to push an expansion runs the risk of leaving the middle wide open. Put plainly, DON’T mech on this map
That is, unless you’re a god damn genius like Fantasy
Fantasy’s revolutionary Mech Play
Fantasy concocted a brilliant opening which enabled him to mech on seemingly un-mechable maps by preventing typical zerg responses. The (rough) opening is as follows:
1) Wall in and gas on 12 2) Build a factory ASAP 3) When factory finishes, build the addon and begin a starport 4) When the factory addon finishes, begin producing vultures (up to 4) and upgrading mines+speed 5) When you can, get a CC at your expansion and start producing a dropship, get an armory for +1 attack upgrade, and try to sneak vultures in the front. Be sure to lay mines in front of zerg’s main if you can’t get in. 6) Add on a 2nd factory, drop harass w/ vultures + mines, build 1 valkyrie and start goliath-ing, your expo should be done by now.
You will have the overall look of main+natural+2 facs+starport making gollies. Upgrades will be on the way and you’ll be harassing zerg aggressively. Some brief notes:
Early game advantages: -Negates ling allins (vultures+mines+wallin) -Gives the opportunity to harass w/ initial vulture -Gets a relatively fast expansion that’s quite safe -Mines prevent scouting lings and discourage early hydra pushes -The fast dropship not only allows for a quick scout, but also quick pressure that discourages zerg’s 3rd/4th expansion. -vs Mutalisks the valk+goliath transition easily and holds well -vs Lurkers the vult/mines+goliaths+harass negate an overly strong early ling/lurk push -vs mass ground you have already delayed his expanding and can transition to tanks+mass army
The dropship vulture opening is the entire key to the build. The primary mech counters to zerg revolve around the ability to expand so much since mech is so immobile. (Refer to my post in this thread for some common counters). Vs M&M, zerg can be cute and do MASSIVE damage with a few amount of units (think how bad a few lurkers+swarm can rape a huge M&M+tank army). However, mech units are just big, and need to be outmuscled. There’s no cute way to kill mech. Having a lot of “stuff” is the key to killing a mech army. Since having a lot of expansions is the key to having a lot of “stuff,” many expansions = lots of zerg “stuff.”
The fast dropship prevents the zerg player from expanding too much in the early midgame, as he’s overly concerned about defending his main. Moreover, the harass slows down zerg’s tech, drone count, and messes with his focus. For the most part, zerg will have a hard time leaving his base until mutas are out, he kills the dropship, or he finally has all corners of his base well defended.
Suddenly, Medusa, which clearly sucked so hard for mech (with its openness) is perfect for early vulture harass. Zerg has his first 3 hatches spread (main, nat, mineral nat) so zerg needs to spend WAY more energy defending himself from all possible angles. As noted in the VOD below, by the time the vulture harass is finished, GGPlay is hardly in the position to start mass expanding as he’s spent so many resources just staying alive. Meanwhile, Fantasy is happily defended back at home and is even in base count. The evenness in base count immediately makes the transition to mech viable, as the primary danger (mass expanding) has been eliminated by vulture harass. If fantasy just early expanded and then went mech, zerg would have easily taken at least 2 expansions, screwing terran’s midgame play.
Cleverly, after the vulture harass, the combination of goliath+tank+valkyrie allows fantasy to prepare for mutas or hydras with relatively few units. Should fantasy have relied solely on factory units, a well timed muta counter attack could have been dangerous. Additionally, the vulture scout allows fantasy to adjust his unit composition more appropriately (we saw more tanks on Medusa and virtually no tanks on Autumn Wind.) Now that I mention it, the game on Autumn Wind is a great example of how well the build deals with fast mutalisks as well.
One might immediately ask “if the vulture harass is the key to this build, why not transition to M&M instead of mech?” The answer is that the mech transition is smoother. The valkyrie + goliath combination is key to holding off a quick mutalisk harass as the units are incredibly strong. To transition to valk+goliath, Fantasy only needed to add an armory and a factory. However, should Fantasy have decided to go M&M, he would have been adding on an e-bay, more barracks, then he would have needed the time to make lots of M&M, get an academy, make turrets (turrets will be more necessary with marine range+stim delayed) etc etc etc. Clearly, mech is the strongest transition from this opening.
Fantasy didn’t just “go mech,” he devised a completely unique, wacko opening that levels the playing field for a meching terran on those seemingly unmechable maps. The transition from ultra fast vulture+mine harass to a valkyrie+2 factory combo ensures that he’s safe from counter attack and ready to power hard for a big mid-game push. After 10 years of playing this game competitively, I’m just giddy that there are random new players like Fantasy still revolutionizing play in ways I least expected.
God dang, I remember that Flash v Jaedong game especially... I was so pissed watching and just asking how the heck can you overcome this! It's such an underused strategy but so OVERLY legitimate that it's disgusting. I play so much standard versus other players that it catches me off guard hard when I encounter strats like these.
Day, thanks for pursuing out of the box strats and praising them for legitimacy. Seriously, Starcraft isn't bound to standard rules that everybody thrashes and wails about in the strat forum... this game is still changing!!!
F U forever for posting the exact build order though... ICCup is going to suck very soon for Zergs...
what impresses me so much is that fantasy didn't do this just because it was "unorthodox." He did it because it was a solid, start-to-finish gameplay. Even if I practiced vs this build 50 times, I'm sure i'd still struggle against it.
great read, I find it hard to transition from early vulture harass to mnm also. I totally agree with this statement.
The valkyrie + goliath combination is key to holding off a quick mutalisk harass as the units are incredibly strong. To transition to valk+goliath, Fantasy only needed to add an armory and a factory. However, should Fantasy have decided to go M&M, he would have been adding on an e-bay, more barracks, then he would have needed the time to make lots of M&M, get an academy, make turrets (turrets will be more necessary with marine range+stim delayed) etc etc etc. Clearly, mech is the strongest transition from this opening.
EDIT: Had some time left so I read it. I still think if GGplay had played better in game 4 he could've had the game. His muta/ling/scourge composition was a good counter. I bet if he'd actually practiced against it he'd have had the timing down.
I feel for Zerg. As you have shown in detail there's a lot of pressure on zerg from a good application of this build, plenty of pressure and a strong, solid plan in mind. Should be interesting to see how Zerg players have to change their playstyle and thinking to deal with this.
You counter it by screwing over the fact that it isn't very mobile. It is one of the reasons people used to sacrifice an overlord to scout a terrans base. If you know it's coming, and you're used to playing against mech and have a keen sense of game control, you will not be bothered by it.
If it does not hurt you early and you play a heavy drone style, you will over-run it. Likewise, if there is no early expansion you can 2 hatch muta with well placed sunkens and muta-drone with well-placed overlords to completely obliterate it. Often being able to face the army and simply crush it repeatedly (not pushing into his base) while starving him.
The valkyries are not normally an issue due to the fact they take a long time to build and scourge are so very useful against them early. After a certain amount of mutas you can often cut all muta production together for a while and just hard drone+hard expand. So he cannot come out of his base. With this knowledge you must make sure drones going to expansions all over the map are not sniped. AKA overlord speed and no wasteful movements with your mutas. So essentially, in this slow to build strategy (the terrans), you can literally take the map with well placed overlords - muta - scourge - drone while eventually switching to mass hydras while the terran has likely not built enough tanks after scanning your mass air-drone build. You should have quite an economic advantage once he is able to really mobilize and finally come out. But by then, it should always be too late and you will crush the mech force repeatedly, or in the event you can't, have bought enough time to keep him running back and forth and starving him out through a mass econ style of guerrila warfare. i.e. muta+hydradrops around his armies.
While this can be said for all strategies, and there are some truly solid mech strategies out there, mech has always worked best as a surprise. Again, like most strategies, with small timing tweaks you can make mech seem nearly invincible. It is something you every Terran should have in their arsenal, and they need to know when and why to use it. From maps - to positions - even opponent can be a factor.
Defilers are also very good against it, very laaaaate game. Why late game? Most builds against mech don't have a proper transition period to defilers. As in, it leaves a weakness to be exploited to tech up to those units which take quite a while before they can be put into use effectively with plague. I recall beating a good mech terran with equal money in the past with muta-hydra turned into queen-broodling-hydra as well. So there are other options.
On October 18 2008 11:36 MYM.Testie wrote: You counter it by screwing over the fact that it isn't very mobile. It is one of the reasons people used to sacrifice an overlord to scout a terrans base. If you know it's coming, and you're used to playing against mech and have a keen sense of game control, you will not be bothered by it.
If it does not hurt you early and you play a heavy drone style, you will over-run it. Likewise, if there is no early expansion you can 2 hatch muta with well placed sunkens and muta-drone with well-placed overlords to completely obliterate it. Often being able to face the army and simply crush it repeatedly (not pushing into his base) while starving him.
The valkyries are not normally an issue due to the fact they take a long time to build and scourge are so very useful against them early. After a certain amount of mutas you can often cut all muta production together for a while and just hard drone+hard expand. So he cannot come out of his base. With this knowledge you must make sure drones going to expansions all over the map are not sniped. AKA overlord speed and no wasteful movements with your mutas. So essentially, in this slow to build strategy (the terrans), you can literally take the map with well placed overlords - muta - scourge - drone while eventually switching to mass hydras while the terran has likely not built enough tanks after scanning your mass air-drone build. You should have quite an economic advantage once he is able to really mobilize and finally come out. But by then, it should always be too late and you will crush the mech force repeatedly, or in the event you can't, have bought enough time to keep him running back and forth and starving him out through a mass econ style of guerrila warfare. i.e. muta+hydradrops around his armies.
While this can be said for all strategies, and there are some truly solid mech strategies out there, mech has always worked best as a surprise. Again, like most strategies, with small timing tweaks you can make mech seem nearly invincible. It is something you every Terran should have in their arsenal, and they need to know when and why to use it. From maps - to positions - even opponent can be a factor.
Defilers are also very good against it, very laaaaate game. Why late game? Most builds against mech don't have a proper transition period to defilers. As in, it leaves a weakness to be exploited to tech up to those units which take quite a while before they can be put into use effectively with plague. I recall beating a good mech terran with equal money in the past with muta-hydra turned into queen-broodling-hydra as well. So there are other options.
2 hat muta fails hard vs it if you know its coming, z cant overpower turrets before 2+ valks are up, and once you have decent valk count their mutas are useless and they die to the first mech push.
and you arent gonna be able to deal with it just with muta/scourge, cuz t isnt gonna be using the valks on their own unless you're underdefended vs them anyway. theyre used in combination with the gol/tank army or with turrets to stop counters, and 4 valks + goliath or turret support isnt gonna be beat by any practical number of mutas.
its pretty easy to deal with defilers late game mech unless z has an overwhelming economy in which case it doesnt really matter what units theyre using. just cut goliath count for vultures and lay mines..everywhere while mixing in vessels with the extra gas.
obviously not invincible, but mech is way better as a standard strategy than most people give it credit for. best way to deal with it is just taking the map and overwhelm t, but with vultures preventing expos until ovie speed/mutas your economy is delayed quite a bit, which usually gives t a window to secure a massive econ of their own or to timing push.
fantasy's vulture drop is really a nice touch though. ggplay defended it completely on medusa and was still way behind in econ just cuz to get enough hydras to cover everything he had to cut alot of drones.
This was a great read. It's very refreshing to see a well explained analysis made by someone with an exceptional understanding of the game. Thanks, DAy[9]
according to interview , Fantasy says ' iloveoov made build and gave me All of mech build order ' then Fantasy is not revolutionist but iloveoov is revolutionist!!!!!!!!!!!! If iloveoov were not coach, he would not win ggplay with mech build
On October 18 2008 11:36 MYM.Testie wrote: You counter it by screwing over the fact that it isn't very mobile. It is one of the reasons people used to sacrifice an overlord to scout a terrans base. If you know it's coming, and you're used to playing against mech and have a keen sense of game control, you will not be bothered by it.
If it does not hurt you early and you play a heavy drone style, you will over-run it. Likewise, if there is no early expansion you can 2 hatch muta with well placed sunkens and muta-drone with well-placed overlords to completely obliterate it. Often being able to face the army and simply crush it repeatedly (not pushing into his base) while starving him.
The valkyries are not normally an issue due to the fact they take a long time to build and scourge are so very useful against them early. After a certain amount of mutas you can often cut all muta production together for a while and just hard drone+hard expand. So he cannot come out of his base. With this knowledge you must make sure drones going to expansions all over the map are not sniped. AKA overlord speed and no wasteful movements with your mutas. So essentially, in this slow to build strategy (the terrans), you can literally take the map with well placed overlords - muta - scourge - drone while eventually switching to mass hydras while the terran has likely not built enough tanks after scanning your mass air-drone build. You should have quite an economic advantage once he is able to really mobilize and finally come out. But by then, it should always be too late and you will crush the mech force repeatedly, or in the event you can't, have bought enough time to keep him running back and forth and starving him out through a mass econ style of guerrila warfare. i.e. muta+hydradrops around his armies.
While this can be said for all strategies, and there are some truly solid mech strategies out there, mech has always worked best as a surprise. Again, like most strategies, with small timing tweaks you can make mech seem nearly invincible. It is something you every Terran should have in their arsenal, and they need to know when and why to use it. From maps - to positions - even opponent can be a factor.
Defilers are also very good against it, very laaaaate game. Why late game? Most builds against mech don't have a proper transition period to defilers. As in, it leaves a weakness to be exploited to tech up to those units which take quite a while before they can be put into use effectively with plague. I recall beating a good mech terran with equal money in the past with muta-hydra turned into queen-broodling-hydra as well. So there are other options.
2 hat muta fails hard vs it if you know its coming, z cant overpower turrets before 2+ valks are up, and once you have decent valk count their mutas are useless and they die to the first mech push.
and you arent gonna be able to deal with it just with muta/scourge, cuz t isnt gonna be using the valks on their own unless you're underdefended vs them anyway. theyre used in combination with the gol/tank army or with turrets to stop counters, and 4 valks + goliath or turret support isnt gonna be beat by any practical number of mutas.
its pretty easy to deal with defilers late game mech unless z has an overwhelming economy in which case it doesnt really matter what units theyre using. just cut goliath count for vultures and lay mines..everywhere while mixing in vessels with the extra gas.
obviously not invincible, but mech is way better as a standard strategy than most people give it credit for. best way to deal with it is just taking the map and overwhelm t, but with vultures preventing expos until ovie speed/mutas your economy is delayed quite a bit, which usually gives t a window to secure a massive econ of their own or to timing push.
fantasy's vulture drop is really a nice touch though. ggplay defended it completely on medusa and was still way behind in econ just cuz to get enough hydras to cover everything he had to cut alot of drones.
As usual, it is all dependent on maps-scouting etc. i.e. if you denied scouting with drones on a ramp etc so that they are essentially in the dark and will do their build not knowing what is coming the strategy I outlaid will usually result in an overwhelming defeat for Terran while being versatile enough to switch if needed with +1-+2 carapace mutas - overlords - scourge securing map control.
On October 18 2008 10:51 IdrA wrote: he opened +1 armor, not weapon at least on chupung (and plasma though that was a different build) didnt see on medusa
ah sorry i couldn't tell because my resolution was too crappy. i just chose one and went w/ it hehe
Correct me if i'm wrong but it seems like this strategy has some definate holes in it for Z to take advantage of, especially if it starts to become more common. GGPlay had likely never seen something like this more than a few times and still was extremely close to taking game 4, and had a nice advantage in game 2 before he attacked into fantasy's natural with 4-5 tanks. It seemed like alot of it was due to inexperience controlling vs the valks, a few times if he had maybe 2 more pairs of scourge the game would have been turned around.
I think we definately saw that it can be a hard thing to deal with if you are taken off guard by it, but do are you sold yet that it will be a legitmate build if it starts to see regular use day?
draw, ensnare, allin with skipped lordspeed and diagonally deployed advance slowlords to clear the minefield? also skip lingspeed and work out if a main sunk is better than not. also tune muta/scourge counts and also see if +1 ling carapace can be squeezed in. probably also make a clumsy expansion attempt, preferably running the drone over the mine a few times and then walking a slowlord into view.
I'd recommend moving this to featured, but I'm afraid no one would see it once it got moved there. Featured is where many good threads seem to go to die
I also disagree with your analysis that the push was unstoppable in the first game. I have yet to look at the others.
Jaedong made critical errors that game and played a sloppy over-confident style against mech. (He did fine up until the point he wasted all his units). Despite starting with a build not necessarily designed to fight mech but being versatile enough to handle it, he did well and had a chance to win (and likely would have if he had not committed suicide). Atleast at the point he lost. He had multiple avenues to take to delay that game, waiting for his superior economy to really give him an edge, but he chose the wrong one and was overconfident about guardians over cliffs against goliaths. Hence the wasted hydras that shouldn't have engaged the tanks from that position, as they did not serve their purpose and melted. Rather than calling the push unstoppable in that game, pay closer attention to his units, what they could have done, what other avenues he could have explored to buy himself some more time for his economy to kick in and so on.
On October 18 2008 11:36 MYM.Testie wrote: You counter it by screwing over the fact that it isn't very mobile. It is one of the reasons people used to sacrifice an overlord to scout a terrans base. If you know it's coming, and you're used to playing against mech and have a keen sense of game control, you will not be bothered by it.
If it does not hurt you early and you play a heavy drone style, you will over-run it. Likewise, if there is no early expansion you can 2 hatch muta with well placed sunkens and muta-drone with well-placed overlords to completely obliterate it. Often being able to face the army and simply crush it repeatedly (not pushing into his base) while starving him.
The valkyries are not normally an issue due to the fact they take a long time to build and scourge are so very useful against them early. After a certain amount of mutas you can often cut all muta production together for a while and just hard drone+hard expand. So he cannot come out of his base. With this knowledge you must make sure drones going to expansions all over the map are not sniped. AKA overlord speed and no wasteful movements with your mutas. So essentially, in this slow to build strategy (the terrans), you can literally take the map with well placed overlords - muta - scourge - drone while eventually switching to mass hydras while the terran has likely not built enough tanks after scanning your mass air-drone build. You should have quite an economic advantage once he is able to really mobilize and finally come out. But by then, it should always be too late and you will crush the mech force repeatedly, or in the event you can't, have bought enough time to keep him running back and forth and starving him out through a mass econ style of guerrila warfare. i.e. muta+hydradrops around his armies.
While this can be said for all strategies, and there are some truly solid mech strategies out there, mech has always worked best as a surprise. Again, like most strategies, with small timing tweaks you can make mech seem nearly invincible. It is something you every Terran should have in their arsenal, and they need to know when and why to use it. From maps - to positions - even opponent can be a factor.
Defilers are also very good against it, very laaaaate game. Why late game? Most builds against mech don't have a proper transition period to defilers. As in, it leaves a weakness to be exploited to tech up to those units which take quite a while before they can be put into use effectively with plague. I recall beating a good mech terran with equal money in the past with muta-hydra turned into queen-broodling-hydra as well. So there are other options.
2 hat muta fails hard vs it if you know its coming, z cant overpower turrets before 2+ valks are up, and once you have decent valk count their mutas are useless and they die to the first mech push.
and you arent gonna be able to deal with it just with muta/scourge, cuz t isnt gonna be using the valks on their own unless you're underdefended vs them anyway. theyre used in combination with the gol/tank army or with turrets to stop counters, and 4 valks + goliath or turret support isnt gonna be beat by any practical number of mutas.
its pretty easy to deal with defilers late game mech unless z has an overwhelming economy in which case it doesnt really matter what units theyre using. just cut goliath count for vultures and lay mines..everywhere while mixing in vessels with the extra gas.
obviously not invincible, but mech is way better as a standard strategy than most people give it credit for. best way to deal with it is just taking the map and overwhelm t, but with vultures preventing expos until ovie speed/mutas your economy is delayed quite a bit, which usually gives t a window to secure a massive econ of their own or to timing push.
fantasy's vulture drop is really a nice touch though. ggplay defended it completely on medusa and was still way behind in econ just cuz to get enough hydras to cover everything he had to cut alot of drones.
As usual, it is all dependent on maps-scouting etc. i.e. if you denied scouting with drones on a ramp etc so that they are essentially in the dark and will do their build not knowing what is coming the strategy I outlaid will usually result in an overwhelming defeat for Terran while being versatile enough to switch if needed with +1-+2 carapace mutas - overlords - scourge securing map control.
spending 2 of your 11 drones to keep an scv out sets you back a decent bit and tells terran that you're doing something gay anyway, they just dont know what. but given how common 2 hat muta has become its a fair guess, and you have mines out in time to stop any kind of hydra rush. if you opt for the power heavy option the vult drop destroys you, you need more than a couple hydras to stop 4 vults with mines. the chupung and medusa games show, even if the vult drop doesnt really do much at all you spend so much defending it that terran is still gonna be ahead in econ anyway with the fast expo.
there really is no sure fire counter to it. the hidden 2 hat muta is the closest bet, but 2 hat muta vs a fe mech build is very allin and theres a good chance terran will guess what you're doing anyway, since nothing else youd want to hide would really work.
Also remember, people, that GGplay is quite good against mech, he destroyed Flash twice (ok he needed Flash to be overconfident) but lost 3 times to Fantasy.
11 drones? 2 ? You can spend one at a time as each one loses health. Again it is dependent on the map. How many locations and so on. I just remember many similar builds used on Lost Temple. 2 hatch muta being very common there so that the terran doesn't take your cliff and so on. X'ds~Kiwi was notorious for vult drop-expo-mech.
On October 18 2008 16:57 MYM.Testie wrote: 11 drones? 2 ? You can spend one at a time as each one loses health. Again it is dependent on the map. How many locations and so on. I just remember many similar builds used on Lost Temple. 2 hatch muta being very common there so that the terran doesn't take your cliff and so on. X'ds~Kiwi was notorious for vult drop-expo-mech.
you're gonna have to have drones on your ramp around the time you start your pool unless you want to pray they dont scout you first and you're gonna have 2 drones off the mineral line whether you leave 2 on the ramp or you're switching them in and out given travel time between min line and ramp.
it really doesnt depend on the map or positions, even if its 4 spot map you're flipping a coin if you dont put drones there early. obviously you'll get away with it some of the time, but my point was the entire thing is a gamble(a pretty risky one at that), not a solid counter to the build.
and vult drop-expo-mech is quite different from vult drop-expo-valk-mech. 2 hat muta works vs one, not the other.
On October 18 2008 17:00 AnOth3rDAy wrote: i wonder, is it +1 attack or +1armor for fantasy? i think im seeing +1 armor but its hard to tell due to bad quality
usually i thought +1 attack was the best option but maybe im wrong.. hmm
he was getting +1 armor. i dont really know the rationale, i think +1 attack is better.
On October 18 2008 17:00 AnOth3rDAy wrote: i wonder, is it +1 attack or +1armor for fantasy? i think im seeing +1 armor but its hard to tell due to bad quality
usually i thought +1 attack was the best option but maybe im wrong.. hmm
he was getting +1 armor. i dont really know the rationale, i think +1 attack is better.
Great write up day!
Idra can we expect to see some clever adaptations of mech play in your TvZ in the future?
On October 18 2008 17:13 IdrA wrote: and vult drop-expo-mech is quite different from vult drop-expo-valk-mech. 2 hat muta works vs one, not the other.
Hrm, I remember playing vs similar strategies extensively on lost temple and through various minor adjustments you can always defeat a mech strat if you know it's coming like, 100%. But I'll take your word for it on this particular set build order as players timings have been hammered far more since then to adjust for adjustments etc.
On October 18 2008 17:00 AnOth3rDAy wrote: i wonder, is it +1 attack or +1armor for fantasy? i think im seeing +1 armor but its hard to tell due to bad quality
usually i thought +1 attack was the best option but maybe im wrong.. hmm
he was getting +1 armor. i dont really know the rationale, i think +1 attack is better.
Great write up day!
Idra can we expect to see some clever adaptations of mech play in your TvZ in the future?
Hmm is it that hard to out macro , out tech or out manoeuvre a mech terran ? To bad i don't have a practise partner for ZvT .
I never thought that the terran mech push when it gets big is unstropable , you just need the necessary provisions at least 4 fully saturated bases to keep your macro going unlimited amount of plague and dark swarm and hidra/mutas and updates .
I think Mech build vs zerg are pretty bad on Big maps because the zerg can always out manoeuvre a mech terran late game just go counter 1 of his expos with mass mutas or doom drop and delay the push with lurkers under swarm and plague . Thought it is still hard to pullof
On October 18 2008 17:00 AnOth3rDAy wrote: i wonder, is it +1 attack or +1armor for fantasy? i think im seeing +1 armor but its hard to tell due to bad quality
usually i thought +1 attack was the best option but maybe im wrong.. hmm
he was getting +1 armor. i dont really know the rationale, i think +1 attack is better.
My humble math insight
+1 attack changes almost nothing - it makes 10 not 12 gols one-shot-kill muta but not 1 less against lings, hydras, etc. +1 armor tho (combined with 1 base armor of mechs) makes muta splash damage almost obsolete and means another -25% damage dealt by lings (they do 3 ! which -40% in total) -> gols live and do damage longer
edit: while watching Midas vs YellOw[Arnc] game on Plasma I realized that +1 attack makes sieged Tanks one-shot-kill lings if they have +1 carapace (I think even +2?) I guess it's helpful when countering mass lings with Dark Swarm... but that's so much later in the game...
If this mech build becomes popular on iccup then hopefully we'll start seeing some people using spawn broodling. I was thinking something along the lines of what ggplay did in the game vs medusa. 3 hatch, get hydras but only just enough to stop the vulture harass, all the while powering drones. When the spire finishes you won't make any mutas but the threat of scourge is by itself enough to stop vulture drops, so you can move out with about 12 hydras to clear mines to get your 3rd up. Then once your 3rd is up and filled with drones, instead of making mutas which do very little against upgraded goliaths and valks, make queens and hydras! Spawn broodling has even longer range than upgraded goliaths, so sniping tanks shouldn't be too hard. With very few tanks, you won't need an overwhelming economy (which the vultures deny) to match his force.
On October 18 2008 17:00 AnOth3rDAy wrote: i wonder, is it +1 attack or +1armor for fantasy? i think im seeing +1 armor but its hard to tell due to bad quality
usually i thought +1 attack was the best option but maybe im wrong.. hmm
he was getting +1 armor. i dont really know the rationale, i think +1 attack is better.
My humble math insight
+1 attack changes almost nothing - it makes 10 not 12 gols one-shot-kill muta but not 1 less against lings, hydras, etc. +1 armor tho (combined with 1 base armor of mechs) makes muta splash damage almost obsolete and means another -25% damage dealt by lings (they do 3 ! which -40% in total) -> gols live and do damage longer
the +5 and extra splash damage on tanks outweighs that, id think. with the old mech build youd have a point, since mass muta was a solid counter, but with the inclusion of valks you're not gonna be fighting straight battles vs a bunch of muta very much. far more likely to be hitting masses of hydra, and id think the weapon upgrade on sieged tanks vs clumps of hydra would be far more powerful.
dunno though, oov and fantasy must have some reason for it.
On October 18 2008 16:15 MYM.Testie wrote: I also disagree with your analysis that the push was unstoppable in the first game. I have yet to look at the others.
Sorry i suppose i misstated. I was asserting moreso that mech revolves around a large well timed, hugely muscled army. Any push may fail, but all are intended to be focused on muscle rather than good control. M&M tends to be about controlling the map alot more efficiently and doing cute shit throughout.
On October 18 2008 17:00 AnOth3rDAy wrote: i wonder, is it +1 attack or +1armor for fantasy? i think im seeing +1 armor but its hard to tell due to bad quality
usually i thought +1 attack was the best option but maybe im wrong.. hmm
he was getting +1 armor. i dont really know the rationale, i think +1 attack is better.
My humble math insight
+1 attack changes almost nothing - it makes 10 not 12 gols one-shot-kill muta but not 1 less against lings, hydras, etc. +1 armor tho (combined with 1 base armor of mechs) makes muta splash damage almost obsolete and means another -25% damage dealt by lings (they do 3 ! which -40% in total) -> gols live and do damage longer
the +5 and extra splash damage on tanks outweighs that, id think. with the old mech build youd have a point, since mass muta was a solid counter, but with the inclusion of valks you're not gonna be fighting straight battles vs a bunch of muta very much. far more likely to be hitting masses of hydra, and id think the weapon upgrade on sieged tanks vs clumps of hydra would be far more powerful.
dunno though, oov and fantasy must have some reason for it.
while watching Midas vs YellOw[Arnc] game on Plasma I realized that +1 attack makes sieged Tanks one-shot-kill lings if they have +1 carapace (I think even +2?) I guess it's helpful when countering mass lings with Dark Swarm... but that's so much later in the game...
You need to find that out ! I'm not sure if this would really matter vs tightly clumped hydra... I think Reavers with +25 damage have wider splash damage so maybe +5 for Tanks is similar.
On October 18 2008 18:15 Wonders wrote: Great article!
If this mech build becomes popular on iccup then hopefully we'll start seeing some people using spawn broodling. I was thinking something along the lines of what ggplay did in the game vs medusa. 3 hatch, get hydras but only just enough to stop the vulture harass, all the while powering drones. When the spire finishes you won't make any mutas but the threat of scourge is by itself enough to stop vulture drops, so you can move out with about 12 hydras to clear mines to get your 3rd up. Then once your 3rd is up and filled with drones, instead of making mutas which do very little against upgraded goliaths and valks, make queens and hydras! Spawn broodling has even longer range than upgraded goliaths, so sniping tanks shouldn't be too hard. With very few tanks, you won't need an overwhelming economy (which the vultures deny) to match his force.
Yeah that would be nice ensnare and broodlings could be useful to slow down the terran push .They could become the reverse version of the vessel use in TvZ vs mech it is about time to see terrans get a taste of their own medicine . Broodlings could be really useful too if the terran is sieged and splashes down his own units .
To bad no one is trying to make a queen build and use queens effectively in TvZ , he may as well revolutionize the MU vs mech or even standart ZvT if he starts winning with it that is . Queens are used so little and just in ZvP vs carriers/sairs and i find ensnare to be such an useful ability.
If someone makes a guide about it they should add replays or else it will be futile convincing the mass of people the usefulnes of queen builds as support build .
I'm going to try experimanting the use of queens in ZvT and in ZvP , but don't expect a guide from me i'm just a D+ /C- zerg player on iccup at best . I will try to save some replays if they are useful and show how good queens could be in both the 2 MUs . I mean i've always thought that you could just go mass hidras and ensnare the speedy zeals and snipe the templars with broodlings if you get this build going 6 queens as support units to pick the damn templars after a muta opening of course for map control .Something like JD's build vs Best on destination , but mixed with a fully updated queens :D when the game goes on later . You send the queens first to see if they are eny units you can slow/pick off with Broodlings just like the use of vessels vs defilers / lurkers if you are going SK terran .
well i'm terran user myself and always loved to metal vs zerg on maps allowing it ( eQ : longinus which allows to double gas expnad with your wall).
In my opinion it is right thats metal is very strong vs any zerg army in the long run BUT metal start does NOT allow a single mistake in the first minutes : i mean pro knows to wall perfectly whatever the map and the starting point ( by perfectly i mean even zergling can't pass trough), pros knows how to kill 12 gling with a single "defensive " vulture, and all of this with perfect macroing. This is not the case of most of "good" players .
I have been myself owned so many times cause of a stupid mistake at start or vs all in builds ( 3 hacth gling speed whatever u mined of not , some guys are just stupid and believe in their luck ) or vs all fast pool builds ( and even if i was not owned i was so much harrassed that the power of my metal was too much delayed). I'm pretty sure there are a lot of easy counters for the zergs.
On October 18 2008 17:00 AnOth3rDAy wrote: i wonder, is it +1 attack or +1armor for fantasy? i think im seeing +1 armor but its hard to tell due to bad quality
usually i thought +1 attack was the best option but maybe im wrong.. hmm
he was getting +1 armor. i dont really know the rationale, i think +1 attack is better.
My humble math insight
+1 attack changes almost nothing - it makes 10 not 12 gols one-shot-kill muta but not 1 less against lings, hydras, etc. +1 armor tho (combined with 1 base armor of mechs) makes muta splash damage almost obsolete and means another -25% damage dealt by lings (they do 3 ! which -40% in total) -> gols live and do damage longer
the +5 and extra splash damage on tanks outweighs that, id think. with the old mech build youd have a point, since mass muta was a solid counter, but with the inclusion of valks you're not gonna be fighting straight battles vs a bunch of muta very much. far more likely to be hitting masses of hydra, and id think the weapon upgrade on sieged tanks vs clumps of hydra would be far more powerful.
dunno though, oov and fantasy must have some reason for it.
while watching Midas vs YellOw[Arnc] game on Plasma I realized that +1 attack makes sieged Tanks one-shot-kill lings if they have +1 carapace (I think even +2?) I guess it's helpful when countering mass lings with Dark Swarm... but that's so much later in the game...
You need to find that out ! I'm not sure if this would really matter vs tightly clumped hydra... I think Reavers with +25 damage have wider splash damage so maybe +5 for Tanks is similar.
Nope, splash areas are the same no matter the upgrades, just the damage increases. It just looks like the area increases, because for example unupgraded Reaver deals 100/50/25 damage in 20/40/60 radius, so it can one shot kill SCVs in 20 radius, while an upgraded one deals 125/62.5/31.25 in 20/40/60 radius, resulting in SCV kills in 40 radius(but the areas are the same size).
great article, just a question: with this build order terran is likely to be ahead of zerg after the beginning, but what about the late game? it doesn't change anything about expansions being hard to take, flanks, counters.. ecc ecc It just doesn't matter since you're going to win? In this sense, isn't it a pretty risky build order if you don't deal enough damage/delay on Z econ?
depends on zergling all-in timing, remember you're expanding outside the wall-in, and all you have is a vult... ok after the add-on is completed you'll start making other vults, still i think that dealing with streams of zerglings wouldn't be easy. Another counter is 2 hatch, 15 drones, 1 hydra den and attack, i think hydras should be ready before mine tech, but in this case z should know exactly what T is doing, probably seing a vult and a CC with the over behind T nat should be enough of a hint
Here is the thing that alot of people seem to be overlooking about the power of the various mech builds in general.
If zerg scouts early factory how many viable builds are there.
1 factory >2 port wraith 1 > 2 factory 1 factory > 3 rax fast Sci and now 1 factory > FE 1 factory fast Tank push
If the zerg scouts wall-in and nothing more 2 rax sunken bust 2 rax + factory sunken bust 3 rax bust. 2 rax mnm drop 2 rax acad > FE 1 rax > valk/mnm expo
And all the variations from the first list!
The reason these strategys are brillaint is because zerg can't go into the game thinking "Okay 3 hat muta, I'll time my speed to finish as spire is down to avoid sunkens for an earlier third" ect ect.
With the number of possible variations and trust me with valkerys and mech and boxer all in the next few months we will see alot of variation zerg has to rely on intution/ overlord sacraficing (the good ole days!) and build order luck.
My point I guess is that unlike terran I can't have a set playstyle because of the major differences in gameplay that day pointed out. There is no anti-mech build there is and will continue to be different styles of handling it from zerg to zerg game to game. Which I think is just fucking awesome.
(Idra your vulture/valk play is ...... abusive! God you would be a cruel protoss)
With the game on autumn wind, when fantasy's army moved out, he was rather low on valks (like 1 or 2). Just hypothesizing, but GGplay could've countered at the main of fantasy, and taken out all the SCVs, possibly even at the nat. In the meantime, his army grows stronger (because he's getting more muta), and fantasy will be unable to reinforce. Abandon his nat, since he saved the drones anyway, and get sunkens up ramp to his main to further delay the terran army (can also kill the rax and valk that provide sight upramp).
While this is all theorycrafting, technically ggplay will now be on 2 base, and fantasy will have close to 0 SCV. I just think that while fantasy's army was moving across the map, GGplay should've done more with his mutas. He ended up flying them around trying to pick off reinforcements futilely. His mutas were not helpful when the tanks were firing at his sunkens anyway, and they didn't particularly slow the rate of advancement of the terran army.
Awesome write up Day, I wanna see more mech happen in zerg with some slight differences. Even though there's been hundreds of thousands of games played on SC, still new variations occur is which SC is the best
On October 18 2008 19:34 UbRi wrote: great article, just a question: with this build order terran is likely to be ahead of zerg after the beginning, but what about the late game? it doesn't change anything about expansions being hard to take, flanks, counters.. ecc ecc It just doesn't matter since you're going to win? In this sense, isn't it a pretty risky build order if you don't deal enough damage/delay on Z econ?
its hard to deal with all that stuff because you're usually behind economically early with mech builds, since they can take an insanely early third and power hard and you cant really do anything about it.
with this build you're gonna come out of the early game with equivalent economies barring funny stuff. playing from that situation limits zergs options significantly. look at fantasy vs ggplay on medusa. even if ggplay hadnt made that bad attack on fantasy's natural he wouldnt have had enough units to both drop and defend the push. (woulda done better, but still woulda either died or made an ineffective drop). against normal 1 rax cc or 14 cc mech zerg will have enough economy to do the counters and drops and annoying stuff while still being able to defend a counter attack (or at least theyll have an easier time attempting it)
On October 18 2008 22:27 SilverSkyLark wrote: MVP just tried this against the Maestro but he got destroyed, it's so sad we didn't get to see the Maestro destroy the metal build.
? that wasnt the same build.. at all it was a 2 fac vult/tank rush
On October 18 2008 11:22 Kacas wrote: yeah good but now tell me how to counter this or the game will be imbalanced =/ poor z's =/
You can open 9 pool with the exctractor trick for an extra drone . Build 6 and 2 more after lings and lay a hat at your natural then 1 more hat if he is low on marines you kill him with pure lings. If he survives and you scout him going mech you open with hidras and take the map . If he is tank heavy you switch to mutas if he is goliath heavy stick with hidras and tech , add few sunks in your main and expos so that annoying harras doesn't trow you off and he takes a base .If he masses up try plagueing his units before you engage . Use your mobility strong macro and spells to kill him . Place random lurkers on the map to slow the push you can use stop lurkers or if he has a vessel just lurkers under swarm to slow him down .
If you don't scout him going mech and open mutas you can try my personal favourite build (PS i still haven't tryed it yet ) You have already opened Mutas just try to harras and delay his push and take a third and four base momentarily the far away from him as possible . You put down 2 queens nests and update spawn broodlings and energy update for queens .After that you start to pump queens and update the ensnare . You should update air armor and stick with mass air . When you hit hive you can get plague and finish him off with plague queens and mass air units guardian/mutas/ (devourers and scourge if he has mass valks ) . I think this build will need about 4 gasses to pull of later on , but what the heck do i know i still haven't tried it yet
"Fantasy didn’t just “go mech,” he devised a completely unique, wacko opening that levels the playing field for a meching terran on those seemingly unmechable maps."
Thanks for someone that agree with me. I saw GGplays games vs Fantasy and all the retards on the TL mIRC was like "omg GGplay sucks he can't even beat mech" etc etc....
Some people said:
"omg, ggplay noob should just have hydra all-in killed fantasy!!! IM PRO I KNOW MORE THAN PROGAMERS"
Answer: NO, he couldnt, he was afraid of mass mines or something like that screwing up his hydras
Amazing post, Day. Such a smart build, hopefully it will start a new trend.
Just a little thing: "3) When factory finishes, build the addon and begin a starport".
Actually Fantasy made a vulture first before getting the addon in both games 2 and 4, which allowed for early scouting/harrassing and forced GGPlay into making a sunken.
edit: Also, the nat CC comes right when the first vulture is out.
On October 18 2008 10:13 Day[9] wrote: Typical M&M TvZ vs Typical Mech TvZ Before we focus on Fantasy’s amazingness, let’s discuss a bit of the basic functionality of TvZ. With standard M&M, the terran has the opportunity to be aggressive and finesseful.
The build itself is a pearl because it seems to pretty pretty well-tuned to be a solid straight-up build. The only problem in my opinion is the early game. The only way to counter fast lings (especially 2 hatch speeds into muta) is to make rines with your vults (try microing 1 or 2 vults vs 16+ lings... will you have time to macro and do all your stuff? not if you don't have 300 apm) and that makes the timing to hold off 2 hatch mutas reallllly hard to meet. That's the worry I have about using this build honestly, and with seeing 2 hatch speeds into muta like 1/3 of tvz's that I play, I almost prefer the brittleness yet viability of m&m.
IMHO this build is just alternative against zerg, to suprise him or smth. M&M still is the best weapon. It looks very strong but only because GGplay doesn't have any idea how to deal with. As some1 said, mech is less mobile army so queens + defilers are the best counter for this. Anyway, it's interesting to play with Valkyries, 4/5 of them will kill stacked Overlords/Mutas in a eye-blink speed.
Yeah the lack mobility is also a factor. Think of what P does to T who is inevitably tank heavy: recall, counter, flank, make the terran run all around the map while securing expos safe from harass. Zerg doom drops could be quite powerful.
the valks are the new addition. Many T's have been throwing mech in from time to time for years, but muta was always too strong so T needed to catch z offguard. Now, 2 hatch muta still so strong tho -_-
On October 19 2008 02:04 zerGosu wrote: IMHO this build is just alternative against zerg, to suprise him or smth. M&M still is the best weapon. It looks very strong but only because GGplay doesn't have any idea how to deal with. As some1 said, mech is less mobile army so queens + defilers are the best counter for this. Anyway, it's interesting to play with Valkyries, 4/5 of them will kill stacked Overlords/Mutas in a eye-blink speed.
watch a game between flash and savior, flash starved savior to death
Great article Day, just one question for you: the impression I got from reading the article was that the "old" mech strategy was suitable only for a few very specific maps, whereas the "new" mech strategy (including valkyries) is resilient enough that you can apply it to a much wider range of maps. If that's the impression you meant to give, do you think we'll be seeing Mech become *much* more standard in TvZ in the next couple of months, and not just on specific maps like Plasma?
Edit: By much more standard, I mean could it become a non-surprise, straight-up solid strategy, sort of like 1rax FE already is, on most if not all maps.
On October 19 2008 04:38 Orome wrote: oh screw you, I have a word document open right now with the beginnings of an article about the recent mech games.
going to be fun to see how widespread mech will be in the future on all maps then..
did anybody write an extensive article on terran evolution in general? like switch from 1 base mnm to 1 rax FE. what is nada`s contribution to terran evolution compared to oov, xellos etc sorry about the offtopicness of my question
On October 19 2008 05:54 Ideas wrote: Wasn't Mind the 1st person to use valks on plasma?
If you were to nicpick everything, we can give the whole credit to Boxer. Savior vs Boxer super fight TWO YEARS AGO. Boxer used the IDENTICAL build order. Boxer used Valks and fast Goliath to proceed his tech. The only difference was he was aiming for fast vessel instead of more mech units. And this was two years ago. Doesn't stop there either. Boxer just recently, even before this series, used this build order in Intel Classic against some nameless zerg to defend against Mutas in the same fashion.
The commentator was saying before, after, and during the game how Oov and Fantasy prepared very hard for this series. But we all know who Oov is the best friends with, Boxer. I wouldn't be a bit surprised if this build order has been (heavily) influenced by Boxer.
Then again, I love Boxer too much. Maybe I've gone crazy, relating everything to Boxer. lol... Oh and yes, Fantasy deserve all the hype because he is the one, after all, who perfected it.
I agree with testie's comments in this thread. The viability of this strategy lies within its surprise element, not in it being a good general strategy vs any- and everything zerg.
In your outline of the build order I think you failed to see the key elements that turned the strategy into such a success.
1. Fantasy builds one vulture to deny scout before addon.
GGPlay obviously thinks a vulture runby is impending, causing him to spend money on a sunken. AND judging by his fast hydra den I'm quite confident he expected 2 starport wraiths out of fantasy, not an FE after building only one vulture. He did not expect the fast expansion to be that fast.
The last game he simply didn't know how to respond to fantasy's build. In my opinion he should've gone for the hydras instead of the mutalisks. Or at least transitioned into hydras instead of continuing on the doomed pathway of low econ pure muta. The muta's achieved their purpose when they caused:
1) a good amount of scv kills
2) fantasy to stay turtled in his base
Fantasy's first push is very low on tank numbers. Hydras are better suited as a counter, especially with valkyries being a huge issue.
2. He did not upgrade vulture speed.
Again. The only thing fantasy wanted out of the vultures was keeping his opponent in the dark, and temporarily securing map control. Preventing a mad expo style zerg, while at the same time preventing an all-in to his base, and while at the same time harassing while setting himself up for midgame. The timing of the gols/valkyries is crucial, he can't afford spending minerals/gas on useless upgrades that delays his timing. Fantasy basically has no units except for vultures the first 5 minutes of the game.
Another argument for this being a surprise element build is how poorly GGPlay faired and adapted. As soon as he sees a refinery in the future, I can promise you that his 3rd OL will be sent to the nearest 2nd natural, his 4th OL respectively towards the middle.
I can guarantee you his OL speed will be quicker. And his break attempt on the natural substantially quicker, as well as the drops in the main.
Hydra drops will act as an element of fear very much so as pure mutalisks would have.
On October 19 2008 05:54 Ideas wrote: Wasn't Mind the 1st person to use valks on plasma?
If you were to nicpick everything, we can give the whole credit to Boxer. Savior vs Boxer super fight TWO YEARS AGO. Boxer used the IDENTICAL build order. Boxer used Valks and fast Goliath to proceed his tech. The only difference was he was aiming for fast vessel instead of more mech units. And this was two years ago. Doesn't stop there either. Boxer just recently, even before this series, used this build order in Intel Classic against some nameless zerg to defend against Mutas in the same fashion.
The commentator was saying before, after, and during the game how Oov and Fantasy prepared very hard for this series. But we all know who Oov is the best friends with, Boxer. I wouldn't be a bit surprised if this build order has been (heavily) influenced by Boxer.
Then again, I love Boxer too much. Maybe I've gone crazy, relating everything to Boxer. lol... Oh and yes, Fantasy deserve all the hype because he is the one, after all, who perfected it.
The way I sort of saw it is that before Mind was the 1st T to get valks on plasma (all others just went pure wraiths) to counter mutas, which were the best counter to wraiths on plasma. I can't help but feel that midas saw that game and said to himself "HEY THAT WORKS GOOD VS MUTA" and make valks himself in his game vs thezerg. Then I assume every terren (including boxer) started to think about valks again.
But that's just all speculation, maybe in fact fantasy/oov come up with all this w/o any influence from Mind's game on Plasma, but I really think Mind influenced this build a lot.
Korean communities are hyping it as oov's Last Theorem (hint: Fermat) The funny story of it is like this. when oov appeared as a guest in OGN Live Battle (03, Aug), he said that he's trying to make new builds. he intended to show a revolutionary (yep he said it himself, though T1 players was negative to that strat) TvZ strat during live battle but the opponent 5pool'ed. lol therefore it's remained unrevealed. actually that game was suspected of min-hack and huge controversy arose on the community. check it out if you haven't watched,
I've tried this build out now the entire day vs zergs, i'm currently 8-0 (lol) with the build. Some of the games has been vs prettty good foreign zergs. I went 3-0 vs a guy who expected it the 2 last games, and it still worked.
I'd give it a week until the progamers have figured out how to beat it though ;o
EDIT:
It's pretty fucking genius how well this build has been thought out. Like Day says in his initial post, the dropship is key, and I mean really fucking KEY to the whole strategy. Not only does it disrupt the plan of massexpoing for the zerg, it also gathers shitloads of intel like a permenent scanner early on. You have so much information that you'd be a fool if you couldn't adjust accordingly to what the zerg is doing.
The first valkyrie kinda plays the same role as well, pretty much like how the first corsair in pvz gives the protoss player a general idea of what he's up against. Sometimes, you don't even need to produce that first valk, seeing how if your zerg opponent isn't going mutas, you could tech straight to tank/goli without having to worry. Also, the dropship/valk works excellent as a expo-scouter, seeing how its easy as hell to just patrol the map and find all the expos.
Korean communities are hyping it as oov's Last Theorem (hint: Fermat) The funny story of it is like this. when oov appeared as a guest in OGN Live Battle (03, Aug), he said that he's trying to make new builds. he intended to show a revolutionary (yep he said it himself, though T1 players was negative to that strat) TvZ strat during live battle but the opponent 5pool'ed. lol therefore it's remained unrevealed. actually that game was suspected of min-hack and huge controversy arose on the community. check it out if you haven't watched,
Korean communities are hyping it as oov's Last Theorem (hint: Fermat) The funny story of it is like this. when oov appeared as a guest in OGN Live Battle (03, Aug), he said that he's trying to make new builds. he intended to show a revolutionary (yep he said it himself, though T1 players was negative to that strat) TvZ strat during live battle but the opponent 5pool'ed. lol therefore it's remained unrevealed. actually that game was suspected of min-hack and huge controversy arose on the community. check it out if you haven't watched,
last but not the least, if you see sort of 200mana-vessel-timing push TvP, know it's oov build.
almost all of the builds that are popular right now were created by iloveoov. anything the people around here seem to like calling "flash build" (despite the fact that the "flash build" is a very specific counter to stork's style on katrina) is a build iloveoov created
Nice write up day. Only thing i noticed that is 100% counter to this mech style build is 2 hatch muta becasue he wont have scanner to see zerg's tech. He wont get vult in becasue of sunken and becasue he went dropship he will have mutas coming up by then.. and he is screwed becasue he has nothing to defend and 1 valk 1 gol at a time compared to rallyed muta/scourge = insta win for zerg >_>
On October 19 2008 05:54 Ideas wrote: Wasn't Mind the 1st person to use valks on plasma?
If you were to nicpick everything, we can give the whole credit to Boxer. Savior vs Boxer super fight TWO YEARS AGO. Boxer used the IDENTICAL build order. Boxer used Valks and fast Goliath to proceed his tech. The only difference was he was aiming for fast vessel instead of more mech units. And this was two years ago. Doesn't stop there either. Boxer just recently, even before this series, used this build order in Intel Classic against some nameless zerg to defend against Mutas in the same fashion.
The commentator was saying before, after, and during the game how Oov and Fantasy prepared very hard for this series. But we all know who Oov is the best friends with, Boxer. I wouldn't be a bit surprised if this build order has been (heavily) influenced by Boxer.
Then again, I love Boxer too much. Maybe I've gone crazy, relating everything to Boxer. lol... Oh and yes, Fantasy deserve all the hype because he is the one, after all, who perfected it.
To be honest, I highly doubt anyone can solely be credited with the creation of any build. Its natural that the teamates, coaches, and other random people they know, will give advice and add in their own flavour.
I'm not sure what the counter to this build is, but I'm guessing someone on the pro scene is going to show us a good one sometime soon against fantasy.
The more fun part will be seeing how Fantasy adapts to that counter. We know he is already theorizing of possible counters to his build and the counter to them.
Another very good point about this build is that valks deny zerg overlord scouting, keeping zerg in the dark for in the early-mid game while allowing you to scout the zerg with the valk.
so people here have come to agree that this build is invincible? listen to testie, although he is inactive he probably has the best game understanding outside of korea besides mondragon
Korean communities are hyping it as oov's Last Theorem (hint: Fermat) The funny story of it is like this. when oov appeared as a guest in OGN Live Battle (03, Aug), he said that he's trying to make new builds. he intended to show a revolutionary (yep he said it himself, though T1 players was negative to that strat) TvZ strat during live battle but the opponent 5pool'ed. lol therefore it's remained unrevealed. actually that game was suspected of min-hack and huge controversy arose on the community. check it out if you haven't watched,
last but not the least, if you see sort of 200mana-vessel-timing push TvP, know it's oov build.
almost all of the builds that are popular right now were created by iloveoov. anything the people around here seem to like calling "flash build" (despite the fact that the "flash build" is a very specific counter to stork's style on katrina) is a build iloveoov created
Yup, especially since IloveOov is Flash's biggest idol
There is a game from PL where Canata uses a similar build but July manages to counter it successfully, somehow. maybe we can study how he reacted to the build and work with it?
I would be skeptical to call this mechbuild a revolution. This one is entirely different from the Counter-all Bisu build which was a real revolution. It is clearly not connter-all because one important factor for the success of this BO is surprise to Z. Without it, it fails miserably to adapt to change in situation where Z knows exactly what you are supposed to do , even you can deny scouting from Z. I would call it the innovation resulting from the map pack used this year that has so many cliffs
After the game Canata vs July yesterday, I would say that July has been the destroyer of any renovation from the other P and T. He just adapted perfectly to the situation. The Bisu build fails miserably when scouting is denied and timing attack is carefully executed where as against this mech build, thanks to the narrowed entrance to the nat, the flanking of hydra would make Tank useless to attack to end game early when defiler is not out yet
On October 20 2008 13:44 joohyunee wrote: There is a game from PL where Canata uses a similar build but July manages to counter it successfully, somehow. maybe we can study how he reacted to the build and work with it?
I've tried this build some games now and it's pretty nice!
Every time when the zerg goes muta I win no problem. The times I lost is when they go like lurker / hydra drop or just standard lurker and attack me with me not having acad or ebay (using earlier acad now to counter den if I see it, so it's not a problem).
How to stop a drop I'm not sure, I suck at defending drops. Well, not defending them, but I suck at knowing when to expect a drop. Siege and units easily defend drops if you are prepared.
On October 20 2008 16:20 Zoler wrote: I've tried this build some games now and it's pretty nice!
Every time when the zerg goes muta I win no problem. The times I lost is when they go like lurker / hydra drop or just standard lurker and attack me with me not having acad or ebay (using earlier acad now to counter den if I see it, so it's not a problem).
How to stop a drop I'm not sure, I suck at defending drops. Well, not defending them, but I suck at knowing when to expect a drop. Siege and units easily defend drops if you are prepared.
If a Terran has good scouting + valks, a zerg is usually foolish to drop, right?
I wonder why he didnt make a wraith but went for the starport add-on straight away =/.
Imo this wraith can do the same thing as the sair in the bisu build so what zerg is doing and mb kill a stray overlord over your ramp so a hydra all in doesnt bust up your mine field there.
Also this would allow you to play 2 port against a 2 hatch muta cause you see exactly what he is up to and factory > starport timing is quicker than the 2 hatch muta.
Anyone a explination for not getting the wraith in?
On October 20 2008 18:38 4Servy wrote: I wonder why he didnt make a wraith but went for the starport add-on straight away =/.
Imo this wraith can do the same thing as the sair in the bisu build so what zerg is doing and mb kill a stray overlord over your ramp so a hydra all in doesnt bust up your mine field there.
Also this would allow you to play 2 port against a 2 hatch muta cause you see exactly what he is up to and factory > starport timing is quicker than the 2 hatch muta.
Anyone a explination for not getting the wraith in?
You want to get valk's quick because all zergs NORMALLY go 3 hatch muta, and wraiths are weak against mutalisk clumps. Your defending yourself with goliath's and valks.
good post and regarding the new strat i mostly agree its really solid and the only good counter i can think of is what ggplay did against flash in the last ro16 match when flash succeeded with a similar but bit diff (also more standard minus the way he harassed with proxy rax) mech on plasma. the key similarly that relates to this post is after flash took a big advantage early with harassment, he took his expo and mined heavily to stop a zerg counter before he could build mech up. as u say in the post, the early mines are what counters the early lurk ling rush but a brilliant allin play like the one ggplay pulled off against flash, pushing lurks in first to clean up mines which might have been a hurried mistake that actually worked out well, might also work against fantasy's build. i realize plasma is a special type of map thats also more open in the expo areas once the eggs are broken thru and saying an all in is a possible counter is also not totally valid but again i think that speaks to how solid fantasy's build is and thats all i can think of.
also interesting that commentators were saying how a lot of players are now practicing that build and it took fantasy 2 months of practice to get it down. might really be a revolution
edit: also reading thru the other posts reminded me of more games and i think in general a well timed and executed all in with several dif strats could work well but once again not much else cept all ins..
Korean communities are hyping it as oov's Last Theorem (hint: Fermat) The funny story of it is like this. when oov appeared as a guest in OGN Live Battle (03, Aug), he said that he's trying to make new builds. he intended to show a revolutionary (yep he said it himself, though T1 players was negative to that strat) TvZ strat during live battle but the opponent 5pool'ed. lol therefore it's remained unrevealed. actually that game was suspected of min-hack and huge controversy arose on the community. check it out if you haven't watched,
last but not the least, if you see sort of 200mana-vessel-timing push TvP, know it's oov build.
almost all of the builds that are popular right now were created by iloveoov. anything the people around here seem to like calling "flash build" (despite the fact that the "flash build" is a very specific counter to stork's style on katrina) is a build iloveoov created
Agreed I remember seeing flash vs ggplay on python where flash does this fast +1 weap build. I thought flash invented the build and than i see old vods of oov doing it before flash even became a pro o.O
On October 19 2008 10:06 meRz wrote: I've tried this build out now the entire day vs zergs, i'm currently 8-0 (lol) with the build. Some of the games has been vs prettty good foreign zergs. I went 3-0 vs a guy who expected it the 2 last games, and it still worked.
I'd give it a week until the progamers have figured out how to beat it though ;o
EDIT:
It's pretty fucking genius how well this build has been thought out. Like Day says in his initial post, the dropship is key, and I mean really fucking KEY to the whole strategy. Not only does it disrupt the plan of massexpoing for the zerg, it also gathers shitloads of intel like a permenent scanner early on. You have so much information that you'd be a fool if you couldn't adjust accordingly to what the zerg is doing.
The first valkyrie kinda plays the same role as well, pretty much like how the first corsair in pvz gives the protoss player a general idea of what he's up against. Sometimes, you don't even need to produce that first valk, seeing how if your zerg opponent isn't going mutas, you could tech straight to tank/goli without having to worry. Also, the dropship/valk works excellent as a expo-scouter, seeing how its easy as hell to just patrol the map and find all the expos.
I would be interested in some reps hehe.
On October 20 2008 13:44 joohyunee wrote: There is a game from PL where Canata uses a similar build but July manages to counter it successfully, somehow. maybe we can study how he reacted to the build and work with it?
Canata vs July was a totally different build compared to fantasy's. Day's post says that the dropship is the whole key to the build. In the Canata vs july game canata never made a dropship.
very nicely written, great analysis Day! and Oov is just amazing; I think he deserves alot more credit for this, still changing the game even as a coach. 200 mana vessel TvP timing push, who knew there were still such things to be explored!
Well.. The Vulture-Harass does not get much more effective because this Vultures raped as it was even without a dropship... Well.. With a Dropship he maybe could have gone for the killing blow (i don't see it but well...).
People say he waited to long to finish, but ive never seen a big opening to *finish* it?
After the nice Vult-Harass he basically had nothing to really attack (Vults don't do it against even small groups of Hyds), he needed Gholiats to defend against Mutas, the Muta harass may not *hurt* Canata but it did what it had to: Canata couldn't build many Tanks, therefore he was not having the units to finish the game right away.
After July recovered fully it was over... July's Positioning/Map/Unitcontroll were just way above Canatas (as should be expected regarding theyr achievments ).
Might i add the maps he did it on have small chokes so he can wall his expo to be save from any ground counter that breaks his mines . Not all maps are viable for this build imo. It's just my opinion though so feel free to prove me wrong ;D
I'm convinced that this is all just a fad, there's nothing "revolutionary" about Mech and Valkries. They just happen to work alright on certain maps if you catch your opponent off-guard and even then there are gaping holes in the timing of the build if properly scouted. + Show Spoiler +
Effort proved that a ling all-in can work well and I'm convinced a decently timed hydra push would have the same effect.
On October 26 2008 09:20 Klive5ive wrote: I'm convinced that this is all just a fad, there's nothing "revolutionary" about Mech and Valkries. They just happen to work alright on certain maps if you catch your opponent off-guard and even then there are gaping holes in the timing of the build if properly scouted. + Show Spoiler +
Effort proved that a ling all-in can work well and I'm convinced a decently timed hydra push would have the same effect.
every major strategical shift is kind of "just a fad"
you don't see many P's going dt/sair anymore but you don't see anyone calling that a fad
On October 26 2008 09:20 Klive5ive wrote: I'm convinced that this is all just a fad, there's nothing "revolutionary" about Mech and Valkries. They just happen to work alright on certain maps if you catch your opponent off-guard and even then there are gaping holes in the timing of the build if properly scouted. + Show Spoiler +
Effort proved that a ling all-in can work well and I'm convinced a decently timed hydra push would have the same effect.
every major strategical shift is kind of "just a fad"
you don't see many P's going dt/sair anymore but you don't see anyone calling that a fad
I don't think it's a "major strategical shift" though. I'm ready to be proved wrong but I don't see this being used much in the future. SK Terran is just such a beautiful way to play against Zerg.... and it's effective too. Is the loss of momentum in the early game worth it when SK Terran can apply pressure throughout all phases of the game?
The thing about mine contain is just that: It's weak. It can kill 5 lings per mine or just 1 fer several mines.
Up till now only fantasy has used this exact build where he FEs at the same time his first vult leaves the base (every other mech build since has a more delayed nat for extra safety). From that time till his mines finish, vult micro is all he has and slow vults are no match for mass speed lings.
The massive gaping hole in this "nu-metal" build is still the same as every metal build, the pathetic early game. Get mines first you can't stop speed lings, get speed first you can't stop hydra, either way the FE's gonna fall. Dropship is also too slow to come now that zergs have adjusted their response. Back when GGplay had no practice against it, he still made game 4 out to be a nail biter. It's not gonna work anymore on standard open maps. But hey, fantasy's already won the semi, so mission accomplished. That build totally carried him.
This really isent that special, there is a reason why pros dont use these mechbuilds zvt this isent something thats just been invented. The only reason Fantasy won like he did is beacourse GGplay dident expect it, and therefor forgot the right counters. Now that its been used again pros will remeber how to counter it.
Its just a onetime thing you can do, beacourse Z is so used to bio builds.
On October 27 2008 17:58 Kong John wrote: This really isent that special, there is a reason why pros dont use these mechbuilds zvt this isent something thats just been invented. The only reason Fantasy won like he did is beacourse GGplay dident expect it, and therefor forgot the right counters. Now that its been used again pros will remeber how to counter it.
Its just a onetime thing you can do, beacourse Z is so used to bio builds.
I agree mech builds gets me the most only by surprise when terrans are going wraiths for example and i go mutas and he starts harrassing . It is just a 1 time thing if i expect them i go hidras and just harras don't overextend if he has a good wall in and 2 or more tanks and just continue to tech to mutas and take expands . But If he opens vultures i think i'm gonna rape him because he will update first mines as you stated and mines don't do shit when i get 8+ hidras with range . I just send an overlord always at their natural .Vulture drops can always be protected 2 or 1 sunk in your main 1 at natural and you have your hidras before he can drop .
i think this build will only work if you are teching to mutas first as in standard TvZ otherwise it is not a very good build because you are overextending . I mean the terran opens vultures with mines and starport for dropship . Then you build a fast CC and update siege for tanks and you even have to make valks or just stick with normal goliath/tanks combo .I too don't think that it is a special build but just a variant of a mech build . You can also make wraiths in to mech after. It is just the choise of harras you would like to put on early game to fool your opponent and take an expansion and start going goliaths/tanks . Mines may be good for defending ling all -ins but i don't see it working vs Hidra openings just like wraiths .
Edit:
-Mines prevent scouting lings and discourage early hydra pushes -The fast dropship not only allows for a quick scout, but also quick pressure that discourages zerg’s 3rd/4th expansion. -Gets a relatively fast expansion that’s quite safe
Ok they can kill scouting lings . 4 vultures can place a grand total of 12 mines . I don't know how a 1 fact vulture pump with mines discourages early 3 hat hydra pushes that is beyond me ? I don't know how quick this pressure is going to be and if i open hidras i don't know if it even do eny damage. How will it discourage me to not expand i mean a mere 4 vultures and a dropship ? I can take 2 expansions for all i care 4 vultures can't kill an expo before my hidras about 8 + and more comeing to it .Even if he drops your main you can still defend it with 1 sunk or hidras if you don't know its comeing .Overlords can scout both the drops and the mines .
Mech build can backfire easly Effort vs Fantasy and Flash vs GGplay are e prof for that . Mines couldn't stop the lings from GGplay . And effort just out produses him 3 hat lings vs 1 fact vults with mines How can you expand in that situation ? The only way is if the zergs put sunkens up in fear at his natural and plays standard to mutas .
I think Testie explained it the best that mech is the strongest if it gets you by surprise otherwise it has counters to it like eny other mech build .
I tried this build today at D+ level on Python, and it was the biggest rape I've seen in my life.
I started with gas steal/ denying expansion with SD to win a bit of time on his tech. The guy reacted by 3 hatch hydra. I killed a looot of drones to the guy with a vulture drop he didn't expect at all. He spend a long time clearing my mines in his base. By the time the guy got kind of an army, I was pumping tank/goliaths from 6 factories, and before he even tried to expand, he was dead.
i'm not sure if it was mentioned somewhere but i tried my best to look around... are you supposed to take off 2 scv's from gas when you get the 100 gas for factory???
no because you need the gas for the starport and dropship. Sortof late to using the fantasy build but i really got to say the build's really well thought out, expected from skt1 terrans .
Why did you bump a two year old thread...........................?? Oh well, at least you didn'nt just bump and say "+1" or "lol"
TLFEs are always worth bumping^^
That's true, but why bump it on the sidebar when you can just go to the final edits main thing itself. Just read each and every one.
You'd be surprised at the number of people who don't know about these. Bumping one in essences piques curiosity (hi JWD) which bumps them all.
True, this is the first time I'm reading this.
I started following proscene last summer (after Jaedong's 3-2 comeback vs fantasy in the OSL finals) and it amazes me how, after 10 years, BW strats still come and go. Fantasy's opening, which looked unbeatable and ingenious just a year ago, is now obsolete. If Sc2 doesn't hinder brood war (), I'm pretty sure Fantasy's recent bio --> mech switch will be figured out as well.
I played T in bw and the fantasy build was my favorite build to use. It's a great counter to muta's and all and all a solid play. I really loved using it.
It was actually good timing for a bump -- though yes, a pretty lame bump.
In the recent OSL semifinals of Calm vs. Fantasy, the revolutionist showed that he is still at it (probably along with oov?), creating beautiful builds that address the problematic-for-terran maps of this OSL season, that use the whole terran arsenal, and showcase his creativity. I won't spoil any more, but any fans of BW must watch this incredible Bo5.
NukeTheStars is one of the only english casters still doing BW, you can catch the whole series on his youtube channel.
Great builds, but damn still one of the dumbest progamers out there on the scene. The guy constantly makes some of the most retarded decisions ever, such as letting lurkers just walk into his base. Seriously, he sees lurkers beginning to morph, but still lets them walk right in without any detection in base. Just brilliant play by Fantasy all around.
He's got some good builds though. Innovative, and pretty abusive too. But his game sense at times is absolutely appalling, and his marine micro is just god awful.
On January 16 2011 23:13 Roffles wrote: Great builds, but damn still one of the dumbest progamers out there on the scene. The guy constantly makes some of the most retarded decisions ever, such as letting lurkers just walk into his base. Seriously, he sees lurkers beginning to morph, but still lets them walk right in without any detection in base. Just brilliant play by Fantasy all around.
He's got some good builds though. Innovative, and pretty abusive too. But his game sense at times is absolutely appalling, and his marine micro is just god awful.
Eehan barracks liftoff, I was seroiusly rofl'ing when he saw the eggs then lifted off his rax letting the lurkers in his base.
EPT![[image loading]](http://www.teamliquid.net/staff/Hot_Bid/TLFE/TerranRevolutionbyDay9.jpg)
) -> gols live and do damage longer
