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Terran Revolutionist - Page 3

Forum Index > Final Edits
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cas
Profile Joined January 2008
Mexico52 Posts
October 18 2008 05:12 GMT
#41
draw, ensnare, allin with skipped lordspeed and diagonally deployed advance slowlords to clear the minefield? also skip lingspeed and work out if a main sunk is better than not. also tune muta/scourge counts and also see if +1 ling carapace can be squeezed in. probably also make a clumsy expansion attempt, preferably running the drone over the mine a few times and then walking a slowlord into view.
Juicyfruit
Profile Joined May 2008
Canada5484 Posts
October 18 2008 05:13 GMT
#42
Queens to broodling the tanks, since he wouldn't have a whole lot, and then run him over with zerglings? Maybe?
alphafuzard
Profile Blog Joined June 2007
United States1610 Posts
October 18 2008 05:23 GMT
#43
I FUCKING LOVE THIS GUY
fantasy is such a badass player
i cant say it enough
i gotsta try me some of this build
more weight
CrimsonLotus
Profile Blog Joined June 2008
Colombia1123 Posts
October 18 2008 05:27 GMT
#44
I would be shiting my pants right now if i played Zerg.

Great read.
444 444 444 444
ScarFace
Profile Blog Joined March 2008
United States1175 Posts
October 18 2008 05:29 GMT
#45
as if zvt wasn't hard enough
Can you dig it?
KOFgokuon
Profile Blog Joined August 2004
United States14832 Posts
October 18 2008 05:34 GMT
#46
love reading high level players do analysis like this
tonight
Profile Blog Joined November 2006
United States11130 Posts
October 18 2008 05:39 GMT
#47
It all comes down to Z knowing it's coming and if T can hold off any sort of early harass.
if I come without a thing, then I come with all I need @tonightsend
EvoChamber
Profile Blog Joined February 2008
France2505 Posts
October 18 2008 05:43 GMT
#48
On October 18 2008 14:34 KOFgokuon wrote:
love reading high level players do analysis like this

That's not awful writing, DAMMIT. It's perfectly sensical english construction.
semioldguy
Profile Blog Joined January 2007
United States7487 Posts
October 18 2008 05:50 GMT
#49
Sean, that was an amazing writeup and analysis!

I'd recommend moving this to featured, but I'm afraid no one would see it once it got moved there. Featured is where many good threads seem to go to die
Moderator
avilo
Profile Blog Joined November 2007
United States4100 Posts
October 18 2008 05:59 GMT
#50
really enjoyed reading, insight into this build is really great
Sup
SK.Testie
Profile Blog Joined January 2007
Canada11084 Posts
Last Edited: 2008-10-18 07:16:37
October 18 2008 07:15 GMT
#51
I also disagree with your analysis that the push was unstoppable in the first game. I have yet to look at the others.

Jaedong made critical errors that game and played a sloppy over-confident style against mech. (He did fine up until the point he wasted all his units). Despite starting with a build not necessarily designed to fight mech but being versatile enough to handle it, he did well and had a chance to win (and likely would have if he had not committed suicide). Atleast at the point he lost. He had multiple avenues to take to delay that game, waiting for his superior economy to really give him an edge, but he chose the wrong one and was overconfident about guardians over cliffs against goliaths. Hence the wasted hydras that shouldn't have engaged the tanks from that position, as they did not serve their purpose and melted. Rather than calling the push unstoppable in that game, pay closer attention to his units, what they could have done, what other avenues he could have explored to buy himself some more time for his economy to kick in and so on.
Social Justice is a fools errand. May all the adherents at its church be thwarted. Of all the religions I have come across, it is by far the most detestable.
IdrA
Profile Blog Joined July 2004
United States11541 Posts
October 18 2008 07:39 GMT
#52
On October 18 2008 13:20 MYM.Testie wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 18 2008 11:55 IdrA wrote:
On October 18 2008 11:36 MYM.Testie wrote:
You counter it by screwing over the fact that it isn't very mobile. It is one of the reasons people used to sacrifice an overlord to scout a terrans base. If you know it's coming, and you're used to playing against mech and have a keen sense of game control, you will not be bothered by it.

If it does not hurt you early and you play a heavy drone style, you will over-run it. Likewise, if there is no early expansion you can 2 hatch muta with well placed sunkens and muta-drone with well-placed overlords to completely obliterate it. Often being able to face the army and simply crush it repeatedly (not pushing into his base) while starving him.

The valkyries are not normally an issue due to the fact they take a long time to build and scourge are so very useful against them early. After a certain amount of mutas you can often cut all muta production together for a while and just hard drone+hard expand. So he cannot come out of his base. With this knowledge you must make sure drones going to expansions all over the map are not sniped. AKA overlord speed and no wasteful movements with your mutas. So essentially, in this slow to build strategy (the terrans), you can literally take the map with well placed overlords - muta - scourge - drone while eventually switching to mass hydras while the terran has likely not built enough tanks after scanning your mass air-drone build. You should have quite an economic advantage once he is able to really mobilize and finally come out. But by then, it should always be too late and you will crush the mech force repeatedly, or in the event you can't, have bought enough time to keep him running back and forth and starving him out through a mass econ style of guerrila warfare. i.e. muta+hydradrops around his armies.

While this can be said for all strategies, and there are some truly solid mech strategies out there, mech has always worked best as a surprise. Again, like most strategies, with small timing tweaks you can make mech seem nearly invincible. It is something you every Terran should have in their arsenal, and they need to know when and why to use it. From maps - to positions - even opponent can be a factor.

Defilers are also very good against it, very laaaaate game. Why late game? Most builds against mech don't have a proper transition period to defilers. As in, it leaves a weakness to be exploited to tech up to those units which take quite a while before they can be put into use effectively with plague. I recall beating a good mech terran with equal money in the past with muta-hydra turned into queen-broodling-hydra as well. So there are other options.

2 hat muta fails hard vs it if you know its coming, z cant overpower turrets before 2+ valks are up, and once you have decent valk count their mutas are useless and they die to the first mech push.

and you arent gonna be able to deal with it just with muta/scourge, cuz t isnt gonna be using the valks on their own unless you're underdefended vs them anyway. theyre used in combination with the gol/tank army or with turrets to stop counters, and 4 valks + goliath or turret support isnt gonna be beat by any practical number of mutas.

its pretty easy to deal with defilers late game mech unless z has an overwhelming economy in which case it doesnt really matter what units theyre using. just cut goliath count for vultures and lay mines..everywhere while mixing in vessels with the extra gas.

obviously not invincible, but mech is way better as a standard strategy than most people give it credit for.
best way to deal with it is just taking the map and overwhelm t, but with vultures preventing expos until ovie speed/mutas your economy is delayed quite a bit, which usually gives t a window to secure a massive econ of their own or to timing push.

fantasy's vulture drop is really a nice touch though. ggplay defended it completely on medusa and was still way behind in econ just cuz to get enough hydras to cover everything he had to cut alot of drones.


As usual, it is all dependent on maps-scouting etc. i.e. if you denied scouting with drones on a ramp etc so that they are essentially in the dark and will do their build not knowing what is coming the strategy I outlaid will usually result in an overwhelming defeat for Terran while being versatile enough to switch if needed with +1-+2 carapace mutas - overlords - scourge securing map control.

spending 2 of your 11 drones to keep an scv out sets you back a decent bit and tells terran that you're doing something gay anyway, they just dont know what. but given how common 2 hat muta has become its a fair guess, and you have mines out in time to stop any kind of hydra rush.
if you opt for the power heavy option the vult drop destroys you, you need more than a couple hydras to stop 4 vults with mines. the chupung and medusa games show, even if the vult drop doesnt really do much at all you spend so much defending it that terran is still gonna be ahead in econ anyway with the fast expo.

there really is no sure fire counter to it. the hidden 2 hat muta is the closest bet, but 2 hat muta vs a fe mech build is very allin and theres a good chance terran will guess what you're doing anyway, since nothing else youd want to hide would really work.
http://www.splitreason.com/product/1152 release the gracken tshirt now available
Geo.Rion
Profile Blog Joined October 2008
7369 Posts
October 18 2008 07:54 GMT
#53
Very high level article.

Also remember, people, that GGplay is quite good against mech, he destroyed Flash twice (ok he needed Flash to be overconfident) but lost 3 times to Fantasy.
"Protoss is a joke" Liquid`Jinro Okt.1. 2011
SK.Testie
Profile Blog Joined January 2007
Canada11084 Posts
October 18 2008 07:57 GMT
#54
11 drones?
2 ? You can spend one at a time as each one loses health. Again it is dependent on the map. How many locations and so on. I just remember many similar builds used on Lost Temple. 2 hatch muta being very common there so that the terran doesn't take your cliff and so on. X'ds~Kiwi was notorious for vult drop-expo-mech.
Social Justice is a fools errand. May all the adherents at its church be thwarted. Of all the religions I have come across, it is by far the most detestable.
StylishVODs
Profile Joined December 2005
Sweden5331 Posts
Last Edited: 2008-10-18 08:09:35
October 18 2008 08:00 GMT
#55
i wonder, is it +1 attack or +1armor for fantasy? i think im seeing +1 armor but its hard to tell due to bad quality

usually i thought +1 attack was the best option but maybe im wrong.. hmm
According to Reach, he is the fastest learner he has ever seen. He start bw only like 2/3 years ago. Infact, his bw history knowledge is so limited, he didn't even know what the map Guillotine was.
IdrA
Profile Blog Joined July 2004
United States11541 Posts
October 18 2008 08:13 GMT
#56
On October 18 2008 16:57 MYM.Testie wrote:
11 drones?
2 ? You can spend one at a time as each one loses health. Again it is dependent on the map. How many locations and so on. I just remember many similar builds used on Lost Temple. 2 hatch muta being very common there so that the terran doesn't take your cliff and so on. X'ds~Kiwi was notorious for vult drop-expo-mech.

you're gonna have to have drones on your ramp around the time you start your pool unless you want to pray they dont scout you first and you're gonna have 2 drones off the mineral line whether you leave 2 on the ramp or you're switching them in and out given travel time between min line and ramp.

it really doesnt depend on the map or positions, even if its 4 spot map you're flipping a coin if you dont put drones there early. obviously you'll get away with it some of the time, but my point was the entire thing is a gamble(a pretty risky one at that), not a solid counter to the build.

and vult drop-expo-mech is quite different from vult drop-expo-valk-mech. 2 hat muta works vs one, not the other.
http://www.splitreason.com/product/1152 release the gracken tshirt now available
IdrA
Profile Blog Joined July 2004
United States11541 Posts
October 18 2008 08:14 GMT
#57
On October 18 2008 17:00 AnOth3rDAy wrote:
i wonder, is it +1 attack or +1armor for fantasy? i think im seeing +1 armor but its hard to tell due to bad quality

usually i thought +1 attack was the best option but maybe im wrong.. hmm

he was getting +1 armor. i dont really know the rationale, i think +1 attack is better.
http://www.splitreason.com/product/1152 release the gracken tshirt now available
AttackZerg
Profile Blog Joined January 2003
United States7450 Posts
October 18 2008 08:44 GMT
#58
On October 18 2008 17:14 IdrA wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 18 2008 17:00 AnOth3rDAy wrote:
i wonder, is it +1 attack or +1armor for fantasy? i think im seeing +1 armor but its hard to tell due to bad quality

usually i thought +1 attack was the best option but maybe im wrong.. hmm

he was getting +1 armor. i dont really know the rationale, i think +1 attack is better.



Great write up day!

Idra can we expect to see some clever adaptations of mech play in your TvZ in the future?
SK.Testie
Profile Blog Joined January 2007
Canada11084 Posts
Last Edited: 2008-10-18 08:53:32
October 18 2008 08:45 GMT
#59
On October 18 2008 17:13 IdrA wrote:
and vult drop-expo-mech is quite different from vult drop-expo-valk-mech. 2 hat muta works vs one, not the other.


Hrm, I remember playing vs similar strategies extensively on lost temple and through various minor adjustments you can always defeat a mech strat if you know it's coming like, 100%. But I'll take your word for it on this particular set build order as players timings have been hammered far more since then to adjust for adjustments etc.
Social Justice is a fools errand. May all the adherents at its church be thwarted. Of all the religions I have come across, it is by far the most detestable.
IdrA
Profile Blog Joined July 2004
United States11541 Posts
Last Edited: 2008-10-18 08:50:48
October 18 2008 08:49 GMT
#60
On October 18 2008 17:44 AttackZerg wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 18 2008 17:14 IdrA wrote:
On October 18 2008 17:00 AnOth3rDAy wrote:
i wonder, is it +1 attack or +1armor for fantasy? i think im seeing +1 armor but its hard to tell due to bad quality

usually i thought +1 attack was the best option but maybe im wrong.. hmm

he was getting +1 armor. i dont really know the rationale, i think +1 attack is better.



Great write up day!

Idra can we expect to see some clever adaptations of mech play in your TvZ in the future?

future ?
On October 10 2008 10:10 VIB wrote:
Idra vs Squall he uses Valk + Vult build twice. Different from anything being said here but very entertaining. Worth to watch, get the rep packs at:
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=79905


skt terrans look to me for strategy advice
http://www.splitreason.com/product/1152 release the gracken tshirt now available
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