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United States1654 Posts
On June 11 2008 20:53 Plexa wrote:
As i said in the article, the back and forth cheesing in the GSI (especially game 3) shows that Jaedong couldn't find a solution for the mech build and was frustrated. The frustration lead to mistakes and cheese - which never work well together. Jaedong could have won if he had played normally - like he does against any other player - but Flash has him beat on the mind game. Thats why Flash will always beat Jaedong from now on.
Baekmagoji is so heavily imbalanced that it was pretty much do or die for Jaedong no matter what he did. If he couldn't defeat Flash early on, he would have been smashed anyway, so he chose to cheese because of it. Baekmagoji is 11-3 in favor of Terran, with the only Terran losses being UpMagic and Hery, neither of which have a strong TvZ.
Also, some stats for the map pool that Jaedong will face Hwasin on:
Tiamat: 3-0 TvZ
Colosseum: 5-1 TvZ
Athena: 2-1 TvZ
Othello: 11-8 TvZ
Based on the map statistics, Hwasin is pretty much already guaranteed a 2-0 lead before the games even start (3-2 if they get to game 5). Similar to Baekmagoji, if Jaedong can't find a way to win with standard play, he'll resort to cheese.
Then why did Savior dominate on Terran favored maps in his OSL run without cheese you ask? Isn't Jaedong supposed to be the "Heir Apparent", to carry on the Zerg race? I don't think it was all about mindset (though it certainly played a major role), but Savior dominated because he was new, he brought something new to the stagnating Zerg race. Terrans had to adapt, couldn't adapt, and were unable to find a solution to his management, play, and game sense. But Jaedong doesn't have this luxury. He doesn't have anything new or revolutionary to bring to the Zerg table. He doesn't have anything new or revolutionary that will throw Terrans off their game- Terrans have seen the metagame ZvT that Savior created hundreds, if not thousands of times. All Jaedong has is his micro and mechanics, and a rusty worn copy of Savior's ZvT manual.
Anyway, nice write-up Plexa! I just wanted to chime in my thoughts on maps and the stagnation of the Zerg. 
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I still think that the supposed map imbalance that we see in the statistic's of today's maps is more about the zergs just being outplayed by the terrans. It's not cause of the maps here folks.
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Aotearoa39261 Posts
On June 13 2008 04:22 raga4ka wrote:Show nested quote +On June 13 2008 04:08 Plexa wrote:It's 7am, so forgive me if i write something stupid :X On June 13 2008 03:48 raga4ka wrote:
Plexa JD didn't cheese on Katrina and Baekmagoji because he was scared of the mech build maybe if it was in MSL or OSL i could assume that but GSI that is just wrong . He cheesed because Flash cheesed him the first game and JD is the kind of player that likes to give a taste of their own medicine . Okay, what evidence do you have to support that? I mean you could say that about Nada (like in his pre-interview before his match with TT - 'I'll show him how to cheese') but i've seen nothing to indicate that about Jaedong. I'd have to see some interviews or games to make me change my mind about it. He couldn't care less for GSI it is because he is dependent on every other league there is there and it counts not just for money and fame but for the team too Rather true - but remember that he just out to Flash in OSL - reducing one avenue of revenue. Being the one of the only Lecaf players in the GSI surely he would want to do well to create a good name for the team. After all sponsors love exposure - it's not like he's going to come out and play sub-par shitty games just because the tournament doesn't matter. Just because the tournament was 'unofficial' doesn't make it any less of a big tournament. There was enough $$ there to keep gamers interested and imo he wanted to win. How hard he wanted to win may be questioned however. ... so i think that the lost in GSI had nothing to do with his confidence. Let's assume that LJD is the kind of player who does like to give a player a taste of his own medicine. Obviously, coming off a quarter final loss in the OSL - Jaedong would want to revenge that right? Give Flash a taste of his own medicine? The only difference between the GSI series and the MSL series is the mindset of each player. Their skills had not deteriorated at all, but Flash held the mental high ground and ultimately that spurred him onto victory. Whether or not Jaedong was confident or not doesn't really matter, the point is the Flash has a stronger mental state than Jaedong - which is a comparative term. Thus it doesn't mean that Jaedong was metnally weak, just that Flash was stronger. The influence that JD left on every other player and Flash as the Zerg to beat is huge because there were tons of players cheesing him and even now, I dno, i can only name Flash and Backho who authentically cheesed him, Flash and Casy used creative non-standard builds. But yes, test of a true champion is his cheese resistivity. ..but JD is not the type of player who cheeses when he feels he will lose to a mech build if not , unlike Flash who was known as the cheese it self .Asummeing that are you trying to tell me that JD 9 pooled Boxer , because he was not sure he could win otherways . I disagree there. Jaedong used a build which increased his winning chances the most. Knowing that Boxer would almost invariable FE on Katrina, 9 pool is a pretty sound choice to get an easy win. He knows he can beat him in a straight up game, but after evaluating all the different strategies he came to the conclusion that 9pool speed was the strongest option. And hey, it was. "Mind Games" is a brilliant article on the notion of cheesing, and i strongly recommend it if you haven't read it already. I'm pretty sure he was doing it even for fun with both boxer and Flash for boxer it was intentional but againts Flash it was due him cheeseing on BS. Flash cheesed him because he can't beat him on BS , but JD did it not because he was scared of the mech build not in this tournament atleast but maybe it was for fun or just to give Flash a taste of his own medicine i'm almost 100 % sure about that . Like i said before, Jaedong chose his builds so that he would maximize his chances to win against Flash - just as Flash did for the same series. Knowing that Flash would play FE and Mech Jaedong could safely assume that some kind of cheese rush would work - and hey! it did. I dont know if he was scared of the mech build, although he must have realized he had a much better chance of winning by exploiting the standard play of Flash on the map. Against with Baek, a similar thought process must have gone through his mind. Flash however, pulled through with some stunning defensive work. The moment you have Jaedong doubting his skill and thinking he's got a better chance using a risky all in build then you know his mental state has been undermined. If Flash had lost to Jaedong in the OSL i assure you than Jaedong would have crushed him here as well. It all comes down to mind games.. Compareing him to savior on the cheese topic ain't right . I think its a valid comparison on the grounds presented in "Mind Games" Aham first JD played Flash 2/3 and 3/3 game in OSL after GSI so your logic fails and he didn't cheese him there . Oh? Really?
http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/games/?tabulator_search=jaedong flash&auto_redirect=1
OSL was played on the 22nd GSI on the 25th - my logic stands Second why should he cheese flash because he didn't find a solution to one game in MSL and even not knowing that it is comeing based only on 1 game in MSL . No one but Flash himself knew if he was going mech in GSI it was an invitational and just by that i'm 100 % sure that JD cheesed with not a single thought of mech build or Flash , but more about the thought that he was being cheesed himself on Bluestorm. As I've already established through a simple TLPD search, there was three days between OSL and GSI - obviously not enough time for him to come up with a solution. I didn't realize how close the two series were  but now i do, and it actually strengthens my argument. And when he cheesed Boxer he actually lowered his chances of beating him because a cheese can always be defend if scouted. He actually got lucky that was not scouted and was definitely not done to max out his chanses to win JD could have killed Boxer back then with just muta harras. Yes, but there was a 99% probability that Boxer would 14CC, and why not capitalize on that like a smart player? And thats what Jaedong did.Look how he demolishes cheese in msl done by Lucifer now and Flash's cheese in the final game last MSL you just can't compare MSL/OSL to GSI . Well i suppose after being cheesed, and losing so much because of it, he had to figure out how to stop it eventually?! But in all seriousness the Troy cheese was brilliant - if you haven't watched it recently go rewatch it, it was pure genius. Far superior to that of the MSL cheese imo. But this point is rather superfluous to the whole argument. Bisu lost shit load of games in GSI and was not playing well but in OSL he was at 100% . Nope i disagree with you there. Bisu only just limped through to the Ro8 and then Much played like a chump and was eliminated in two <10 min games. Hardly evidence to suggest Bisu was playing at his peak. The games against Flash were nice though, i'll give you that - but he still lost 1-3 which is a sad scoreline. Or are you telling me that JD cheesed flash just because flash was up 1 game in OSL NOT ELIMINATED FROM THERE and that he lost 1 game to him in MSL ?????????????? Again, as established by a TLPD search this is factually wrong- the OSL series had been played in its entiretyYou can't say that a lost to Flash killed his confidance he beat him in MSL , if it happens like that then he would be lone gone after his Bo5 with the rock . Jaedong was still on the rise then, with the mindset of a challenger - losing a Bo5 to Rock isn't that bad anyway, you can still tear through some chumps in ODT... thats hardly a mental state crushing incident. Although a weaker player would simply fall by the way side, but obviously Jaedong is a champion and small things like that don't phase him.And what happen after that series he was not ever beaten in a BO5 series not by Toss not by Terran not by zerg and lost a single Bo3 in OSL and not so important Bo3 in GSI .Thats why i think that when JD losses he rapes you even harder and can't be compared to saviors scenario with FBH . Again thats based on the premise that the OSL series hadn't been fully played out - which is wrong. And yes, we can't compare Jaedong to Savior/FBH yet - just wait until Jaedong loses the last set; then we'll talk.
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Interesting article... still don't fully grasp what all the mysterious "mental state" encompasses but I fault myself for that. It seems like in any competitive venture the distinguishing mark of a champion is a combination of flawless fundamentals and the ability to learn and improve when they lose, rather than get discouraged. The latter is a mysterious quality, can it be learned and practiced or are some people just born with that mindset? I'm a person that takes losses hard so I doubt I could ever rise to the very peak of any sort of competition, because the road there is paved with lots of loss for sure. I guess time will tell if Flash can weather his losses and continue the reign of dominance. All I know is it's pretty fun watching him now... seems to have so few exploitable weaknesses.
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Aotearoa39261 Posts
On June 13 2008 16:18 yoshtodd wrote:
Interesting article... still don't fully grasp what all the mysterious "mental state" encompasses but I fault myself for that. It seems like in any competitive venture the distinguishing mark of a champion is a combination of flawless fundamentals and the ability to learn and improve when they lose, rather than get discouraged. The latter is a mysterious quality, can it be learned and practiced or are some people just born with that mindset? I'm a person that takes losses hard so I doubt I could ever rise to the very peak of any sort of competition, because the road there is paved with lots of loss for sure. I guess time will tell if Flash can weather his losses and continue the reign of dominance. All I know is it's pretty fun watching him now... seems to have so few exploitable weaknesses. It's not your fault if you don't understand the concept, it's my fault for not explaining it better in the article . In essence the "mental state" is the state of mind of the player, if that makes any more sense. It is what is running through the players mind at any given point during a match/series. This incorporates a vast section of things, like momentum of a player, the champions mindset vs the challengers midset and things like that. It also incorporates belief in ones self (which is lacking atm from a number gamers) and belief and confidence in your abilities. The easiest one for someone to target, and disrupt, is the belief in yourself. In particular, Flash does this well. If you still need clarification say so
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On June 13 2008 12:12 Plexa wrote:Show nested quote +On June 13 2008 04:22 raga4ka wrote:On June 13 2008 04:08 Plexa wrote:It's 7am, so forgive me if i write something stupid :X On June 13 2008 03:48 raga4ka wrote:
Plexa JD didn't cheese on Katrina and Baekmagoji because he was scared of the mech build maybe if it was in MSL or OSL i could assume that but GSI that is just wrong . He cheesed because Flash cheesed him the first game and JD is the kind of player that likes to give a taste of their own medicine . Okay, what evidence do you have to support that? I mean you could say that about Nada (like in his pre-interview before his match with TT - 'I'll show him how to cheese') but i've seen nothing to indicate that about Jaedong. I'd have to see some interviews or games to make me change my mind about it. He couldn't care less for GSI it is because he is dependent on every other league there is there and it counts not just for money and fame but for the team too Rather true - but remember that he just out to Flash in OSL - reducing one avenue of revenue. Being the one of the only Lecaf players in the GSI surely he would want to do well to create a good name for the team. After all sponsors love exposure - it's not like he's going to come out and play sub-par shitty games just because the tournament doesn't matter. Just because the tournament was 'unofficial' doesn't make it any less of a big tournament. There was enough $$ there to keep gamers interested and imo he wanted to win. How hard he wanted to win may be questioned however. ... so i think that the lost in GSI had nothing to do with his confidence. Let's assume that LJD is the kind of player who does like to give a player a taste of his own medicine. Obviously, coming off a quarter final loss in the OSL - Jaedong would want to revenge that right? Give Flash a taste of his own medicine? The only difference between the GSI series and the MSL series is the mindset of each player. Their skills had not deteriorated at all, but Flash held the mental high ground and ultimately that spurred him onto victory. Whether or not Jaedong was confident or not doesn't really matter, the point is the Flash has a stronger mental state than Jaedong - which is a comparative term. Thus it doesn't mean that Jaedong was metnally weak, just that Flash was stronger. The influence that JD left on every other player and Flash as the Zerg to beat is huge because there were tons of players cheesing him and even now, I dno, i can only name Flash and Backho who authentically cheesed him, Flash and Casy used creative non-standard builds. But yes, test of a true champion is his cheese resistivity. ..but JD is not the type of player who cheeses when he feels he will lose to a mech build if not , unlike Flash who was known as the cheese it self .Asummeing that are you trying to tell me that JD 9 pooled Boxer , because he was not sure he could win otherways . I disagree there. Jaedong used a build which increased his winning chances the most. Knowing that Boxer would almost invariable FE on Katrina, 9 pool is a pretty sound choice to get an easy win. He knows he can beat him in a straight up game, but after evaluating all the different strategies he came to the conclusion that 9pool speed was the strongest option. And hey, it was. "Mind Games" is a brilliant article on the notion of cheesing, and i strongly recommend it if you haven't read it already. I'm pretty sure he was doing it even for fun with both boxer and Flash for boxer it was intentional but againts Flash it was due him cheeseing on BS. Flash cheesed him because he can't beat him on BS , but JD did it not because he was scared of the mech build not in this tournament atleast but maybe it was for fun or just to give Flash a taste of his own medicine i'm almost 100 % sure about that . Like i said before, Jaedong chose his builds so that he would maximize his chances to win against Flash - just as Flash did for the same series. Knowing that Flash would play FE and Mech Jaedong could safely assume that some kind of cheese rush would work - and hey! it did. I dont know if he was scared of the mech build, although he must have realized he had a much better chance of winning by exploiting the standard play of Flash on the map. Against with Baek, a similar thought process must have gone through his mind. Flash however, pulled through with some stunning defensive work. The moment you have Jaedong doubting his skill and thinking he's got a better chance using a risky all in build then you know his mental state has been undermined. If Flash had lost to Jaedong in the OSL i assure you than Jaedong would have crushed him here as well. It all comes down to mind games.. Compareing him to savior on the cheese topic ain't right . I think its a valid comparison on the grounds presented in "Mind Games" Aham first JD played Flash 2/3 and 3/3 game in OSL after GSI so your logic fails and he didn't cheese him there . Oh? Really? http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/games/?tabulator_search=jaedong flash&auto_redirect=1OSL was played on the 22nd GSI on the 25th - my logic stands Show nested quote + Second why should he cheese flash because he didn't find a solution to one game in MSL and even not knowing that it is comeing based only on 1 game in MSL . No one but Flash himself knew if he was going mech in GSI it was an invitational and just by that i'm 100 % sure that JD cheesed with not a single thought of mech build or Flash , but more about the thought that he was being cheesed himself on Bluestorm. As I've already established through a simple TLPD search, there was three days between OSL and GSI - obviously not enough time for him to come up with a solution. I didn't realize how close the two series were but now i do, and it actually strengthens my argument. Show nested quote +And when he cheesed Boxer he actually lowered his chances of beating him because a cheese can always be defend if scouted. He actually got lucky that was not scouted and was definitely not done to max out his chanses to win JD could have killed Boxer back then with just muta harras. Yes, but there was a 99% probability that Boxer would 14CC, and why not capitalize on that like a smart player? And thats what Jaedong did. Show nested quote +Look how he demolishes cheese in msl done by Lucifer now and Flash's cheese in the final game last MSL you just can't compare MSL/OSL to GSI . Well i suppose after being cheesed, and losing so much because of it, he had to figure out how to stop it eventually?! But in all seriousness the Troy cheese was brilliant - if you haven't watched it recently go rewatch it, it was pure genius. Far superior to that of the MSL cheese imo. But this point is rather superfluous to the whole argument. Show nested quote + Bisu lost shit load of games in GSI and was not playing well but in OSL he was at 100% . Nope i disagree with you there. Bisu only just limped through to the Ro8 and then Much played like a chump and was eliminated in two <10 min games. Hardly evidence to suggest Bisu was playing at his peak. The games against Flash were nice though, i'll give you that - but he still lost 1-3 which is a sad scoreline. Show nested quote +Or are you telling me that JD cheesed flash just because flash was up 1 game in OSL NOT ELIMINATED FROM THERE and that he lost 1 game to him in MSL ?????????????? Again, as established by a TLPD search this is factually wrong- the OSL series had been played in its entirety Show nested quote +You can't say that a lost to Flash killed his confidance he beat him in MSL , if it happens like that then he would be lone gone after his Bo5 with the rock . Jaedong was still on the rise then, with the mindset of a challenger - losing a Bo5 to Rock isn't that bad anyway, you can still tear through some chumps in ODT... thats hardly a mental state crushing incident. Although a weaker player would simply fall by the way side, but obviously Jaedong is a champion and small things like that don't phase him. Show nested quote +And what happen after that series he was not ever beaten in a BO5 series not by Toss not by Terran not by zerg and lost a single Bo3 in OSL and not so important Bo3 in GSI .Thats why i think that when JD losses he rapes you even harder and can't be compared to saviors scenario with FBH . Again thats based on the premise that the OSL series hadn't been fully played out - which is wrong. And yes, we can't compare Jaedong to Savior/FBH yet - just wait until Jaedong loses the last set; then we'll talk.
Ok my bad i thought that the second and third game in OSL was after GSI , anyway i still don't think that he cheesed him because he couldn't find a solution to a mech build , but maybe for revenge in OSL and the fact that he was pissed for being cheesed in the first game together are a strong possibilitys .
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haha and then Flash loses the first match of OSL! :O! THis is why I <3 SC. Flash's mental "edge" just got used against him!
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Aotearoa39261 Posts
Haha well thats the nature of the beast  one particular series (or in this case game) doesn't typically dictate the decline of a player. Its generally two or more. Losing a match in the OSL is somewhat destiny anyway - winners curse ftw
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@ Sigrun
Tiamat: 3-0 TvZ
Colosseum: 5-1 TvZ
Athena: 2-1 TvZ
Othello: 11-8 TvZ
What i see with this statistic, is that the 3 first maps werent playend extensively and we cannot say that ther is an imbalance !
One game of Tiamat was a loss against Hwasin and i think it was more due to the Mouse....
U cannot argue at Colosseum also, 6 games doesnt mean shit when there is Mind, Flash, Sea playing....
Othello got good statistic toi rely on with approxymatively 20 games played on it
It wont be the inbalance of the map that will decide the possible winner of the Hwasin vs Jaedong match but their current form
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United States1654 Posts
On June 14 2008 00:41 trollbone wrote:
What i see with this statistic, is that the 3 first maps werent playend extensively and we cannot say that ther is an imbalance !
Yes I know such a small sample size doesn't determine balance, but I believe that it shows Terran has a slight advantage over Zerg on those maps, and with a TvZ specialist such as Hwasin versus the slumping ZvT of Jaedong, I can only assume Hwasin is going to use each advantage he can get.
Also OSL spoilers for Flash vs Luxury:
+ Show Spoiler + Luxury overcame the map imbalance on Troy, but I felt that Flash played a little sloppy there, with not scouting Luxury's build and losing his Vessels quite carelessly. Luxury's build was pretty damn smart though.
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Aotearoa39261 Posts
On June 14 2008 03:16 Sigrun wrote:Show nested quote +On June 14 2008 00:41 trollbone wrote:
What i see with this statistic, is that the 3 first maps werent playend extensively and we cannot say that ther is an imbalance !
Yes I know such a small sample size doesn't determine balance, but I believe that it shows Terran has a slight advantage over Zerg on those maps, and with a TvZ specialist such as Hwasin versus the slumping ZvT of Jaedong, I can only assume Hwasin is going to use each advantage he can get. Also OSL spoilers for Flash vs Luxury: + Show Spoiler + Luxury overcame the map imbalance on Troy, but I felt that Flash played a little sloppy there, with not scouting Luxury's build and losing his Vessels quite carelessly. Luxury's build was pretty damn smart though. + Show Spoiler [OSL spoiler] +I disagree. Troy isn't exactly imbalanced ZvT - its just that the games on it have all had good reasons for the Terrans winning. They have either been clearly superior players or cheesed their way to victory (ie Flash and Xellos). Lux played the map as it was intended to be played, and Flash made a number of unforced errors which ultimately cost him. The map looked very balanced in that game - which is pleasing to see given the 1-6 stats on it haha
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On June 13 2008 08:44 Sigrun wrote:
All Jaedong has is his micro and mechanics, and a rusty worn copy of Savior's ZvT manual.
Nice quote, I'd change my sig to this but the Mafia thread would shit a brick
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On June 11 2008 00:51 Jimtudor wrote:
Sweet article. Ultimate weapon ftw!
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is flash losing his edge [osl]  ?
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On June 14 2008 12:54 ScarFace wrote:is flash losing his edge [osl] ?
Perhaps it was fun while it lasted . + Show Spoiler +Flash lost to hero in PL he ain't exactly bonjwa yet
I'm still waiting for Jaedong to become the true next Bonjwa it is just inevitable with his skills as long as he continues to play at professional level .
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Aotearoa39261 Posts
Wait up a sec? "Bonjwa" has been thrown around quite a bit since PoP brought it into mainstream use. Simply put, Bisu is no "Bonjwa", Jaedong can never be a bonjwa nor can Flash. A true Bonjwa wins 3 MSLs then his OSL the season after. Flash will, ultimately, fall by the way side - and my prediction is that he becomes like July. A strong player that never was a bonjwa - yet stands amongst them on the podium.
For the record Flash is bound by destiny to lose in the OSL. However, that does not mean he is washed up. While Jaedong fell similarly, the circumstances surrounding that period of time are different.
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On June 14 2008 21:06 Plexa wrote:
Wait up a sec? "Bonjwa" has been thrown around quite a bit since PoP brought it into mainstream use. Simply put, Bisu is no "Bonjwa", Jaedong can never be a bonjwa nor can Flash. A true Bonjwa wins 3 MSLs then his OSL the season after. Flash will, ultimately, fall by the way side - and my prediction is that he becomes like July. A strong player that never was a bonjwa - yet stands amongst them on the podium.
For the record Flash is bound by destiny to lose in the OSL. However, that does not mean he is washed up. While Jaedong fell similarly, the circumstances surrounding that period of time are different.
Hah i knew that he had to win 3 MSL but didn't know that it has to be before OSL .
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The pattern PoP noticed isn't a prerequisitory thing though. He just pointed out a pattern and then predicted Bisu to become a "bonjwa" since his 3rd consequetive MSL finals was reminiscent of Oov and Savior (who both happened to be "bonjwas"), a point I strongly argued against since Bisu, his strong performance in individual leagues aside, wasn't nearly as dominant as the four "bonjwas". A player can win two OSL in a row before his first MSL victory for all I care, if someone's good enough, people will end up anointing him as the next "bonjwa".
All Flash has to do is keep his winning. It's no easy task as winning one match leads to tougher competition be it the proleague postseason matches or the latter stages of the individual leagues. Keep winning - the trophies, winning percentages and memorable matches will follow. Whereas before I felt Bisu needed to raise his level of domination to become a "bonjwa", I feel that all Flash has to do is keep performing like he is, something I don't he'll manage to achieve. He's already cracking with the elevating schedule demands. Jaedong almost managed it at the end of last season, but cracked under the hectic schedule, unable to deal with the various strategies oppponents was lesser skill kept throwing at him.
Just goes to show you what a monster Savior was when he somehow managed to keep his winning rates above 70% when he had the postseason proleague matches and both individual leagues to keep him occupided. Not to mention the maps pool completely sucked ass (though I feel this has been slightly exaggerated to fit the drama).
No player, not even a "bonjwa" can't win it ALL. There's never been a player that managed to sweep the two major individual leagues and the proleague. All players feel the pressure once the schedule demands goes out of hand. Boxer, and Nada to some extent had their peaks in a completely different era so you can't compare them to the players of today accurately. Oov had his peak before the fusion of the proleagues, though it must be said that his level of domination really faltered once his schedule became tight. That's why I hesitate to agree when people claim Oov as the most dominant of them all, but that's another story.
Since the fusion of the proleagues, I think only four players came any close to winning it all. A reborn (his second peak if you will) Oov nearly managed to win it all (OSL victory, Proleague victory) but was stopped cold by Savior in the MSL. Savior himself came close (OSL victory) but his teammates failed him even though he won his match in the postseason playoffs, and Bisu stopped him cold in the MSL.
Stork and Jaedong are the only ones that came close to winning it all since the creation of the modern 5 day proleague schedule. Stork choked at the final stages of both MSL and OSL despite probably being the favourite to win, and Jaedong succumbed to the ever-tricky Flash in the early stages of the OSL. Can Flash prevail where the others two have failed? I don't thinks so, because winning two individual leagues at once is next to impossible, and winning the proleague requires the help of your teammates. But I don't think he needs to do all that. Just keep on winning, even if you slip up every once a while, and people will acknowledge you as the next Starcaft god.
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Aotearoa39261 Posts
You can differentiate between "the best" and the 3MSL->OSL bonjwa although this really is a moto point and is purely arguing definitions - but your other points are subject to debate.
Just goes to show you what a monster Savior was when he somehow managed to keep his winning rates above 70% when he had the postseason proleague matches and both individual leagues to keep him occupided. Not to mention the maps pool completely sucked ass (though I feel this has been slightly exaggerated to fit the drama). Savior is a perfect example of how 'great' you have to be to dominate everything. There was no tournament he entered where he wasn't a favorite. Sure we didn't have 5-day proleague but Savior's schedule was as hectic as it got and he still managed to dominate.
No player, not even a "bonjwa" can't win it ALL. There's never been a player that managed to sweep the two major individual leagues and the proleague. All players feel the pressure once the schedule demands goes out of hand. Boxer, and Nada to some extent had their peaks in a completely different era so you can't compare them to the players of today accurately. Oov had his peak before the fusion of the proleagues, though it must be said that his level of domination really faltered once his schedule became tight. That's why I hesitate to agree when people claim Oov as the most dominant of them all, but that's another story.
Since the fusion of the proleagues, I think only four players came any close to winning it all. A reborn (his second peak if you will) Oov nearly managed to win it all (OSL victory, Proleague victory) but was stopped cold by Savior in the MSL. Savior himself came close (OSL victory) but his teammates failed him even though he won his match in the postseason playoffs, and Bisu stopped him cold in the MSL.
Stork and Jaedong are the only ones that came close to winning it all since the creation of the modern 5 day proleague schedule. Stork choked at the final stages of both MSL and OSL despite probably being the favourite to win, and Jaedong succumbed to the ever-tricky Flash in the early stages of the OSL. Can Flash prevail where the others two have failed? I don't thinks so, because winning two individual leagues at once is next to impossible, and winning the proleague requires the help of your teammates. But I don't think he needs to do all that. Just keep on winning, even if you slip up every once a while, and people will acknowledge you as the next Starcaft god. I would suggest that the points you raise about hectic schedules is not a mutually exclusive idea from the thesis of this article. A hectic schedule can only be detrimental to a players mental state and can lead to unforced disruptions in the players games; often leading to losses. Savior, an example of someone who held his mental state strong throughout a hectic schedule, is a true champion. Iloveoov also was stomping mini-events all over the show (not tlpd recorded sadly) and his schedule was crazy as well - he held it together and achieved similar success. The mark of a champion in this regard is coping under the pressures of overwork. Obviously, weaker players succumb to the pressure and even the champions fall once their mental state is broken (hi savior) as things rapidly go down hill.
I think your judgment of winning all three events (OSL/MSL/PL) to be quite demanding. As you said, no player has done it (and for good reason) - and there a number of factors why. After winning a final players often become "complacent" or attain that "top of the world" feeling and lose focus (their mental state deteriorates). This is a reason why only boxer/nada have made consecutive OSL finals as well. GoRush could have been a dual league winner if he hadn't lost focus against Nada in the IOPS semi (after defeating nada in YATGK). And there are countless other examples of similar things happening throughout sc history. Winning a league + PL is much less demanding as the Proleague is a "team effort" where the one individual game is part of a whole set of games and thus if he loses the team is not lost. Its a team spirit not individual, so the team can pick up the slack whereas the player does not have this luxury in an individual tournament. Also some players like July for instance, were winning multiple leagues at the same time. Like iTv and Ghem and stuff - but obviously after winning the OSL things are different because it really is the pinnacle of Starcraft.
Winning both leagues at the same time isn't necessary to become a dominant figurehead in starcraft. Flash will not win this OSL, it just won't happen. But he will be back next OSL strong as ever ready to dominate once again - just like what happened with July after his win in Gillette. Indeed, i beleive that Flash is most similar to July in terms of dominance rather than the conventional bonjwa (3MSL1OSL). Jaedong and Stork fall better into the categories of Nal_ra and Gorush imho. Neither outright dominant for a significant period of time yet they made finals and semis regularly. Obviously its not a clear cut transition but its a composite of the "lesser" greats.
Ever 08 will be the wakeup call to Flash that he cannot get complacent (after getting owned by Lux) and will go on to strike it big in the next OSL (whatever that may be). Here's hoping that July will pull through as the [first] Starleague winner from Soul and the second golden mouse recipient
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Hong Kong20321 Posts
ah plexa u doubt flash so much
FLASH WILL PULL THROUGH!! lolol
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EPT
