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Aotearoa39261 Posts
Take a snapshot;
Marvel at the beauty;
Welcome to Starcraft
A State of Starcraft
By Plexa and Nony
Teamliquid Final Edits
It was a streak of dominance that none could rival; five consecutive MSL finals and an OSL victory with a win rate of 67.16%. The end of Savior’s giant run marked a change in the history of Starcraft. To that point the best gamers had distinguished themselves by having a superior skill set; Boxers dominance through his micro and strategies, Nada’s dominance through his superior everything, iloveoov’s dominance through his superior macro and Savior’s dominance with his macro and timing. The greats of old were a cut above the rest in one way or another, the separation between the pros and the amateurs was vast.
When Bisu defeated Savior in perhaps the most pivotal series in the history of Brood War, all of that was tossed out the window and a new era was ushered in. With the rise of Bisu came a surge of S-Class gamers which flooded all the leagues. Hwasin, Stork, Firebathero, Jaedong and Mind literally came from nowhere to dominate in a ridiculous fashion which spawned the most competitive period of Starcraft since its origin. The separation between these players was nonexistent, yet some, remarkably, were more successful than others.
Welcome to post Savior Starcraft, where every game is a mental struggle for superiority.
Having a superior mental condition typically leads victory, especially when the separation between players is very small. Iloveoov’s superior mental condition in his final against Boxer allowed him to remain calm after the brilliance of game four and defeat Boxer in the final set. The skill difference in this match was infinitesimal and the superior mental condition of Oov became deciding factor. In So1 OSL, Boxer’s superior mental condition lead him to victory over Pusan in one of the most remarkable comebacks ever – indeed if Pusan’s mental state was stronger he could have resisted the momentum that Boxer had built up. Thus there is a strong connection between mindset and victory when the skill discrepancy is very narrow.
The surge of brilliant mechanical and strategical players due to the rise in professionalism in Starcraft has lead to the playing field to be leveled. The fundamental skills of A class gamers compares favourably to the skills of the S class which shows that the gap is becoming smaller and smaller between the progamers. Nowadays you can find brilliant skills from players who have fewer than ten televised games rather than just the top three gamers of the time before Savior. But the reason there is still an S class despite the closing skill gap, is that the S Class have a superior mental state. This idea that mental states defined winning semis and finals has trickled down into every single game. Maintaining the winning mindset is the key to the S-Class’s success.
Maintaining this winning mindset is harder than it seems, and very few players can actually do it. Let’s look at Savior for example. Prior to his series with Bisu, there was nothing he could not do. His visual expressions, his interviews, the yawn rapes - everything about Savior leading up to that point spelt Maestro. The expectations from himself to defeat the newcomer, Bisu, in GomTV S1 were huge. He was the best gamer in the world after all. Then he got sent crashing back to Earth in a crushing 0-3 defeat. You could see the change in his mental state quite clearly.
Savior during his phase of dominance and Savior after, the difference is astounding
Nothing had changed in his skills; he was still the most talented ZvT player in the world. Yet he couldn’t defeat Nada in the Shinhan Masters – despite beating him weeks before. There was no major skill discrepancy from the Finals of Shinhan 3 to the Shinhan Masters; all that it can be put down to is the mindset of Savior. Indeed as time progressed Savior was plagued with the fact that he was no longer the best, a concept which was difficult to grasp. As he lost more and more games like the FireBatHero series or the Iris quarterfinal his mental state deteriorated, and he could no longer live up to his own image. His mindset did a 180 and despite his very capable skills, could not muster a win.
Preserving your mindset past crushing defeats is difficult as Bisu demonstrated quite clearly. Mind had the mindset of a champ, and momentum to back it. He had recently defeated iloveoov and Savior in quite possibly the hardest MSL run in history and now faced Bisu – the reigning champion. Once again the expectations around Bisu were high, both amongst the community and within himself. Mind showed off his impeccable talents and crushed Bisu 3-1. Bisu was crushed and his mental state suffered severely. He met Stork in the EVER07 OSL semi-finals where he was dominated 3-0 in disappointing games. Bisu’s skills had not diminished, he had practiced every day since defeating stork in GomTV S2 MSL – but his mental condition was hit hard by the loss to Mind.
![[image loading]](http://www.teamliquid.net/staff/Plexa/State/bisu.png) He was a revolutionary, but couldn't hold his Mind together
While the idea that your mental condition is highly important is not a new one, its importance has never been greater. Coaches have a number of responsibilities within a team, but one which is becoming increasingly important is maintaining the mindset of his/her players. The legendary T1 ex-Coach Joo Hoon was a master at doing this. When T1 was struggling in Proleague and the team was desperate for a win against OGN he was able to bring the best out of a slumping Oov by changing his mindset. In Oov’s exact words;Up until yesterday, I had no confidence. My winning percentage was 0%. I lost every time. So I told my coach, "I lose a lot in practice. I have no confidence" and he replied, "Admit that you are not the top class and tackle it". And he also said, "Choi Yeon-Sung the captain's win has the biggest influence in the team". Thanks to him, I regained my confidence. I prepared with the mindset that I will win even if I die.
There are only two players in the history of Starcraft with the valuable ability to overcome all obstacles, admit they are not the best anymore, and work there way up to the top. It will come as no surprise that these two players are Boxer and Nada. Boxer was able to come back time and time again in the major leagues despite facing many brutal defeats such as his loss to Oov and Reach. Indeed his mental strength is stronger than essentially all other gamers and the only reason why he has not reached success recently because of his Air Force duties. Nada stands as a testament to the strongest mental condition of any gamer in Starcraft. He has suffered painstaking losses to GoRush only to come back weeks later and defeat him. He has OSL medals across three distinct time periods and a number of MSL 1st/2nd placings. Even now there are signs that he is still a force to be reckoned with. This can only be attributed to his heightened mental strength.
Their styles were different, yet these two are the greatest Progamers of all time
Thus far you might be curious as to why certain gamers have largely been omitted from this article, specifically Flash and his defeats of both Stork and Jaedong. Jaedong was expected by all to win his series against Flash in Bacchus OSL, just like he had done in the MSL. As well all know, Flash used some inspired builds and clever tactics to defeat Jaedong 2-1. This caused Jaedong some visible mental anguish, but he was still a powerhouse. Then to follow up on this defeat, Flash demolished him again in the GSI 2-1 which hurt Jaedong even more. Sure Jaedong went on to win GomTV S4 MSL, defeating a sub par field along the way, but he was eliminated from the OSL in straight sets by Casy and Backho. His MSL run hasn’t exactly been ‘dominant’ either – losing a game to Hwasin. Sure Jaedong’s still great, but he’s lost his edge and will be crashing down to earth soon.
The same can be said for Stork – who ironically brought out the best in Flash. We are all aware of Storks comeback in the Daum 3rd/4th playoffs with his Carrier antics which made Flash look like a complete noob. But Flash took this set back and turned it around into his strongest point. He developed a specific anti-Shuttle Play build and highly refined anti-Carrier micro which he first showcased against Anytime in the GSI. Flash’s crushing defeat of Stork in the GSI 3-2 was undoubtedly a huge blow to Stork, but his humiliating 0-3 to Flash in the OSL was much worse. Flash had taken the wind out of Stork’s sails by crippling his mental condition.
So what exactly is making Flash different to the players of today – why is he so strong in all match ups?
Well like other great players, he turned a race weakness into his biggest strength. Savior broke out onto the scene by showing that Nada’s ‘invincible’ SK Terran could be defeated by heavy defiler use which later became his signature move. Bisu revitalised the fight against Zerg by embracing Sair-DT play after FE and created a wave of strong PvZ gamers. Stork brought PvT to stagnation with his Shuttle+Reaver into Carrier use and created a wave of Protoss > Terran. Jaedong reversed the harm that Bisu had done by turning his weakest match up into his strongest and developed a way to fight off the harass. As already mentioned, Flash took the standard PvT model imposed on the scene by Stork and developed an effective counter to it reversing P>T trends. Nothing here is unique about him really, so it must lie elsewhere.
An interesting comment made by Yellow about Flash deals specifically with this issue;When I watch Flash play the game, without pretense, I'm amazed. Simply amazing. I've never seen anyone who can manage the eco as well as he does. Every eco falls into perfect timing. PERFECT timing. Not only that, it seems like he's spending all his eco, yet he always have spare mineral to expand more... That really is breathtaking to watch. Is he really calculating all the timing? Or is this by his sense? So perhaps Flash is the player who is bringing back the old school way of abilities over mindset. But this simply can’t be the case. Stork’s macro and Jaedong’s macro is on par with Flash’s, there can be no doubt. Each of them boasts formidable talent in doing the fundamental skills of Starcraft. Flash was able to overcome them both not by using his hands, he used his head.
 On both counts Flash was able to circumvent Stork and Jaedong's mindset and destroy them by reducing their mental condition to rubble. He used calculated strategy, such as the Flash Build and Metal against Jaedong on Katrina, to win games and gain a mental advantage over his opponent by unsettling their in game plans. There was no way he could have defeated Jaedong without first demolishing his mental strength. The rush fest in the GSI was a testament to Jaedong's frustration at Flash - Jaedong simply imploded. Jaedong could have very well defeated Flash with straight up play, but Flash got to him first - and Jaedong lost it. The frustration of being cheesed and the lack of a solution for Flash's mech build on Katrina demolished his mental strength and lead to Flash taking the win on both counts.
Stork is another prime example of this, he simply could not find an effective counter for Flash’s PvT build and ran himself into a brick wall each game by repeating the same build in both the GSI and the OSL Finals. Stork was criticised quite heavily by fans around the world for not changing his play and becoming a boring Protoss. Flash got inside his head and defeated Stork from the inside out causing him to play within his comfort zone. Flash capitlised on this every game. Flash's brilliant build took Stork out of the comfort zone he was trying to create. Stork simply could not respond effectively to this challenge and, like Jaedong, imploded. Stork's dismal OSL performance just shows how much those losses destroyed Stork's mental strength and reduced him to 'just another Protoss'.
Flash is a new kind of champion, one who understands the importance of maintaining peak mental condition at all stages during a tournament. One who realises that no matter who his opponent is he must crush their mental strength to achieve a convincing a dominating victory. His amazing fundamentals and creative mind are simply the vessel to enact this punishment on his victims. He does everything in his power to win each set, and inflicts as much mental anguish as possible when he does so. This is exactly how Flash crushed the best that Protoss and Zerg had to offer. In addition to this his own mental strength grows with each win, just as his momentum does. And this makes him a very daunting opponent no matter who you are.
Only time will tell us whether Flash can be classed as a legend like Boxer or Nada, no one has really been able to gain the upper hand over him and defeat him in an important event. But when Flash does finally fall, it will be because a new gamer has come along and been able to take Flash out of his comfort zone and crush him – just as he has done to many other great gamers. And then a new dominant player will emerge and carry a stronger mental state which will propel him onto great things. Indeed, this shift in Brood War has reduced the longevity of dominance and increased turnover of dominant players. Very soon the whole process will be repeating over. That being said, Flash has gone one step further than other gamers and created a style targeted at the mental state. This makes him a revolutionary, and one who’s impact on the scene will be felt for years to come. Arguably, this next great dominant player will take things another step further - but we’ll have to wait to see that.
Flash is the player to beat, and he knows it
Despite Starcraft going through one of the most competitive phases in its history, we still have had the emergence of true greats. These greats are not separated by the rest because of their fundamental skills, like the gamers of old were, but they win and lose based on a mental edge. Indeed, the mental edge has become the most prominent facet of progaming today – something which Flash has capitalised on. He has won his games against other greats by using his head to demolish their mental condition and then power his way to victory. His entire style is built around this idea. Flash may not be iloveoov or Boxer, but he is taking Brood war in new directions – and for that – he gets my respect and admiration.
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Great stuff. Good read. Nice pictures.
Amazingly edited I must say. You must give me the number of whoever did it. :p
Keep up the great work!
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Nice article! I was thinking something similar after the Flash-stork OSL finals. Its always sad to see a player with theacro and micro of a chamption, but who doesn't have a winning mindset. But that isn't as sad as watching someone lose their winning mindset  I hope JD comes back to win the MSL so he can regain his confidence.
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Fucking baller article. Loved everything about it. I always read the Final Edits even though I don't follow progaming so closely anymore. Your article almost makes me wanna look up jaedong and flash VODs. Then again I guess I could watch the games live eh, I am on vacation in Korea.
I *loved* the section about Nada and Boxer. Back in the day I used to hate Nada a lot because he basically surpassed all other gamers in success right before my eyes. As a Boxer fan watching the game between them in the KT-KTF invite tourney was painful.
The only thing I would add to the article is that Nada's mental strength has also been tested harder than any other gamer if not for the fact that his father died during his career. He came back and won the fucking golden mouse. Nuff said.
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Aotearoa39261 Posts
Totally Ack, Nada has the strongest mental condition of any progamer; that guy is such a baller
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thanks for "final editing" this plexa and nony :O good read
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Hungary11284 Posts
Wow, I missed this gem by at least 1.30 hours. Just beautiful.
Kinda compliments the "Mind Games" theme of the previous article by Rage, although it has a slightly different focus. I still think Flash would deserve a FE on his own besides being prominent in this article.
Well done both of you.
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Netherlands19133 Posts
Amazing article, awsome read with my morning tea :D. Thanks!
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I hate it when I can't quite grasp why a player is doing well. I really don't like it when I can't fully appreciate a player's genius. I think perhaps Flash is the first player to do this to me since Oov.
I first couldn't understand why Iloveoov dominated the scene despite the fact the Nada played the game more crisply. It took me a while to get the fact that Iloveoov didn't have more troops than Nada not because he had faster hands, but because his astounding game plan allowed him the resources and the production buildings to get the superior army count. His game plan was SO far ahead of his time that his opponents could do the cleverest of things but still lose the game because they played by a game plan that simply did not permit them to win against Oov.
I hated it because Iloveoov looked sloppy, and because he kept winning, not because he fought well or caught his opponent off guard, but because of his superior understanding of the game. Understanding of the game that I as a fan who was new to the progaming could never quite grasp (heck, his opponents didn't seem to be fully understanding it at the time either).
Take Flash's TvP for example. This match up is probably what got him all this attention in the first place. And the thing is. I don't enjoy watching him play this match up as much as I enjoy, say, Mind, playing it. Mind sends workers to keep checking what his opponent is doing. He reads their play. He utilizes vultures extremely well, harassing protoss' expansions, laying mines everywhere, cutting off stray dragoons and generally not letting the protoss macro up in peace. He keeps sending dropships to harass if the protoss player isolates his expansions with pylons to prevent vulture harassment. His tank placement during battles is inch perfect. It's so much fun watching him read the game, make his decisions and carry them out in such a top notch manner.
Flash, on the other hand, doesn't seem to rely on scouting that much. He doesn't read their play, he guesses it. He doesn't read as he goes along, but rather, predicts their play before the game even starts. That seems to be why he succeeds when he cheeses his opponents, or gets away with an amazingly greedy build and overrun his opponents later on. His in-game play isn't visually spectacular for a player of his caliber. He simply gets the upper hand and does enough to keep the advantage. Sure he plays well, no, he plays extremely well. But that alone does not explain why he is getting such great results. And it really drives me crazy because my understanding of this game right now doesn't allow me to see as Flash sees. It's like he doesn't win because he plays well (he plays it extremely well, but you know what I mean), but because he knows how to win. Like Oov.
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Flash also seems to give himself time to get together. He frequently leaves the booth after a win or a loss and I've always thought it's to give himself some time to compose himself before the next game. He takes himself out of the area, gets it all together, then comes back ready for the next round.
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I still remember when Nada beat Savior he said his mindset was, "Its just another zerg".
Gogo Nada~
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Aotearoa39261 Posts
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Best article I've read in a while. Thanks.
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An article about state of mind.Really wonderful.
10/10
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Sweet article. Ultimate weapon ftw!
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On June 10 2008 23:13 Letmelose wrote:
I hate it when I can't quite grasp why a player is doing well. I really don't like it when I can't fully appreciate a player's genius. I think perhaps Flash is the first player to do this to me since Oov.
I first couldn't understand why Iloveoov dominated the scene despite the fact the Nada played the game more crisply. It took me a while to get the fact that Iloveoov didn't have more troops than Nada not because he had faster hands, but because his astounding game plan allowed him the resources and the production buildings to get the superior army count. His game plan was SO far ahead of his time that his opponents could do the cleverest of things but still lose the game because they played by a game plan that simply did not permit them to win against Oov.
I hated it because Iloveoov looked sloppy, and because he kept winning, not because he fought well or caught his opponent off guard, but because of his superior understanding of the game. Understanding of the game that I as a fan who was new to the progaming could never quite grasp (heck, his opponents didn't seem to be fully understanding it at the time either).
Take Flash's TvP for example. This match up is probably what got him all this attention in the first place. And the thing is. I don't enjoy watching him play this match up as much as I enjoy, say, Mind, playing it. Mind sends workers to keep checking what his opponent is doing. He reads their play. He utilizes vultures extremely well, harassing protoss' expansions, laying mines everywhere, cutting off stray dragoons and generally not letting the protoss macro up in peace. He keeps sending dropships to harass if the protoss player isolates his expansions with pylons to prevent vulture harassment. His tank placement during battles is inch perfect. It's so much fun watching him read the game, make his decisions and carry them out in such a top notch manner.
Flash, on the other hand, doesn't seem to rely on scouting that much. He doesn't read their play, he guesses it. He doesn't read as he goes along, but rather, predicts their play before the game even starts. That seems to be why he succeeds when he cheeses his opponents, or gets away with an amazingly greedy build and overrun his opponents later on. His in-game play isn't visually spectacular for a player of his caliber. He simply gets the upper hand and does enough to keep the advantage. Sure he plays well, no, he plays extremely well. But that alone does not explain why he is getting such great results. And it really drives me crazy because my understanding of this game right now doesn't allow me to see as Flash sees. It's like he doesn't win because he plays well (he plays it extremely well, but you know what I mean), but because he knows how to win. Like Oov.
wow, I enjoyed reading this just as much as the FE, which of course was 10/10. Ofc plexa you should be going into journalism for a career. You are probably studying english or something. Your articles are involving and rousing, well written stuff.
Ps I would love if there were something about the 'flash's curse' thread that came around awhile ago. About how poor up-and-coming flash was throttled by top tier player after top tier player in tournaments, never getting a break. It's so compelling to think that actually, that stressful competition probably served to fire Flash up to reach for the top all the quicker; and get there.
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On June 10 2008 23:57 Plexa wrote:
you mean... hwasin?
I think that's what he means, I remember that game on longinus. I became a HwaSin fan after that.
Such a beatiful line "Flash may not be iloveoov or Boxer, but he is taking Brood war in new directions – and for that – he gets my respect and admiration"
This write up was so good.
Thank you so much Plexa!
Nice Images zxk3!!!
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On June 10 2008 22:13 Ack1027 wrote:
The only thing I would add to the article is that Nada's mental strength has also been tested harder than any other gamer if not for the fact that his father died during his career. He came back and won the fucking golden mouse. Nuff said.
word. Nada is probably my favourite sc gamer ever and his golden mouse speaks for itself
Great article!
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I find it amazing how of all the gamers, Boxer and Nada, and to a certain extent, Xellos (GOMTV3 MSL) Nal_Ra, and Reach/Yellow were able to make minor comebacks in their careers. You'd think there be more, but there isn't for some reason.
Great Article Plexa.
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In a talk about mental state, Plexa/Nony, you left out the part where NaDa's dad died, and he came back to win a Starleague as a result of it? o_O
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Gaetele is just a hater don't worry
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Aotearoa39261 Posts
On June 11 2008 02:03 Gaetele wrote:
In a talk about mental state, Plexa/Nony, you left out the part where NaDa's dad died, and he came back to win a Starleague as a result of it? o_O Well that's not exactly the point of the article. Yes Nada has awesome mental strength, no one is denying that - in fact the article praises Nada for his strength. As this was an article about the current state of starcraft, not the successes of Nada (and Boxer) i did omit some detail regarding both of them. Like Boxer's mother getting seriously ill during either Ever or So1 (my memory is failing me >.>) and how he rushed right out of the stadium after the semifinals to support her and ensure that she would be okay. The article is not about the past, its about the present and the role of the mental state. I hope you can understand why i left that bit out.
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8748 Posts
On June 11 2008 02:03 Gaetele wrote:
In a talk about mental state, Plexa/Nony, you left out the part where NaDa's dad died, and he came back to win a Starleague as a result of it? o_O
Yeah.. as Plexa just posted, that's a little bit of a tangent. The article is more saying that it takes a certain mental state to dominate now, rather than just a superior skill set or superior strategy. Overcoming personal distractions is something that has been in progaming from the start.
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great read, except it felt like you used the word "crushed" about 200 times
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Sick read, sick article. Nice insight into the superiority of Flash and other progamers such as NaDa/BoxeR. They're amazing.
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Extremely interesting read. Articles tend to bore me, but this one was really good, "S-Class" if you will.
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I love this well written article, but how is FBH one of the greats that propped up after the bonjwa interregnum? He had strong tvz and tvt [he was on quite a streak] but never really had strong tvp, he never really reached the level where you could give him even odds against any person in the game, or even close to it. His tvp doesn't allow it. Sure he was a strong competitor when he was at his height, but I don't think hes comparable to Hwasin or others- he simply was not well rounded enough.
Otherwise INCREDIBLY well written article. I have a question though; Best defeated Flash, probably because of Flash's mindset. He was overconfident. What do you think will happen when they meet again in the OSL? Will his lost to Best be detrimental to him, or will he bounce back? And how could he make such a large mistake, if he wins simply through smart play/champion mindset?
Edit: Just read that nony helped on this, good job m8.
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that... was... beautiful 
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Great article. Can't wait to see what else you guys will write about later.
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Plexa, do you think that it's harder to push Terran players out of their comfort zone due to the nature of the race? I feel like the meta-game favors the development of Terran maestros, simply because it's so much harder to disrupt a Terran's equilibrium compared to Zerg. You're being a little harsh on Jaedong; as far as I can see, it's tiny and crucial developments in turret placement and timing that are disrupting his ZvT flow more than any mental weakness, since he still dominates the other two matchups.
Also, what about Iris? He was definitely worth listing with FBH, Stork, and Hwasin among the list of post-Savior's fall wizards.
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Nice article, very informative and i enjoyed it!
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wow first "mind games" and now this.. Really nice read plex, thank you for it
Cheers
EDIT: larger nada image available? thx
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Wow I love final edits.
Seriously this is some premium quality shit that only TL has. We have the TSL, we have these great Final Edit articles, we have PowerRank, we have the best strategy forum, we have the the best liquibet.
*sheds a tear* I love TL.net *sniffle*
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Yet another awsome TLFE. I love all of these things. Great insight into Flash's champion mindset. Can't wait for the next one ^^
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This type of strategy happens in all competitive games at the highest levels. No matter what it never ceases to amaze me, I love to see it in action and I love it at the rare times when I can pull it off.
When I played Soldat on a high level, I specifically trained my players in my clan to do this. Not to aim well, not to dodge well, but to destroy your opponent's preconceptions, to unnerve him and take him out of "the zone". Being unpredictable. Clarify your opponent's actions into the future while making your own actions in not make sense even backwards into the past. Getting into your opponents mind and not just reading what he's going to do, but CHANGING what he's going to do. Almost mind control, just a lot more subtle. Instead of aiming well, making your opponent aim worse. The mindgames are endless. You don't even have to listen or look, you just predict where they're coming and fire and the bullet travels and hits them in the face right as they turn the corner before they can actually see you. Rather a pity that soldat makes such a poor spectator sport, as none of this mental battle is very VISIBLE to someone watching, just somehow one guy dies and the other one doesn't.
I also think that this is what players are destroying Idra with, in and outside of Korea. For example White-Ra in the TSL. White-Ra in my opinion is a worse player mechanically but he completely outsmarted Idra and fucked his thoughtprocesss.
Sun Tzu's Art of War speaks about a lot of these concepts. There's a story in there about an ancient chinese general that went to attack a city. The defender realized that he could not hold the city for long and formed a plan ahead of time. The attacking army arrived at the gates, the general in front. There were no defenders on the walls. The gate was open, and inside there were just a few people sweeping the streets, acting as if they don't notice the attackers at all. The general was so unnerved that he retreated.
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I see Flash leave his booth and go outside or something after every game. I think he does that to freshen up his mind, which is a great idea.
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so true, this was especially true in the flash vs stork on katrina when flash indicated that he will go for his anti-carrier build but didnt
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I haven't read through the comments yet but the article says "Jaedong reversed the harm that Bisu had done by turning his weakest match up into his strongest and developed a way to fight off the harass."
Absolutely not true. Jaedong's best matchup, and I'd argue by far, is his zvz.
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Amazing article. 10/10. Always nice to read articles from Plexa (and ty Nony too!). ;D
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The thing about Flash is that he was always good at cheesing, even when he just hit the scene. So he was able to upset players like Bisu even if his timing and mechanics weren't perfect yet. Now he can matchup with anyone well and he is still great at cheesing. It has to be terrifying to be his opponent and wondering what he's cooking up. How do you prepare for that?
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Aotearoa39261 Posts
On June 11 2008 05:08 nofAcedAgent wrote:
wow first "mind games" and now this.. Really nice read plex, thank you for it
Cheers
EDIT: larger nada image available? thx
On June 11 2008 03:48 ScarFace wrote:
I love this well written article, but how is FBH one of the greats that propped up after the bonjwa interregnum? He had strong tvz and tvt [he was on quite a streak] but never really had strong tvp, he never really reached the level where you could give him even odds against any person in the game, or even close to it. His tvp doesn't allow it. Sure he was a strong competitor when he was at his height, but I don't think hes comparable to Hwasin or others- he simply was not well rounded enough. Well to be fair FBH was arguably the best Terran of the era. Iris made Daum finals, then sucked. Flash wasn't quite at his peak and Hwasin also blew out after GomS2. FBH kept it together and was one of the principle efforts of Khans season one victory. Sure he dropped off as well, but he was still a very good terran who would tend to win rather than lose - regardless of the opponent. His TvP was crap, but hi strength in the other two matchups was undeniable. The point of including FBH was that there were many powerful gamers emerging from no where. Before GomS2 FBH was only known for his gay little dances and knocking boxer out of his last ODT. He turned himself around and showed people what was up - notably by crushing Savior.
Otherwise INCREDIBLY well written article. I have a question though; Best defeated Flash, probably because of Flash's mindset. He was overconfident. What do you think will happen when they meet again in the OSL? Will his lost to Best be detrimental to him, or will he bounce back? And how could he make such a large mistake, if he wins simply through smart play/champion mindset? I dont think the loss will have that much effect of him tbh. Flash showed that losing one game doesn't affect him that much. Jaedong stomped him in MSL, Flash stomps him twice back. Stork crushes him in OSL group play, Flash stomps him in two finals. If they meet, it will be a great match - but i dont think their prior encounter will affect Flash too much. However i think that the win by Best is crucial for him. He knows that Flash can be beat, and he's knows that he's got the talent to do so. So he should be able to bring his best to the table and not be intimidated by Flash.
On June 11 2008 04:22 EvoChamber wrote:
Plexa, do you think that it's harder to push Terran players out of their comfort zone due to the nature of the race? I feel like the meta-game favors the development of Terran maestros, simply because it's so much harder to disrupt a Terran's equilibrium compared to Zerg. You're being a little harsh on Jaedong; as far as I can see, it's tiny and crucial developments in turret placement and timing that are disrupting his ZvT flow more than any mental weakness, since he still dominates the other two matchups. Although im not exactly a Jaedong fan, i have noticed a number of trends in progaming. For example, Savior was still dominant as ever right up until FBH crushed him in S2. But you could see that he was losing steam- it was pretty obvious. I think the same thing will happen to Jaedong. Hwasin looks poised to take him out - and the "fear" that used to surround Jaedong isn't there anymore. Hwasin will probably beat Jaedong, in an epic 5 games series, and after that we'll see Jaedong flail about for another season then crash. You could say that about other monsters too. Reach rocked Oov right to his core in Ever04 when he beat him with macro. Oov was still dominant, and raped up Uzoo MSL but when he ran into Reach - he got 3-0'd in a bad fashion. The crash never happens instantaneously, it takes a little time - but its going to happen. Although your comments about the changes in Terran timing/placement are valid as well - they're not mutually exclusive concepts 
Also, what about Iris? He was definitely worth listing with FBH, Stork, and Hwasin among the list of post-Savior's fall wizards. Yea Iris is also a valid gamer that propped up, although personally i felt his rise to be in Shinhan 3, which was prior to Savior. He just kept up the momentum for another season then dropped off. Although he was a very good gamer in his own right sure i could've added him to the list - but theres no need. The list was to show that bundles of gamers propped up after Saviors decline, something which is unique to 2007.
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Aotearoa39261 Posts
On June 11 2008 07:40 LucasWoJ wrote:
I haven't read through the comments yet but the article says "Jaedong reversed the harm that Bisu had done by turning his weakest match up into his strongest and developed a way to fight off the harass."
Absolutely not true. Jaedong's best matchup, and I'd argue by far, is his zvz. Well obviously ZvZ isn't a real matchup? lol no in all seriousness thats a fair point, and saying that it became his 'best' matchup is probably an overstatement... since Ever07 he's gone 10-0 in ZvZ and 13-4 ZvP. The point was to emphasize that Jaedong revolutionised his own playstyle, as Alethios said, and his ZvP did a 180. Although personally i feel that Jaedong's 'force' comes through more in his ZvP than ZvT/ZvZ if you know what i mean.
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Very nice. I wonder if Flash is going to be able to maintain himself against BeSt, or if he's going to get taken down. Flash has been amazing for a long time though, even if he wasn't winning titles, so I think he can do it... That said, BeSt's recent win over him must have rattled him a little.
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very impressive as usual plexa, amazing write up. Good work with nonys susgestion and adding in all the extra stuff. I gotta article goes great with the a state of Mind FE. and just as i was thinking how there hadn't been an FE in a while :D
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nice read i liked it
everyones sort of nitpicking some parts though
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Just noticed this; interesting read. x3 Cool NaDa picture (Boxer's picture is nice, too xO). ~
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Russian Federation1208 Posts
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I like the idea of this article, and it is very well written, but I guess I have a few things to 'nitpick' as someone a few posts above said.
I think the whole Jaedong being beaten by Flash thing is still unfortunately overblown. Jaedong beats him soundly in a bo5 3-1, then loses two bo3s 2-1. They were very evenly matched, and I think that even at the time Jaedong still had a slight advantage in his play (judging strictly from how both players fared in the more standard straight-up games). Obviously since then Flash has remained unstoppable while Jaedong does lose occasionally (as long as it's not ZvZ). However, I really don't think that Jaedong is crashing down, by any means. My point in all this is that while Flash obviously deserves a large part in an article like this at this point in time, I don't think Jaedong should be so easily brushed aside.
I also think that you could have written a fair bit about players like Sea in this article. There is really no better example of a player who seems to be affected by mindset to the point of losing games he would be considered the favorite in. How can a player with a 64% lifetime win percentage with over 200 games played never have even a medal in any major starleague? It's such an amazing case, and even his expressions during and after games are telling enough!
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Not bad i have to disagree with something JD doesn't lack mental state , because of his lost to Flash it is because of his trip to Europe that he didn't practise as much as him this season . He will stay the best zerg and arguably the best player for now . After a game that JD losses , he normaly comes at you even harder .Last season everyone took the first game from JD in the MSL but no one was even 1 game close to eliminate him thats the proof and that is why i will always vote for JD in series Bo5 or Bo3 . Just flash was lucky and skillful enough to take the series in OSL in what he didn't stand out to much with his mech build , but JD was overconfidant at one point and gave it pretty much away with the base and macro advantage he had , i'm sure that he won't make the same mistake . If not this MSL Jaedong will rape the rest of 2008 !!!
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yeah when u watch boxer play he's in a different field, completely serene and congratulating the opponent that beats him. TOtoally in another world.
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Aotearoa39261 Posts
On June 11 2008 18:17 raga4ka wrote:
Not bad i have to disagree with something JD doesn't lack mental state , because of his lost to Flash it is because of his trip to Europe that he didn't practise as much as him this season . He will stay the best zerg and arguably the best player for now . After a game that JD losses , he normaly comes at you even harder .Last season everyone took the first game from JD in the MSL but no one was even 1 game close to eliminate him thats the proof and that is why i will always vote for JD in series Bo5 or Bo3 . Just flash was lucky and skillful enough to take the series in OSL in what he didn't stand out to much with his mech build , but JD was overconfidant at one point and gave it pretty much away with the base and macro advantage he had , i'm sure that he won't make the same mistake . If not this MSL Jaedong will rape the rest of 2008 !!! While this is true, then why did Jaedong throw the game away? Was it really because he was overconfident? Or because he was taken back by being taken out what was familiar to him? While i don't argue that Jaedong is a superior player mechanically, Flash fucked around with his mind and forced Jaedong into an inferior mental position. From there he became frustrated with Flash - he just couldn't seem to crack him.
As i said in the article, the back and forth cheesing in the GSI (especially game 3) shows that Jaedong couldn't find a solution for the mech build and was frustrated. The frustration lead to mistakes and cheese - which never work well together. Jaedong could have won if he had played normally - like he does against any other player - but Flash has him beat on the mind game. Thats why Flash will always beat Jaedong from now on.
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Spenguin
Australia3316 Posts
Plexa has my <3 and cookies of cream.
On June 11 2008 01:17 HamerD wrote:
wow, I enjoyed reading this just as much as the FE, which of course was 10/10. Ofc plexa you should be going into journalism for a career. You are probably studying english or something. Your articles are involving and rousing, well written stuff.
Ps I would love if there were something about the 'flash's curse' thread that came around awhile ago. About how poor up-and-coming flash was throttled by top tier player after top tier player in tournaments, never getting a break. It's so compelling to think that actually, that stressful competition probably served to fire Flash up to reach for the top all the quicker; and get there.
I don't think he knows where New Zealand is 
MUCH LOVE PLEXA 10/10
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What makes you think he doesn't know where New Zealand is Spenguin? Am I missing something? Hasn't everybody by this time associated Kiwis with Hobbits and Wizards?
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Nice article, thanks Plexa and Nony
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Thx for the write up Plexa/Nony :D
Lee Young Ho fighting!!!
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On June 11 2008 20:53 Plexa wrote:Show nested quote +On June 11 2008 18:17 raga4ka wrote:
Not bad i have to disagree with something JD doesn't lack mental state , because of his lost to Flash it is because of his trip to Europe that he didn't practise as much as him this season . He will stay the best zerg and arguably the best player for now . After a game that JD losses , he normaly comes at you even harder .Last season everyone took the first game from JD in the MSL but no one was even 1 game close to eliminate him thats the proof and that is why i will always vote for JD in series Bo5 or Bo3 . Just flash was lucky and skillful enough to take the series in OSL in what he didn't stand out to much with his mech build , but JD was overconfidant at one point and gave it pretty much away with the base and macro advantage he had , i'm sure that he won't make the same mistake . If not this MSL Jaedong will rape the rest of 2008 !!! While this is true, then why did Jaedong throw the game away? Was it really because he was overconfident? Or because he was taken back by being taken out what was familiar to him? While i don't argue that Jaedong is a superior player mechanically, Flash fucked around with his mind and forced Jaedong into an inferior mental position. From there he became frustrated with Flash - he just couldn't seem to crack him. As i said in the article, the back and forth cheesing in the GSI (especially game 3) shows that Jaedong couldn't find a solution for the mech build and was frustrated. The frustration lead to mistakes and cheese - which never work well together. Jaedong could have won if he had played normally - like he does against any other player - but Flash has him beat on the mind game. Thats why Flash will always beat Jaedong from now on.
That's a pretty safe bet given the current map pool, and the fact that over time, all zergs, no matter how godly, eventually succumbs to terrans. Would you have said the same if the maps were more favourable to zergs though? I think the odds would change considerably if the current maps were switched with, say, Fantasy and the original Bluestorm. The only reason I rate Flash as the favourite against Jaedong right now is because Jaedong's pure mechanics (the best in the progaming scene in my opinion) alone is no longer enough to give the win against top terrans these days; not with this map pool.
Mind games do play a part, but I think you're underestimating the mental strength of Jaedong here. Jaedong must be one of the WORST player around when it comes to preparation for a BO3, BO5 series. This is enough to wreck anyone's series (as Stork collapsed when Flash got him starting off the wrong footing in the Bacchus OSL finals), but how many times have you seen Jaedong overcome this deficit? It's not just his superior mechanics, his mind control once the series gets going is really something to behold. I don't think Jaedong's the one to cower whatever mind games you think Flash is playing with him.
As for his rather lackluster defeat against Flash in the GSI, Jaedong at the end of last season was getting stretched too thin what with the hectic post season schedule not to mention the MSL, OSL and GSI games to take care of. Frustrated with having to prepare for the various styles Flash brings to his game with such demanding schedule, Jaedong probably brought to the table his poorly planned cheeses.
I don't expect such a repeat because the situation is far different now what with his role in the team being far smaller and his early exit from the OSL. If Jaedong loses a series to Flash this season, it won't be because Flash got to his mind, but because Flash plays better. The thing is, the only stage that the two of them can meet seems to be the MSL finals, the likelihood of the two of them playing a series in the recent future is pretty low. But if they DO meet, it will mean that Jaedong overcame Hwasin, and that'll mean he overcame the map pool. If the two are to meet, my bets will be on Jaedong, frustrated or not. Too bad Hwasin won't allow that to happen though.
Also, I think people are putting way too much focus on Flash overcoming his greatest opponents in Stork, Bisu and to a far lesser extent, Jaedong. They're not the players threatening Flash this season. They were the players who outperformed Flash last season, who are also (with the exception of Jaedong) really not anything of note this season. Players like Best, Lomo and Jangbi are probably more of a threat to Flash's current domination than the familiar faces of last season. In fact, I think Lomo and Best are Flash's biggest threats to his potential dual OSL/MSL triumph. The new wave of protoss and terran players this season could very well end up champions instead of the usual suspects that we predict. I don't see any zerg player winning anything. Zerg players became a non factor as far as champions are concerned the moment mappers turned their backs on them. I see Jaedong fighting on bravely, trying out new things, but really... it's looks like a lost cause. For the time being it looks like it'll be Flash and the new terran and protoss players battling it out for the top spot.
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Amazing article 100000/100000!
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Brilliant article! Thanks
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long and fucking epic, well deserved. lovely read. man, when flash dies, itll be weird.. im convinced that best > flash, 1-0 atm but that doesnt count. i love them both and hope they play again.
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Aotearoa39261 Posts
On June 12 2008 00:18 Letmelose wrote:Show nested quote +On June 11 2008 20:53 Plexa wrote:On June 11 2008 18:17 raga4ka wrote:
Not bad i have to disagree with something JD doesn't lack mental state , because of his lost to Flash it is because of his trip to Europe that he didn't practise as much as him this season . He will stay the best zerg and arguably the best player for now . After a game that JD losses , he normaly comes at you even harder .Last season everyone took the first game from JD in the MSL but no one was even 1 game close to eliminate him thats the proof and that is why i will always vote for JD in series Bo5 or Bo3 . Just flash was lucky and skillful enough to take the series in OSL in what he didn't stand out to much with his mech build , but JD was overconfidant at one point and gave it pretty much away with the base and macro advantage he had , i'm sure that he won't make the same mistake . If not this MSL Jaedong will rape the rest of 2008 !!! While this is true, then why did Jaedong throw the game away? Was it really because he was overconfident? Or because he was taken back by being taken out what was familiar to him? While i don't argue that Jaedong is a superior player mechanically, Flash fucked around with his mind and forced Jaedong into an inferior mental position. From there he became frustrated with Flash - he just couldn't seem to crack him. As i said in the article, the back and forth cheesing in the GSI (especially game 3) shows that Jaedong couldn't find a solution for the mech build and was frustrated. The frustration lead to mistakes and cheese - which never work well together. Jaedong could have won if he had played normally - like he does against any other player - but Flash has him beat on the mind game. Thats why Flash will always beat Jaedong from now on. That's a pretty safe bet given the current map pool, and the fact that over time, all zergs, no matter how godly, eventually succumbs to terrans. Would you have said the same if the maps were more favourable to zergs though? I think the odds would change considerably if the current maps were switched with, say, Fantasy and the original Bluestorm. The only reason I rate Flash as the favourite against Jaedong right now is because Jaedong's pure mechanics (the best in the progaming scene in my opinion) alone is no longer enough to give the win against top terrans these days; not with this map pool. I dont know whether its a map pool imbalance or not, but to me it certainly seems that the wider zerg community can't deal with Terrans. The game that epitomizes this imo is GGPlay vs Sea - GGplay was all over sea, but sea just fought back. Zerg have been relying on bare minimum defenses for awhile now - and Terran players are getting better at cutting through. I think its a general zerg weakness rather than a map imbalance (although they probably are playing some effect). There's no reason why these maps are so bad for Zerg either, they have plenty of nice features about them. There was always going to be this problem of "whos next after Jaedong?" and that could be Luxury, but i dont think he's going to cut it... none of the new Zergs spring to mind either.. except for perhaps Hyun?
Coming back to Jaedong specifically. Jaedong does have some rock fucking solid mechanics but mechanics don't always transfer into victory. I think you give Flash too little credit for his loss in the MSL; many times you sat there thinking "oh wow Jaedong is so done for this time" - especially the Loki game, rewatch that if you haven't already. Flash was playing 'perfect' TvZ and Jaedong was playing more perfect ZvT. Honestly, the separation between their skills was arbitrary. He won those series simply because he wanted the win more. Here i go again, Jaedong's superior mindset lead him to victory over Flash in the MSL. Flash knew that theres was no way he could beat him mechanically (and he does the mechanics perfectly like Jaedong) and thus set about changing the mental balance of the matchup. If the two met bo5 on the same maps as the MSL i'd put my money on Flash - simply because now when it comes to the crunch, Flash has the upper hand rather than Jaedong.
Mind games do play a part, but I think you're underestimating the mental strength of Jaedong here. Jaedong must be one of the WORST player around when it comes to preparation for a BO3, BO5 series. This is enough to wreck anyone's series (as Stork collapsed when Flash got him starting off the wrong footing in the Bacchus OSL finals), but how many times have you seen Jaedong overcome this deficit? It's not just his superior mechanics, his mind control once the series gets going is really something to behold. I don't think Jaedong's the one to cower whatever mind games you think Flash is playing with him. I dont know about the fact that Jaedong loses the first game and wins the rest. People have weird clicks. For example one of my good friends who i play chess with always waits 1minute before he makes his first move. However, personally i think that Jaedong can maintain a strong mindset throughout a whole series. Winning the first set can lead to a player being cocky (very common) and then losing the 2nd set brings them back down to Earth - but Jaedong then has the momentum. By keeping the constant mindset while his opponent fumbles about dealing with his own demons he can nearly always win a series. Bisu is different again, he has each set planned out perfectly - his biggest strength is his preparation. Each game has a highly refined and specific plan and if it doesn't go so well, doesn't matter, move onto the next set. While this is normal, Bisu takes it to the next level, and thats why he succeeded imo.
As for his rather lackluster defeat against Flash in the GSI, Jaedong at the end of last season was getting stretched too thin what with the hectic post season schedule not to mention the MSL, OSL and GSI games to take care of. Frustrated with having to prepare for the various styles Flash brings to his game with such demanding schedule, Jaedong probably brought to the table his poorly planned cheeses. Thats not to say Flash wasn't busy either? He was working to topple Bisu in the OSL semis (much more important btw) and Jaedong was working towards crushing um, god i can't remember -.-;! That in addition to training for the post season (one game) which was significantly later. Typically you don't see players cheese because they just haven't had the time to practice, its a calculated move made by the rest. I'll refer you to "Mind Games" by Rage which discusses this in great depth. I see the GSI as a series where Jaedong was desperate to overcome Flash by any means necessary, a way for him to vent his frustration. And well, he failed really. You are very well welcome to argue that the frustration was a culmination of events, however i would argue that within that myriad of different pressures, Flash was the largest pressure. By that i mean his demanding playstyle, and the fact that mech was so good on those maps and he had lost twice to the mech build - and he was yet to find a solution was the largest pressure acting on Jaedong and the driving force behind the GSI loss.
I don't expect such a repeat because the situation is far different now what with his role in the team being far smaller and his early exit from the OSL. If Jaedong loses a series to Flash this season, it won't be because Flash got to his mind, but because Flash plays better. The thing is, the only stage that the two of them can meet seems to be the MSL finals, the likelihood of the two of them playing a series in the recent future is pretty low. But if they DO meet, it will mean that Jaedong overcame Hwasin, and that'll mean he overcame the map pool. If the two are to meet, my bets will be on Jaedong, frustrated or not. Too bad Hwasin won't allow that to happen though. Fair enough, good comments. At least we agree that Hwasin will defeat Jaedong.
Also, I think people are putting way too much focus on Flash overcoming his greatest opponents in Stork, Bisu and to a far lesser extent, Jaedong. They're not the players threatening Flash this season. They were the players who outperformed Flash last season, who are also (with the exception of Jaedong) really not anything of note this season. Players like Best, Lomo and Jangbi are probably more of a threat to Flash's current domination than the familiar faces of last season. In fact, I think Lomo and Best are Flash's biggest threats to his potential dual OSL/MSL triumph. The new wave of protoss and terran players this season could very well end up champions instead of the usual suspects that we predict. I don't see any zerg player winning anything. Zerg players became a non factor as far as champions are concerned the moment mappers turned their backs on them. I see Jaedong fighting on bravely, trying out new things, but really... it's looks like a lost cause. For the time being it looks like it'll be Flash and the new terran and protoss players battling it out for the top spot. Seeing as all we can judge Flash on is what he has done, and not what he is about to do i don't see why this is an issue? The real test for Flash is obviously proving himself against the likes of Best, and then whoever crops up after that. But the fact that Bisu and Stork (and Jaedong to a lesser extent) have crumbled is a testament to Flash's assault on their mental state. Its actually really similar to the "iloveoov curse" which i discussed in "i loved victory pt2" iirc. Once a player was crushed by Oov - they slumped, and slumped terribly at that. Many players never returned to their peak condition ever again. Others, like boxer, fought his way back up against Oov. Flash is so much like oov in this way, but this time i beleive we can pinpoint why these greats are slumping after losing to Flash; for the reasons discussed in this article. Flash will keep winning for a while yet, regardless of what maps are thrown his way.
I really like the comments you're making, theyre very thought provoking so im eager to hear your response
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It took terran progamers nearly two years to fully equip themselves with the tools necessary to counter the four tools that were added to the zerg arsenal almost at the same time: of the mastery of 3 hatchery management, stacked mutalisk control and heavy defiler and nydus canal usage. These tools temporarily allowed the regular zerg players to be on an even footing with the terran gamers and for top zerg players to crush terran players of inferior skill with ease. Now it seems these mappers were extremely uncomfortable with the likes of Kwanro simply mutalisk harassing his opponents to death while they were just FINE with players like Boxer and Casy abusing their mnm control with zerg troops melting like butter.
Just as terran players are coming up with solutions for the zerg refinements with refinements of their own, we have overly ZvZ cautious mappers are saying, "You know what? I think mutalisk harassment is too overpowered these days. I'll just make it like so, and VOILA, no more mutalisk harass, no more buying time and no more free 3rd gas that comes with it as well!"
The sad thing about the progaming scene is, we take terran favouring maps for granted, and automatically despise any zerg favouring map in the slightest. So when we see a 5-1 record for terran on a particular map, we feel at ease. But as soon as zergs turn the tables, we see immediate changes to the map. It gets to a point where any map where zerg doesn't have a hard time against terran is a zerg favouring map. Why do we take it for granted that zerg suffers against terrans? Moreover, why do we take it for granted when we can balance things out with little things that favour the zerg? Well, the reason for that is probably because any map that evens out ZvT must come at the price of imbalancing PvZ (mineral count plays an important factor in both matchups). And protoss always have their whinning taken care of. There's a reason why TvT is the most played mirror, ZvZ is the least (still seems too much though for the regular fan), and why historically and currently, ZvT is the least balanced matchup.
Why whine about the maps now though? Yellow's been through worse. Island maps, no gas naturals and generally maps that wouldn't even allow a zerg to take his natural for free. Because I believe we reached the end of the road as far as evolution goes. Fast expansions for every single race. Zergs NEED free third gas against the fast expanding terran. We can't go back to the old ways and expect 2 hatchery lurker zergling to work. That's how Oov got his monstrous winning streak against zergs. When you have mappers are denying the only method zerg has of getting 3rd gas for free, you get stagnation of the entire race as a whole. Instead of a new Jaedong, we have promising zerg players forced to only play during teamplays because sending a promising terran or protoss player gives you a better chance of winning. We'll end up with teamplay zergs who can't ZvT for crap because it doesn't matter whether you're good at that matchup or not because people only want you to splatter into a pool of blood under the fire of marines.
Enough about the maps, I obviously think it's the only thing keeping Jaedong from being a serious force (as of now he's just a zerg, a very good one, the number one player of a race meant to lose). Give me any pool of maps that zergs have an even record with terrans, and I'm almost certain Jaedong will be the heavy favourite against Flash in a series whatever builds Flash brings into play. The game of Loki was really Flash losing his advantage not because he made any major mistakes but because Jaedong out-multitasked Flash to get himself back to the game once his Hive play kicked in. This game, and the match in Fantasy II certainly left the impression that Jaedong out muscles Flash when it comes to a pure multitasking game. Just like Flash's victories left the impression that Jaedong has trouble dealing with the wide range of strategies Flash utilizes. Could have it gone any other way? Of course. What if Flash had been a little more crisp with his army management? What if Jaedong bought more time to overpower Flash later on instead of engaging with Flash's army so carelessly when it he was mere inches from victory. After their three encounters, I was left with the impression that Jaedong could have won all three series under the right circumstances, but Flash's basic fundamentals seemed too,,, mortal compared to Jaedong to say the reverse. You can only put your opponent off his footing only so many times.
I can say for sure that Jaedong was the busiest player at the end of last season. Flash only had individual leagues to prepare for. Proleague practice schedules, especially one leading upto such important matches are nothing to snuff at. I remember noticing how unpracticed he was for the GSI even when taking into account that it was an "unofficial" tournament. Sure Jaedong wanted to win. But were his cheeses a carefully thought out blow like Flash's inch perfect mech play? I'm almost certain it wasn't. And when you fail to cheese as zerg, the punishment for failing and FAR more servere than it is for terrans. This might have been Jaedong playing into Flash's hands, but the circumstances were very harsh for Jaedong to simply label this as Jaedong mentally collapsing agaisnt Flash.
I think I drifted quite far from the original topic, and should get back to you on whether Flash's games against the likes of Stork and Jaedong took its toll on them this season. For Stork, it certainly looks like it although the accumulation of 2nd place finishes after performing so well throughout the season must have been quite exhausting. His shutout defeat against Flash might have been more of a final straw for him rather than Stork thinking he no longer could defeat Flash. For Jaedong, I'm pretty sure he's practicing hard to prove that it is he, not Flash, who is the number one player on the planet right now. Maps won't let him though. I think I mentioned players like Best and Lomo as an afterthought because people seem to be coming to this foregone conclusion that Flash conquered all and now all players are under his submission. I admit this has very little to do with the topic at hand. I tend to rant about things even if they have little in correlation with the original post... a bit habbit of mine.
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Jesus Christ I just spent half and hour writing about maps and how it hurts zergs when a simple "it's not Flash, but the maps that's hurting Jaedong right now" would have done it.
I basically agree that Flash's strength lies far beyond his fundementals of game, which are very impressive on their own. I guess I'm just taking the long winded way of saying "Jaedong not dead yet, wait until a better map pool comes out". I just hope he can keep his class until that day comes.
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Flash vs Jaedong is the rivalry that will define this generation of progaming
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We've heard quite a lot of backtracking recently about why big names were losing in the GOM Classic and why it doesn't matter. The players didn't give it as much consideration, it's not KeSPA officiated anyhow, etc. How much does that actually play into their practice time? I'm not sure.
I do find it funny that while excuses are made in this case, we still ride so heavily on the series in the GSI where Flash beat Jaedong 2-1. Ever since the power ranking put Flash over Jaedong in that month where they met in three different series, everyone has used the 'winning two series vs one' as the reasoning Flash was the best of the two. Well, just how much did the GSI matter to players, anyhow? Let's be reasonable, as the GSI had little to no preparation time given, even when compared to the Classic going on right now.
Personally, I think that assuming Flash demoralized Jaedong is very far from the truth. If anything, the ZvTs vs Ruby and Mind early in this PL season have done a lot more damage (and by this we're assuming a lot, since Jaedong seems stoic most of the time). If there were another zerg right now doing well (as there are many successful terran and protoss players right now), I think we could say Jaedong might be slumping. However, I'm inclined to agree with others who have said that most of the problems he's having right now are the same problems all zergs are having.
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Kyrgyz Republic1462 Posts
I'm curious as to what would happen if the current players were put on some older maps, like Gaema Gowon, Rush Hour, etc They should do it just for fun for some league.
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I completely agree with this article.
Flash amaaaaazong ability to resist to any form of harassement, even the most painfull and hardcore ones, his capacity to keep going when his opponent shows something scary like a bench of carriers reflects his mental strength.
If you look at Flash's face, you'll see that even when he is badly losing, not a muscle is moving. He also sit perfectly straight and is always relax... Look at savior when stuff is becoming difficult (which happen to everybody in almost every game), and you can see why he is slumping.
The Boxer case is a bit different imo. Boxer doesn't have anything to prove to anybody anymore. So, well, yeah, he can lose sometimes, he is more relac about that I guess.
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I Don't think that the maps are affecting zerg players THAT much, it's just that terran's are more prepared for it, and the zerg's don't seem up to the task of fighting back. Someone's gonna need to lead a revolution in ZvT play or something.
Also, i've been seeing that Jaedong's ZvT multitasking skills that everyone praises so much to just be not as good ever since he lost to Flash. You could totally see it in his losses vs Hwasin and Mind.
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Aotearoa39261 Posts
On June 12 2008 03:36 Letmelose wrote:
It took terran progamers nearly two years to fully equip themselves with the tools necessary to counter the four tools that were added to the zerg arsenal almost at the same time: of the mastery of 3 hatchery management, stacked mutalisk control and heavy defiler and nydus canal usage. These tools temporarily allowed the regular zerg players to be on an even footing with the terran gamers and for top zerg players to crush terran players of inferior skill with ease. Now it seems these mappers were extremely uncomfortable with the likes of Kwanro simply mutalisk harassing his opponents to death while they were just FINE with players like Boxer and Casy abusing their mnm control with zerg troops melting like butter. Yes it took Terran's about 1.5 years to come to grips to Savior's Zerg revolution, and i suppoer another half year to deal with Jaedong, but thats the nature of Starcraft! I dont want to go too far back, because my knowledge is shakey, but lets start with the dominance of oov who defined fast expansion Terran against Zerg. No Zerg's could beat him, 23-0 speaks for itself. The July revolutionized micro play with his famous mutalisk harass and zergling control. The balance fell from the Terran's favor into the Zergs. Then we had the duo of Gorush and July defining Zerg gameplay and ultimately a strong era for the Zergs. Then Nada came back, around YATGK MSL with his SK Terran strategy and was praised for "Perfect TvZ". Nada lead the way against Zerg and many people copied him and found similar success. Terran were now stronger than Zerg (on the whole). Then in Uzoo (the first game of Uzoo in fact) IPXZerg blasted out onto the scene by finding the first cure for SK Terran with heavy defiler usage to swarm/plague his way to victory. IPXZerg became Savior, and Savior defined an era of Zergs who had strong Hive tech oriented play. Towards the end of the era, Terrans were finding solutions to the Savior conundrum and Zergs were falling (savior didn't fall until GOMS2) and on the whole Terran was stronger than Zerg (this is roughly from Shinhan 3 through to early Daum). Then GGPlay and Jaedong lead another zerg revolution against Terran and marked a new era of Zerg dominance over terran, the ends of which we only just experienced.
All matchups undergo a 'ping pong' style of balance. I love PvT, and this is the best example of it happening. Although it does apply to TvZ - as i pointed out. PvZ... not so much; but it is still evident. Maps maybe a factor in this, but on the whole you can't discount the changing strategies employed by the Terran faction and the fact that thus far the Zerg haven't been finding answers for it.
Just as terran players are coming up with solutions for the zerg refinements with refinements of their own, we have overly ZvZ cautious mappers are saying, "You know what? I think mutalisk harassment is too overpowered these days. I'll just make it like so, and VOILA, no more mutalisk harass, no more buying time and no more free 3rd gas that comes with it as well!"
The sad thing about the progaming scene is, we take terran favouring maps for granted, and automatically despise any zerg favouring map in the slightest. So when we see a 5-1 record for terran on a particular map, we feel at ease. But as soon as zergs turn the tables, we see immediate changes to the map. It gets to a point where any map where zerg doesn't have a hard time against terran is a zerg favouring map. Why do we take it for granted that zerg suffers against terrans? Moreover, why do we take it for granted when we can balance things out with little things that favour the zerg? Well, the reason for that is probably because any map that evens out ZvT must come at the price of imbalancing PvZ (mineral count plays an important factor in both matchups). And protoss always have their whinning taken care of. There's a reason why TvT is the most played mirror, ZvZ is the least (still seems too much though for the regular fan), and why historically and currently, ZvT is the least balanced matchup. Let me bring up sound counter examples - Arcadia's 0-9 TvZ streak, Namja Iyagis 6-12 TvZ, Blue Storm 22-41, Fantasy's 6-13 - and yes there are counter examples to my counter examples. I dont think mappers 'dont care' about balancing TvZ, or that they only care about Terran balance, but its probably easier to create a T>Z map (would be my guess anyway). Again we come back to this idea - is it the maps, or just a phase of Zerg weakness? I'm tending towards the latter because to me those maps look half decent for Zerg - the problem must lie in the way that there is only one Zerg innovator right now, and thats Jaedong. Was Kwanro's loss to lomo because of the maps? lomo was a better player? Kwanro's style isn't as effective as it was a couple months ago - because Terrans have worked extensively to count it. So now we need to wait for a Zerg revolution to counter that (please be queens, please be queens..).
I dont think the Protoss whining has much effect on the mappers, and im sure that next season the maps will reflect changes which cater to the Zerg deficit at the moment.
Why whine about the maps now though? Yellow's been through worse. Island maps, no gas naturals and generally maps that wouldn't even allow a zerg to take his natural for free. Because I believe we reached the end of the road as far as evolution goes. Fast expansions for every single race. Zergs NEED free third gas against the fast expanding terran. We can't go back to the old ways and expect 2 hatchery lurker zergling to work. That's how Oov got his monstrous winning streak against zergs. When you have mappers are denying the only method zerg has of getting 3rd gas for free, you get stagnation of the entire race as a whole. Instead of a new Jaedong, we have promising zerg players forced to only play during teamplays because sending a promising terran or protoss player gives you a better chance of winning. We'll end up with teamplay zergs who can't ZvT for crap because it doesn't matter whether you're good at that matchup or not because people only want you to splatter into a pool of blood under the fire of marines. I disagree with you calling out oov like that. I think the reasons behind his success lie elsewhere, namely in the fact that he create a completely new style which was superior to Zergs of the day . They needed to regroup, and as discussed above July did find the cure for it (and went on a monstrous Z>T streak). Im reasonably certain that while Zergs don't see much playtime, players like Luxury, Yarnc, Hyun and Shark (amongst others like by.great) are still poised to strike at any moment. They have the abilities in 1v1 to win - as they've demonstrated this season. And funnily enough all three have a killer ZvT. A strong anti-Terran overtone seems to be coming through you must be a fairly patriotic Zerg haha but let me tell you that the majority of Korean gamers are Zerg (then T then P) which means that 'upsetting' the map balance against Zerg is angering the largest user base. Oh and most of those players cheer for the Zergs to win 
Enough about the maps, I obviously think it's the only thing keeping Jaedong from being a serious force (as of now he's just a zerg, a very good one, the number one player of a race meant to lose). Give me any pool of maps that zergs have an even record with terrans, and I'm almost certain Jaedong will be the heavy favourite against Flash in a series whatever builds Flash brings into play. The game of Loki was really Flash losing his advantage not because he made any major mistakes but because Jaedong out-multitasked Flash to get himself back to the game once his Hive play kicked in. This game, and the match in Fantasy II certainly left the impression that Jaedong out muscles Flash when it comes to a pure multitasking game. Just like Flash's victories left the impression that Jaedong has trouble dealing with the wide range of strategies Flash utilizes. Could have it gone any other way? Of course. What if Flash had been a little more crisp with his army management? What if Jaedong bought more time to overpower Flash later on instead of engaging with Flash's army so carelessly when it he was mere inches from victory. After their three encounters, I was left with the impression that Jaedong could have won all three series under the right circumstances, but Flash's basic fundamentals seemed too,,, mortal compared to Jaedong to say the reverse. You can only put your opponent off his footing only so many times. There was an excellent post at the start of this thread dealing with this issue of mechanics. To paraphrase, he simply said that while Nada [Jaedong] has the crisper mechanics, and impeccable multitasking, oov [Flash] attained better results. His mechanics weren't as clean ore precise as Nada [Jaedong] but he still managed to win. There is a clear distinction between being a winner and having great mechanics - and often the two dont equate. What i'm trying to say is that mechanics are the only factor involved in victory - and Flash knows how to win better than Jaedong does.
I can say for sure that Jaedong was the busiest player at the end of last season. Flash only had individual leagues to prepare for. Proleague practice schedules, especially one leading upto such important matches are nothing to snuff at. I remember noticing how unpracticed he was for the GSI even when taking into account that it was an "unofficial" tournament. Sure Jaedong wanted to win. But were his cheeses a carefully thought out blow like Flash's inch perfect mech play? I'm almost certain it wasn't. And when you fail to cheese as zerg, the punishment for failing and FAR more servere than it is for terrans. This might have been Jaedong playing into Flash's hands, but the circumstances were very harsh for Jaedong to simply label this as Jaedong mentally collapsing agaisnt Flash. Yes, but Jaedong did get eliminated from two of those competitions dramatically reducing the said workload. The GSI was only what, 2 weeks after the OSL? Jaedong would have practiced significantly more for the OSL correct? Jaedong still lost to Flash's calculated play in the OSL. GSI had no pressure of the OSL bearing down on him - and with the benefit of practicing intensely for 2 other series against him - i don't see why Jaedong couldn't have simply played a straight up macro game against him. While the GSI was an unofficial tournament, there was a large sum of money for first place - something which was very achievable for Jaedong given the field. Surely that would have motivated him on to try and beat Flash? When Savior was at his busiest he didn't cheese, he just played a straight up macro game and crushed the inferior beings. Just look at Superfight 5 for instance (the proleague one). Cheese isn't about a lack of practice anymore, its a calculated strategy to offset your opponent and ultimately win the series.
I think I drifted quite far from the original topic, and should get back to you on whether Flash's games against the likes of Stork and Jaedong took its toll on them this season. For Stork, it certainly looks like it although the accumulation of 2nd place finishes after performing so well throughout the season must have been quite exhausting. His shutout defeat against Flash might have been more of a final straw for him rather than Stork thinking he no longer could defeat Flash. For Jaedong, I'm pretty sure he's practicing hard to prove that it is he, not Flash, who is the number one player on the planet right now. Maps won't let him though. I think I mentioned players like Best and Lomo as an afterthought because people seem to be coming to this foregone conclusion that Flash conquered all and now all players are under his submission. I admit this has very little to do with the topic at hand. I tend to rant about things even if they have little in correlation with the original post... a bit habbit of mine.
Again, i really appreciate your comments, and they are very interesting - i hope other people are enjoying them as much as myself
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yeah I think its a load of crap when people say Jaedong hasnt declined since he faced flash. What is it, 2-6 vs terran in the last bit? Statistics dont lie. The 2nd best damn player in the game doesn't have bad luck, not to the extent where hes 2-6. Mind is not an amazing tvz player- I do think hes getting better, but hes not even close to one of the best, and that certainly does not excuse Jaedongs shitty play. As to Hwasin; yes Jaedong had a bad mouse in one of the matches, but he still lost the other, Ruby he went all in muta harass with low econ- stupid, he was trying to prove something. And so on, and so on.
To say that Jaedong has just has bad luck is naive, so is blaming the maps. Jaedong is losing because [at least in his zvt] hes lost something in him. I think this will spread, and Jaedong will do what savior did. Go fairly far in a league or two, get eliminated, and collapse entirely. Jaedong may be doing this right now against Hwasin, though he may last a little longer. Its not a question of if he collapses anymore, its a question of when.
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Aotearoa39261 Posts
On June 12 2008 12:15 ScarFace wrote:
yeah I think its a load of crap when people say Jaedong hasnt declined since he faced flash. What is it, 2-6 vs terran in the last bit? Statistics dont lie. The 2nd best damn player in the game doesn't have bad luck, not to the extent where hes 2-6. Mind is not an amazing tvz player- I do think hes getting better, but hes not even close to one of the best, and that certainly does not excuse Jaedongs shitty play. As to Hwasin; yes Jaedong had a bad mouse in one of the matches, but he still lost the other, Ruby he went all in muta harass with low econ- stupid, he was trying to prove something. And so on, and so on.
To say that Jaedong has just has bad luck is naive, so is blaming the maps. Jaedong is losing because [at least in his zvt] hes lost something in him. I think this will spread, and Jaedong will do what savior did. Go fairly far in a league or two, get eliminated, and collapse entirely. Jaedong may be doing this right now against Hwasin, though he may last a little longer. Its not a question of if he collapses anymore, its a question of when. Well said good sir, and i'd just like to point out this is exactly what happened to savior. (i think i did this in the article anyway). After losing a crushing series (or two in JD's case) Savior still looked Strong (ie beating Casy in Shinhan Masters) but he just wasn't the same anymore. He lost to FBH and Iris in the quarterfinals of MSL and OSL respectively, which basically dabbed out all hope. Jaedong was crushed by Casy and Backho of all people and he will lose in the quarters of this MSL just like savior did. Jaedong's coming down to earth - just wait and see.
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Osaka27139 Posts
Im just standing on the sideline, enjoying the conversation.
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I loved this read.
Would read again
GREAT JOB PLEXA! 
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I shed a little tear when Savior came up...or as real men would say, my eyeball started sweating
Good read good read
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It's true that in general terrans are better equiped to defeat zerg, but I believe the match up can be balanced with the right maps. It's not going to happen if you keep pressuring the zerg to change by forcing disadvantages onto them.
I mean little things like the placement of minerals, the amount of space behind the mineral line can really sway things. Have you noticed how many of these new maps, or the modified versions of the older versions have deliberately hampered any chances of mutalisk harassment being effective against terrans? The real fight between zergs and terrans begins once zergs reach their hive tech. After that, whoever multitasks better, controls their armies better and makes better decision wins. It's something Jaedong excels at.
The thing is, while terrans only need their natural to get the arsenal necessary to battle zergs, zergs need their 3rd gas to do the same. The current maps have allowed terrans to take their natural with no fear of mutalisk harassment, and the equation of 2 base terrans against 3 gas zergs has collapsed completely. It's not just the terran players adjusting their barrack numbers or turret placements, but mappers giving zerg the finger and we're left with "well... can't we try out queens?". Queens won't do jack. No innovations are going to help the zergs if mappers are stripping zergs of the bare necessities that makes ZvT playable on this level.
I just mentioned protoss because the mineral count in today's maps has been carefully managed so that protoss can take their natural against zergs without having to strain themselves. It's an equation that musn't be touched. Be it sair reaver, sair dt, sair speed zeals and numerous other variations that progamers experiment with. Protoss need that 2nd gas. One base play against zerg is not playable at this level (excluding cheese). Whatever the next evolution for PvZ may be, they need their 2nd gas. The sad thing is. The mineral count that makes PvZ playable has made ZvT hell with the mappers making things extra difficult for mutalisk harassment. The relatively high mineral count has made it impossible for zergs to do anything with these mineral line placement since terrans have learned to start off with mass barracks, marines and turrets. You give protoss players to necessities to start innovating by allowing their 2nd gas, but somehow zergs are supposed to innovate in order to earn their bare necessities against terrans these days.
It's frustrating because this has made it a suicide for any managers to send their zerg players. So we're left with a protoss and terran dominating the gaming scene with only a handful of top level zergs barely scraping on, and promising new zerg players left to play on team games. Count the number of 1v1 games in terrans and protoss players. Then count those involving zergs. It's frighteningly low. There's more to the eye than just map statistics. The cream of the crop for zerg are playing against token terran players and still can't come out with a decent score. Maybe I'm over reacting here, but there's the current map pool is playing more of a factor to Jaedong's current performance than many acknowledge. 40-25 in favour of terrans so far this season. I don't expect it to be any better.
I mentioned Oov as an example of what happens if zergs are left to play off 2 gas. July is as good as it gets when it comes to 2 hatchery management. He ultimately failed to overcome Oov's fast expo play. Savior didn't overcome Oov because he utilized new units, he overcame Oov because he created the manual that enabled zergs to handle the fast expoing terran. The terran manual hasn't changed a bit. It's the essentially unchanged except some refinements in details. With terrans adapting to Savior's brilliant plan, it was no longer possible to buy time for the 3rd gas that led to hive without refinements from zerg. GGPlay did that. Whereas Savior started to struggle to carry out his once trusty manual because of his lacking fundamentals, GGPlay maximized his mutalisk harassment to punish terrans that pushed out to pressure zerg without adequate preparations. Godly mutalisk harassment became the key step to buying the time required for zerg to be on an even footing with terrans.
Jaedong flourished under this setting. His mutalisk control was more than enough to buy time for his 3rd gas and hive tech. Once he got the tools necessary to battle the 2 gas terran, he brushed off challengers with his astonishing game play. I believe what really is punishing Jaedong right now is the fact that with these maps the manual zergs go by are no longer followable no matter how godly your mutalisk control is, all because mappers have said a big no no to mutalisk harassment. I'd like to see how protoss players would be doing against if mappers were to make it difficult as hell for zergs to get that early expansion.
I acknowledge that Flash has the mind that gives him the head start before the game even begins. Was it enough to overcome Jaedong? I disagree with you here that Jaedong's defeat in the GSI is a testiment of that. Jaedong ended the season with the best winning rate, most individual league titles and a proleague victory to boot. Losing the deciding game in the quarter finals of the OSL must have hurt, but I believe the GSI is too low in the hierachy of things to give us any indication of what is to come afterwards. I'd imagine Jaedong must have spent sleepless nights over his defeat in the OSL, but the GSI, for all its cash prizes, was an "unofficial tournament". His performance in that tournament, not just against Flash, was not the amazingly well prepared Jaedong we saw in the OSL/MSL or in the proleague.
His manager mentioned Jaedong had next to no time preparing for the individual leagues due to his postseason schedule. I don't think preparing for the GSI the top of the "to do list" for Jaedong at that time. We can't draw too much conclusions from it in my opinion. As for Savior, well, he is Savior. I think you're being a little unfair on Jaedong if looking human comared to Savior during his prime is a fault of his. Jaedong is almost nothing without his monstrous mechanics (this season's maps nullifies Jaedong before his mechanics can even kick in). Savior was left for dead during the end of his reign but still pulled through. In game 5 against Hwasin, for exmaple, Hwasin would have killed him if he tried to play his best normal game, but Savior tricked Hwasin into using too many scans to check for expansions knowing his "no expansion = no win" patterns. Hwasin lost the game without ever knowing Savior had no intentions of playing normally until the last minute. Jaedong doesn't have this magic (well not the this extent at least). I know that. But why should we expect miracles just because it happened before?
I think Savior lost his magic because his development stopped after his out of the world play in Shinhan S3. He thought it was over. It took him forever to realize why GGPlay was focusing so much on mutalisks. Terrans were reshaping their manual in order to combat his and by the time Savior started to concentrate on mutliask control, it became a mere necessity in order to keep him in the game. His mechanics were no longer good enough to give him the win against good terrans after his mutalisk play gave way to his hive tech, whereas before terrans didn't know what to do against his hive play.
I do agree the mindset plays a huge part. But I think the trends set by players and maps also play a large part in the progaming scene. It doesn't matter how much Jaedong overcomes Flash mentally, he won't win against him in this map pool. That's how large a factor I believe maps are playing right now. Not because of the slight imbalance we see, but because it is stripping zergs of their manual. New manual, or another method to get that 3rd gas in peace. I think Jaedong is experimenting with queens to buy time, but I think it's a futile experiment.
Ultimately, I think that I agree with you on many accounts, but the minor details we disagree on might be because (as you noticed) I root for the zerg. Keep up the great work, and please write one on Jaedong if he somehow overcomes this ordeal by a miracle (because that's what he needs).
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nice
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On June 11 2008 03:48 ScarFace wrote:
I love this well written article, but how is FBH one of the greats that propped up after the bonjwa interregnum? He had strong tvz and tvt [he was on quite a streak] but never really had strong tvp, he never really reached the level where you could give him even odds against any person in the game, or even close to it. His tvp doesn't allow it. Sure he was a strong competitor when he was at his height, but I don't think hes comparable to Hwasin or others- he simply was not well rounded enough.
Otherwise INCREDIBLY well written article. I have a question though; Best defeated Flash, probably because of Flash's mindset. He was overconfident. What do you think will happen when they meet again in the OSL? Will his lost to Best be detrimental to him, or will he bounce back? And how could he make such a large mistake, if he wins simply through smart play/champion mindset?
Edit: Just read that nony helped on this, good job m8.
We all admit how rotten FBH's TvP is but that doesn't mean we could deny his other matchups that make up for it. Lets compare him to Hwasin in terms of stats, hwasin's winning percentage is around 57% while FBH is at 55%, pretty close right? So taking into consideration how abysmal FBH's TvP percentage is, it just shows how strong his other matchups are. Showing his true skills with victories over Mind, Savior(2007), Hwasin, Sea and even GGPlay, its hard to doubt how capable he is. He sure isnt the next bonjwa, but he's a pretty solid terran in my book. If you are a T or Z player, then indeed FBH is a force to be reckoned with.
To Plexa and Nony: You guys are amazing, I couldn't agree more. Ever consider writing the power ranks once in a while?
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Aotearoa39261 Posts
Very very good post Letmelose and i agree with a lot of what you said. I'll stop harping on about the side issues and deal with the main thing you brought up - the map pool. Oh if only Daigomi were here..
Let's take a look at the maps from last season's proleauge. Out of the 6 1v1 maps, two of them were Zerg favored. Two Protoss favored, and two Terran favored. Which was a nice mix of everything - yet it didn't exactly allow zergs to thrive either? Zerg's still had a losing record despite 1/3 of the maps being zerg favored. Kwanro and co went to work on the Terran faction on Un'Goro with the 2base ultralisk build, which found relatively good success. And Blue Storm proved to be ridiculously easy to harass off. I had quite the debate with Daigomi about Blue Storm's edge, i maintained that it was not a imbalance rather a feature which Terran's couldn't deal with. Daigomi argued the converse. However, if you take one look at Kwanro vs Canata on Blue Storm it clearly shows the rediculous power of the mutalisk harass on that map. There was nothing Canata did wrong, yet he was crushed. The alterations on Blue Storm were a necessity to give Terran a fighting chance on the map. Because balance works both ways, the map was clearly and painfully Z>>T the changes have made the map more even imo.
Strangely enough, im going to have to draw a comparison between ZvT and PvT. Yes they are fundamentally different matchups but there are lots of similarities. Protoss, for about 1.5 years now, have been using Reaver harass in the same manner as mutalisk harass. Keeping the terran in his main, while killing SCVs and preventing expos and whatnot. Their function is exactly the same. Protoss players have been faced with the same challenges as Zerg players - getting that third base easily while somehow stalling the Terran's advance. And obviously, with chokes becoming harder to use for either form of harass both have had to switch it up. Protoss use the reaver as a means to break any form of early midgame push (see Stork vs Nada on python) rather than exclusively a tool to trap the Terran. Again there is this parallel to Zerg in that the Zerg use their mutalisks similarly. But one has to wonder, are the Zergs doing everything they can with their harass?
This is an interesting question as Zerg's are pushing hive tech sooner and sooner - to the point where Lurkers are skipped altogether (or delayed until defiler as per Jaedong). Formerly, they would rely exclusively on their harass to give them that time delay between Terran moving our and the hive-tech counter. Now that the harass has been, well, largely marginalized by the maps i think Zergs are not making the most of their mutalisks. Zerg's need to play a bit more like PvT and take that third (and fourth) base quick and macro in lurker/ling to start dealing with the first Terran push - using the Mutalisks to snipe valuable units. Thus far there is a lack of this on the proscene imo. Zergs are too readily switching up and leaving themselves vulnerable (seeing as Terrans are getting significantly better timing as of late). Fundamentally, current trends force Zerg players hang on by a thread while their defiler tech gets up. Obviously not many players can do this - it's a difficult thing. They should be changing the micro game into a macro oriented game - like Savior did following the July age with his three hatch revolution.
Jaedong and Luxury are brilliant Zerg players. There is no doubt at all there. But their influence on this generation has lead to an overall weakness in their playstyle. The acute timings and sensitivity in their ZvT style is something that is not easily replicated by other Zergs. Yet they are trying to do this and getting destroyed. JD revived the art of 2hatch; something which is counter productive to the Zerg race as a whole as they have reverted to a micro style over a macro style to combat the new found macro skills of the Terran. With a plethora of young Zerg's trying to imitate this highly volatile style it's no wonder too many lose it in the mid game - never getting to their desired late game. With the maps working against Jaedong's style, there is call for change. And that change has to be a more macro Zerg - analogous to PvT.
The thing about maps are that they have been designed to favor macro play, in an attempt to marginalize micro base play i presume. Ultimately, Zerg havens like Blue Storm and Fantasy which promote the micro style, were altered to fix the cliffs which allowed dazzling, yet imbalanced, mutalisk harass. In doing so the micro style of Jaedong was marginalized and the dynamic of the Zerg race was in turmoil as their was no immediate innovator to take over. Thus far there has been no innovator - just a bunch of hopefuls. To save the Zerg race we don't need to see a change in the maps, the Zergs need a revival. Jaedong's style is unique for Jaedong only - it doesn't suit the rest of the Zerg race; who need a more dependable style.
I still maintain that the idea that mindset is a dominant factor in the games. Jaedong simply could not pull off his style without confidence, else he would be crushed. But the maps and the trends in a race are always going to be oscillating back and forth between races. While the statement surrounding the mental state will always be true. There is a reason Savior overcame the imbalances in the Shinhan 3 map pool - that because he had a perfect mindset. Those "minor" points can be transcended by having a pristine mind as there is always a way to win. Like you pointed out, Savior defeated Hwasin by tricking him in a mental battle - not by playing superiorly. The mental state is just that important, its so strong that is transcends imbalances - and that creates champions.
Again, eager to hear your response
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Hmm great article but I think in 4 months time the "brilliant" Flash build will be as brilliant as FD or 2 fact. Fuck it. It's not unkillable. Stork was uninspired, complacent and just shitty. He didn't rise to the ocassion Flash placed to him. I have great faith that a new protoss will come and roll the shit out of him.
That being said, I love Flash. It's amazing to watch him play, he just always has more and more and more. I cant wait to see the rise of the next player to smash him. You know?
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Aotearoa39261 Posts
On June 12 2008 23:39 MiniRoman wrote:
Hmm great article but I think in 4 months time the "brilliant" Flash build will be as brilliant as FD or 2 fact. Fuck it. It's not unkillable. Stork was uninspired, complacent and just shitty. He didn't rise to the ocassion Flash placed to him. I have great faith that a new protoss will come and roll the shit out of him.
That being said, I love Flash. It's amazing to watch him play, he just always has more and more and more. I cant wait to see the rise of the next player to smash him. You know? Well whats to say that Flash won't rise to the occasion and counter the anti-flash build? creating the anti-anti-Flash build? I dno, but Flash gives me the impressive that i got from oov; just isn't giong to be going away any time soon.. he'll keep innovating until KTF wins the proleauge (which will be never fyi)
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I fully expect Flash to be that kind of champion and that is why I'm waiting for the next person to come kill Flash instead of waiting for Flash to lose (alla I want another Flash, not another Stork). I have a shit load of faith in the Korean progamers. It's been going up and up and up forever.
Plexa lemme ask you this question. I posted it into the ask Mingu thread and I'm curious to what an avid proscene follower thinks. How much further do you think this game can be pushed? Only sooooo many things can be innovated right? I have a feeling BW will always be my fav game of all time, I simply do.
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I guess I want a second superpower above a falling Jaedong. It'd be sweet if two superpowers rose at opposite sides of the brackets only to collide head on.
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The only map that zergs had a good time on last season was Bluestorm. Maps like Bluestorm and Fantasy are as good as it gets for zergs, so I'm not complaining about these maps. The thing is though, I wasn't particularly fond of the map pool last season either. Complain all you want about Bluestorm, you cannot deny the fact that all matchups were more or less playable on this map. Even non-zerg progamers commented that the better player wins on Bluestorm.
Zerg favouring maps are never really that tough on other races. Take maps like Geometry and Baekmagoji. If ZvT were played on these maps in a similar scale to Bluestorm (didn't happen because zergs didn't dare play on it) I'm certain the results would have been horrendous. Zerg favouring maps are tough on terrans, but terran favouring maps absolutely slaughter zergs. The map pool last season was far from being fair to all three races, it just happened to be better than this season. People are quick to notice any zerg favouring maps (because of the numbers that build up on it because it happens to be playable to other races as well), but are quick to overlook the maps that give zerg players next to no chance of winning.
I think you're perhaps underestimate the power of terrans when zergs are stripped of their basic necessities. Maps have allowed terrans to roam free with just a couple of well placed turrets to secure their bases. Third gas for zerg holds way more importance in the matchup against terrans than it does for protoss players. What the mappers stripped away here is the very foundations to the manual that Savior (and GGPlay later on) created. No mutalisk harassment. No buying time. No time means no game for zergs. I'm not asking for cliffs that allow zergs to mutalisk harasss his opponent to death here, I simply want terrans to stay put in their base while zergs take their 3rd gas or get punished for it. Current maps do not punish terrans for not staying in their base.
I'm no fan of zerg players mutalisk harassing his opponent to death, but how many times have we seen terran players fast tech to vultures and wraiths with the zerg opponent looking totally helpless? Kwanro focused heavily on killing the fast expanding Canata, and executed it with perfect micro. It left Canata helpless just like any other aggressive builds by any races would have supposing it was executed with such precision. We see players looking totally helpless when their opponents play that great. When terran players micro their troops perfectly to slaughter multiple groups of zerg troops with minimal losses, it's amazing micro, but when zergs do it, many people cry out imbalance. I say to such people - deal with it, if you can't stop great mutalisk micro, you deserve to lose because you played worse. Hwasin, for example, is excellent at minimizing losses to mutalisks raids. Canata didn't make any huge mistakes. But why do we have to take for granted that terrans must do something wrong in order to lose against zergs?
Jaedong also frequently played mutalisk heavy builds and killed many terran players who couldn't wasn't up to par with their mnm micro. Even a multitasking monster like Jaedong don't take his eyes off his mutalisks when investing so heavily on the harass. The workers he makes doesn't work, lurker upgrades and mutalisk production are done by hot keys. He knows by experience when the terran player is focusing on his troops and when he is doing something else. Hwasin lets his macro slip up a little if his zerg opponent starts to focus heavily on the mutalisk harass in order to minimize his losses. The players that lost to Jaedong purely by mutalisks deserved to lose because they thought a handful of mnm and turrets with minimal attention could stop Jaedong focusing his all on his mutalisks. No imbalance here.
I don't have a problem with the fact that mappers are have made it impossible for zergs to simply mutalisk raid his terran opponents to death (though I don't see what's wrong with punishing terran players of lesser skill). What I do have a problem with is when they take it a step further and make it impossible for zergs to keep terran in his base while he takes his 3rd gas in peace. This messes up the balance between the races so bad I don't think anyone's going to come up with a solution until the maps get fixed.
You can't force change on the players when you make it impossible for them to play the game on an even footing. Taking 3rd gas off zergs is like forcing protoss players to play off one base against zergs. Of course if a new textbook method of playing ZvT was possible to make I would have no problems. I'd welcome the change. But it is my belief that Stacraft has almost reached the end of its evolution when it comes to progaming level play. And the equations for each matchup have been figured out. It's fast expansions for every single race. You can't touch this. No natural means no game. Zergs need one more condition against terrans though. Third gas. Take their third gas away and you're left with fast expanding terrans versus fast expanding zergs who can't get 3rd gas. Brings memories of Oov versus zergs circa 2004. It ain't pretty. The only way zergs have figured out to get the 3rd gas up and running in time is to keep terrans in their base with their mutalisk harassment. When you're taking away this ability, you're basically sentencing death to the zergs.
Mindset creates champions, transcends imbalances, but all this means nothing when these imbalances have touched the most fundamental needs of your race.
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Aotearoa39261 Posts
On June 13 2008 00:44 MiniRoman wrote:Plexa lemme ask you this question. I posted it into the ask Mingu thread and I'm curious to what an avid proscene follower thinks. How much further do you think this game can be pushed? Only sooooo many things can be innovated right? I have a feeling BW will always be my fav game of all time, I simply do. When Nada brought out his SK Terran and demolished every fucking zerg on the planet we cried - 'oh, SK Terran is the perfect Terran, Zerg will never be able to overcome it'. Then Savior came with his talents and topped him. Whenever we become complacent and think there is nothing left to innovate, change or explore some gifted player comes along as shows us otherwise.
Given the infinite mapping possibilities and the fact that new things are still being invented, even today, there is no bound as to how far we can push this game.
@ Letmelose
I don't know if mappers are making it impossible for Zerg's to take a third gas. If you look at some of the maps today, the third gas is rather obscurely located. Take Fantasy, a Zerg paradise, where the third gas is either an island or a main; hardly an easy gas to take. Yet Zergs do well on it. Take Blue Storm, another map which doesn't have an easy to get 3rd Gas (12/6 or the corners - all rather exposed and separate from the main). Un'Goro has a really easy to get main which is nice and sheltered - yet 2 base Ultralisk was the most prominent build. Let's take some non-Zerg favored maps. Say, Zodiac, where the third (and forth) gases are relatively easy to attain (in comparison to the other maps) - there is a 66% Terran winrate on this map despite the favorable gas positioning. Not happy with Zodiac? Try Monty Hall, Katrina - hell what about Loki? All are Terran favored despite the really easy third gas.
Zergs tend to do better, statistically, on maps with 2 gases and an mineral only. Perhaps that's why Andromeda is a Zerg map (although Protoss are working hard to change that ) as more Zergs have been sent out than any other race. So while you argue that this third gas is such a necessity for the Zerg, the results just don't coincide with your argument. Perhaps it is not the third gas itself, rather the positioning of the third gas? An extra, easy, gas allows the Terran to produce more Science Vessels - which ultimately kill defilers by the handful. While a mineral only reduces the possible Vessel count by reducing the Gas supply. Zerg of course can expand anywhere they damn well please because of their fundamental design - meaning that even an obscure third gas is attainable. Of course, an out of the way base is difficult for a Terran to get at with a group of mutalisks roaming about (due to timing, and exposing himself) so perhaps that is what is problematic with the maps (the fact that most promote an easy third gas)?
Coming to this idea about Mutalisks harass to death, which is something i find particularly amusing and fun to watch. There are certain natural formations which allow Mutalisks to be twice as effective than on other formations. For example, take Xenosky's natural from Fantasy - the high ground behind the CC (and so close to the CC) obscures the line of site of MnM making mutalisks twice as hard to pick off and hit. To effectively counter this they need to float a build up to see - something which will either delay upgrades or halt production (ie lose lose situation). Those natural formations are simply imbalanced and need to be rectified. Blue Storm has such a natural formation - and needed to be fixed. There's nothing stopping Zerg from mutalisk harassing someone to death on a map thats not designed in this way (Kwanro vs Light @ Loki for instance) but it just means than an obvious imbalance is removed.
Keeping Terrans in their main is something which Mutalisks are designed to do. I think we both agree on this point. However map design and gas location is critical to determine how effective that is. How feasible is it for Mutalisk harass to prevent the Terran from taking a third gas on Katrina? Not very. Same goes for Zodiac, and just about any other easy third gas map. By increasing the proximity of the third base to the natural it decreases the value of mutalisk harass. While having distant thirds is beneficial to Zerg as the mutalisks are able to maneuver about the map with ease and speed and stop attempts at shutting down the third gas - while being able to harass the Terran; but i've already covered this point in detail.
Mindset creates champions, transcends imbalances, and there are always solutions to a difficult problem. JulyZerg countered the impossible macro of Oov. Savior showed us how to beat SK Terran. All on terrible Zerg maps. Remember, this is Starcraft - there is always more to find if you dig hard enough
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Plexa JD didn't cheese on Katrina and Baekmagoji because he was scared of the mech build maybe if it was in MSL or OSL i could assume that but GSI that is just wrong . He cheesed because Flash cheesed him the first game and JD is the kind of player that likes to give a taste of their own medicine . He couldn't care less for GSI it is because he is dependent on every other league there is there and it counts not just for money and fame but for the team too , so i think that the lost in GSI had nothing to do with his confidence .The influence that JD left on every other player and Flash as the Zerg to beat is huge because there were tons of players cheesing him and even now , but JD is not the type of player who cheeses when he feels he will lose to a mech build if not , unlike Flash who was known as the cheese it self .Asummeing that are you trying to tell me that JD 9 pooled Boxer , because he was not sure he could win otherways . I'm pretty sure he was doing it even for fun with both boxer and Flash for boxer it was intentional but againts Flash it was due him cheeseing on BS. Flash cheesed him because he can't beat him on BS , but JD did it not because he was scared of the mech build not in this tournament atleast but maybe it was for fun or just to give Flash a taste of his own medicine i'm almost 100 % sure about that .Compareing him to savior on the cheese topic ain't right .
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On June 11 2008 20:53 Plexa wrote:Show nested quote +On June 11 2008 18:17 raga4ka wrote:
Not bad i have to disagree with something JD doesn't lack mental state , because of his lost to Flash it is because of his trip to Europe that he didn't practise as much as him this season . He will stay the best zerg and arguably the best player for now . After a game that JD losses , he normaly comes at you even harder .Last season everyone took the first game from JD in the MSL but no one was even 1 game close to eliminate him thats the proof and that is why i will always vote for JD in series Bo5 or Bo3 . Just flash was lucky and skillful enough to take the series in OSL in what he didn't stand out to much with his mech build , but JD was overconfidant at one point and gave it pretty much away with the base and macro advantage he had , i'm sure that he won't make the same mistake . If not this MSL Jaedong will rape the rest of 2008 !!! While this is true, then why did Jaedong throw the game away? Was it really because he was overconfident? Or because he was taken back by being taken out what was familiar to him? While i don't argue that Jaedong is a superior player mechanically, Flash fucked around with his mind and forced Jaedong into an inferior mental position. From there he became frustrated with Flash - he just couldn't seem to crack him. As i said in the article, the back and forth cheesing in the GSI (especially game 3) shows that Jaedong couldn't find a solution for the mech build and was frustrated. The frustration lead to mistakes and cheese - which never work well together. Jaedong could have won if he had played normally - like he does against any other player - but Flash has him beat on the mind game. Thats why Flash will always beat Jaedong from now on.
As i said in my previous post is that JD didn't give a shit about GSI of all leagues and his cheese on the third game is not due to him beeing scared of the mech build , he can't know that it is even comeing just because there are 2 gasess in base how did you assume he is scared of the mech build even you don't know if Flash was going to mech . Based only on 1MSL game where he lost and has been loseing every single first game in a series and then always coming back to dominate it. Jaedong ain't the type of player who cheeses because he couldn't find a solution on 1 game he lost he actually didn't even practised vs mech build just because he lost 1 freaking game in MSL and owned the next 3.To him in GSI Flash was just another terran , he won't sunk to a level where he cheeses because he wasn't able to rape him 3 - 0 in MSL but just 3 - 1.And that is what i don't agree with the article .
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Aotearoa39261 Posts
It's 7am, so forgive me if i write something stupid :X
On June 13 2008 03:48 raga4ka wrote:
Plexa JD didn't cheese on Katrina and Baekmagoji because he was scared of the mech build maybe if it was in MSL or OSL i could assume that but GSI that is just wrong . He cheesed because Flash cheesed him the first game and JD is the kind of player that likes to give a taste of their own medicine . Okay, what evidence do you have to support that? I mean you could say that about Nada (like in his pre-interview before his match with TT - 'I'll show him how to cheese') but i've seen nothing to indicate that about Jaedong. I'd have to see some interviews or games to make me change my mind about it.
He couldn't care less for GSI it is because he is dependent on every other league there is there and it counts not just for money and fame but for the team too Rather true - but remember that he just out to Flash in OSL - reducing one avenue of revenue. Being the one of the only Lecaf players in the GSI surely he would want to do well to create a good name for the team. After all sponsors love exposure - it's not like he's going to come out and play sub-par shitty games just because the tournament doesn't matter. Just because the tournament was 'unofficial' doesn't make it any less of a big tournament. There was enough $$ there to keep gamers interested and imo he wanted to win. How hard he wanted to win may be questioned however.
... so i think that the lost in GSI had nothing to do with his confidence. Let's assume that LJD is the kind of player who does like to give a player a taste of his own medicine. Obviously, coming off a quarter final loss in the OSL - Jaedong would want to revenge that right? Give Flash a taste of his own medicine? The only difference between the GSI series and the MSL series is the mindset of each player. Their skills had not deteriorated at all, but Flash held the mental high ground and ultimately that spurred him onto victory. Whether or not Jaedong was confident or not doesn't really matter, the point is the Flash has a stronger mental state than Jaedong - which is a comparative term. Thus it doesn't mean that Jaedong was metnally weak, just that Flash was stronger.
The influence that JD left on every other player and Flash as the Zerg to beat is huge because there were tons of players cheesing him and even now, I dno, i can only name Flash and Backho who authentically cheesed him, Flash and Casy used creative non-standard builds. But yes, test of a true champion is his cheese resistivity.
..but JD is not the type of player who cheeses when he feels he will lose to a mech build if not , unlike Flash who was known as the cheese it self .Asummeing that are you trying to tell me that JD 9 pooled Boxer , because he was not sure he could win otherways . I disagree there. Jaedong used a build which increased his winning chances the most. Knowing that Boxer would almost invariable FE on Katrina, 9 pool is a pretty sound choice to get an easy win. He knows he can beat him in a straight up game, but after evaluating all the different strategies he came to the conclusion that 9pool speed was the strongest option. And hey, it was. "Mind Games" is a brilliant article on the notion of cheesing, and i strongly recommend it if you haven't read it already.
I'm pretty sure he was doing it even for fun with both boxer and Flash for boxer it was intentional but againts Flash it was due him cheeseing on BS. Flash cheesed him because he can't beat him on BS , but JD did it not because he was scared of the mech build not in this tournament atleast but maybe it was for fun or just to give Flash a taste of his own medicine i'm almost 100 % sure about that . Like i said before, Jaedong chose his builds so that he would maximize his chances to win against Flash - just as Flash did for the same series. Knowing that Flash would play FE and Mech Jaedong could safely assume that some kind of cheese rush would work - and hey! it did. I dont know if he was scared of the mech build, although he must have realized he had a much better chance of winning by exploiting the standard play of Flash on the map. Against with Baek, a similar thought process must have gone through his mind. Flash however, pulled through with some stunning defensive work. The moment you have Jaedong doubting his skill and thinking he's got a better chance using a risky all in build then you know his mental state has been undermined. If Flash had lost to Jaedong in the OSL i assure you than Jaedong would have crushed him here as well. It all comes down to mind games..
Compareing him to savior on the cheese topic ain't right . I think its a valid comparison on the grounds presented in "Mind Games"
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On June 13 2008 04:08 Plexa wrote:It's 7am, so forgive me if i write something stupid :X Show nested quote +On June 13 2008 03:48 raga4ka wrote:
Plexa JD didn't cheese on Katrina and Baekmagoji because he was scared of the mech build maybe if it was in MSL or OSL i could assume that but GSI that is just wrong . He cheesed because Flash cheesed him the first game and JD is the kind of player that likes to give a taste of their own medicine . Okay, what evidence do you have to support that? I mean you could say that about Nada (like in his pre-interview before his match with TT - 'I'll show him how to cheese') but i've seen nothing to indicate that about Jaedong. I'd have to see some interviews or games to make me change my mind about it. Show nested quote +He couldn't care less for GSI it is because he is dependent on every other league there is there and it counts not just for money and fame but for the team too Rather true - but remember that he just out to Flash in OSL - reducing one avenue of revenue. Being the one of the only Lecaf players in the GSI surely he would want to do well to create a good name for the team. After all sponsors love exposure - it's not like he's going to come out and play sub-par shitty games just because the tournament doesn't matter. Just because the tournament was 'unofficial' doesn't make it any less of a big tournament. There was enough $$ there to keep gamers interested and imo he wanted to win. How hard he wanted to win may be questioned however. Let's assume that LJD is the kind of player who does like to give a player a taste of his own medicine. Obviously, coming off a quarter final loss in the OSL - Jaedong would want to revenge that right? Give Flash a taste of his own medicine? The only difference between the GSI series and the MSL series is the mindset of each player. Their skills had not deteriorated at all, but Flash held the mental high ground and ultimately that spurred him onto victory. Whether or not Jaedong was confident or not doesn't really matter, the point is the Flash has a stronger mental state than Jaedong - which is a comparative term. Thus it doesn't mean that Jaedong was metnally weak, just that Flash was stronger. Show nested quote +The influence that JD left on every other player and Flash as the Zerg to beat is huge because there were tons of players cheesing him and even now, I dno, i can only name Flash and Backho who authentically cheesed him, Flash and Casy used creative non-standard builds. But yes, test of a true champion is his cheese resistivity. Show nested quote +..but JD is not the type of player who cheeses when he feels he will lose to a mech build if not , unlike Flash who was known as the cheese it self .Asummeing that are you trying to tell me that JD 9 pooled Boxer , because he was not sure he could win otherways . I disagree there. Jaedong used a build which increased his winning chances the most. Knowing that Boxer would almost invariable FE on Katrina, 9 pool is a pretty sound choice to get an easy win. He knows he can beat him in a straight up game, but after evaluating all the different strategies he came to the conclusion that 9pool speed was the strongest option. And hey, it was. "Mind Games" is a brilliant article on the notion of cheesing, and i strongly recommend it if you haven't read it already. Show nested quote +I'm pretty sure he was doing it even for fun with both boxer and Flash for boxer it was intentional but againts Flash it was due him cheeseing on BS. Flash cheesed him because he can't beat him on BS , but JD did it not because he was scared of the mech build not in this tournament atleast but maybe it was for fun or just to give Flash a taste of his own medicine i'm almost 100 % sure about that . Like i said before, Jaedong chose his builds so that he would maximize his chances to win against Flash - just as Flash did for the same series. Knowing that Flash would play FE and Mech Jaedong could safely assume that some kind of cheese rush would work - and hey! it did. I dont know if he was scared of the mech build, although he must have realized he had a much better chance of winning by exploiting the standard play of Flash on the map. Against with Baek, a similar thought process must have gone through his mind. Flash however, pulled through with some stunning defensive work. The moment you have Jaedong doubting his skill and thinking he's got a better chance using a risky all in build then you know his mental state has been undermined. If Flash had lost to Jaedong in the OSL i assure you than Jaedong would have crushed him here as well. It all comes down to mind games.. I think its a valid comparison on the grounds presented in "Mind Games"
Aham first JD played Flash 2/3 and 3/3 game in OSL after GSI so your logic fails and he didn't cheese him there . Second why should he cheese flash because he didn't find a solution to one game in MSL and even not knowing that it is comeing based only on 1 game in MSL . No one but Flash himself knew if he was going mech in GSI it was an invitational and just by that i'm 100 % sure that JD cheesed with not a single thought of mech build or Flash , but more about the thought that he was being cheesed himself on Bluestorm. And when he cheesed Boxer he actually lowered his chances of beating him because a cheese can always be defend if scouted. He actually got lucky that was not scouted and was definitely not done to max out his chanses to win JD could have killed Boxer back then with just muta harras.Look how he demolishes cheese in msl done by Lucifer now and Flash's cheese in the final game last MSL you just can't compare MSL/OSL to GSI .Bisu lost shit load of games in GSI and was not playing well but in OSL he was at 100% .Or are you telling me that JD cheesed flash just because flash was up 1 game in OSL NOT ELIMINATED FROM THERE and that he lost 1 game to him in MSL ??????????????You can't say that a lost to Flash killed his confidance he beat him in MSL , if it happens like that then he would be lone gone after his Bo5 with the rock . And what happen after that series he was not ever beaten in a BO5 series not by Toss not by Terran not by zerg and lost a single Bo3 in OSL and not so important Bo3 in GSI .Thats why i think that when JD losses he rapes you even harder and can't be compared to saviors scenario with FBH .
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Jaedong fanboi's FTW. Let's see your savior (no pun intended) prove Plexa wrong. I for one think he's right on the money.
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United States1654 Posts
On June 11 2008 20:53 Plexa wrote:
As i said in the article, the back and forth cheesing in the GSI (especially game 3) shows that Jaedong couldn't find a solution for the mech build and was frustrated. The frustration lead to mistakes and cheese - which never work well together. Jaedong could have won if he had played normally - like he does against any other player - but Flash has him beat on the mind game. Thats why Flash will always beat Jaedong from now on.
Baekmagoji is so heavily imbalanced that it was pretty much do or die for Jaedong no matter what he did. If he couldn't defeat Flash early on, he would have been smashed anyway, so he chose to cheese because of it. Baekmagoji is 11-3 in favor of Terran, with the only Terran losses being UpMagic and Hery, neither of which have a strong TvZ.
Also, some stats for the map pool that Jaedong will face Hwasin on:
Tiamat: 3-0 TvZ
Colosseum: 5-1 TvZ
Athena: 2-1 TvZ
Othello: 11-8 TvZ
Based on the map statistics, Hwasin is pretty much already guaranteed a 2-0 lead before the games even start (3-2 if they get to game 5). Similar to Baekmagoji, if Jaedong can't find a way to win with standard play, he'll resort to cheese.
Then why did Savior dominate on Terran favored maps in his OSL run without cheese you ask? Isn't Jaedong supposed to be the "Heir Apparent", to carry on the Zerg race? I don't think it was all about mindset (though it certainly played a major role), but Savior dominated because he was new, he brought something new to the stagnating Zerg race. Terrans had to adapt, couldn't adapt, and were unable to find a solution to his management, play, and game sense. But Jaedong doesn't have this luxury. He doesn't have anything new or revolutionary to bring to the Zerg table. He doesn't have anything new or revolutionary that will throw Terrans off their game- Terrans have seen the metagame ZvT that Savior created hundreds, if not thousands of times. All Jaedong has is his micro and mechanics, and a rusty worn copy of Savior's ZvT manual.
Anyway, nice write-up Plexa! I just wanted to chime in my thoughts on maps and the stagnation of the Zerg.
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I still think that the supposed map imbalance that we see in the statistic's of today's maps is more about the zergs just being outplayed by the terrans. It's not cause of the maps here folks.
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Aotearoa39261 Posts
On June 13 2008 04:22 raga4ka wrote:Show nested quote +On June 13 2008 04:08 Plexa wrote:It's 7am, so forgive me if i write something stupid :X On June 13 2008 03:48 raga4ka wrote:
Plexa JD didn't cheese on Katrina and Baekmagoji because he was scared of the mech build maybe if it was in MSL or OSL i could assume that but GSI that is just wrong . He cheesed because Flash cheesed him the first game and JD is the kind of player that likes to give a taste of their own medicine . Okay, what evidence do you have to support that? I mean you could say that about Nada (like in his pre-interview before his match with TT - 'I'll show him how to cheese') but i've seen nothing to indicate that about Jaedong. I'd have to see some interviews or games to make me change my mind about it. He couldn't care less for GSI it is because he is dependent on every other league there is there and it counts not just for money and fame but for the team too Rather true - but remember that he just out to Flash in OSL - reducing one avenue of revenue. Being the one of the only Lecaf players in the GSI surely he would want to do well to create a good name for the team. After all sponsors love exposure - it's not like he's going to come out and play sub-par shitty games just because the tournament doesn't matter. Just because the tournament was 'unofficial' doesn't make it any less of a big tournament. There was enough $$ there to keep gamers interested and imo he wanted to win. How hard he wanted to win may be questioned however. ... so i think that the lost in GSI had nothing to do with his confidence. Let's assume that LJD is the kind of player who does like to give a player a taste of his own medicine. Obviously, coming off a quarter final loss in the OSL - Jaedong would want to revenge that right? Give Flash a taste of his own medicine? The only difference between the GSI series and the MSL series is the mindset of each player. Their skills had not deteriorated at all, but Flash held the mental high ground and ultimately that spurred him onto victory. Whether or not Jaedong was confident or not doesn't really matter, the point is the Flash has a stronger mental state than Jaedong - which is a comparative term. Thus it doesn't mean that Jaedong was metnally weak, just that Flash was stronger. The influence that JD left on every other player and Flash as the Zerg to beat is huge because there were tons of players cheesing him and even now, I dno, i can only name Flash and Backho who authentically cheesed him, Flash and Casy used creative non-standard builds. But yes, test of a true champion is his cheese resistivity. ..but JD is not the type of player who cheeses when he feels he will lose to a mech build if not , unlike Flash who was known as the cheese it self .Asummeing that are you trying to tell me that JD 9 pooled Boxer , because he was not sure he could win otherways . I disagree there. Jaedong used a build which increased his winning chances the most. Knowing that Boxer would almost invariable FE on Katrina, 9 pool is a pretty sound choice to get an easy win. He knows he can beat him in a straight up game, but after evaluating all the different strategies he came to the conclusion that 9pool speed was the strongest option. And hey, it was. "Mind Games" is a brilliant article on the notion of cheesing, and i strongly recommend it if you haven't read it already. I'm pretty sure he was doing it even for fun with both boxer and Flash for boxer it was intentional but againts Flash it was due him cheeseing on BS. Flash cheesed him because he can't beat him on BS , but JD did it not because he was scared of the mech build not in this tournament atleast but maybe it was for fun or just to give Flash a taste of his own medicine i'm almost 100 % sure about that . Like i said before, Jaedong chose his builds so that he would maximize his chances to win against Flash - just as Flash did for the same series. Knowing that Flash would play FE and Mech Jaedong could safely assume that some kind of cheese rush would work - and hey! it did. I dont know if he was scared of the mech build, although he must have realized he had a much better chance of winning by exploiting the standard play of Flash on the map. Against with Baek, a similar thought process must have gone through his mind. Flash however, pulled through with some stunning defensive work. The moment you have Jaedong doubting his skill and thinking he's got a better chance using a risky all in build then you know his mental state has been undermined. If Flash had lost to Jaedong in the OSL i assure you than Jaedong would have crushed him here as well. It all comes down to mind games.. Compareing him to savior on the cheese topic ain't right . I think its a valid comparison on the grounds presented in "Mind Games" Aham first JD played Flash 2/3 and 3/3 game in OSL after GSI so your logic fails and he didn't cheese him there . Oh? Really?
http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/games/?tabulator_search=jaedong flash&auto_redirect=1
OSL was played on the 22nd GSI on the 25th - my logic stands Second why should he cheese flash because he didn't find a solution to one game in MSL and even not knowing that it is comeing based only on 1 game in MSL . No one but Flash himself knew if he was going mech in GSI it was an invitational and just by that i'm 100 % sure that JD cheesed with not a single thought of mech build or Flash , but more about the thought that he was being cheesed himself on Bluestorm. As I've already established through a simple TLPD search, there was three days between OSL and GSI - obviously not enough time for him to come up with a solution. I didn't realize how close the two series were but now i do, and it actually strengthens my argument. And when he cheesed Boxer he actually lowered his chances of beating him because a cheese can always be defend if scouted. He actually got lucky that was not scouted and was definitely not done to max out his chanses to win JD could have killed Boxer back then with just muta harras. Yes, but there was a 99% probability that Boxer would 14CC, and why not capitalize on that like a smart player? And thats what Jaedong did.Look how he demolishes cheese in msl done by Lucifer now and Flash's cheese in the final game last MSL you just can't compare MSL/OSL to GSI . Well i suppose after being cheesed, and losing so much because of it, he had to figure out how to stop it eventually?! But in all seriousness the Troy cheese was brilliant - if you haven't watched it recently go rewatch it, it was pure genius. Far superior to that of the MSL cheese imo. But this point is rather superfluous to the whole argument. Bisu lost shit load of games in GSI and was not playing well but in OSL he was at 100% . Nope i disagree with you there. Bisu only just limped through to the Ro8 and then Much played like a chump and was eliminated in two <10 min games. Hardly evidence to suggest Bisu was playing at his peak. The games against Flash were nice though, i'll give you that - but he still lost 1-3 which is a sad scoreline. Or are you telling me that JD cheesed flash just because flash was up 1 game in OSL NOT ELIMINATED FROM THERE and that he lost 1 game to him in MSL ?????????????? Again, as established by a TLPD search this is factually wrong- the OSL series had been played in its entiretyYou can't say that a lost to Flash killed his confidance he beat him in MSL , if it happens like that then he would be lone gone after his Bo5 with the rock . Jaedong was still on the rise then, with the mindset of a challenger - losing a Bo5 to Rock isn't that bad anyway, you can still tear through some chumps in ODT... thats hardly a mental state crushing incident. Although a weaker player would simply fall by the way side, but obviously Jaedong is a champion and small things like that don't phase him.And what happen after that series he was not ever beaten in a BO5 series not by Toss not by Terran not by zerg and lost a single Bo3 in OSL and not so important Bo3 in GSI .Thats why i think that when JD losses he rapes you even harder and can't be compared to saviors scenario with FBH . Again thats based on the premise that the OSL series hadn't been fully played out - which is wrong. And yes, we can't compare Jaedong to Savior/FBH yet - just wait until Jaedong loses the last set; then we'll talk.
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Interesting article... still don't fully grasp what all the mysterious "mental state" encompasses but I fault myself for that. It seems like in any competitive venture the distinguishing mark of a champion is a combination of flawless fundamentals and the ability to learn and improve when they lose, rather than get discouraged. The latter is a mysterious quality, can it be learned and practiced or are some people just born with that mindset? I'm a person that takes losses hard so I doubt I could ever rise to the very peak of any sort of competition, because the road there is paved with lots of loss for sure. I guess time will tell if Flash can weather his losses and continue the reign of dominance. All I know is it's pretty fun watching him now... seems to have so few exploitable weaknesses.
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Aotearoa39261 Posts
On June 13 2008 16:18 yoshtodd wrote:
Interesting article... still don't fully grasp what all the mysterious "mental state" encompasses but I fault myself for that. It seems like in any competitive venture the distinguishing mark of a champion is a combination of flawless fundamentals and the ability to learn and improve when they lose, rather than get discouraged. The latter is a mysterious quality, can it be learned and practiced or are some people just born with that mindset? I'm a person that takes losses hard so I doubt I could ever rise to the very peak of any sort of competition, because the road there is paved with lots of loss for sure. I guess time will tell if Flash can weather his losses and continue the reign of dominance. All I know is it's pretty fun watching him now... seems to have so few exploitable weaknesses. It's not your fault if you don't understand the concept, it's my fault for not explaining it better in the article . In essence the "mental state" is the state of mind of the player, if that makes any more sense. It is what is running through the players mind at any given point during a match/series. This incorporates a vast section of things, like momentum of a player, the champions mindset vs the challengers midset and things like that. It also incorporates belief in ones self (which is lacking atm from a number gamers) and belief and confidence in your abilities. The easiest one for someone to target, and disrupt, is the belief in yourself. In particular, Flash does this well. If you still need clarification say so
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On June 13 2008 12:12 Plexa wrote:Show nested quote +On June 13 2008 04:22 raga4ka wrote:On June 13 2008 04:08 Plexa wrote:It's 7am, so forgive me if i write something stupid :X On June 13 2008 03:48 raga4ka wrote:
Plexa JD didn't cheese on Katrina and Baekmagoji because he was scared of the mech build maybe if it was in MSL or OSL i could assume that but GSI that is just wrong . He cheesed because Flash cheesed him the first game and JD is the kind of player that likes to give a taste of their own medicine . Okay, what evidence do you have to support that? I mean you could say that about Nada (like in his pre-interview before his match with TT - 'I'll show him how to cheese') but i've seen nothing to indicate that about Jaedong. I'd have to see some interviews or games to make me change my mind about it. He couldn't care less for GSI it is because he is dependent on every other league there is there and it counts not just for money and fame but for the team too Rather true - but remember that he just out to Flash in OSL - reducing one avenue of revenue. Being the one of the only Lecaf players in the GSI surely he would want to do well to create a good name for the team. After all sponsors love exposure - it's not like he's going to come out and play sub-par shitty games just because the tournament doesn't matter. Just because the tournament was 'unofficial' doesn't make it any less of a big tournament. There was enough $$ there to keep gamers interested and imo he wanted to win. How hard he wanted to win may be questioned however. ... so i think that the lost in GSI had nothing to do with his confidence. Let's assume that LJD is the kind of player who does like to give a player a taste of his own medicine. Obviously, coming off a quarter final loss in the OSL - Jaedong would want to revenge that right? Give Flash a taste of his own medicine? The only difference between the GSI series and the MSL series is the mindset of each player. Their skills had not deteriorated at all, but Flash held the mental high ground and ultimately that spurred him onto victory. Whether or not Jaedong was confident or not doesn't really matter, the point is the Flash has a stronger mental state than Jaedong - which is a comparative term. Thus it doesn't mean that Jaedong was metnally weak, just that Flash was stronger. The influence that JD left on every other player and Flash as the Zerg to beat is huge because there were tons of players cheesing him and even now, I dno, i can only name Flash and Backho who authentically cheesed him, Flash and Casy used creative non-standard builds. But yes, test of a true champion is his cheese resistivity. ..but JD is not the type of player who cheeses when he feels he will lose to a mech build if not , unlike Flash who was known as the cheese it self .Asummeing that are you trying to tell me that JD 9 pooled Boxer , because he was not sure he could win otherways . I disagree there. Jaedong used a build which increased his winning chances the most. Knowing that Boxer would almost invariable FE on Katrina, 9 pool is a pretty sound choice to get an easy win. He knows he can beat him in a straight up game, but after evaluating all the different strategies he came to the conclusion that 9pool speed was the strongest option. And hey, it was. "Mind Games" is a brilliant article on the notion of cheesing, and i strongly recommend it if you haven't read it already. I'm pretty sure he was doing it even for fun with both boxer and Flash for boxer it was intentional but againts Flash it was due him cheeseing on BS. Flash cheesed him because he can't beat him on BS , but JD did it not because he was scared of the mech build not in this tournament atleast but maybe it was for fun or just to give Flash a taste of his own medicine i'm almost 100 % sure about that . Like i said before, Jaedong chose his builds so that he would maximize his chances to win against Flash - just as Flash did for the same series. Knowing that Flash would play FE and Mech Jaedong could safely assume that some kind of cheese rush would work - and hey! it did. I dont know if he was scared of the mech build, although he must have realized he had a much better chance of winning by exploiting the standard play of Flash on the map. Against with Baek, a similar thought process must have gone through his mind. Flash however, pulled through with some stunning defensive work. The moment you have Jaedong doubting his skill and thinking he's got a better chance using a risky all in build then you know his mental state has been undermined. If Flash had lost to Jaedong in the OSL i assure you than Jaedong would have crushed him here as well. It all comes down to mind games.. Compareing him to savior on the cheese topic ain't right . I think its a valid comparison on the grounds presented in "Mind Games" Aham first JD played Flash 2/3 and 3/3 game in OSL after GSI so your logic fails and he didn't cheese him there . Oh? Really? http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/games/?tabulator_search=jaedong flash&auto_redirect=1OSL was played on the 22nd GSI on the 25th - my logic stands Show nested quote + Second why should he cheese flash because he didn't find a solution to one game in MSL and even not knowing that it is comeing based only on 1 game in MSL . No one but Flash himself knew if he was going mech in GSI it was an invitational and just by that i'm 100 % sure that JD cheesed with not a single thought of mech build or Flash , but more about the thought that he was being cheesed himself on Bluestorm. As I've already established through a simple TLPD search, there was three days between OSL and GSI - obviously not enough time for him to come up with a solution. I didn't realize how close the two series were but now i do, and it actually strengthens my argument. Show nested quote +And when he cheesed Boxer he actually lowered his chances of beating him because a cheese can always be defend if scouted. He actually got lucky that was not scouted and was definitely not done to max out his chanses to win JD could have killed Boxer back then with just muta harras. Yes, but there was a 99% probability that Boxer would 14CC, and why not capitalize on that like a smart player? And thats what Jaedong did. Show nested quote +Look how he demolishes cheese in msl done by Lucifer now and Flash's cheese in the final game last MSL you just can't compare MSL/OSL to GSI . Well i suppose after being cheesed, and losing so much because of it, he had to figure out how to stop it eventually?! But in all seriousness the Troy cheese was brilliant - if you haven't watched it recently go rewatch it, it was pure genius. Far superior to that of the MSL cheese imo. But this point is rather superfluous to the whole argument. Show nested quote + Bisu lost shit load of games in GSI and was not playing well but in OSL he was at 100% . Nope i disagree with you there. Bisu only just limped through to the Ro8 and then Much played like a chump and was eliminated in two <10 min games. Hardly evidence to suggest Bisu was playing at his peak. The games against Flash were nice though, i'll give you that - but he still lost 1-3 which is a sad scoreline. Show nested quote +Or are you telling me that JD cheesed flash just because flash was up 1 game in OSL NOT ELIMINATED FROM THERE and that he lost 1 game to him in MSL ?????????????? Again, as established by a TLPD search this is factually wrong- the OSL series had been played in its entirety Show nested quote +You can't say that a lost to Flash killed his confidance he beat him in MSL , if it happens like that then he would be lone gone after his Bo5 with the rock . Jaedong was still on the rise then, with the mindset of a challenger - losing a Bo5 to Rock isn't that bad anyway, you can still tear through some chumps in ODT... thats hardly a mental state crushing incident. Although a weaker player would simply fall by the way side, but obviously Jaedong is a champion and small things like that don't phase him. Show nested quote +And what happen after that series he was not ever beaten in a BO5 series not by Toss not by Terran not by zerg and lost a single Bo3 in OSL and not so important Bo3 in GSI .Thats why i think that when JD losses he rapes you even harder and can't be compared to saviors scenario with FBH . Again thats based on the premise that the OSL series hadn't been fully played out - which is wrong. And yes, we can't compare Jaedong to Savior/FBH yet - just wait until Jaedong loses the last set; then we'll talk.
Ok my bad i thought that the second and third game in OSL was after GSI , anyway i still don't think that he cheesed him because he couldn't find a solution to a mech build , but maybe for revenge in OSL and the fact that he was pissed for being cheesed in the first game together are a strong possibilitys .
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haha and then Flash loses the first match of OSL! :O! THis is why I <3 SC. Flash's mental "edge" just got used against him!
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Aotearoa39261 Posts
Haha well thats the nature of the beast one particular series (or in this case game) doesn't typically dictate the decline of a player. Its generally two or more. Losing a match in the OSL is somewhat destiny anyway - winners curse ftw
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@ Sigrun
Tiamat: 3-0 TvZ
Colosseum: 5-1 TvZ
Athena: 2-1 TvZ
Othello: 11-8 TvZ
What i see with this statistic, is that the 3 first maps werent playend extensively and we cannot say that ther is an imbalance !
One game of Tiamat was a loss against Hwasin and i think it was more due to the Mouse....
U cannot argue at Colosseum also, 6 games doesnt mean shit when there is Mind, Flash, Sea playing....
Othello got good statistic toi rely on with approxymatively 20 games played on it
It wont be the inbalance of the map that will decide the possible winner of the Hwasin vs Jaedong match but their current form
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United States1654 Posts
On June 14 2008 00:41 trollbone wrote:
What i see with this statistic, is that the 3 first maps werent playend extensively and we cannot say that ther is an imbalance !
Yes I know such a small sample size doesn't determine balance, but I believe that it shows Terran has a slight advantage over Zerg on those maps, and with a TvZ specialist such as Hwasin versus the slumping ZvT of Jaedong, I can only assume Hwasin is going to use each advantage he can get.
Also OSL spoilers for Flash vs Luxury:
+ Show Spoiler + Luxury overcame the map imbalance on Troy, but I felt that Flash played a little sloppy there, with not scouting Luxury's build and losing his Vessels quite carelessly. Luxury's build was pretty damn smart though.
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Aotearoa39261 Posts
On June 14 2008 03:16 Sigrun wrote:Show nested quote +On June 14 2008 00:41 trollbone wrote:
What i see with this statistic, is that the 3 first maps werent playend extensively and we cannot say that ther is an imbalance !
Yes I know such a small sample size doesn't determine balance, but I believe that it shows Terran has a slight advantage over Zerg on those maps, and with a TvZ specialist such as Hwasin versus the slumping ZvT of Jaedong, I can only assume Hwasin is going to use each advantage he can get. Also OSL spoilers for Flash vs Luxury: + Show Spoiler + Luxury overcame the map imbalance on Troy, but I felt that Flash played a little sloppy there, with not scouting Luxury's build and losing his Vessels quite carelessly. Luxury's build was pretty damn smart though. + Show Spoiler [OSL spoiler] +I disagree. Troy isn't exactly imbalanced ZvT - its just that the games on it have all had good reasons for the Terrans winning. They have either been clearly superior players or cheesed their way to victory (ie Flash and Xellos). Lux played the map as it was intended to be played, and Flash made a number of unforced errors which ultimately cost him. The map looked very balanced in that game - which is pleasing to see given the 1-6 stats on it haha
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On June 13 2008 08:44 Sigrun wrote:
All Jaedong has is his micro and mechanics, and a rusty worn copy of Savior's ZvT manual.
Nice quote, I'd change my sig to this but the Mafia thread would shit a brick
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On June 11 2008 00:51 Jimtudor wrote:
Sweet article. Ultimate weapon ftw!
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is flash losing his edge [osl] ?
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On June 14 2008 12:54 ScarFace wrote:is flash losing his edge [osl] ?
Perhaps it was fun while it lasted . + Show Spoiler +Flash lost to hero in PL he ain't exactly bonjwa yet
I'm still waiting for Jaedong to become the true next Bonjwa it is just inevitable with his skills as long as he continues to play at professional level .
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Aotearoa39261 Posts
Wait up a sec? "Bonjwa" has been thrown around quite a bit since PoP brought it into mainstream use. Simply put, Bisu is no "Bonjwa", Jaedong can never be a bonjwa nor can Flash. A true Bonjwa wins 3 MSLs then his OSL the season after. Flash will, ultimately, fall by the way side - and my prediction is that he becomes like July. A strong player that never was a bonjwa - yet stands amongst them on the podium.
For the record Flash is bound by destiny to lose in the OSL. However, that does not mean he is washed up. While Jaedong fell similarly, the circumstances surrounding that period of time are different.
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On June 14 2008 21:06 Plexa wrote:
Wait up a sec? "Bonjwa" has been thrown around quite a bit since PoP brought it into mainstream use. Simply put, Bisu is no "Bonjwa", Jaedong can never be a bonjwa nor can Flash. A true Bonjwa wins 3 MSLs then his OSL the season after. Flash will, ultimately, fall by the way side - and my prediction is that he becomes like July. A strong player that never was a bonjwa - yet stands amongst them on the podium.
For the record Flash is bound by destiny to lose in the OSL. However, that does not mean he is washed up. While Jaedong fell similarly, the circumstances surrounding that period of time are different.
Hah i knew that he had to win 3 MSL but didn't know that it has to be before OSL .
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The pattern PoP noticed isn't a prerequisitory thing though. He just pointed out a pattern and then predicted Bisu to become a "bonjwa" since his 3rd consequetive MSL finals was reminiscent of Oov and Savior (who both happened to be "bonjwas"), a point I strongly argued against since Bisu, his strong performance in individual leagues aside, wasn't nearly as dominant as the four "bonjwas". A player can win two OSL in a row before his first MSL victory for all I care, if someone's good enough, people will end up anointing him as the next "bonjwa".
All Flash has to do is keep his winning. It's no easy task as winning one match leads to tougher competition be it the proleague postseason matches or the latter stages of the individual leagues. Keep winning - the trophies, winning percentages and memorable matches will follow. Whereas before I felt Bisu needed to raise his level of domination to become a "bonjwa", I feel that all Flash has to do is keep performing like he is, something I don't he'll manage to achieve. He's already cracking with the elevating schedule demands. Jaedong almost managed it at the end of last season, but cracked under the hectic schedule, unable to deal with the various strategies oppponents was lesser skill kept throwing at him.
Just goes to show you what a monster Savior was when he somehow managed to keep his winning rates above 70% when he had the postseason proleague matches and both individual leagues to keep him occupided. Not to mention the maps pool completely sucked ass (though I feel this has been slightly exaggerated to fit the drama).
No player, not even a "bonjwa" can't win it ALL. There's never been a player that managed to sweep the two major individual leagues and the proleague. All players feel the pressure once the schedule demands goes out of hand. Boxer, and Nada to some extent had their peaks in a completely different era so you can't compare them to the players of today accurately. Oov had his peak before the fusion of the proleagues, though it must be said that his level of domination really faltered once his schedule became tight. That's why I hesitate to agree when people claim Oov as the most dominant of them all, but that's another story.
Since the fusion of the proleagues, I think only four players came any close to winning it all. A reborn (his second peak if you will) Oov nearly managed to win it all (OSL victory, Proleague victory) but was stopped cold by Savior in the MSL. Savior himself came close (OSL victory) but his teammates failed him even though he won his match in the postseason playoffs, and Bisu stopped him cold in the MSL.
Stork and Jaedong are the only ones that came close to winning it all since the creation of the modern 5 day proleague schedule. Stork choked at the final stages of both MSL and OSL despite probably being the favourite to win, and Jaedong succumbed to the ever-tricky Flash in the early stages of the OSL. Can Flash prevail where the others two have failed? I don't thinks so, because winning two individual leagues at once is next to impossible, and winning the proleague requires the help of your teammates. But I don't think he needs to do all that. Just keep on winning, even if you slip up every once a while, and people will acknowledge you as the next Starcaft god.
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Aotearoa39261 Posts
You can differentiate between "the best" and the 3MSL->OSL bonjwa although this really is a moto point and is purely arguing definitions - but your other points are subject to debate.
Just goes to show you what a monster Savior was when he somehow managed to keep his winning rates above 70% when he had the postseason proleague matches and both individual leagues to keep him occupided. Not to mention the maps pool completely sucked ass (though I feel this has been slightly exaggerated to fit the drama). Savior is a perfect example of how 'great' you have to be to dominate everything. There was no tournament he entered where he wasn't a favorite. Sure we didn't have 5-day proleague but Savior's schedule was as hectic as it got and he still managed to dominate.
No player, not even a "bonjwa" can't win it ALL. There's never been a player that managed to sweep the two major individual leagues and the proleague. All players feel the pressure once the schedule demands goes out of hand. Boxer, and Nada to some extent had their peaks in a completely different era so you can't compare them to the players of today accurately. Oov had his peak before the fusion of the proleagues, though it must be said that his level of domination really faltered once his schedule became tight. That's why I hesitate to agree when people claim Oov as the most dominant of them all, but that's another story.
Since the fusion of the proleagues, I think only four players came any close to winning it all. A reborn (his second peak if you will) Oov nearly managed to win it all (OSL victory, Proleague victory) but was stopped cold by Savior in the MSL. Savior himself came close (OSL victory) but his teammates failed him even though he won his match in the postseason playoffs, and Bisu stopped him cold in the MSL.
Stork and Jaedong are the only ones that came close to winning it all since the creation of the modern 5 day proleague schedule. Stork choked at the final stages of both MSL and OSL despite probably being the favourite to win, and Jaedong succumbed to the ever-tricky Flash in the early stages of the OSL. Can Flash prevail where the others two have failed? I don't thinks so, because winning two individual leagues at once is next to impossible, and winning the proleague requires the help of your teammates. But I don't think he needs to do all that. Just keep on winning, even if you slip up every once a while, and people will acknowledge you as the next Starcaft god. I would suggest that the points you raise about hectic schedules is not a mutually exclusive idea from the thesis of this article. A hectic schedule can only be detrimental to a players mental state and can lead to unforced disruptions in the players games; often leading to losses. Savior, an example of someone who held his mental state strong throughout a hectic schedule, is a true champion. Iloveoov also was stomping mini-events all over the show (not tlpd recorded sadly) and his schedule was crazy as well - he held it together and achieved similar success. The mark of a champion in this regard is coping under the pressures of overwork. Obviously, weaker players succumb to the pressure and even the champions fall once their mental state is broken (hi savior) as things rapidly go down hill.
I think your judgment of winning all three events (OSL/MSL/PL) to be quite demanding. As you said, no player has done it (and for good reason) - and there a number of factors why. After winning a final players often become "complacent" or attain that "top of the world" feeling and lose focus (their mental state deteriorates). This is a reason why only boxer/nada have made consecutive OSL finals as well. GoRush could have been a dual league winner if he hadn't lost focus against Nada in the IOPS semi (after defeating nada in YATGK). And there are countless other examples of similar things happening throughout sc history. Winning a league + PL is much less demanding as the Proleague is a "team effort" where the one individual game is part of a whole set of games and thus if he loses the team is not lost. Its a team spirit not individual, so the team can pick up the slack whereas the player does not have this luxury in an individual tournament. Also some players like July for instance, were winning multiple leagues at the same time. Like iTv and Ghem and stuff - but obviously after winning the OSL things are different because it really is the pinnacle of Starcraft.
Winning both leagues at the same time isn't necessary to become a dominant figurehead in starcraft. Flash will not win this OSL, it just won't happen. But he will be back next OSL strong as ever ready to dominate once again - just like what happened with July after his win in Gillette. Indeed, i beleive that Flash is most similar to July in terms of dominance rather than the conventional bonjwa (3MSL1OSL). Jaedong and Stork fall better into the categories of Nal_ra and Gorush imho. Neither outright dominant for a significant period of time yet they made finals and semis regularly. Obviously its not a clear cut transition but its a composite of the "lesser" greats.
Ever 08 will be the wakeup call to Flash that he cannot get complacent (after getting owned by Lux) and will go on to strike it big in the next OSL (whatever that may be). Here's hoping that July will pull through as the [first] Starleague winner from Soul and the second golden mouse recipient
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Hong Kong20321 Posts
ah plexa u doubt flash so much
FLASH WILL PULL THROUGH!! lolol
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Well "bonjwa" is a subjective term, and ever since PoP's thread, people on this site feel that a "bonjwa" needs to fill out a particular pattern when I think it's just a cute pattern. It's a Team Liquid thing I guess. Maybe that's why there seems to be more people on this site than in Korean communities who believe that Boxer wasn't that dominating because he didn't complete this pattern PoP found. I think we shouldn't be judging "bonjwas" on some pattern because it really limits how we can judge the players.
I've mentioned the importance of succeeding in the proleague, despite the flaws it has in judging a player's strength, simply because of the huge emphasis put on in recent times. Succeeding in the proleague has become more important to a player than ever before. While the proleague achievements does depend heavily on the other team mates, great proleague performance has become a neccessity in order to be regarded as a great player. That's why I didn't rate Bisu that high because he never was a key player for his team. That's why I rated Jaedong so highly last season because he was the only player last season to boast proleague and individual league victories (while winning both individual leagues may be harder, you may be underestimating how diffilcult this is as well).
The only reason people didn't regard this achievement that high was probably because Flash stole the headlines by becoming the first terran player in years to dominate all the top protoss players in his campaign during GSI and OSL. GSI became important not because it was important to the players, but because it was the stage where Flash first emerged as a force to be reckoned with. Jaedong dominated during the latter half of last season, though he didn't cope that well with the hectic schedule. A few would have in my opinion.
I guess I put more emphasis upon doing well in all competitons than some because I believe that it is what separates the great from the good. I don't rate players that boost their statistics solely from being a key proleague player (Sea is a great example of this). I rate players that show their depth by doing great in all competition by winning against opponents who have prepared more. It is my belief that last season, Jaedong was superior to Flash but wasn't able to overcome him (a player he outclassed in the MSL) because of the postseason schedule (though Flash's mental games might have played a factor). This is why I believe Jaedong was still a superior player at the end of the season, but why I also felt this was what separated Jaedong (who at the time I thought would be the next coming of Savior) from Savior. Was mental games what separated the two? I'm not sure. Savior sure was more cheese resistant of the two.
Flash lost to Luxury because Luxury prepared more and Flash couldn't cope with it. I still believe that Troy sucks for zerg because of the short rush distance. The mere fact that terrans can force zergs to mass sunken without much difficulty tips the balance in terran's favour. Flash's lack of practice against Luxury showed because his reaction to Luxury fast 3rd gas, fast hive island type play totally sucked ass. I think Flash would have owned Luxury under equal circumstances, but this is Flash's limitations to overcome. It's my personal belief that once Flash is forced to play under the hectic schedule where he often would have to go to matches with minimal practice with only his mechanics and in-game decision making to help him, his relative lack of in-game brilliance will hinder him.
Will Flash keep being a force in the progaming scene like you said? Well, longetivity is an issue that a few people can predict correctly. Who knows? I think you already stated in your original post that the rate of which new players come up and replace the older ones has risen in recent time though. I personally believe that Flash has this season and perhaps the next to win everything that he can before he burns out. He may still be a prominent player afterwards, but I'm certain this status he holds right now will only last this season, next season at the most. Which is why he needs to win everything that he can right now and why every losses that he takes (like the two he had recently) will lessen his chances of being held in the same regard with the likes of Nada.
July winning this OSL will be SO sweet. He is probably the first zerg that I felt at ease when playing against terran (though it didn't last long). Oov once said that he felt at his strongest in the summer of 2004 and felt his heydey was over the moment he lost to July in the semifinals of the Gillette OSL though he went on to rule to scene on and off for as long as two years afterwards. It was amazing how July knocked Oov around silly when he was at his strongest. It'd be sweet if he somehow managed to do the same to Flash, though I highly doubt it. I swore not to expect such things from July sometime around last year because I kept getting angry with him and I don't wanna hate July.
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Aotearoa39261 Posts
Thats a great post, most of which i agree with so im glad we've reached a point where we understand each other. Just a few issues that i have with it;
This thing about bonjwas simply revolves around definitions. Personally i have no issues with drawing a distinction between the two concepts of "the best player" and a "bonjwa" although often they overlap. I have to assume that you know more about this issue than i do, personally i'm not to fussed about it.
The second thing is about proleauge and its importance to the players involved. Proleauge has always been an essential part of a progamers life and have always been quoted as saying that the teamleauges were the most important matches for them. I dont think this attitude has changed, although it has been brought to the forefront more by increasing the intensity of proleauge.
The final thing is whether Flash needs to win everything now, or whether he will still be strong next season. And i guess the answer lies within your post anyway - longevity is an issue that few can predict correctly. Personally i feel that Flash will preform similar to July, you think that he will fade away like many other gamers have done. Both are reasonable theories, and are only substantiated with gut feelings and personal beliefs. So this is a point where we have no choice but to agree to disagree, until time proves one of us right
And yes, Julyzerg hwaiting!!
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Haha, I know I sound like a sour grape here, but Flash has taken two stinging losses now in PL. First vs Best (which is def understandable, Best is sizzling right now, and he came into the game with a picture perfect BO vs Flash). But now Hero beats him too! They're playing really greedy FE's, while keeping Flash penned in, then just picking apart his push attempts with storms + mass macro.
That's got to take some of the luster off his edge, especially when these losses are obviously forcing him out of his comfort zone, and punishing him for going those fast armory upgrades.
Tbh, I love it! Flash is a fantastic player, but it was starting to bore me that people knew what was coming and couldn't beat it. The pro scene is definitely not stagnating!!
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Aotearoa39261 Posts
Personally, i feel that JangBi's stormscape against Nada (i think thats a worthy title don't you think?) is pioneering the Protoss counter to the Flash build. Which is nice to see . However i don't think its going to spell the end for Flash, he is a smart player and one who will be able to come back and adapt. I see this as a small setback for him on the grand scheme of things as he will have a chance to prove his worth next OSL, or the OSL after.
His edge may be eroding, slowly, but i feel that he will be able to maintain it and then sharpen it or later.
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Stormscape is an awesome name! Haha, I loved Planescape Torment back in the day (an old RPG game) and that name reminds me of it.
And yeah, I think he's still in it for a good while. Even after being down something like 2-3 expos, he came back in that game in a huge way. I noticed he was already starting to try adapting to the "stormscape" strategy by staggering his army a lot, crawling the map with vultures and mines, and staying very aggressive on the opponent's side. It did leave him vulnerable to some recalls, but I think next time he won't have to come back from so far behind like he did in the game vs hero. And he really thrashed hero's observer count, until hero was basically just rallying armies through minefields and eating the damage straight up.
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Zurich15325 Posts
When you finally come home at 6 am after a 14 hour drive through 3 countries after 1 week of nonstop partying, fall into bed, barely manage to hit the ON button on your laptop but then you are all of a sudden totally absorbed in a lengthly piece of text you know you just read the best FE in a looong time.
Great, great job! 11/10!
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i dont really follow the pro scene much but i always enjoy a good tl final edit
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Aotearoa39261 Posts
Im undecided whether i should add this or not to the article, but for now ill leave this here
Mental State and the OGN Curse
A "A State of Starcraft" extension
By Plexa
The OGN Curse goes by many names on teamliquid. Formerly, it was known as the OSL curse and more recently it has assumed the title "Winner's Curse". Regardless of the title of which it goes by, this curse is one of the great mysteries of Starcraft. Many of the Vets on the site know very well what this ancient curse beholds, however it has come to my attention that some of the newer guys have no idea about what the curse entails. The OGN Curse is a curse which dictates that no player can win the OSL back to back, with the exception of Boxer. Traditionally the former winner would be eliminated in the group stages of the OSL and descend into a slump, in recent times players have been eliminated at the Ro8 stage of the tournament.
![[image loading]](http://teamliquid.net/staff/Plexa/ilovept2/oov.png) He was arguably the best, but he still fell to the curse
For some brief history on the curse, after EVER 2004 - Oov was riding high as the undoubted best player in Starcraft. In You are the Golf King MSL he crushed July 2-0 3 days after his final against Boxer. His next opponent was the perfect Terran, Xellos, who defeated Oov 2-1. With Oov prevented from winning his 4th MSL, things seemed somewhat unstable for the Terran titan so he was set for redemption in IOPS OSL. He was placed in a group with July, Clon and Nada, strong company but nothing Oov couldn't handle. However the curse took effect and he lost his first two games to July and Clon which meant for the first time in his career he was eliminated from the OSL in the group stages. He managed a win against Nada however, although the game had no bearing on the final standings of the group. After IOPS Oov entered a slump, while not as drastic as Boxer's slumps, it was still a solid slump. The slump lasted until circa So1 and then he won his Second OSL the following Season - and the curse took hold again.
For a more recent example, it seems appropriate to cite Savior as his fall was a turning point in the history of Starcraft. After winning against Nada the curse took hold and he lost to Bisu in the MSL and Nada in the Shinhan Masters. I've already discussed this in the article at some length. In Daum OSL, Savior's group comprised of Iloveoov, Flash and Light. Savior was able to overcome oov and Flash and make it out of his group - just. But then in the Ro8 he met his teammate Iris in the Ro8 whom he lost 1-2 to. Savior obviously deteriorated from there, but he adhered to the OSL winners curse.
Savior's inability to win Shinhan Masters was a sign of the curse taking hold
So how does the winner's curse and the mental state of a progamer relate? Well there are a number of factors which get lumped on a player once he wins an OSL. The first of which is one that is natural once you become a champion, that is that you become a target. By winning the OSL you are the benchmark of skill for the rest of the progaming world to judge you by. Hence you become the player to beat. While this isn't exclusive to the OSL, it is more applicable to the OSL than the MSL. This seems rather strange to the foreign fan, but the MSL traditionally was consider a 'lesser' tournament to the OSL. This was largely based off the prize money offered. Also there has been significant press/hype around the OSL to make it seem like the best tournament, such as the creation of the Royal Road (absent from the MSL). Although in recent times the two tournaments are on the whole considered equal, there still is some of the stigma left in the scene. This means that an OSL win is always placed more highly than an MSL win, and thus the OSL champion is always going to be considered the benchmark of success. By becoming the benchmark, you become a target for every gamer - and that means everyone is out to get you.
After winning the most prestigious tournament in the Starcraft world, it is not uncommon for gamers to become complacent with this success and beleive that they are superior to others. Indeed this happens without many gamers realising as it happens on a subliminal level. This 'softens' the mental state of a gamer and makes him less prone to success. The softening means that the gamer is more likely to drop the odd set here and there - which is a big problem in the Bo1 group stages. When players lose the challenger mindset and take on the winners mindset they often struggle to continue to perform as their task changes from demonstrating their skill to defending their skill. Thats another skill in itself.
Winning Daum OSL was the beginning of the end for GGPlay
A very obvious example is that of GGplay. GGplay was a strong late game Zerg who was feared by many when he was at his peak. After coming back to win Daum OSL he dropped off the face of the earth. He slumped like no other because he could not handle this mindset change. As the champion, everyone wanted to beat him and his mindset had softened from his finals victory. These two factors severely hampered his performance in the group stage of EVER 2007. No one expected him to be able to defeat Bisu, but when he lost to Shudder things looked obviously wrong. GGPlays mindset was not equipped to handle this and as a consequence he slumped terribly - which demolished what remained of his mindset. While his skill was still formidable (e.g. GGplay vs Bisu in the Hanbit-MBC clash in some Proleague showmatch) he was never able to get his mindset straight and make a serious attempt on the OSL.
Jaedong's loss to Flash can be seen in the light of the OSL curse as well. When your mindset softens, you react less ably to surprises - something Flash came equipped with in his Ro8 match. Flash's brilliant cheese on Troy and his Mech on Katrina took advantage of the softened mental state of Jaedong and as a result Jaedong could not defeat the winners curse. Obviously, the rest of his deterioration was affected by further series and a crumbling mental state but his initial set back could be put squarely on the OSL curse. We are seeing a repeat with Flash at the moment, Luxury used a brilliant build on Troy which took Flash out of his zone and due to his softened mental state he dropped the set. His hiccups in proleague are also adequately explained by this phenomenon.
Even a God is subject to the laws of gravity, and the OGN Curse
While Flash is a revolutionary gamer, and one of the strongest Terrans of out day, he is still subject to the basic laws of Starcraft. Apart from Nada and Boxer, JulyZerg seems like the best candidate for Flash to emulate. July placed 2nd in IOPS OSL - 2 seasons after his win in Gillette then went on to win EVER 2005. Flash's emergence on the scene by toppling one of the biggest monsters ever in a spectacular display (Flash-Jaedong July-Iloveoov) and then defeating the best Protoss of the day in the final (Flash-Stork July-Reach) is so similar to July's that i beleive he will follow the same path. Luxury may eliminate Flash this time around, but Flash will come back and destroy the next two OSLs. Flash will have staying power, unlike his predecessor - and as a result he will define another generation of Terran gameplay.
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You fool! Your proofing has gone to hell in my absence!
Heh, nice read... The pwnage continues.
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I agree that Flash has staying power, and I agree that winning the osl makes you enter a bit of a slump, but I disagree with just about everything else. Flash wont follow some mystical pattern just because of the similar dynamics to a past rivalry, thats mumbo jumbo. Flash has lost random sets partially because of his mindset, partially because hes playing a ridiculously large amount of games.
But no, there will be no similar pattern, and Savior [imo] did not even enter a slump because of the osl. Savior was always arrogant, he always thought he was the best. Even if the osl is more important than the msl, he won the msl 3 times and made the finals 4 times before his osl victory. He was indisputably the best, he was indisputably on the 'winners mindset' long before shinhan. He WAS the one to beat. He lost to Bisu because Bisu played god damn immaculate like, and he wasn't able to cope. Savior had lost before, but never a crushing 0-3....in his best matchup, no less. From there he had hiccups, losing important sets though still giving a strong fight. Losing to Iris, FBH, Mind, and later Bisu again only kicked Savior in the balls after his humiliating defeat. He entered a slump because he had no confidence left, not because he had nothing to prove.
Edit: I love KTF, but I love Flash more. If they continue to play Flash EVERY game for EVERY ace match, I swear to god.... ktf coach...
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On June 18 2008 07:16 ScarFace wrote:
I agree that Flash has staying power, and I agree that winning the osl makes you enter a bit of a slump, but I disagree with just about everything else. Flash wont follow some mystical pattern just because of the similar dynamics to a past rivalry, thats mumbo jumbo. Flash has lost random sets partially because of his mindset, partially because hes playing a ridiculously large amount of games.
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that was gold plexa
and ya since savior won the osl, he has only gone further down hill to the sad sad point he is at right now T.T
i really hope he returns TT
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On June 18 2008 07:16 ScarFace wrote:I agree that Flash has staying power, and I agree that winning the osl makes you enter a bit of a slump, but I disagree with just about everything else. Flash wont follow some mystical pattern just because of the similar dynamics to a past rivalry, thats mumbo jumbo. Flash has lost random sets partially because of his mindset, partially because hes playing a ridiculously large amount of games. But no, there will be no similar pattern, and Savior [imo] did not even enter a slump because of the osl. Savior was always arrogant, he always thought he was the best. Even if the osl is more important than the msl, he won the msl 3 times and made the finals 4 times before his osl victory. He was indisputably the best, he was indisputably on the 'winners mindset' long before shinhan. He WAS the one to beat. He lost to Bisu because Bisu played god damn immaculate like, and he wasn't able to cope. Savior had lost before, but never a crushing 0-3....in his best matchup, no less. From there he had hiccups, losing important sets though still giving a strong fight. Losing to Iris, FBH, Mind, and later Bisu again only kicked Savior in the balls after his humiliating defeat. He entered a slump because he had no confidence left, not because he had nothing to prove. Edit: I love KTF, but I love Flash more. If they continue to play Flash EVERY game for EVERY ace match, I swear to god.... ktf coach...
I think you misunderstand Plexa's article. I read the article about the curse as a reasoning for why these winners even BEGIN their slump. You can say the other player plays immaculately, but I have seen plenty of games where a player plays pretty much the best game he can, and still loses. There is no denying that the mind games are even more important than the technical dynamic occurring in each match.
It's as simple as becoming a winner makes you soft. It doesn't make you a loser. But I think Plexa said it brilliantly when he talked about how the psychology changes from being a challenger to a defender. It's a whole different world, and I thought he used really beautiful historical examples to justify his reasoning.
Rock arguably had a MASSIVE advantage over Flash on Coliseum in their PL match, but he lost. BADLY. Carriers was not a bad strat at all. But you could tell he just didn't have the mental toughness to stay in the game. He was intimidated. He saw a chance to win and scrambled for it desperately. And he failed.
By comparison, Best wasn't even close to having as big an advantage as Rock had early on, but he managed to stomp Flash with a similar strat on the same map. Why? Because he grinded it out. He brought up good gate armies in support of his carriers, and he didn't just throw it all out there in a big lump of imba. He fought it methodically, and earned his victory.
And the example you're using of Savior, just doesn't gel in my head. That shows the lack of understanding of what the CHALLENGER mindset is. The challenger mindset is one that doesn't have as much ego. The Challenger has something to WIN. The winner mindset is the one where he thinks he's at his pinnacle. He has something to LOSE. There's a world of difference between the two.
Sure, Savior was on top of his game. THat's without doubt. And that's EXACTLY why he was so crushed by his big loss to Bisu. It's a psychology everyone understands. A loss is way more humiliating when you're #1 than if you're #100349. It doesn't mean as soon as someone hits #1 they autolose. But it does mean when that inevitable loss comes, they will be devastated by it 10x harder. That is what I think Plexa's article was saying, and I agree with it 110%.
I mean, look at Stork. Fantastic player. Without doubt one of the elite 3 in the SC scene. He should have gotten his league wins SO SO long ago. But now he's in a massive slump. Why? Devastating losses to Flash when he felt like he was at the top of his game. It is the same dynamic, regardless of whether or not he won the actual trophy. Psychology is not as cut and dry as a math equation, but it does operate in certain patterns, and I think that's without doubt.
I'd suggest looking over Plexa's actual article, and instead of trying to pigeon-hole it by disputing little details, understand what general dynamic he is outlining. It's enlightening and entertaining. It definitely makes my own SC viewing experience that much more enjoyable. Thanks Plexa!
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I agreed with his general statements, I disagreed with his premise about Savior. Perhaps you should read my post rather than respond in a condescending tone? Savior collapsed because he was THE player to beat and he lost. He was not THE player to beat because of the OSL. He was THE player to beat long before that, because of his 3 msl titles basically in a row. I understand why people slump, and I never argued against that. I argued against the dynamic Plexa is claiming Flash will follow, which is ludicrious, and why Savior slumped. In case you still dont get it, lets recap:
Plexa's statement: Savior lost the Challenger mindset after winning the OSL, allowing his mental game to weaken, which collapsed his game after his defeat to Bisu.
My statement: Savior lost the challenger mindset sometime between his 3 msl victories and his OSL run, allowing his mental game to weaken, which collapsed his game after his defeat to Bisu.
Plexas statement: Flash will follow Julys pattern of staying one of the consistent best players, still winning starleagues, though maybe not all of them, just as JulyZerg did.
My Statement: An unfounded hypothesis, utterly ludicrous. Flash's future is unknown, it is not written in the stars, and it will not follow the same dynamics as any past osl winner. Not Jaedong, not ggplay, not July, no one. It will follow Flash's path, because it is his to make.
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Rock played Flash on Othello in OSL. Not on colosseum in PL. Just a little nitpick.
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Ahh you're right Tinithor. My mistake!
And I apologize ScarFace. I didn't mean to come off as condescending, although looking back at what I wrote, I definitely did :\. Sorry!
And yeah, I think it's too difficult to call exactly how the future will go. But I really appreciated how he highlighted the general dynamic of Winner versus Challenger mentality. So, I concede the point
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Aotearoa39261 Posts
On June 18 2008 10:56 ScarFace wrote:
I agreed with his general statements, I disagreed with his premise about Savior. Perhaps you should read my post rather than respond in a condescending tone? Savior collapsed because he was THE player to beat and he lost. He was not THE player to beat because of the OSL. He was THE player to beat long before that, because of his 3 msl titles basically in a row. I understand why people slump, and I never argued against that. I argued against the dynamic Plexa is claiming Flash will follow, which is ludicrious, and why Savior slumped. In case you still dont get it, lets recap:
Plexa's statement: Savior lost the Challenger mindset after winning the OSL, allowing his mental game to weaken, which collapsed his game after his defeat to Bisu.
My statement: Savior lost the challenger mindset sometime between his 3 msl victories and his OSL run, allowing his mental game to weaken, which collapsed his game after his defeat to Bisu.
Plexas statement: Flash will follow Julys pattern of staying one of the consistent best players, still winning starleagues, though maybe not all of them, just as JulyZerg did.
My Statement: An unfounded hypothesis, utterly ludicrous. Flash's future is unknown, it is not written in the stars, and it will not follow the same dynamics as any past osl winner. Not Jaedong, not ggplay, not July, no one. It will follow Flash's path, because it is his to make.
Well Savior is an anomaly, similar to Oov and the other bonjwas (3MSL definition). Savior didn't become the champ over night.. it took a considerably longer period of time before people even started to notice him. I mean, even after his series with reach he was still just "some zerg" and even after he lost to Chojja - he was that strong zerg with a ZvZ weakness. I'd say he became the champ around his victory over Ra in the holy wars. That defined savior as the champ. But still the OSL title eluded him. Seriously i think you underestimate how much the OSL meant to savior - he had been denied entry every single time until Shinhan 3 - thats why he royal roaded. The OSL was significant as it really was "the last step" toward becoming a god. Savior's loss to bisu wasn't a direct derivative of losing the OSL, i'd be a fool to argue that. What im saying is that the OSL had a minor role to play in the grand scheme of things in terms of Savior. The semiarticle was more directed at the OSL curse and players who ascend to the OSL throne before the MSL. This is indeed a generalization, but it is a factor that affects all players who become a champion.
Plexas statement: generally, the winning the OSL changes the mindset of a player from the challenger to the champion which allows a weakness in their mental game
Bisu blitz'd savior, something which came from nowhere and thus that series is far more pivotal in the career of savior than just a OSL curse loss - it is a definitive cause of his slump.
Plexas statement: Flash will follow a pattern similar to july
-> this is completely unfounded and purely my hypothesis. There is no reason why Flash should follow a similar pattern, except that when i watch flash play i get the same feeling as i get when i saw july playing. That is all - this is pure speculation; nothing more. Thats really a minor point of the article and a hypothesis of things to come, the crux of the article revolves around the general case of what winning the OSL does
btw EGoldman hit the nail right on the head that's exactly what i was trying to say ^^
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why does flash never open his mouth?
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Aotearoa39261 Posts
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On June 18 2008 13:25 EGoldman wrote:Ahh you're right Tinithor. My mistake! And I apologize ScarFace. I didn't mean to come off as condescending, although looking back at what I wrote, I definitely did :\. Sorry! And yeah, I think it's too difficult to call exactly how the future will go. But I really appreciated how he highlighted the general dynamic of Winner versus Challenger mentality. So, I concede the point Its alright man, shit happens. 
@Plexa. Good points, I suppose I assumed a bit too much into your writing. I'm not too sure what you mean in that Flash seems similar to July though, I'd appreciate if you could explain that a bit more. By the way, why was Savior never in the OSL before Shinhan 3? Did he fail in the offline qualifiers? I wasn't in to the Starcraft scene until Savior was actually making his osl run.
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Aotearoa39261 Posts
It's just that July came out and was given the impossible task of defeating Oov in the Gillette Semifinals. No one believed he could do it at all, and Oov was tipped as the huge favorite for good reason. Somehow, July managed to win over Oov and made a name for himself as the best Zerg since YellOw to reign upon the progaming scene. He followed up his victory in the iTv ranking league where he defeated oov twice more. Indeed, the Julyzerg/OOv rivalry is the 04-05 equivalent of the Boxer/Yellow rivalry. Just as Flash/Jaedong is the 08 Terran Zerg clash.
July made a name for himself in the OSL, just as Flash has done. And there are two types of OSL champions - those that stick around and become monsters on the scene (ala Boxer, July) and those which drop off in an instant (Sync, GGPlay). Everything about Flash reminds me of July's ascent in Gillette and his struggle in Ever 2004 (how ironic). I cannot fathom Flash becoming the first kind of champion, whereas the idea that Flash will continue to play strong and win OSLs like July did (after his win he was eliminated in the group stages of EVER, placed 2nd in IOPS and then won EVER 2005 - very impressive).
Those are the only reasons i made the assertion linking July to Flash. Ultimately Flash will run his own course and define his own identity; but at this moment in time his ascent reminds me of July.
@The point about Savior;
He was continually stopped in the offline qualifiers by the most random gamers. Eventually he broke out into the ODT and defeated Casy, then Jaedong to advance into the OSL (24 man tournament then thus it was easier to get in haha).
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Losta pretty pictures.
Are you happy plexa? ^_^
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Awesome FinalEdit.
Really loved every bit of it. Will likely read again.
Thank you.
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Good read, more about philosophy than strategy, which is something Starcraft needs and is definetely capable of. Keep it up!
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disagree here: there was still pros that make everyone else look like scrubs after savior; that was bisu then later jaedong.
i love seeing resurgences of older games like nada and july. july 2nd person to have golden mouse ftw! if he hasnt lost yet that is.
and though yes though one person loses it makes them lose conscious and they lower from their perch, doesn't things change when one is barely conscious? i mean in one of boxer's OSL, he had no sleep for 24 hours and still won the OSL didn't he? i've had this feeling before, non stop sc for a day and 3 hours. you start blinking, missing out on some important moments in the game, but open your eyes to wonder why your somehow ur still on top. this is because your instincts take over, your mind shuts down, and you play on sheer instinct and muscle memory. thats how it felt for me.
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I really do not see this that way.
No one wins forever (see Tennis, Roger Federer has a bad year). BUT
from time to time there are some Players/Sportsmen that can dominate theyr sport for some time. Examples? Federer, Sampras, Rossi, Schumacher, Woods, Ronaldhino, Jordan and so did Boxer, Nada, Savior and now probably Flash does.
Only very few can do it for a VERY longtime (Schumacher, Jordan, Rossi, Federer) but they also got beaten some times. This had nothing to do with psychologie, you just *have* up and downs, nothing is working perfect everytime, sometimes your down and the competition NEVER sleeps.
There is allways that young kid that wants to best you, it's actually just a matter of time until there comes a better player, be it because you got lazy, because he is just better or because you just don't feel good on that day.
The psychical mindset for sure also plays into this, but i don't think ANY of the real top pro gamers got a weak mind. They wouldn't get that far if they would show weaknesses and mental blockades if they play against certain enemys that owned them the last time. If you train SC/BW for X to XX hours a day, you gotta lose 5 times in a row against someone that you should beat. You can't just shut your mindset down in training, this would also *hit* you, but i don't see this happen?
The real thing is just, most of the Top players (until today) had *clear* strenghts. Now this is shaken a bit. To bring another Tennis analogy.. Long time Ago there were:
GOOD Players that relied 90% on theyr service.
GOOD Players that JUST played serve and volley.
GOOD Players that were BAD on Sand (or the other way).
Now what happened?
The sport evolved.
Federer, Nadal (and Djokovic) may still have *theyr thing* but they can play all the other aspects of Tennis to at least the level theyr concurrence can. They are *complete*. While Federer has an extremly strong service, he is way more than that, he's fast (well, not compared to Nadal), he's strong... And so are Nadal and Djokovic.
The Tennissport is better than ever before, why? Because it's no longer dominated by some *Trend*.
Probably this is also happening to SC/BW?
There won't be MR. MACRO which soley on this principle dominates his oponents, there also won't be MR. MICRO that does things people wouldn't even believe and has enough Macro to deliver the killing blow in time. This is basically, atleast i hope that, just the next level of the game.
The game is played more and more perfect, the more players that get into the *reach* of *the perfect game* the faster all of them lose because you just dind't feel good that day.
In Tennis up until now it's just Nadal, Federer and probably Djokovic that can keep up with each other, who will it be in SC/BW?
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Aotearoa39261 Posts
Nice use of sports analogies, but nostalgia does funny things to the mind.
Recently i was going through a number of old Arbiter[frolix] reports for personal growth, when i stumbled upon a number of posters sharing the sentiment that there was no dominant force in progaming and that everything is basically level between the top players etc. Rather similar to what we have now really.
What was ironic is that those posters were posting in the mid of the fearsome reign of iloveoov. No player has owned up both league simultaneously and as a consequence there never really is a clear cut number 1 gamer. In the midst of iloveoov's reign, Reach pushed him hard PvT and July defeated him 3 times in 3 weeks (bo5/bo5/bo3 iirc). On the micro level its hard to say that oov was dominant at all!
Historians, like myself, introduce ways of grouping periods of history. Looking back with a nostalgia its difficult to recall just how close some of those series were and how hard oov was tested. Then they are blanket labeled as "iloveoov's era" purely because the statistics say so and there is enough nostalgia to bludge out he micro detail and focus on the macro picture.
People will look back on last year and say, hey, Bisu did pretty damn well, and so did Stork and Jaedong; and although there is no clear winner now im pretty sure there will be in months/years time.
and when you say people won't be remembered as mr macro and whatnot. I completely disagree. Bisu's strength, above all else, was the fact that his preparation for games was unrivaled. Bisu sucked in proleague because his biggest trump card could only be played in series matches with preparation. Proleague drastically cut that down, and as individuals took up more of his time, he couldn't spend as much time on it. Why else could he have lost to ChRh, a player who had not won in over 1000 days, when he was at the peak of his skill?
Bisu was a strategist and planned out each battle better than any gamer had done before - thats how he 3-0'd ra and savior and forged starcraft history. And thats what he'll be remember for.
Stork never won anything so meh, Yellow mk.ii. But really he brought nothing to the table after Gom S2 as he seemed so demoralized. I can't make a statement about Jaedong yet because he's still doing decently well. Mind will be remembered as perhaps having the best TvP timing in all of progaming. Seriously, Mind's TvP timing is sick and his timing pushes completely destroyed bisu as a result.
In summation, because this was a messy post, although things seem like a chaotic maelstrom right now; over time and with the help of nostalgia we'll be able to break down and analyze these time periods and classify the legends from the ordinary and establish some sense.
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Thanks Plexa,
this article has given me hope that Stork is still a strong player
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Plexa after all the effort you went to make me believe that JD's play has decreased or even compare his few bad games in PL to savior slump and talked that after his so favoured lost vs Hwasin in MSL that he will diminish in to mediocraty just like FBH vs Savior . I never thought that JD's play ever decreased because of Flash , but just that he needed a little time to get his mood in to the new season and new maps . My statement is that JD has been the man to beat since his OSL final vs Stork and i'm still abideing to that statement . If somebody wants to classify himself as a legend they have to break through the legend killer .Flash was able to do that . He only proved that he is capable of becomeing a legend , but not that he is the man who judges legends from commoners in this period .
Jaedong Flash and even Best have proven that they are the favourites in their games versus anyone , but i think that the only "true" favourite versus anyone is Jaedong even versus each other . This statement is going to become unquestionable when the final of the MSL is over . As of now Flash's dominance is on a question mark after his lost to Luxury and Best's dominance is too before he can beat July in the OSL final . In that I can say that Best is not favourite . July with his history of ZvP plus the maps and the fact that this is his chance for greatness that only Nada has achieved is favourite over the still rookie in my eyes Best . So unless Best proves he can win and be like Jaedong and Flash he is not a " man to beat" like Jaedong and Flash .
No zerg can rival JD's supremacy over all of the 3 zerg machups maybe except Luxury in ZvT but i don't think his win vs Flash was greater then JD's vs Hwasin . Flash on the other hand is rivaled in TvZ by players such as Hwasin or others and in TvT by some TvT specialits , i thought he was rivaled in his TvP by Mind or ForGG but they can't quite compare with Flash on that matter . Now you could say that the zerg players are more weak then the terrans on this maps , but that will just prove how great is JD . Am i wrong ?
All in all i just can't accept what you are trying to pull here with the Flash will become an other July and JD will slump like savior before he gets his 3 MSL wins . Both Jaedong and Flash are rather new to the scene and the best at the same time so i can't accept the fact that Flash what you are trying to say will stay dominant , but JD's time is over . That is just unnatural to me . Hence people started to call JD the new Savior , and i believe that he is capable of following the path of The Maestro with even biger success because of his mechanics and killer instincts.
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Putting things into perspective with the season rapidly coming to a close.
Flash
All games versus progamers: 33 wins 13 losses 71.7%
Official Kespa matches: 27 wins 12 losses 69.2% (most wins this season)
OSL: 3 wins 2 losses, lost in the quarter-finals to Practice
MSL: 7 wins 2 losses, in the semi-finals against ForGG
Proleague: 17 wins 8 losses (most wins this season)
GomTV Invitational: 6 wins 1 loss, in the quarter-finals against Memory
Best
All games versus progamers: 22 wins 5 losses 81.5%
Official Kespa matches: 22 wins 5 losses 81.5% (2nd most wins)
OSL: 10 wins 2 losses, in the finals against July
MSL: Failed to qualify (lost to Lucifer in Survivor Tournament before the season began)
Proleague: 12 wins 3 losses (joint 4th most wins)
GomTV Invitational: Did not participate
Jaedong
All games versus progamers: 29 wins 14 losses 67.4%
Official Kespa matches: 21 wins 11 losses 65.6% (3rd most wins)
OSL: 0 wins 2 losses, failed to qualify for the final 16 with successive defeats against Casy and Backho
MSL: 10 wins 2 losses, in the finals
Proleague: 11 wins 7 losses (joint 6th most wins)
GomTV Invitational: 8 wins 3 losses, in the semi-finals against YoonJoong
Obviously Flash is having a season of his lifetime here (the kid is young, so he could outperform himself in the upcoming seasons, a very scary thought). If he wraps the season up with an MSL trophy, it'll go down in history as one of the most dominant performances in a season. Well, his season already has been tremendous, but it'll be a shame if he ends the season without any individual or proleague trophies because he was getting spread a little too thin.
Best's out of the world season has gone pretty much unnoticed because of Flash, but he has basically swept the floor with everyone in every competition he entered. I think he could very well end up this season as a individual league champion with a proleague victory to boot just like Jaedong last season, if the post season goes well for him. Obviously Jaedong had much greater schedule demands (Jaedong's record last season was a mindboggling 53-20 in all matches, and 44-17 in official matches), but it would be a phenomenal feat nonetheless.
Jaedong has had a poor season in comparison with his last. Can't blame him though. In fact, this season has been a testament to Jaedong's class as a player besides his god given fundamentals which is visibly still the best in the scene. I thought with his early exit in the OSL and the harsh reality of not being able to go up against terrans on some of the god awful maps used this season would spell the end of Jaedong as a top performing player. Thank god I was wrong. His manager made a bright move by not suiciding Jaedong against terrans in the proleague and Jaedong showed his depth as a player by overcoming Hwasin in the quarter-finals of the MSL. An MSL triumph would be so sweet as it would be giving the finger to the map pool that made this season so miserable for the zergs. I'm a pessimist by nature though, and I believe that it what Jaedong performed against Hwasin was a total miracle. Jaedong has shown that he can deal it when maps say no to standard zerg play, but I mean, the odds are still stacked against him.
This season has been pretty good so far. The odd thing is, the lack of zergs really does seem to elevate the overall entertainment level. The overall picture of masses of protoss and terrans with the best of the zerg battling for survival does well with audience I guess. I still hate the map pool though. I mean when you have a player of Jaedong’s caliber not being able to play for his team because the odds are so stacked against him, you know something isn’t right. I think people should look at the number of games by a particular race on a proleague map before checking out the scores between races because that’s just as, if not more important when it comes to exposing racial imbalance. The so-called zerg haven, Blue Storm, is a pretty balanced map in my eyes (even the progamers agree with me) because all races have played on it. Whoever played better normally won. Maps like Othello, Wurthering Heights and Colosseum are terrible maps in terms of balance in my opinion, not because of the race scores, but because zergs NEVER play on it unless they absolutely have to. God it was SO frustrating having to see Jaedong hold hands with Lomo with his teammate playing someone Jaedong could have RAPED SILLY on a better balanced map.
Um... summarizing a very long post, I gues I just wanted to say Jaedong's mental strength was as strong as ever, and that everyone succumbs to crazy schedule demands and gay maps. It was the schedule demands that prevented Jaedong from looking as powerful as he really was last season, and the GAY maps that prevented him from doing so this season, though he had more to him than I thought because some players would kill to have the season he is having right now.
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well written article..
i really want to watch some of the matches you speak of.
can someone mail me some replays ?
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good read
jaedong is better then flash though imo
and I loved this quote
"Up until yesterday, I had no confidence. My winning percentage was 0%. I lost every time. So I told my coach, "I lose a lot in practice. I have no confidence" and he replied, "Admit that you are not the top class and tackle it". And he also said, "Choi Yeon-Sung the captain's win has the biggest influence in the team". Thanks to him, I regained my confidence. I prepared with the mindset that I will win even if I die."
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Wow Plexa, every articel is filled with depth and truth. Simply amazing
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Bisu, the best toss for me
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+ Show Spoiler + this article is highlighted by the best vs jaedong series
in game 2, best made too many cannons early, which turned out to be a blessing in disguise because of jaedong's all-in strategy but in game 3, best lost 2 corsairs early which eventually led to him losing his reaver shuttle without getting a single kill or landing in jaedong's base and then best lost a whole bunch of corsairs and didnt even kill jaedong's overlord at 3oclock i think it was
best jumped and you could just see him fall apart
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very very interesting, a simple computer game is a mind game in the professional area of starcraft
that's fascinating xD
i love your story plexa
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Great read, ive always thought that Flash was a really boring player to watch, but now i know what to look for.
Thanks plexa!
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interesting to read this article for the first time now, after we've seen flash clearly experiencing some serious agony after losses in gom finals and the msl to forgg, to yellow, osl to ggplay and proleague to jaedong. My feeling is that no one is free from feeling the agony of defeat after the high of victory, but everyone has a choice in how to react to it. As oov's story demonstrates, he was able to rebuild from his low point when he admitted that he was not the best. Savior on the other hand, has never really accepted his defeat and moved on. He seems haunted. I hope Flash will be able to come to terms with his vulnerability and rise from the ashes.
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