EPTA State of Starcraft - Page 8
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Resonate
United Kingdom8402 Posts
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Plexa
Aotearoa39261 Posts
![[image loading]](http://www.teamliquid.net/staff/Plexa/State/closer.png) ?  | ||
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ScarFace
United States1175 Posts
On June 18 2008 13:25 EGoldman wrote: Its alright man, shit happens. Ahh you're right Tinithor. My mistake! And I apologize ScarFace. I didn't mean to come off as condescending, although looking back at what I wrote, I definitely did :\. Sorry! And yeah, I think it's too difficult to call exactly how the future will go. But I really appreciated how he highlighted the general dynamic of Winner versus Challenger mentality. So, I concede the point   @Plexa. Good points, I suppose I assumed a bit too much into your writing. I'm not too sure what you mean in that Flash seems similar to July though, I'd appreciate if you could explain that a bit more. By the way, why was Savior never in the OSL before Shinhan 3? Did he fail in the offline qualifiers? I wasn't in to the Starcraft scene until Savior was actually making his osl run. | ||
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Plexa
Aotearoa39261 Posts
July made a name for himself in the OSL, just as Flash has done. And there are two types of OSL champions - those that stick around and become monsters on the scene (ala Boxer, July) and those which drop off in an instant (Sync, GGPlay). Everything about Flash reminds me of July's ascent in Gillette and his struggle in Ever 2004 (how ironic). I cannot fathom Flash becoming the first kind of champion, whereas the idea that Flash will continue to play strong and win OSLs like July did (after his win he was eliminated in the group stages of EVER, placed 2nd in IOPS and then won EVER 2005 - very impressive). Those are the only reasons i made the assertion linking July to Flash. Ultimately Flash will run his own course and define his own identity; but at this moment in time his ascent reminds me of July. @The point about Savior; He was continually stopped in the offline qualifiers by the most random gamers. Eventually he broke out into the ODT and defeated Casy, then Jaedong to advance into the OSL (24 man tournament then thus it was easier to get in haha). | ||
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skyglow1
New Zealand3962 Posts
Are you happy plexa? ^_^ | ||
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prOxi.swAMi
Australia3091 Posts
Really loved every bit of it. Will likely read again. Thank you. | ||
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knf
Sweden282 Posts
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Crimson)S(hadow
Philippines578 Posts
i love seeing resurgences of older games like nada and july. july 2nd person to have golden mouse ftw! if he hasnt lost yet that is. and though yes though one person loses it makes them lose conscious and they lower from their perch, doesn't things change when one is barely conscious? i mean in one of boxer's OSL, he had no sleep for 24 hours and still won the OSL didn't he? i've had this feeling before, non stop sc for a day and 3 hours. you start blinking, missing out on some important moments in the game, but open your eyes to wonder why your somehow ur still on top. this is because your instincts take over, your mind shuts down, and you play on sheer instinct and muscle memory. thats how it felt for me. | ||
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Velr
Switzerland10764 Posts
No one wins forever (see Tennis, Roger Federer has a bad year). BUT from time to time there are some Players/Sportsmen that can dominate theyr sport for some time. Examples? Federer, Sampras, Rossi, Schumacher, Woods, Ronaldhino, Jordan and so did Boxer, Nada, Savior and now probably Flash does. Only very few can do it for a VERY longtime (Schumacher, Jordan, Rossi, Federer) but they also got beaten some times. This had nothing to do with psychologie, you just *have* up and downs, nothing is working perfect everytime, sometimes your down and the competition NEVER sleeps. There is allways that young kid that wants to best you, it's actually just a matter of time until there comes a better player, be it because you got lazy, because he is just better or because you just don't feel good on that day. The psychical mindset for sure also plays into this, but i don't think ANY of the real top pro gamers got a weak mind. They wouldn't get that far if they would show weaknesses and mental blockades if they play against certain enemys that owned them the last time. If you train SC/BW for X to XX hours a day, you gotta lose 5 times in a row against someone that you should beat. You can't just shut your mindset down in training, this would also *hit* you, but i don't see this happen? The real thing is just, most of the Top players (until today) had *clear* strenghts. Now this is shaken a bit. To bring another Tennis analogy.. Long time Ago there were: GOOD Players that relied 90% on theyr service. GOOD Players that JUST played serve and volley. GOOD Players that were BAD on Sand (or the other way). Now what happened? The sport evolved. Federer, Nadal (and Djokovic) may still have *theyr thing* but they can play all the other aspects of Tennis to at least the level theyr concurrence can. They are *complete*. While Federer has an extremly strong service, he is way more than that, he's fast (well, not compared to Nadal), he's strong... And so are Nadal and Djokovic. The Tennissport is better than ever before, why? Because it's no longer dominated by some *Trend*. Probably this is also happening to SC/BW? There won't be MR. MACRO which soley on this principle dominates his oponents, there also won't be MR. MICRO that does things people wouldn't even believe and has enough Macro to deliver the killing blow in time. This is basically, atleast i hope that, just the next level of the game. The game is played more and more perfect, the more players that get into the *reach* of *the perfect game* the faster all of them lose because you just dind't feel good that day. In Tennis up until now it's just Nadal, Federer and probably Djokovic that can keep up with each other, who will it be in SC/BW? | ||
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Plexa
Aotearoa39261 Posts
Recently i was going through a number of old Arbiter[frolix] reports for personal growth, when i stumbled upon a number of posters sharing the sentiment that there was no dominant force in progaming and that everything is basically level between the top players etc. Rather similar to what we have now really. What was ironic is that those posters were posting in the mid of the fearsome reign of iloveoov. No player has owned up both league simultaneously and as a consequence there never really is a clear cut number 1 gamer. In the midst of iloveoov's reign, Reach pushed him hard PvT and July defeated him 3 times in 3 weeks (bo5/bo5/bo3 iirc). On the micro level its hard to say that oov was dominant at all! Historians, like myself, introduce ways of grouping periods of history. Looking back with a nostalgia its difficult to recall just how close some of those series were and how hard oov was tested. Then they are blanket labeled as "iloveoov's era" purely because the statistics say so and there is enough nostalgia to bludge out he micro detail and focus on the macro picture. People will look back on last year and say, hey, Bisu did pretty damn well, and so did Stork and Jaedong; and although there is no clear winner now im pretty sure there will be in months/years time. and when you say people won't be remembered as mr macro and whatnot. I completely disagree. Bisu's strength, above all else, was the fact that his preparation for games was unrivaled. Bisu sucked in proleague because his biggest trump card could only be played in series matches with preparation. Proleague drastically cut that down, and as individuals took up more of his time, he couldn't spend as much time on it. Why else could he have lost to ChRh, a player who had not won in over 1000 days, when he was at the peak of his skill? Bisu was a strategist and planned out each battle better than any gamer had done before - thats how he 3-0'd ra and savior and forged starcraft history. And thats what he'll be remember for. Stork never won anything so meh, Yellow mk.ii. But really he brought nothing to the table after Gom S2 as he seemed so demoralized. I can't make a statement about Jaedong yet because he's still doing decently well. Mind will be remembered as perhaps having the best TvP timing in all of progaming. Seriously, Mind's TvP timing is sick and his timing pushes completely destroyed bisu as a result. In summation, because this was a messy post, although things seem like a chaotic maelstrom right now; over time and with the help of nostalgia we'll be able to break down and analyze these time periods and classify the legends from the ordinary and establish some sense. | ||
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Fantabulous[Fab]
United States21 Posts
this article has given me hope that Stork is still a strong player | ||
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raga4ka
Bulgaria5679 Posts
Jaedong Flash and even Best have proven that they are the favourites in their games versus anyone , but i think that the only "true" favourite versus anyone is Jaedong even versus each other . This statement is going to become unquestionable when the final of the MSL is over . As of now Flash's dominance is on a question mark after his lost to Luxury and Best's dominance is too before he can beat July in the OSL final . In that I can say that Best is not favourite . July with his history of ZvP plus the maps and the fact that this is his chance for greatness that only Nada has achieved is favourite over the still rookie in my eyes Best . So unless Best proves he can win and be like Jaedong and Flash he is not a " man to beat" like Jaedong and Flash . No zerg can rival JD's supremacy over all of the 3 zerg machups maybe except Luxury in ZvT but i don't think his win vs Flash was greater then JD's vs Hwasin . Flash on the other hand is rivaled in TvZ by players such as Hwasin or others and in TvT by some TvT specialits , i thought he was rivaled in his TvP by Mind or ForGG but they can't quite compare with Flash on that matter . Now you could say that the zerg players are more weak then the terrans on this maps , but that will just prove how great is JD . Am i wrong ? All in all i just can't accept what you are trying to pull here with the Flash will become an other July and JD will slump like savior before he gets his 3 MSL wins . Both Jaedong and Flash are rather new to the scene and the best at the same time so i can't accept the fact that Flash what you are trying to say will stay dominant , but JD's time is over . That is just unnatural to me . Hence people started to call JD the new Savior , and i believe that he is capable of following the path of The Maestro with even biger success because of his mechanics and killer instincts. | ||
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vauli
Peru18 Posts
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Letmelose
Korea (South)3227 Posts
Flash All games versus progamers: 33 wins 13 losses 71.7% Official Kespa matches: 27 wins 12 losses 69.2% (most wins this season) OSL: 3 wins 2 losses, lost in the quarter-finals to Practice MSL: 7 wins 2 losses, in the semi-finals against ForGG Proleague: 17 wins 8 losses (most wins this season) GomTV Invitational: 6 wins 1 loss, in the quarter-finals against Memory Best All games versus progamers: 22 wins 5 losses 81.5% Official Kespa matches: 22 wins 5 losses 81.5% (2nd most wins) OSL: 10 wins 2 losses, in the finals against July MSL: Failed to qualify (lost to Lucifer in Survivor Tournament before the season began) Proleague: 12 wins 3 losses (joint 4th most wins) GomTV Invitational: Did not participate Jaedong All games versus progamers: 29 wins 14 losses 67.4% Official Kespa matches: 21 wins 11 losses 65.6% (3rd most wins) OSL: 0 wins 2 losses, failed to qualify for the final 16 with successive defeats against Casy and Backho MSL: 10 wins 2 losses, in the finals Proleague: 11 wins 7 losses (joint 6th most wins) GomTV Invitational: 8 wins 3 losses, in the semi-finals against YoonJoong Obviously Flash is having a season of his lifetime here (the kid is young, so he could outperform himself in the upcoming seasons, a very scary thought). If he wraps the season up with an MSL trophy, it'll go down in history as one of the most dominant performances in a season. Well, his season already has been tremendous, but it'll be a shame if he ends the season without any individual or proleague trophies because he was getting spread a little too thin. Best's out of the world season has gone pretty much unnoticed because of Flash, but he has basically swept the floor with everyone in every competition he entered. I think he could very well end up this season as a individual league champion with a proleague victory to boot just like Jaedong last season, if the post season goes well for him. Obviously Jaedong had much greater schedule demands (Jaedong's record last season was a mindboggling 53-20 in all matches, and 44-17 in official matches), but it would be a phenomenal feat nonetheless. Jaedong has had a poor season in comparison with his last. Can't blame him though. In fact, this season has been a testament to Jaedong's class as a player besides his god given fundamentals which is visibly still the best in the scene. I thought with his early exit in the OSL and the harsh reality of not being able to go up against terrans on some of the god awful maps used this season would spell the end of Jaedong as a top performing player. Thank god I was wrong. His manager made a bright move by not suiciding Jaedong against terrans in the proleague and Jaedong showed his depth as a player by overcoming Hwasin in the quarter-finals of the MSL. An MSL triumph would be so sweet as it would be giving the finger to the map pool that made this season so miserable for the zergs. I'm a pessimist by nature though, and I believe that it what Jaedong performed against Hwasin was a total miracle. Jaedong has shown that he can deal it when maps say no to standard zerg play, but I mean, the odds are still stacked against him. This season has been pretty good so far. The odd thing is, the lack of zergs really does seem to elevate the overall entertainment level. The overall picture of masses of protoss and terrans with the best of the zerg battling for survival does well with audience I guess. I still hate the map pool though. I mean when you have a player of Jaedong’s caliber not being able to play for his team because the odds are so stacked against him, you know something isn’t right. I think people should look at the number of games by a particular race on a proleague map before checking out the scores between races because that’s just as, if not more important when it comes to exposing racial imbalance. The so-called zerg haven, Blue Storm, is a pretty balanced map in my eyes (even the progamers agree with me) because all races have played on it. Whoever played better normally won. Maps like Othello, Wurthering Heights and Colosseum are terrible maps in terms of balance in my opinion, not because of the race scores, but because zergs NEVER play on it unless they absolutely have to. God it was SO frustrating having to see Jaedong hold hands with Lomo with his teammate playing someone Jaedong could have RAPED SILLY on a better balanced map. Um... summarizing a very long post, I gues I just wanted to say Jaedong's mental strength was as strong as ever, and that everyone succumbs to crazy schedule demands and gay maps. It was the schedule demands that prevented Jaedong from looking as powerful as he really was last season, and the GAY maps that prevented him from doing so this season, though he had more to him than I thought because some players would kill to have the season he is having right now. | ||
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shadobiii
3 Posts
i really want to watch some of the matches you speak of. can someone mail me some replays ? | ||
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G5
United States2906 Posts
jaedong is better then flash though imo and I loved this quote "Up until yesterday, I had no confidence. My winning percentage was 0%. I lost every time. So I told my coach, "I lose a lot in practice. I have no confidence" and he replied, "Admit that you are not the top class and tackle it". And he also said, "Choi Yeon-Sung the captain's win has the biggest influence in the team". Thanks to him, I regained my confidence. I prepared with the mindset that I will win even if I die." | ||
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FreeDoM[YA]
Canada855 Posts
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JuneWoo
France3 Posts
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kpcrew
Korea (South)1071 Posts
this article is highlighted by the best vs jaedong series in game 2, best made too many cannons early, which turned out to be a blessing in disguise because of jaedong's all-in strategy but in game 3, best lost 2 corsairs early which eventually led to him losing his reaver shuttle without getting a single kill or landing in jaedong's base and then best lost a whole bunch of corsairs and didnt even kill jaedong's overlord at 3oclock i think it was best jumped and you could just see him fall apart | ||
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GangstaStarJordan420
Afghanistan4 Posts
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