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Aotearoa39261 Posts
On June 12 2008 12:15 ScarFace wrote:
yeah I think its a load of crap when people say Jaedong hasnt declined since he faced flash. What is it, 2-6 vs terran in the last bit? Statistics dont lie. The 2nd best damn player in the game doesn't have bad luck, not to the extent where hes 2-6. Mind is not an amazing tvz player- I do think hes getting better, but hes not even close to one of the best, and that certainly does not excuse Jaedongs shitty play. As to Hwasin; yes Jaedong had a bad mouse in one of the matches, but he still lost the other, Ruby he went all in muta harass with low econ- stupid, he was trying to prove something. And so on, and so on.
To say that Jaedong has just has bad luck is naive, so is blaming the maps. Jaedong is losing because [at least in his zvt] hes lost something in him. I think this will spread, and Jaedong will do what savior did. Go fairly far in a league or two, get eliminated, and collapse entirely. Jaedong may be doing this right now against Hwasin, though he may last a little longer. Its not a question of if he collapses anymore, its a question of when. Well said good sir, and i'd just like to point out this is exactly what happened to savior. (i think i did this in the article anyway). After losing a crushing series (or two in JD's case) Savior still looked Strong (ie beating Casy in Shinhan Masters) but he just wasn't the same anymore. He lost to FBH and Iris in the quarterfinals of MSL and OSL respectively, which basically dabbed out all hope. Jaedong was crushed by Casy and Backho of all people and he will lose in the quarters of this MSL just like savior did. Jaedong's coming down to earth - just wait and see.
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Osaka27118 Posts
Im just standing on the sideline, enjoying the conversation.
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I loved this read.
Would read again
GREAT JOB PLEXA! 
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I shed a little tear when Savior came up...or as real men would say, my eyeball started sweating
Good read good read
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It's true that in general terrans are better equiped to defeat zerg, but I believe the match up can be balanced with the right maps. It's not going to happen if you keep pressuring the zerg to change by forcing disadvantages onto them.
I mean little things like the placement of minerals, the amount of space behind the mineral line can really sway things. Have you noticed how many of these new maps, or the modified versions of the older versions have deliberately hampered any chances of mutalisk harassment being effective against terrans? The real fight between zergs and terrans begins once zergs reach their hive tech. After that, whoever multitasks better, controls their armies better and makes better decision wins. It's something Jaedong excels at.
The thing is, while terrans only need their natural to get the arsenal necessary to battle zergs, zergs need their 3rd gas to do the same. The current maps have allowed terrans to take their natural with no fear of mutalisk harassment, and the equation of 2 base terrans against 3 gas zergs has collapsed completely. It's not just the terran players adjusting their barrack numbers or turret placements, but mappers giving zerg the finger and we're left with "well... can't we try out queens?". Queens won't do jack. No innovations are going to help the zergs if mappers are stripping zergs of the bare necessities that makes ZvT playable on this level.
I just mentioned protoss because the mineral count in today's maps has been carefully managed so that protoss can take their natural against zergs without having to strain themselves. It's an equation that musn't be touched. Be it sair reaver, sair dt, sair speed zeals and numerous other variations that progamers experiment with. Protoss need that 2nd gas. One base play against zerg is not playable at this level (excluding cheese). Whatever the next evolution for PvZ may be, they need their 2nd gas. The sad thing is. The mineral count that makes PvZ playable has made ZvT hell with the mappers making things extra difficult for mutalisk harassment. The relatively high mineral count has made it impossible for zergs to do anything with these mineral line placement since terrans have learned to start off with mass barracks, marines and turrets. You give protoss players to necessities to start innovating by allowing their 2nd gas, but somehow zergs are supposed to innovate in order to earn their bare necessities against terrans these days.
It's frustrating because this has made it a suicide for any managers to send their zerg players. So we're left with a protoss and terran dominating the gaming scene with only a handful of top level zergs barely scraping on, and promising new zerg players left to play on team games. Count the number of 1v1 games in terrans and protoss players. Then count those involving zergs. It's frighteningly low. There's more to the eye than just map statistics. The cream of the crop for zerg are playing against token terran players and still can't come out with a decent score. Maybe I'm over reacting here, but there's the current map pool is playing more of a factor to Jaedong's current performance than many acknowledge. 40-25 in favour of terrans so far this season. I don't expect it to be any better.
I mentioned Oov as an example of what happens if zergs are left to play off 2 gas. July is as good as it gets when it comes to 2 hatchery management. He ultimately failed to overcome Oov's fast expo play. Savior didn't overcome Oov because he utilized new units, he overcame Oov because he created the manual that enabled zergs to handle the fast expoing terran. The terran manual hasn't changed a bit. It's the essentially unchanged except some refinements in details. With terrans adapting to Savior's brilliant plan, it was no longer possible to buy time for the 3rd gas that led to hive without refinements from zerg. GGPlay did that. Whereas Savior started to struggle to carry out his once trusty manual because of his lacking fundamentals, GGPlay maximized his mutalisk harassment to punish terrans that pushed out to pressure zerg without adequate preparations. Godly mutalisk harassment became the key step to buying the time required for zerg to be on an even footing with terrans.
Jaedong flourished under this setting. His mutalisk control was more than enough to buy time for his 3rd gas and hive tech. Once he got the tools necessary to battle the 2 gas terran, he brushed off challengers with his astonishing game play. I believe what really is punishing Jaedong right now is the fact that with these maps the manual zergs go by are no longer followable no matter how godly your mutalisk control is, all because mappers have said a big no no to mutalisk harassment. I'd like to see how protoss players would be doing against if mappers were to make it difficult as hell for zergs to get that early expansion.
I acknowledge that Flash has the mind that gives him the head start before the game even begins. Was it enough to overcome Jaedong? I disagree with you here that Jaedong's defeat in the GSI is a testiment of that. Jaedong ended the season with the best winning rate, most individual league titles and a proleague victory to boot. Losing the deciding game in the quarter finals of the OSL must have hurt, but I believe the GSI is too low in the hierachy of things to give us any indication of what is to come afterwards. I'd imagine Jaedong must have spent sleepless nights over his defeat in the OSL, but the GSI, for all its cash prizes, was an "unofficial tournament". His performance in that tournament, not just against Flash, was not the amazingly well prepared Jaedong we saw in the OSL/MSL or in the proleague.
His manager mentioned Jaedong had next to no time preparing for the individual leagues due to his postseason schedule. I don't think preparing for the GSI the top of the "to do list" for Jaedong at that time. We can't draw too much conclusions from it in my opinion. As for Savior, well, he is Savior. I think you're being a little unfair on Jaedong if looking human comared to Savior during his prime is a fault of his. Jaedong is almost nothing without his monstrous mechanics (this season's maps nullifies Jaedong before his mechanics can even kick in). Savior was left for dead during the end of his reign but still pulled through. In game 5 against Hwasin, for exmaple, Hwasin would have killed him if he tried to play his best normal game, but Savior tricked Hwasin into using too many scans to check for expansions knowing his "no expansion = no win" patterns. Hwasin lost the game without ever knowing Savior had no intentions of playing normally until the last minute. Jaedong doesn't have this magic (well not the this extent at least). I know that. But why should we expect miracles just because it happened before?
I think Savior lost his magic because his development stopped after his out of the world play in Shinhan S3. He thought it was over. It took him forever to realize why GGPlay was focusing so much on mutalisks. Terrans were reshaping their manual in order to combat his and by the time Savior started to concentrate on mutliask control, it became a mere necessity in order to keep him in the game. His mechanics were no longer good enough to give him the win against good terrans after his mutalisk play gave way to his hive tech, whereas before terrans didn't know what to do against his hive play.
I do agree the mindset plays a huge part. But I think the trends set by players and maps also play a large part in the progaming scene. It doesn't matter how much Jaedong overcomes Flash mentally, he won't win against him in this map pool. That's how large a factor I believe maps are playing right now. Not because of the slight imbalance we see, but because it is stripping zergs of their manual. New manual, or another method to get that 3rd gas in peace. I think Jaedong is experimenting with queens to buy time, but I think it's a futile experiment.
Ultimately, I think that I agree with you on many accounts, but the minor details we disagree on might be because (as you noticed) I root for the zerg. Keep up the great work, and please write one on Jaedong if he somehow overcomes this ordeal by a miracle (because that's what he needs). 
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nice
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On June 11 2008 03:48 ScarFace wrote:
I love this well written article, but how is FBH one of the greats that propped up after the bonjwa interregnum? He had strong tvz and tvt [he was on quite a streak] but never really had strong tvp, he never really reached the level where you could give him even odds against any person in the game, or even close to it. His tvp doesn't allow it. Sure he was a strong competitor when he was at his height, but I don't think hes comparable to Hwasin or others- he simply was not well rounded enough.
Otherwise INCREDIBLY well written article. I have a question though; Best defeated Flash, probably because of Flash's mindset. He was overconfident. What do you think will happen when they meet again in the OSL? Will his lost to Best be detrimental to him, or will he bounce back? And how could he make such a large mistake, if he wins simply through smart play/champion mindset?
Edit: Just read that nony helped on this, good job m8.
We all admit how rotten FBH's TvP is but that doesn't mean we could deny his other matchups that make up for it. Lets compare him to Hwasin in terms of stats, hwasin's winning percentage is around 57% while FBH is at 55%, pretty close right? So taking into consideration how abysmal FBH's TvP percentage is, it just shows how strong his other matchups are. Showing his true skills with victories over Mind, Savior(2007), Hwasin, Sea and even GGPlay, its hard to doubt how capable he is. He sure isnt the next bonjwa, but he's a pretty solid terran in my book. If you are a T or Z player, then indeed FBH is a force to be reckoned with.
To Plexa and Nony: You guys are amazing, I couldn't agree more. Ever consider writing the power ranks once in a while?
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Aotearoa39261 Posts
Very very good post Letmelose and i agree with a lot of what you said. I'll stop harping on about the side issues and deal with the main thing you brought up - the map pool. Oh if only Daigomi were here..
Let's take a look at the maps from last season's proleauge. Out of the 6 1v1 maps, two of them were Zerg favored. Two Protoss favored, and two Terran favored. Which was a nice mix of everything - yet it didn't exactly allow zergs to thrive either? Zerg's still had a losing record despite 1/3 of the maps being zerg favored. Kwanro and co went to work on the Terran faction on Un'Goro with the 2base ultralisk build, which found relatively good success. And Blue Storm proved to be ridiculously easy to harass off. I had quite the debate with Daigomi about Blue Storm's edge, i maintained that it was not a imbalance rather a feature which Terran's couldn't deal with. Daigomi argued the converse. However, if you take one look at Kwanro vs Canata on Blue Storm it clearly shows the rediculous power of the mutalisk harass on that map. There was nothing Canata did wrong, yet he was crushed. The alterations on Blue Storm were a necessity to give Terran a fighting chance on the map. Because balance works both ways, the map was clearly and painfully Z>>T the changes have made the map more even imo.
Strangely enough, im going to have to draw a comparison between ZvT and PvT. Yes they are fundamentally different matchups but there are lots of similarities. Protoss, for about 1.5 years now, have been using Reaver harass in the same manner as mutalisk harass. Keeping the terran in his main, while killing SCVs and preventing expos and whatnot. Their function is exactly the same. Protoss players have been faced with the same challenges as Zerg players - getting that third base easily while somehow stalling the Terran's advance. And obviously, with chokes becoming harder to use for either form of harass both have had to switch it up. Protoss use the reaver as a means to break any form of early midgame push (see Stork vs Nada on python) rather than exclusively a tool to trap the Terran. Again there is this parallel to Zerg in that the Zerg use their mutalisks similarly. But one has to wonder, are the Zergs doing everything they can with their harass?
This is an interesting question as Zerg's are pushing hive tech sooner and sooner - to the point where Lurkers are skipped altogether (or delayed until defiler as per Jaedong). Formerly, they would rely exclusively on their harass to give them that time delay between Terran moving our and the hive-tech counter. Now that the harass has been, well, largely marginalized by the maps i think Zergs are not making the most of their mutalisks. Zerg's need to play a bit more like PvT and take that third (and fourth) base quick and macro in lurker/ling to start dealing with the first Terran push - using the Mutalisks to snipe valuable units. Thus far there is a lack of this on the proscene imo. Zergs are too readily switching up and leaving themselves vulnerable (seeing as Terrans are getting significantly better timing as of late). Fundamentally, current trends force Zerg players hang on by a thread while their defiler tech gets up. Obviously not many players can do this - it's a difficult thing. They should be changing the micro game into a macro oriented game - like Savior did following the July age with his three hatch revolution.
Jaedong and Luxury are brilliant Zerg players. There is no doubt at all there. But their influence on this generation has lead to an overall weakness in their playstyle. The acute timings and sensitivity in their ZvT style is something that is not easily replicated by other Zergs. Yet they are trying to do this and getting destroyed. JD revived the art of 2hatch; something which is counter productive to the Zerg race as a whole as they have reverted to a micro style over a macro style to combat the new found macro skills of the Terran. With a plethora of young Zerg's trying to imitate this highly volatile style it's no wonder too many lose it in the mid game - never getting to their desired late game. With the maps working against Jaedong's style, there is call for change. And that change has to be a more macro Zerg - analogous to PvT.
The thing about maps are that they have been designed to favor macro play, in an attempt to marginalize micro base play i presume. Ultimately, Zerg havens like Blue Storm and Fantasy which promote the micro style, were altered to fix the cliffs which allowed dazzling, yet imbalanced, mutalisk harass. In doing so the micro style of Jaedong was marginalized and the dynamic of the Zerg race was in turmoil as their was no immediate innovator to take over. Thus far there has been no innovator - just a bunch of hopefuls. To save the Zerg race we don't need to see a change in the maps, the Zergs need a revival. Jaedong's style is unique for Jaedong only - it doesn't suit the rest of the Zerg race; who need a more dependable style.
I still maintain that the idea that mindset is a dominant factor in the games. Jaedong simply could not pull off his style without confidence, else he would be crushed. But the maps and the trends in a race are always going to be oscillating back and forth between races. While the statement surrounding the mental state will always be true. There is a reason Savior overcame the imbalances in the Shinhan 3 map pool - that because he had a perfect mindset. Those "minor" points can be transcended by having a pristine mind as there is always a way to win. Like you pointed out, Savior defeated Hwasin by tricking him in a mental battle - not by playing superiorly. The mental state is just that important, its so strong that is transcends imbalances - and that creates champions.
Again, eager to hear your response
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Hmm great article but I think in 4 months time the "brilliant" Flash build will be as brilliant as FD or 2 fact. Fuck it. It's not unkillable. Stork was uninspired, complacent and just shitty. He didn't rise to the ocassion Flash placed to him. I have great faith that a new protoss will come and roll the shit out of him.
That being said, I love Flash. It's amazing to watch him play, he just always has more and more and more. I cant wait to see the rise of the next player to smash him. You know?
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Aotearoa39261 Posts
On June 12 2008 23:39 MiniRoman wrote:
Hmm great article but I think in 4 months time the "brilliant" Flash build will be as brilliant as FD or 2 fact. Fuck it. It's not unkillable. Stork was uninspired, complacent and just shitty. He didn't rise to the ocassion Flash placed to him. I have great faith that a new protoss will come and roll the shit out of him.
That being said, I love Flash. It's amazing to watch him play, he just always has more and more and more. I cant wait to see the rise of the next player to smash him. You know? Well whats to say that Flash won't rise to the occasion and counter the anti-flash build? creating the anti-anti-Flash build? I dno, but Flash gives me the impressive that i got from oov; just isn't giong to be going away any time soon.. he'll keep innovating until KTF wins the proleauge (which will be never fyi)
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I fully expect Flash to be that kind of champion and that is why I'm waiting for the next person to come kill Flash instead of waiting for Flash to lose (alla I want another Flash, not another Stork). I have a shit load of faith in the Korean progamers. It's been going up and up and up forever.
Plexa lemme ask you this question. I posted it into the ask Mingu thread and I'm curious to what an avid proscene follower thinks. How much further do you think this game can be pushed? Only sooooo many things can be innovated right?  I have a feeling BW will always be my fav game of all time, I simply do.
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I guess I want a second superpower above a falling Jaedong. It'd be sweet if two superpowers rose at opposite sides of the brackets only to collide head on.
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The only map that zergs had a good time on last season was Bluestorm. Maps like Bluestorm and Fantasy are as good as it gets for zergs, so I'm not complaining about these maps. The thing is though, I wasn't particularly fond of the map pool last season either. Complain all you want about Bluestorm, you cannot deny the fact that all matchups were more or less playable on this map. Even non-zerg progamers commented that the better player wins on Bluestorm.
Zerg favouring maps are never really that tough on other races. Take maps like Geometry and Baekmagoji. If ZvT were played on these maps in a similar scale to Bluestorm (didn't happen because zergs didn't dare play on it) I'm certain the results would have been horrendous. Zerg favouring maps are tough on terrans, but terran favouring maps absolutely slaughter zergs. The map pool last season was far from being fair to all three races, it just happened to be better than this season. People are quick to notice any zerg favouring maps (because of the numbers that build up on it because it happens to be playable to other races as well), but are quick to overlook the maps that give zerg players next to no chance of winning.
I think you're perhaps underestimate the power of terrans when zergs are stripped of their basic necessities. Maps have allowed terrans to roam free with just a couple of well placed turrets to secure their bases. Third gas for zerg holds way more importance in the matchup against terrans than it does for protoss players. What the mappers stripped away here is the very foundations to the manual that Savior (and GGPlay later on) created. No mutalisk harassment. No buying time. No time means no game for zergs. I'm not asking for cliffs that allow zergs to mutalisk harasss his opponent to death here, I simply want terrans to stay put in their base while zergs take their 3rd gas or get punished for it. Current maps do not punish terrans for not staying in their base.
I'm no fan of zerg players mutalisk harassing his opponent to death, but how many times have we seen terran players fast tech to vultures and wraiths with the zerg opponent looking totally helpless? Kwanro focused heavily on killing the fast expanding Canata, and executed it with perfect micro. It left Canata helpless just like any other aggressive builds by any races would have supposing it was executed with such precision. We see players looking totally helpless when their opponents play that great. When terran players micro their troops perfectly to slaughter multiple groups of zerg troops with minimal losses, it's amazing micro, but when zergs do it, many people cry out imbalance. I say to such people - deal with it, if you can't stop great mutalisk micro, you deserve to lose because you played worse. Hwasin, for example, is excellent at minimizing losses to mutalisks raids. Canata didn't make any huge mistakes. But why do we have to take for granted that terrans must do something wrong in order to lose against zergs?
Jaedong also frequently played mutalisk heavy builds and killed many terran players who couldn't wasn't up to par with their mnm micro. Even a multitasking monster like Jaedong don't take his eyes off his mutalisks when investing so heavily on the harass. The workers he makes doesn't work, lurker upgrades and mutalisk production are done by hot keys. He knows by experience when the terran player is focusing on his troops and when he is doing something else. Hwasin lets his macro slip up a little if his zerg opponent starts to focus heavily on the mutalisk harass in order to minimize his losses. The players that lost to Jaedong purely by mutalisks deserved to lose because they thought a handful of mnm and turrets with minimal attention could stop Jaedong focusing his all on his mutalisks. No imbalance here.
I don't have a problem with the fact that mappers are have made it impossible for zergs to simply mutalisk raid his terran opponents to death (though I don't see what's wrong with punishing terran players of lesser skill). What I do have a problem with is when they take it a step further and make it impossible for zergs to keep terran in his base while he takes his 3rd gas in peace. This messes up the balance between the races so bad I don't think anyone's going to come up with a solution until the maps get fixed.
You can't force change on the players when you make it impossible for them to play the game on an even footing. Taking 3rd gas off zergs is like forcing protoss players to play off one base against zergs. Of course if a new textbook method of playing ZvT was possible to make I would have no problems. I'd welcome the change. But it is my belief that Stacraft has almost reached the end of its evolution when it comes to progaming level play. And the equations for each matchup have been figured out. It's fast expansions for every single race. You can't touch this. No natural means no game. Zergs need one more condition against terrans though. Third gas. Take their third gas away and you're left with fast expanding terrans versus fast expanding zergs who can't get 3rd gas. Brings memories of Oov versus zergs circa 2004. It ain't pretty. The only way zergs have figured out to get the 3rd gas up and running in time is to keep terrans in their base with their mutalisk harassment. When you're taking away this ability, you're basically sentencing death to the zergs.
Mindset creates champions, transcends imbalances, but all this means nothing when these imbalances have touched the most fundamental needs of your race.
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Aotearoa39261 Posts
On June 13 2008 00:44 MiniRoman wrote:Plexa lemme ask you this question. I posted it into the ask Mingu thread and I'm curious to what an avid proscene follower thinks. How much further do you think this game can be pushed? Only sooooo many things can be innovated right? I have a feeling BW will always be my fav game of all time, I simply do. When Nada brought out his SK Terran and demolished every fucking zerg on the planet we cried - 'oh, SK Terran is the perfect Terran, Zerg will never be able to overcome it'. Then Savior came with his talents and topped him. Whenever we become complacent and think there is nothing left to innovate, change or explore some gifted player comes along as shows us otherwise.
Given the infinite mapping possibilities and the fact that new things are still being invented, even today, there is no bound as to how far we can push this game.
@ Letmelose
I don't know if mappers are making it impossible for Zerg's to take a third gas. If you look at some of the maps today, the third gas is rather obscurely located. Take Fantasy, a Zerg paradise, where the third gas is either an island or a main; hardly an easy gas to take. Yet Zergs do well on it. Take Blue Storm, another map which doesn't have an easy to get 3rd Gas (12/6 or the corners - all rather exposed and separate from the main). Un'Goro has a really easy to get main which is nice and sheltered - yet 2 base Ultralisk was the most prominent build. Let's take some non-Zerg favored maps. Say, Zodiac, where the third (and forth) gases are relatively easy to attain (in comparison to the other maps) - there is a 66% Terran winrate on this map despite the favorable gas positioning. Not happy with Zodiac? Try Monty Hall, Katrina - hell what about Loki? All are Terran favored despite the really easy third gas.
Zergs tend to do better, statistically, on maps with 2 gases and an mineral only. Perhaps that's why Andromeda is a Zerg map (although Protoss are working hard to change that  ) as more Zergs have been sent out than any other race. So while you argue that this third gas is such a necessity for the Zerg, the results just don't coincide with your argument. Perhaps it is not the third gas itself, rather the positioning of the third gas? An extra, easy, gas allows the Terran to produce more Science Vessels - which ultimately kill defilers by the handful. While a mineral only reduces the possible Vessel count by reducing the Gas supply. Zerg of course can expand anywhere they damn well please because of their fundamental design - meaning that even an obscure third gas is attainable. Of course, an out of the way base is difficult for a Terran to get at with a group of mutalisks roaming about (due to timing, and exposing himself) so perhaps that is what is problematic with the maps (the fact that most promote an easy third gas)?
Coming to this idea about Mutalisks harass to death, which is something i find particularly amusing and fun to watch. There are certain natural formations which allow Mutalisks to be twice as effective than on other formations. For example, take Xenosky's natural from Fantasy - the high ground behind the CC (and so close to the CC) obscures the line of site of MnM making mutalisks twice as hard to pick off and hit. To effectively counter this they need to float a build up to see - something which will either delay upgrades or halt production (ie lose lose situation). Those natural formations are simply imbalanced and need to be rectified. Blue Storm has such a natural formation - and needed to be fixed. There's nothing stopping Zerg from mutalisk harassing someone to death on a map thats not designed in this way (Kwanro vs Light @ Loki for instance) but it just means than an obvious imbalance is removed.
Keeping Terrans in their main is something which Mutalisks are designed to do. I think we both agree on this point. However map design and gas location is critical to determine how effective that is. How feasible is it for Mutalisk harass to prevent the Terran from taking a third gas on Katrina? Not very. Same goes for Zodiac, and just about any other easy third gas map. By increasing the proximity of the third base to the natural it decreases the value of mutalisk harass. While having distant thirds is beneficial to Zerg as the mutalisks are able to maneuver about the map with ease and speed and stop attempts at shutting down the third gas - while being able to harass the Terran; but i've already covered this point in detail.
Mindset creates champions, transcends imbalances, and there are always solutions to a difficult problem. JulyZerg countered the impossible macro of Oov. Savior showed us how to beat SK Terran. All on terrible Zerg maps. Remember, this is Starcraft - there is always more to find if you dig hard enough
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Plexa JD didn't cheese on Katrina and Baekmagoji because he was scared of the mech build maybe if it was in MSL or OSL i could assume that but GSI that is just wrong . He cheesed because Flash cheesed him the first game and JD is the kind of player that likes to give a taste of their own medicine . He couldn't care less for GSI it is because he is dependent on every other league there is there and it counts not just for money and fame but for the team too , so i think that the lost in GSI had nothing to do with his confidence .The influence that JD left on every other player and Flash as the Zerg to beat is huge because there were tons of players cheesing him and even now , but JD is not the type of player who cheeses when he feels he will lose to a mech build if not , unlike Flash who was known as the cheese it self .Asummeing that are you trying to tell me that JD 9 pooled Boxer , because he was not sure he could win otherways . I'm pretty sure he was doing it even for fun with both boxer and Flash for boxer it was intentional but againts Flash it was due him cheeseing on BS. Flash cheesed him because he can't beat him on BS , but JD did it not because he was scared of the mech build not in this tournament atleast but maybe it was for fun or just to give Flash a taste of his own medicine i'm almost 100 % sure about that .Compareing him to savior on the cheese topic ain't right .
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On June 11 2008 20:53 Plexa wrote:Show nested quote +On June 11 2008 18:17 raga4ka wrote:
Not bad i have to disagree with something JD doesn't lack mental state , because of his lost to Flash it is because of his trip to Europe that he didn't practise as much as him this season . He will stay the best zerg and arguably the best player for now . After a game that JD losses , he normaly comes at you even harder .Last season everyone took the first game from JD in the MSL but no one was even 1 game close to eliminate him thats the proof and that is why i will always vote for JD in series Bo5 or Bo3 . Just flash was lucky and skillful enough to take the series in OSL in what he didn't stand out to much with his mech build , but JD was overconfidant at one point and gave it pretty much away with the base and macro advantage he had , i'm sure that he won't make the same mistake . If not this MSL Jaedong will rape the rest of 2008 !!! While this is true, then why did Jaedong throw the game away? Was it really because he was overconfident? Or because he was taken back by being taken out what was familiar to him? While i don't argue that Jaedong is a superior player mechanically, Flash fucked around with his mind and forced Jaedong into an inferior mental position. From there he became frustrated with Flash - he just couldn't seem to crack him. As i said in the article, the back and forth cheesing in the GSI (especially game 3) shows that Jaedong couldn't find a solution for the mech build and was frustrated. The frustration lead to mistakes and cheese - which never work well together. Jaedong could have won if he had played normally - like he does against any other player - but Flash has him beat on the mind game. Thats why Flash will always beat Jaedong from now on.
As i said in my previous post is that JD didn't give a shit about GSI of all leagues and his cheese on the third game is not due to him beeing scared of the mech build , he can't know that it is even comeing just because there are 2 gasess in base how did you assume he is scared of the mech build even you don't know if Flash was going to mech . Based only on 1MSL game where he lost and has been loseing every single first game in a series and then always coming back to dominate it. Jaedong ain't the type of player who cheeses because he couldn't find a solution on 1 game he lost he actually didn't even practised vs mech build just because he lost 1 freaking game in MSL and owned the next 3.To him in GSI Flash was just another terran , he won't sunk to a level where he cheeses because he wasn't able to rape him 3 - 0 in MSL but just 3 - 1.And that is what i don't agree with the article .
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Aotearoa39261 Posts
It's 7am, so forgive me if i write something stupid :X
On June 13 2008 03:48 raga4ka wrote:
Plexa JD didn't cheese on Katrina and Baekmagoji because he was scared of the mech build maybe if it was in MSL or OSL i could assume that but GSI that is just wrong . He cheesed because Flash cheesed him the first game and JD is the kind of player that likes to give a taste of their own medicine . Okay, what evidence do you have to support that? I mean you could say that about Nada (like in his pre-interview before his match with TT - 'I'll show him how to cheese') but i've seen nothing to indicate that about Jaedong. I'd have to see some interviews or games to make me change my mind about it.
He couldn't care less for GSI it is because he is dependent on every other league there is there and it counts not just for money and fame but for the team too Rather true - but remember that he just out to Flash in OSL - reducing one avenue of revenue. Being the one of the only Lecaf players in the GSI surely he would want to do well to create a good name for the team. After all sponsors love exposure - it's not like he's going to come out and play sub-par shitty games just because the tournament doesn't matter. Just because the tournament was 'unofficial' doesn't make it any less of a big tournament. There was enough $$ there to keep gamers interested and imo he wanted to win. How hard he wanted to win may be questioned however.
... so i think that the lost in GSI had nothing to do with his confidence. Let's assume that LJD is the kind of player who does like to give a player a taste of his own medicine. Obviously, coming off a quarter final loss in the OSL - Jaedong would want to revenge that right? Give Flash a taste of his own medicine? The only difference between the GSI series and the MSL series is the mindset of each player. Their skills had not deteriorated at all, but Flash held the mental high ground and ultimately that spurred him onto victory. Whether or not Jaedong was confident or not doesn't really matter, the point is the Flash has a stronger mental state than Jaedong - which is a comparative term. Thus it doesn't mean that Jaedong was metnally weak, just that Flash was stronger.
The influence that JD left on every other player and Flash as the Zerg to beat is huge because there were tons of players cheesing him and even now, I dno, i can only name Flash and Backho who authentically cheesed him, Flash and Casy used creative non-standard builds. But yes, test of a true champion is his cheese resistivity.
..but JD is not the type of player who cheeses when he feels he will lose to a mech build if not , unlike Flash who was known as the cheese it self .Asummeing that are you trying to tell me that JD 9 pooled Boxer , because he was not sure he could win otherways . I disagree there. Jaedong used a build which increased his winning chances the most. Knowing that Boxer would almost invariable FE on Katrina, 9 pool is a pretty sound choice to get an easy win. He knows he can beat him in a straight up game, but after evaluating all the different strategies he came to the conclusion that 9pool speed was the strongest option. And hey, it was. "Mind Games" is a brilliant article on the notion of cheesing, and i strongly recommend it if you haven't read it already.
I'm pretty sure he was doing it even for fun with both boxer and Flash for boxer it was intentional but againts Flash it was due him cheeseing on BS. Flash cheesed him because he can't beat him on BS , but JD did it not because he was scared of the mech build not in this tournament atleast but maybe it was for fun or just to give Flash a taste of his own medicine i'm almost 100 % sure about that . Like i said before, Jaedong chose his builds so that he would maximize his chances to win against Flash - just as Flash did for the same series. Knowing that Flash would play FE and Mech Jaedong could safely assume that some kind of cheese rush would work - and hey! it did. I dont know if he was scared of the mech build, although he must have realized he had a much better chance of winning by exploiting the standard play of Flash on the map. Against with Baek, a similar thought process must have gone through his mind. Flash however, pulled through with some stunning defensive work. The moment you have Jaedong doubting his skill and thinking he's got a better chance using a risky all in build then you know his mental state has been undermined. If Flash had lost to Jaedong in the OSL i assure you than Jaedong would have crushed him here as well. It all comes down to mind games..
Compareing him to savior on the cheese topic ain't right . I think its a valid comparison on the grounds presented in "Mind Games"
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On June 13 2008 04:08 Plexa wrote:It's 7am, so forgive me if i write something stupid :X Show nested quote +On June 13 2008 03:48 raga4ka wrote:
Plexa JD didn't cheese on Katrina and Baekmagoji because he was scared of the mech build maybe if it was in MSL or OSL i could assume that but GSI that is just wrong . He cheesed because Flash cheesed him the first game and JD is the kind of player that likes to give a taste of their own medicine . Okay, what evidence do you have to support that? I mean you could say that about Nada (like in his pre-interview before his match with TT - 'I'll show him how to cheese') but i've seen nothing to indicate that about Jaedong. I'd have to see some interviews or games to make me change my mind about it. Show nested quote +He couldn't care less for GSI it is because he is dependent on every other league there is there and it counts not just for money and fame but for the team too Rather true - but remember that he just out to Flash in OSL - reducing one avenue of revenue. Being the one of the only Lecaf players in the GSI surely he would want to do well to create a good name for the team. After all sponsors love exposure - it's not like he's going to come out and play sub-par shitty games just because the tournament doesn't matter. Just because the tournament was 'unofficial' doesn't make it any less of a big tournament. There was enough $$ there to keep gamers interested and imo he wanted to win. How hard he wanted to win may be questioned however. Let's assume that LJD is the kind of player who does like to give a player a taste of his own medicine. Obviously, coming off a quarter final loss in the OSL - Jaedong would want to revenge that right? Give Flash a taste of his own medicine? The only difference between the GSI series and the MSL series is the mindset of each player. Their skills had not deteriorated at all, but Flash held the mental high ground and ultimately that spurred him onto victory. Whether or not Jaedong was confident or not doesn't really matter, the point is the Flash has a stronger mental state than Jaedong - which is a comparative term. Thus it doesn't mean that Jaedong was metnally weak, just that Flash was stronger. Show nested quote +The influence that JD left on every other player and Flash as the Zerg to beat is huge because there were tons of players cheesing him and even now, I dno, i can only name Flash and Backho who authentically cheesed him, Flash and Casy used creative non-standard builds. But yes, test of a true champion is his cheese resistivity. Show nested quote +..but JD is not the type of player who cheeses when he feels he will lose to a mech build if not , unlike Flash who was known as the cheese it self .Asummeing that are you trying to tell me that JD 9 pooled Boxer , because he was not sure he could win otherways . I disagree there. Jaedong used a build which increased his winning chances the most. Knowing that Boxer would almost invariable FE on Katrina, 9 pool is a pretty sound choice to get an easy win. He knows he can beat him in a straight up game, but after evaluating all the different strategies he came to the conclusion that 9pool speed was the strongest option. And hey, it was. "Mind Games" is a brilliant article on the notion of cheesing, and i strongly recommend it if you haven't read it already. Show nested quote +I'm pretty sure he was doing it even for fun with both boxer and Flash for boxer it was intentional but againts Flash it was due him cheeseing on BS. Flash cheesed him because he can't beat him on BS , but JD did it not because he was scared of the mech build not in this tournament atleast but maybe it was for fun or just to give Flash a taste of his own medicine i'm almost 100 % sure about that . Like i said before, Jaedong chose his builds so that he would maximize his chances to win against Flash - just as Flash did for the same series. Knowing that Flash would play FE and Mech Jaedong could safely assume that some kind of cheese rush would work - and hey! it did. I dont know if he was scared of the mech build, although he must have realized he had a much better chance of winning by exploiting the standard play of Flash on the map. Against with Baek, a similar thought process must have gone through his mind. Flash however, pulled through with some stunning defensive work. The moment you have Jaedong doubting his skill and thinking he's got a better chance using a risky all in build then you know his mental state has been undermined. If Flash had lost to Jaedong in the OSL i assure you than Jaedong would have crushed him here as well. It all comes down to mind games.. I think its a valid comparison on the grounds presented in "Mind Games"
Aham first JD played Flash 2/3 and 3/3 game in OSL after GSI so your logic fails and he didn't cheese him there . Second why should he cheese flash because he didn't find a solution to one game in MSL and even not knowing that it is comeing based only on 1 game in MSL . No one but Flash himself knew if he was going mech in GSI it was an invitational and just by that i'm 100 % sure that JD cheesed with not a single thought of mech build or Flash , but more about the thought that he was being cheesed himself on Bluestorm. And when he cheesed Boxer he actually lowered his chances of beating him because a cheese can always be defend if scouted. He actually got lucky that was not scouted and was definitely not done to max out his chanses to win JD could have killed Boxer back then with just muta harras.Look how he demolishes cheese in msl done by Lucifer now and Flash's cheese in the final game last MSL you just can't compare MSL/OSL to GSI .Bisu lost shit load of games in GSI and was not playing well but in OSL he was at 100% .Or are you telling me that JD cheesed flash just because flash was up 1 game in OSL NOT ELIMINATED FROM THERE and that he lost 1 game to him in MSL ??????????????You can't say that a lost to Flash killed his confidance he beat him in MSL , if it happens like that then he would be lone gone after his Bo5 with the rock . And what happen after that series he was not ever beaten in a BO5 series not by Toss not by Terran not by zerg and lost a single Bo3 in OSL and not so important Bo3 in GSI .Thats why i think that when JD losses he rapes you even harder and can't be compared to saviors scenario with FBH .
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Jaedong fanboi's FTW. Let's see your savior (no pun intended) prove Plexa wrong. I for one think he's right on the money.
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EPT
