EPTThe Elephant in the Room - Page 32
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Existential
Australia2107 Posts
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Deleted User 3420
24492 Posts
There are plenty of pros that will be great if they switch and take it seriously, and obviously flash or jaedong or bisu have the talent to be the best or near it. But who gives a rats ass. There's also lots of people competitively playing sc2 that never played or took sc1 seriously in the first place. It is absolutely ridiculous to compare the competition in a game that is less than 1 year old to a game that people have been playing professionally for over 10 years. To call the competition in sc2 a "farce" is to call the competition in most every game other than sc:bw a farce, and that's sc:bw elitism at it's finest(and not in a good way). | ||
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Scribble
2077 Posts
On May 12 2011 13:52 Zrana wrote: You didn't mention NaDa or July as much as you should have. Both amazing at sc1 (capable of beating flash/JD at times iirc but not rocking SC2 as hard as you say they should) Different game, different skills. Mechanics mean slightly less, strategy slightly more. Sure some is transferable, but this really seems like more of the same tired old BW was better whine. You say that there are hundreds of players who could come in and dominate SC2 at any moment. Well why haven't they? There's nothing to stop them taking the GSL, TSL and NASL prize pools. More than enough incentive. The answer is that SC2 is still being figured out, and it takes a different sort of player to excel at a young game than a game where the rules have already been written. Also you imply that SC2 is invalid as a sport until we have some godllike figure like Flash. Was football invalid before Beckham, Formula 1 before Schumacher? No, they were still fun to watch. (well i dont like footbH but lots do) I agree whole-heartedly. I'm also not a fan of the "let's compare 1 year old SC2 (or in the case of this article < 1 year old, as a good portion of the argument is based on the results of GSL 1 and 2) to current (12 years old BW," nonsense. Furthermore, the OP emphasizes how poorly Boxer/Nada/July were doing in the past year compared against their overall win rate. Let's assume for a second that 50% w/l (Boxer) and 56% w/l (Nada) is poor, (can't argue about July's though), does anybody honestly believe that these players AT THEIR WORST were any worse AT BW than the rest of the lesser skilled BW pros who switched over? You'd be lying to say they were. Boxer, Nada, or July, at the lowest point in their careers would still have stomped any of the other players criticized in the OP...at BW. So it's safe to say that even if they weren't in peak condition, they were still better BW players, right? And yet, even with that in mind, they are not doing as well as many of their peers who, to this day, they would have destroyed in BW. Honestly, the OP reeks of paper thin logic and BW snobbery, and I'm getting tired of coming to TL and being unable to escape this kind of nonsense everywhere. I love BW, and I love SC2, and I loved this community before it degraded into constant dick measuring about who's game is more valid, or competitive. | ||
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Lemonwalrus
United States5465 Posts
On May 12 2011 17:00 thnikkaman wrote: Why do people say that the skill ceiling on sc2 is low? If anything I would say that the skill floor is higher.. What does that even mean? | ||
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Snaphoo
United States614 Posts
(Keeping in character with the "Elephant in the Room" SC2 analogue to the BW mod's flame-bait OP): (1) What top-flight iCCup players haven't transitioned to SC2 at this point? The cream of the foreign crop has moved on, hasn't it? (2) "Several"? What is the biggest prize purse for the largest non-Korean BW tournament still operating? What kind of audience does it get, numbers-wise, esp. streaming/VODs? (3) And why did TL.net become SC2-based...? (4) As for WCG shuttering BW: Nope. Let me pull the quote for you: A statement from the WCG indicated the decision was made to the use the recent Starcraft sequel, Starcraft 2: Wings of Liberty instead, due to a larger international fanbase. | ||
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twiitar
Germany372 Posts
in SC2 it's more comfortable at the top than in SCBW. Which means that it has to be made uncomfortable for the korean SC2 top in order for them to get better, practice more and achieve a higher level - obviously not something that happens for no reason. I find it funny how IdrA kept on complaining about the practice rhythm of CJ Entus when it seems as if he could've joined any SC2 korean Pro-Team and not had a reason to complain. | ||
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setzer
United States3284 Posts
On May 12 2011 17:01 Executor1 wrote: If players fromm BW slowly start migrating over to sc2 eventually having players like Flash JD will be irrelevant because there will be less and less players to challenge them. As more and more players migrate (even if they are not top top player , fringe a players like you say) eventually BW will fall, im not saying this is going to happen fast but by the time HOTS comes out i think the difference in popularity between brood war and sc2 will be negligible assuming like you say that fringe a teamers start to migrate over to sc2. I really hope we see some of this transitioning soon, im all for seeing higher level games and having some of our sc2 heroes put in their place by a more talented BW generation :D BW is NOT dead in Korea. BW is far more popular there are a lot of indicators: -pcbang time for BW is higher than SC2 -attendance is higher in all avenues -OSL is running mystarleague and has had resounding success Maybe a few A-teamers will switch but I think they will be replaced. SC2 has simply not had the impact in Korea some people originally believed would. | ||
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red4ce
United States7313 Posts
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thnikkaman
19 Posts
It means that it is easier for a new player to control his army and macro and learn the basics. But it still requires the intense dedication that the progamers have to be amazing. | ||
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bennyaus
Australia1833 Posts
On May 12 2011 15:51 Patriot.dlk wrote: These are different games though. Idra says often that he doesn't need to practice his mechanics that much and I believe that to be true. I feel this is also showcased by the success from Sjow and other low-apm players. This game demands less mechanics and more of other kinds of preparations such as sniping and other strategy things. Wc3 had some of their best players switch over and I think it will be fine when more sc1 pros get into sc2. They will be among the best but I'm pretty sure Idra, Naniwa etc will do well against them. Tyler and Ret was considered the two most talented sc1 players or at least among the most talented outside of Korea. They have done well but nothing amazing really (but they might any day) I mean they are in the mix. Sc1 pros will also be in the mix Excellent post. This is why I feel that most of the OP's argument is irrelevant. It is all based under the assumption that there is heavy causation between SC:BW and SC2 results. It even brings up a quote from Guemchi, who is maybe the most top level player to attempt to switch, yet he fails to make the switch because he wasn't able to qualify for a GSL. SC2 is a different game, yes the top players from BW will be top players because they are amazing gamers in general, but if you think A class gamers will be standouts as well? Well, I think that is a completely arguable point and we'll only know when/if they ever switch. | ||
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Deleted User 3420
24492 Posts
He's saying that the basics are easier but that the skill cap isn't necessarily lower. | ||
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Mordiford
4448 Posts
I think it means you can't stand up, because the floor of the room is higher. Also, there's an elephant in it. | ||
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JustPassingBy
10776 Posts
As for my opinion: when I watch sc2, I only care for sc2. so as long as those sc1 players do not switch games, they are off my sc2-radar. | ||
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SmoKim
Denmark10307 Posts
is this real life? about bloody time  | ||
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TheRhox
Canada868 Posts
On May 12 2011 17:01 Zapdos_Smithh wrote: Excellent article! Good for the SC2-strict players who came to TL to read who slag BW cuz "SC2 is a new game blah blah blah", "who cares about BW just some random game", etc.. Next time be a bit more respectful to BW please, most SC2 "pros" were nobodys in BW or either way past their expiration dates (ex. boxer, nada, july). I love both BW and SC2 for reference, though I believe BW doesn't get the respect it deserves from the SC2 crowd. Putting the word "pros" in quotation marks following "SC2" is exactly the kind of condescending attitude that cheapens the accomplishments of great SC2 professionals who undoubtedly work tirelessly in their efforts to bring us the excellent games that they do. | ||
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Koshi
Belgium38799 Posts
On May 12 2011 17:02 travis wrote: SC2 is a different game, and this post is just incendiary. There are plenty of pros that will be great if they switch and take it seriously, and obviously flash or jaedong or bisu have the talent to be the best or near it. But who gives a rats ass. There's also lots of people competitively playing sc2 that never played or took sc1 seriously in the first place. It is absolutely ridiculous to compare the competition in a game that is less than 1 year old to a game that people have been playing professionally for over 10 years. To call the competition in sc2 a "farce" is to call the competition in most every game other than sc:bw a farce, and that's sc:bw elitism at it's finest(and not in a good way). I was waiting for a comment like this. So I don't have to say it myself. There will be so many new players coming into SCII that in 1-2 years there will be players probably just as good as a Savior/July in their glory periods. And in 4-5 years there will be many players just as good as Jaedong/Flash. They are coming. | ||
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Lemonwalrus
United States5465 Posts
On May 12 2011 17:05 thnikkaman wrote: It means that it is easier for a new player to control his army and macro and learn the basics. But it still requires the intense dedication that the progamers have to be amazing. Then you would say the 'skill floor' is LOWER, not HIGHER. Either way, the 'skill floor' is a dumb topic when talking about pros, since none of the players worth mentioning are anywhere near the floor. | ||
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Kyuki
Sweden1867 Posts
Thanks again, awesome read <3! | ||
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Zlasher
United States9129 Posts
On May 12 2011 16:58 SK.Testie wrote: Bout fuckin time this was written. lol i love this | ||
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H
New Zealand6138 Posts
On May 12 2011 17:02 travis wrote: It is absolutely ridiculous to compare the competition in a game that is less than 1 year old to a game that people have been playing professionally for over 10 years. To call the competition in sc2 a "farce" is to call the competition in most every game other than sc:bw a farce, and that's sc:bw elitism at it's finest(and not in a good way). Except the top competition in SC2, as written in the article, played SC1 professionally for years.. and sucked at it. | ||
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