|
On May 12 2011 17:03 Scribble wrote:Show nested quote +On May 12 2011 13:52 Zrana wrote:
You didn't mention NaDa or July as much as you should have. Both amazing at sc1 (capable of beating flash/JD at times iirc but not rocking SC2 as hard as you say they should)
Different game, different skills. Mechanics mean slightly less, strategy slightly more. Sure some is transferable, but this really seems like more of the same tired old BW was better whine.
You say that there are hundreds of players who could come in and dominate SC2 at any moment. Well why haven't they? There's nothing to stop them taking the GSL, TSL and NASL prize pools. More than enough incentive.
The answer is that SC2 is still being figured out, and it takes a different sort of player to excel at a young game than a game where the rules have already been written.
Also you imply that SC2 is invalid as a sport until we have some godllike figure like Flash. Was football invalid before Beckham, Formula 1 before Schumacher?
No, they were still fun to watch. (well i dont like footbH but lots do) I agree whole-heartedly. I'm also not a fan of the "let's compare 1 year old SC2 (or in the case of this article < 1 year old, as a good portion of the argument is based on the results of GSL 1 and 2) to current (12 years old BW," nonsense. Furthermore, the OP emphasizes how poorly Boxer/Nada/July were doing in the past year compared against their overall win rate. Let's assume for a second that 50% w/l (Boxer) and 56% w/l (Nada) is poor, (can't argue about July's though), does anybody honestly believe that these players AT THEIR WORST were any worse AT BW than the rest of the lesser skilled BW pros who switched over? You'd be lying to say they were. Boxer, Nada, or July, at the lowest point in their careers would still have stomped any of the other players criticized in the OP...at BW. So it's safe to say that even if they weren't in peak condition, they were still better BW players, right? And yet, even with that in mind, they are not doing as well as many of their peers who, to this day, they would have destroyed in BW. Honestly, the OP reeks of paper thin logic and BW snobbery, and I'm getting tired of coming to TL and being unable to escape this kind of nonsense everywhere. I love BW, and I love SC2, and I loved this community before it degraded into constant dick measuring about who's game is more valid, or competitive.
but thats not what its about
its saying look out theres so much more to come, and that the sc2 crowd has yet to even begin to see whats in store
if mc can be a champion, then what in the hell would flash do with the game
were going to see some of the craziest most exciting things we cant even imagine soon
also note that at their worst (well actually best, they plaed better as the years went on its just everyone else played far far better), yes the would lose to mc in a straight up game. Why, because they were bad. MVP honestly is the best out of all of them. So please listen to us when we say they are awful at brood war. Did they blaze a path, yes, did they dominate at their time, yes, but these days any b-teamer would destroy any tournament from the age of boxer and nada
|
On May 12 2011 16:57 Sanchez_ wrote:
This article has little relevance to almost anyone.Yes top BW players are better rts players than top SC2 players. Yes no current top BW player has switched. Yes they would be the top SC2 players if they switched.
There is no secret you are uncovering. Those that watch both scenes already know and for those that just watch one or the other it makes little difference.
The current best SC2 players are still the best SC2 players even if in the future some new players might switch and be better it really makes no difference for those watching SC2. There is currently no reason for the best BW players to switch as they are making much more money where they are. If circumstances change and they do switch and dominate the SC2 scene then SC2 supporters will get behind them.
This.
For me this just seems(!) like a pretty angry Article with no Point whatsoever.
Also I dont recall Tastosis saying that the three GSL Winners mentioned were all Sick at BW. In fact what they said about Nestea was the complete opposite.
|
On May 12 2011 17:00 thnikkaman wrote:
Why do people say that the skill ceiling on sc2 is low?
If anything I would say that the skill floor is higher..
the floor is the same, but there are escalators to get to the Diamond and Master suites. roof is only accessible via stairwell. also you can use frequent stayer bonuses at many locations from EU to NA to SEA.
|
Not really any elephant in the room imo, and calling the current scene a farce is a bit to strong aint it?
The fact that there are tons of extremely skilled BW pros that could switch over and stand a high chance of if not dominating then at least establish themself as top top players should be common knowledge.
What i disagree with is the notion that this would somehow make the current scene less proffesional, i would draw a parralell to Warcraft 3. One could argue that the likes of Flash could switch over to Wc3 and dominate within a few months aswell. Did this mean that all Wc3 competitions are a farce?
If you look over to the FPS scene it is the same thing, there are players who in thier respective game holds or have held a commanding position. If they would switch over they would have a high chance of making it to the top in other FPS games.
I do not think you should judge the SC2 scene by saying the BW scene has better player. Judge it by itself, do you feel that the current playing field is lacking, not in comparison to BW but in itself.
If the answer to that is yes, then you can go ahead and ask why. One possible answer might be found in your analysis in the OP. But now i feel you are looking at it from the wrong direction, BW has better players and better training regime, therefore SC2 is a farce.
Still, interesting read!
|
One thing I am taking from this is that the commonly accepted top players in SC2 are not of the same quality as the BW who could potentially make the transition. Barring past performance, this is because the current players do not practice or perform at the level of their BW counterparts.
ie: BW practice non-stop and work to refine every little thing in a ridged and systematic way.
SC2 I'm going to do this my own way and see what happens (not hardcore mass practices).
Correct me if I'm wrong (its an infernal time and I'm on meds) SlayerS (Boxer's current team) is practicing like a BW team is is kicking ass. I'm stating that as a fact not as a correlation. Their players are doing really well and they practice a lot, not they are doing well because they practice a lot.
I think that as more players/teams transition into a more formal system of training the skill level of SC2 will rise, but as inferred by OP this won't happen till BW players come over and kick the crap out of the current SC2 players with their better training and habits.
TLDR (and possibly more sensical): SC2 korea pro-gamers don't practice as hard as they should for being on top, and once BW comes over and shows them how to do it expect BW to be on top not the current SC2 top.
|
Fascinating read. I used to watch Brood war (and still play, I'm still terrible XD) and switched to watching Sc2 now. Being a hard-core Nada fan, I'm glad to see him still playing and doing well. But I can feel a rumble... it is quiet and soft. When Jaedong switches (because he says he most certainly will), and if Flash switches, everything will become deathly quiet. And then a huge roar would be heard as huge gears shift, and the Tyrant and Ultimate Weapon smash into the scene.
No matter how I look at it, there are still mechanics missing from Sc2 solid play. It is indeed a young game in progress, and all the more exciting for that. I sincerely hope that those competing currently will practice enough that they will established a strong position for when the wave comes. Because when it comes, it'll be a hurricane.
|
Don't really see the point of this post. Kinda seems like a very long "just wait until JD and flash start playing sc2" to me.
|
Yay for new final edit! ;D
|
On May 12 2011 17:07 Lemonwalrus wrote:Show nested quote +On May 12 2011 17:05 thnikkaman wrote:On May 12 2011 17:03 Lemonwalrus wrote:On May 12 2011 17:00 thnikkaman wrote:
Why do people say that the skill ceiling on sc2 is low?
If anything I would say that the skill floor is higher.. What does that even mean? It means that it is easier for a new player to control his army and macro and learn the basics. But it still requires the intense dedication that the progamers have to be amazing. Then you would say the 'skill floor' is LOWER, not HIGHER. Either way, the 'skill floor' is a dumb topic when talking about pros, since none of the players worth mentioning are anywhere near the floor.
No, you would say higher. Floor is beginning point. Ceiling is end point. If it's easier at the start, then the floor is higher.
On May 12 2011 17:08 eggs wrote:Show nested quote +On May 12 2011 17:00 thnikkaman wrote:
Why do people say that the skill ceiling on sc2 is low?
If anything I would say that the skill floor is higher.. the floor is the same, but there are escalators to get to the Diamond and Master suites. roof is only accessible via stairwell. also you can use frequent stayer bonuses at many locations from EU to NA to SEA.
LMAO
|
On May 12 2011 17:07 H wrote:Show nested quote +On May 12 2011 17:02 travis wrote:
It is absolutely ridiculous to compare the competition in a game that is less than 1 year old to a game that people have been playing professionally for over 10 years. To call the competition in sc2 a "farce" is to call the competition in most every game other than sc:bw a farce, and that's sc:bw elitism at it's finest(and not in a good way). Except the top competition in SC2, as written in the article, played SC1 professionally for years.. and sucked at it.
Which doesnt mean anything if it isnt put into perspective with other "sucking" BW players switching.
|
Speechless..
I caught the tail end of BW in its glory days so I may not be justified to say this, but I cannot wait until the day that what you are saying is a reality.
|
As the game is now, you will not have genius players dominating everyone with absolute certainty. Build Order victories are just too common compared with BW, and as a young game SC2 is prone to handing out victories to the guy that came up with a better plan beforehand.
This is another reason the top BW pros are not switching over. The game is young and ripe with un-discovered strategies that could take a win away from you, and many would argue it's also more volatile than BW(see IdrA's regular rants about zerg scouting for example).
|
On May 12 2011 17:05 red4ce wrote:
Damn intrigue. Spitting out a heavy dose of the truth. Good history lesson for the SC2 noobies around here to learn.
This is exactly what this OP was. BW fans feeling the need to belittle SC2 because increasingly, they feel (apparently, given the hostility I see towards SC2 and its fans) that their game is just that-- a history lesson.
|
Russian Federation4405 Posts
Thanks for the article, reading it now.  And ![[image loading]](http://www.teamliquid.net/staff/R1CH/Happy2.gif) to you in return. 
|
|
|
Makes me sad to see such a rant on the front page of TL, i thought this was a place to rejoice at how awesome SC is in general . Not a place to bash at the new guy in class. Of course the top BW pros would be good at sc2 if they switched. I dont get how that means that the current competition in sc2 is a farce.
|
On May 12 2011 17:10 Kreb wrote:Show nested quote +On May 12 2011 17:07 H wrote:On May 12 2011 17:02 travis wrote:
It is absolutely ridiculous to compare the competition in a game that is less than 1 year old to a game that people have been playing professionally for over 10 years. To call the competition in sc2 a "farce" is to call the competition in most every game other than sc:bw a farce, and that's sc:bw elitism at it's finest(and not in a good way). Except the top competition in SC2, as written in the article, played SC1 professionally for years.. and sucked at it. Which doesnt mean anything if it isnt put into perspective with other "sucking" BW players switching.
Well it's kind of hard to ignore just HOW scary Flash and Jaedong are. If you watched how they trap opponents in their own minds, then you wouldn't so easily dismiss the power of the BW S class. A select few I would say are beyond S class. I am not even a fan of Jaedong, but I respect his fortitude and his determination. Anyone who have seen S class BW players play can feel a shiver in the air...because they are bone-chilling good. Too good in fact, it's like a versing a Tank with a Rifle.
|
On May 12 2011 17:07 H wrote:Show nested quote +On May 12 2011 17:02 travis wrote:
It is absolutely ridiculous to compare the competition in a game that is less than 1 year old to a game that people have been playing professionally for over 10 years. To call the competition in sc2 a "farce" is to call the competition in most every game other than sc:bw a farce, and that's sc:bw elitism at it's finest(and not in a good way). Except the top competition in SC2, as written in the article, played SC1 professionally for years.. and sucked at it.
Guemchi switched and couldn't qualify for a GSL, then he went back and immediately got back in Stars A team.
The skill sets required to be 'good' at both games are completely different. I would argue that mechanics are less of a deciding factor in the result of games in SC2 and as a results the game is fought on strategy and tactics, which means that players who maybe did not have the best mechanics in other RTS games will be able to compete with top level players from Brood War. I am not saying that Brood War didn't have strategy/tactics on the same level, but more weight is put on those factors in SC2 as mechanics are easier. Therefore, a player who is less mechanically talented/less practiced, but has an excellent strategic mind might fare far better in SC2 than Brood War.
I do agree that the S class pro-gamers will be excellent in SC2 if they ever switched, because they are excellent in all factors of an RTS.
|
On May 12 2011 14:40 thesundowners wrote:Show nested quote +On May 12 2011 14:26 FawkingGoomba wrote:
It does because the people who are currently at the top of SC2 are not (relatively) good at RTS. It's not that what they do isn't entertaining, it's just not (relatively) impressive.
And what BW players do isn't (relatively) impressive compared to the miracle of human flight, what exactly is your point here? Why aren't people allowed to just admire SC2 play on it's own merits?
If one is used to seeing something better, seeing something less good than that is a step back.
|
On May 12 2011 16:38 mahnini wrote:Show nested quote +What’s your point?
I am saying that there are 300 current pros and semi-pros that have the potential to come in and dominate SC2 at any moment, with a latency of a few months from the day they switch. Among this group there are a notable few that CRUSH any other players in terms of raw talent and/or work ethic and/or ability to learn. This knowledge cheapens any form of competition I see right now, no matter how much I try to enjoy the games. did you even read to the conclusion? do you disagree with this? can you bring up some points? example games? ANYTHING?
The thing is people have been bringing up points to show that the argument is flawed logically. The argument may still be correct, no one can really say since this is an article based upon a future conjecture. But the argument is inherently flawed. Just as an example, what games could you bring up since this is all conjecture?
Here are some points brought up that I thought were pretty good:
On May 12 2011 16:28 Wargizmo wrote:
If the theory that dominance in one game automatically translates to dominance over the same players in another game then you would never see Moon or Grubby beaten in SC2 by other less skilled former WC3 pros, because they're just 'better' right? Wrong, you see lesser WC3 pros like Polt and Check doing much better.
The truth is they're different games, and I think MC's comment "I think flash would do well in SC2" is spot on, he would do well, but would he dominate? you can't make that call based on performance in a different game.
On May 12 2011 16:31 Kreb wrote:
Oh, and I found a really the whole writeup lacking one thing. And that is a list of BW players on similar level of skill as MVP/Nestea who switched and did NOT do well. Thats what puts MVP/Nesteas achievements into perspective. Were they the only ones on their level switching, and they still dominate SC2? Well then that indeed points towards there being a lot of hidden SC2 potential among BW players. But were there 50, or 200 other players on that level also switching? Well in that case, their SC2 achievements suddenly become a lot more impressive and we can indeed conclude that it IS a very different game and the new other game called SC2 just fit MVP/Nestea better and they were better prepared to dominate than all the other switchers. And downplaying their achievemtns where so many others failed would be a very risky thing to do.
But just picking the few players who have distinguished themselves from the masses, listing their lackluster BW careers and then downplaying them based on that really doesnt look at thing from other perspectives. You're literally gonna end up with the exact same conclusion no matter which players dominate SC2 unless they were top of the top BW players.
SC2 dominated by BW A-teamer? Conclusion: There tens or hundreds of other A-teamers who would dominate too.
SC2 dominated by BW B-teamer? Conclusion: There hundreds or thousands of other B-teamers who would dominate too.
SC2 dominated by someone less than a BW B-teamer? Conclusion: There thousands and more thousands of other A/B-teamers and others who would dominate too.
See the problem with those conclusions? Unless Flash switches and dominates, you end up with the same conclusion.
Add a comprehensive list of players switching and failing. That will really put thing into nice perspective.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
