EPTThe Elephant in the Room - Page 31
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Fusionz
United States54 Posts
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gk_ender
United States717 Posts
On May 12 2011 16:51 Snaphoo wrote: Can you tell me about the thriving BW scene outside of Korea? What major tournaments it has? How man new players are picking it up (on average)? Why TSL3 was SC2-based? Why WCG pulled the plug on BW? I think it's an equally provocative OP, and arguable more factually supported. But I digress-- is such an OP anything other than flame-bait? Is it verifiable? I didn't see any evidence in this OP proving that a transition from BW equates to instant skill in SC2. Yes, NesTea and MC and MVP were BW pros-- but they have been playing SC2 for nearly a full YEAR now: they are more SC2 players than BW players right now. Many SC2 fans are objecting to the idea that BW fans can quickly begin dominating SC2 and tossing out the best of the current SC2 players. There is no proof, no control group, and no evidence beyond quotes like "FLASH PRACTICES ALOT!" no one was saying that there is instant skill, what they were saying was there was a lack of skill, MC and the bunch lack any competent skill in sc1 and they dominate sc2 with what little skill they had. So they are saying, well what about the players who were magnitudes greater than them. literally better in every aspect of the game | ||
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Comeh
United States18919 Posts
On May 12 2011 16:52 J.E.G. wrote: I read the "What's your point?" section and still don't see the point. Lesser players saw and avenue for success and took it; its not that complicated. This is the only non-subjective-taken-out-of-context part of the post. Money will dry up for BW over time, and the heavy weights will transfer to SC2. I'm curious why you think "money will dry out" for scbw - if money hasn't dried out in over 10 years, why would it dry out now? Unless sc2 starts stealing a majority of the scbw crowd, which hasn't been seen to be true in korea at the moment (according to reports), scbw is still the powerhouse over there. Really, the lack of perspective a lot of the newer sc2 users have is quite amazing - they don't really see what an amazing accomplishment scbw in korea truly is, and what an amazing and perfect game it is. It's pretty sad really. Edit: and for those that comment on how scbw is dying - there really hasn't been the level of success that scbw has had either. Until the game is truly established and accomplishes an "esport level" in a country (even in korea, which we haven't really seen it taken over like bw has), then I'm going to consider scbw more successful. | ||
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SkytoM
Austria1137 Posts
But it's more of an opinion so I guess it doesn't matter. | ||
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Thurokiir
United States779 Posts
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TheRhox
Canada868 Posts
On May 12 2011 16:53 fjjotizz wrote: Great read, never gone in to depth with the subject. You kidding? This has been discussed to to death. | ||
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gk_ender
United States717 Posts
On May 12 2011 16:53 eggs wrote: iccup several ask blizzard for numbers, how would we know because TL.net became SC2-based because Korea won every single year and it was a decision of either barring Korean competitors or removing the game. option #2 seemed less racist, so they went with that. lol nice | ||
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Sanchez_
Australia40 Posts
There is no secret you are uncovering. Those that watch both scenes already know and for those that just watch one or the other it makes little difference. The current best SC2 players are still the best SC2 players even if in the future some new players might switch and be better it really makes no difference for those watching SC2. There is currently no reason for the best BW players to switch as they are making much more money where they are. If circumstances change and they do switch and dominate the SC2 scene then SC2 supporters will get behind them. | ||
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rfoster
United States1005 Posts
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Cyber_Cheese
Australia3615 Posts
i don't think theres enough room in the skill cap for experienced players to take a spot that easily though | ||
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setzer
United States3284 Posts
On May 12 2011 16:53 erin[go]bragh wrote: Intrigue writes an essay to make his point. Artosis write two sentences claiming it's wrong. If he's got a problem with it, I assume he can write something just as in depth to make his point.  I don't see how people don't think the work ethic of guys like JD/Flash/Bisu wouldn't blow away the scene. If having that kind of dedication and practice doesn't make you better at the game, isn't that the same as saying SC2's skill ceiling is incredibly low? That being said, I personally am not sure if guys like TBLS could keep their motivation going into SC2... These guys love BW, I'm not sure if they'd be able to get the same feeling from a different game. But hey, then again money can be pretty motivating.  Furthermore, Artosis works for GSL and it is in his interest to make these players sound better than they are. How many times does Artosis come out and say "this player is aboslutely amazing!"? A lot, at least. If Artosis brought up an analogy on what every superior player from BW does better in similar situations he would lessen the excitement of the games and turn people off. | ||
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SK.Testie
Canada11084 Posts
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Douillos
France3195 Posts
On May 12 2011 16:46 Popss wrote: *BW fan A and new SC2 fan B sits down for a little chat* A - "Hey did you know MC, MVP and Nestea used to play the predecessor to SC2 called BW?" B - "No I didn't" A - "Yeah and they sucked at that game" B - "Oh really then how come they are so godly in SC2?" A - "Because relatively they're the best BW players who made the switch" B - "Then what about the best players?" A - "They still play BW since they make a ton in salary and play on TV" B - "So what you're saying is that a large talent pool of amazing RTS gamers don't play SC2?" A - "Yeah and they would destroy if they ever made the switch" B - "So you're saying that in the future we can expect better gamers coming over to SC2 leading to even better games and competition then what we have today?" A - "Yep" B - "No man, fuck you" A - "What?" B - "Fuck you man, MC" A - "But you should look forw..." B - "FUCK YOU, FUCK YOU MC" A - "But I was just trying to..." B - "MC, MC, MC!!! *incoherent* ... Look guys when people started hyping WC3 pros for SC2 I didn't start a gigantic BW vs WC3 slugfest because honestly I didn't know anything about WC3 pros and was just excited about seeing all these guys from different RTS games converge and compete in SC2. Should be the same in the case of current BW gamers. So whether you believe the hype or not I cant' see that as a fan of SC2 you could feel anything but excitement over the prospect that amazing gamers like Flash or Jaedong could one day start playing SC2. B - "So you're saying that in the future we can expect better gamers coming over to SC2 leading to even better games and competition then what we have today?" A - "Yep, and also that all you ve been watching for this last year is a cheap farce of a competition" B - "No man, fuck you" There, fixed | ||
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thnikkaman
19 Posts
If anything I would say that the skill floor is higher.. | ||
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onlinerobbe
Germany547 Posts
allthough I'm pretty sure  Sea (<3) would dominate as well yes sc2 is still in development, in fact it's even volatile, BUT.. BW is always developing as well. ZvZ could have changed into hive-tech play just 2 or 3 months ago. A player like  Jaedong (sadly) does not have an answer for everything,if you say that he practices so much that of course he's almost "invulnerable" then you definetly did not see his latest MSL matches. Crazy stuff happens there all the time. And I think Intrigue is not "just stating the obvious", obviously. of Course Jaedong and Flash would dominate everyone knows that even someone who hasnever seen them play knows they are not human compared to most so that MC interview really was rather embarrasing to me (embarrasing cause I like MC). But he also says that there are like 300 other players who would come into sc2 and crush every other player after months, I don't think many have thought of it that way. I think that any player from MSL right now could switch and win the GSL in 2 months. Any player that practices with the likes of JD would have that advantage of work ethics. Does all that say SC2 is bad and will never be as good as BW? Not really so you shouldn't feel insulted or anything, this just says that some players are praised more than they should be imo. ps: and yes I know I came with the SC2 wave in 2010 and don't know as much about BW as alot of people here but I am absolutely certain that intrigue hit the nail on it's head here. + Show Spoiler + <3 he elephant :D | ||
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thesundowners
Canada40 Posts
On May 12 2011 16:58 Cyber_Cheese wrote: i don't think theres enough room in the skill cap for experienced players to take a spot that easily though I never actually thought about it this way. If we're so close to SC2's skill cap already then why are we so sure a BW elite player would come over and dominate? Surely there isn't enough room to be better for that? In agreeing with the post you actually posted the best argument I've seen against it. | ||
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maahes`ra
United States255 Posts
Though SC2 drew me in, it was only after being hooked by it that I knew the following for Korean BW existed - I knew they played it professionally, but I never knew what it entailed, or that a western fanbase of any extent actually existed. Being exposed to both games simultaneously made it unbelievably clear that Starcraft 2 is a sequel only in name, and as I've kept my ear to the ground through its lifetime, I don't think that the switch for those outside of the S-Class Triforce would be as easy as you claim, especially right now. As a game, observing SC2 is in most cases much like observing amateur chess as an intermediate. For those outside of a match, it's very easy to identify the turning point that (should) win/(should) lose. Squeezing the extra 10-15% that perfect mechanics might (as compared to fantastic mechanics) won't matter if an opponent makes a slight variance in build order that nullifies far more than 15% of your macroeconomic efforts. BW, on the other hand, was untouched by the golden Hand of Blizzard throughout its life and I found digging into Liquidpedia I a joy (in particular things like this: http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft/Metagame ). That said, it is a very different beast - a game where every player has two enemies, his opponent and the interface. Games are less often won by build-order. Forces and positions shift with ebbs and flows. It really is quite fun to spectate when you know what's going on, and the best SC2 games to spectate are those that are 'BW-esque'. That said, I imagine until the game is much more mature, those that switch over might feel like IdrA did when playing against F91 - 'he's not playing into the expected archetype of 'good' or 'standard', so I didn't know the proper response' - in a game where the response feels far more important. I do agree that there is something to look forward to if those with more rigorous work ethic and practice schedules make the switch, but I don't think their reign would last very long if it sparked up at all. If anything, it would chase out those that don't put the work in and give the scene a renaissance of hard-working, well-coached players to replace people like Tester (A.K.A. 'Testing how far ahead I can get in games before throwing them away') and Fruit 'I Love Snowboarding and Drinking' Dealer. Those that want to keep up, will - there's no doubt in my mind that the majority of the scene, both players and spectators alike, would love to be included in that calibre of competition. In the end, I can't get over the tone of this. The points, if dissected from a beast full of bias, are positive, but this reads like elaborate trollbait that can also serve to lube up a BW fan's palm. The route to saying the same things in a positive way is one just as easily traveled, and given how well you wrote this, I can't imagine that the choice of the negative, vaguely superior, condescending voice was accidental. Who are you to shit on people daring to make their living playing such a volatile, undiscovered game? tl;dr - could have been front page material with more comprehensive editing and a different tone. | ||
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Douillos
France3195 Posts
On May 12 2011 16:53 eggs wrote: iccup several ask blizzard for numbers, how would we know because TL.net became SC2-based because Korea won every single year and it was a decision of either barring Korean competitors or removing the game. option #2 seemed less racist, so they went with that. Calling ICCUP a thriving scene is a bit over extending yourself, no? | ||
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Zapdos_Smithh
Canada2620 Posts
I love both BW and SC2 for reference, though I believe BW doesn't get the respect it deserves from the SC2 crowd. | ||
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Executor1
1353 Posts
On May 12 2011 13:59 Brad` wrote: LOL no The article is correct however. The best RTS players in the world will continue to play Broodwar for years to come because of the money and the fringe a-team players will go to sc2 for the exact same reason. If players fromm BW slowly start migrating over to sc2 eventually having players like Flash JD will be irrelevant because there will be less and less players to challenge them. As more and more players migrate (even if they are not top top player , fringe a players like you say) eventually BW will fall, im not saying this is going to happen fast but by the time HOTS comes out i think the difference in popularity between brood war and sc2 will be negligible assuming like you say that fringe a teamers start to migrate over to sc2. I really hope we see some of this transitioning soon, im all for seeing higher level games and having some of our sc2 heroes put in their place by a more talented BW generation :D | ||
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