On May 12 2011 16:28 Omoplata wrote: As a parallel, people used to say this same drivel about mixed martial arts.
"OMG gaiz! PRIDE fighters would destroy UFC fighters! See how no UFC fighters have had success in PRIDE? PRIDE is the best lolol!"
Then the UFC absorbed PRIDE and the domination by PRIDE fighters never occurred.
The point? It's all speculative BS. Until it happens, stating that there are 300 BW pros that could dominate SC2 on a whim is meaningless and biased speculation. Not to mention being a stupid thing to say. The entire article just reeks of Broodwar elitist garbage.
Weak analogy because all the pride guys came over way after their prime. And also SC:BW is objectively much more difficult than SC2.
No, they didn't. The UFC purchased PRIDE in the midst of that argument, with no warning whatsoever. People acted like CroCop (fresh of his grand prix victory) was going to walk through everyone and become champion. KOd by Gonzaga and has gone on to have a terrible UFC career. Shogun came over and got choked out by Forrest Griffin. No one from PRIDE, even those in their primes such as Shogun and Rampage, have dominated by any stretch of the imagination.
The fact that BW is "more difficult" doesn't really mean anything. Maybe the fact that some of the tedious mechanics have been automated in SC2 (rallying workers to minerals, for example) puts some of the top BW players at a disadvantage in SC2. Maybe that is part of the reason there is such a skill gap in BW (not sure, I haven't been interested in BW in years).
The fact remains that these really are two different games, and making a blanket statement about the skill of the players is utterly stupid.
Analogy: An SC2 mod writes an article entitled "The Elephant In The Room": Competitive BW is dead outside of Korea. It has no growth, no newbies picking up the game for the first time in any appreciable numbers. SC2 has replaced it on the international scene. Players like Flash and Jaedong are the last gasps of a wheezing e-sport that has already been bumped off of the WCG line-up due to age.
How would BW fans react?
Oh how I love a good dose of truth amidst all this craziness. Also, if all the top BW players could just come in and roflstomp all the current people, why would they cling to a dying game instead of moving forward to a more lucrative future? Could it be that they are *afraid* to start over with a brand new game after having dedicated so much of their lives to BW? Could they be afraid that maybe they won't dominate like everyone expects them to?
On May 12 2011 16:17 mahnini wrote: regardless of your opinion on the matter i think it's petty and pretty insulting to simply say "this just states the obvious and is written because of bw elitism".
anyway great article, it's a shame people can't accept it for what it is, a very informative and educational piece.
Calling the competitive scene a joke, is neither very informative or educational, especially since it's based on speculation.
you're picking out ONE line of the entire article.
That one line was the whole damn point of the article!
On May 12 2011 16:17 mahnini wrote: regardless of your opinion on the matter i think it's petty and pretty insulting to simply say "this just states the obvious and is written because of bw elitism".
anyway great article, it's a shame people can't accept it for what it is, a very informative and educational piece.
Calling the competitive scene a joke, is neither very informative or educational, especially since it's based on speculation.
you're picking out ONE line of the entire article.
That one line is what is creating such chaos.
Analogy: An SC2 mod writes an article entitled "The Elephant In The Room": Competitive BW is dead outside of Korea. It has no sustainable growth, no newbies picking up the game for the first time in any appreciable numbers. SC2 has replaced it on the international scene. Players like Flash and Jaedong are the last gasps of a wheezing e-sport that has already been taken off of life-support on the WCG line-up due to age.
How would BW fans react?
what kind of stupid question is that? seriously? i would read the article and either agree with it or argue substantial points. not narrow the entirety of the article down to what is OBVIOUSLY an attention getting line design to get you to read further.
On May 12 2011 16:17 mahnini wrote: regardless of your opinion on the matter i think it's petty and pretty insulting to simply say "this just states the obvious and is written because of bw elitism".
anyway great article, it's a shame people can't accept it for what it is, a very informative and educational piece.
Calling the competitive scene a joke, is neither very informative or educational, especially since it's based on speculation.
you're picking out ONE line of the entire article.
That one line is what is creating such chaos.
Analogy: An SC2 mod writes an article entitled "The Elephant In The Room": Competitive BW is dead outside of Korea. It has no sustainable growth, no newbies picking up the game for the first time in any appreciable numbers. SC2 has replaced it on the international scene. Players like Flash and Jaedong are the last gasps of a wheezing e-sport that has already been taken off of life-support on the WCG line-up due to age.
This article is spot on, in my opinion. I can't help but assume all these ragers are new fans of SC2 who didn't play BW competitively because I don't think there is anything remotely controversial in this article.
If the current BW pro scene is the equivalent of the English Premiere League, the current SC2 scene is like the Hyundai A-League.
Analogy: An SC2 mod writes an article entitled "The Elephant In The Room": Competitive BW is dead outside of Korea. It has no growth, no newbies picking up the game for the first time in any appreciable numbers. SC2 has replaced it on the international scene. Players like Flash and Jaedong are the last gasps of a wheezing e-sport that has already been bumped off of the WCG line-up due to age.
How would BW fans react?
Oh how I love a good dose of truth amidst all this craziness. Also, if all the top BW players could just come in and roflstomp all the current people, why would they cling to a dying game instead of moving forward to a more lucrative future? Could it be that they are *afraid* to start over with a brand new game after having dedicated so much of their lives to BW? Could they be afraid that maybe they won't dominate like everyone expects them to?
BW is still doing well in Korea your argument isn't very good.
On May 12 2011 16:17 mahnini wrote: regardless of your opinion on the matter i think it's petty and pretty insulting to simply say "this just states the obvious and is written because of bw elitism".
anyway great article, it's a shame people can't accept it for what it is, a very informative and educational piece.
Calling the competitive scene a joke, is neither very informative or educational, especially since it's based on speculation.
you're picking out ONE line of the entire article.
That one line is what is creating such chaos.
Analogy: An SC2 mod writes an article entitled "The Elephant In The Room": Competitive BW is dead outside of Korea. It has no sustainable growth, no newbies picking up the game for the first time in any appreciable numbers. SC2 has replaced it on the international scene. Players like Flash and Jaedong are the last gasps of a wheezing e-sport that has already been taken off of life-support on the WCG line-up due to age.
How would BW fans react?
what kind of stupid question is that? seriously? i would read the article and either agree with it or argue substantial points. not narrow the entirety of the article down to what is OBVIOUSLY an attention getting line design to get you to read further.
From the last years of being around TL, I doubt that would be the general reaction. More than likely there would be a lot of high post-counts trolling/attacking, saying 'lol', and the poster getting banned in short order for stirring up community strife.
This post is much better written than that example, but I can't imagine staff didn't see that one line and think 'oh, this won't cause any problems'.
On May 12 2011 16:17 mahnini wrote: regardless of your opinion on the matter i think it's petty and pretty insulting to simply say "this just states the obvious and is written because of bw elitism".
anyway great article, it's a shame people can't accept it for what it is, a very informative and educational piece.
Calling the competitive scene a joke, is neither very informative or educational, especially since it's based on speculation.
you're picking out ONE line of the entire article.
That one line is what is creating such chaos.
Analogy: An SC2 mod writes an article entitled "The Elephant In The Room": Competitive BW is dead outside of Korea. It has no sustainable growth, no newbies picking up the game for the first time in any appreciable numbers. SC2 has replaced it on the international scene. Players like Flash and Jaedong are the last gasps of a wheezing e-sport that has already been bumped off of the WCG line-up due to age.
How would BW fans react?
Well, because that's laden with factual inaccuracies, not well.
Saying a scene "is dead" with misinformation is not the same as saying "I think this scene is a joke, based on these facts."
Can you tell me about the thriving BW scene outside of Korea? What major tournaments it has? How man new players are picking it up (on average)? Why TSL3 was SC2-based? Why WCG pulled the plug on BW?
I think it's an equally provocative OP, and arguable more factually supported. But I digress-- is such an OP anything other than flame-bait? Is it verifiable? I didn't see any evidence in this OP proving that a transition from BW equates to instant skill in SC2.
Yes, NesTea and MC and MVP were BW pros-- but they have been playing SC2 for nearly a full YEAR now: they are more SC2 players than BW players right now. Many SC2 fans are objecting to the idea that BW fans can quickly begin dominating SC2 and tossing out the best of the current SC2 players. There is no proof, no control group, and no evidence beyond quotes like "FLASH PRACTICES ALOT!"
Analogy: An SC2 mod writes an article entitled "The Elephant In The Room": Competitive BW is dead outside of Korea. It has no growth, no newbies picking up the game for the first time in any appreciable numbers. SC2 has replaced it on the international scene. Players like Flash and Jaedong are the last gasps of a wheezing e-sport that has already been bumped off of the WCG line-up due to age.
How would BW fans react?
Oh how I love a good dose of truth amidst all this craziness. Also, if all the top BW players could just come in and roflstomp all the current people, why would they cling to a dying game instead of moving forward to a more lucrative future? Could it be that they are *afraid* to start over with a brand new game after having dedicated so much of their lives to BW? Could they be afraid that maybe they won't dominate like everyone expects them to?
or is it that their salaries are much much more than the prise pool of any tournament. or maybe because they are signed with huge multinational corporations that do things like give them free galaxy tabs for wining. or is it that they command a huge fan base that would literally die for them. or maybe its the over 100,000 people that actually show up to their tournament finals to watch them play im not sure, but i think your right, they really have no good reasons
I read the "What's your point?" section and still don't see the point. Lesser players saw and avenue for success and took it; its not that complicated.
On May 12 2011 13:32 intrigue wrote: My prediction: there will be another influx of (T)MVP-level (A-class) pros into SC2 after deals fall through during the next August free agency. With the announcement of Heart of the Swarm for Spring 2012, it's likely they will decide to get a head start.
This is the only non-subjective-taken-out-of-context part of the post. Money will dry up for BW over time, and the heavy weights will transfer to SC2.
On May 12 2011 13:56 oXoCube wrote: So Basically you're saying that if the best RTS players in the world started playing SC2 fiull time they would be pretty good?
Go Figure.
This is pretty succinct version and I agree. As far as not enjoying SC2 or feeling you're being short changed I don't. MC is still a million times better than me so it's enjoyable to watch in awe, not so with HS football which I played and even one year in college, they look like chumps to me so I don't watch it. Pro on the other hand...so fast. Drool. Watch every game.
On May 12 2011 16:07 WhiteDog wrote: It's a good read but all that is quite hypothetical.
Most of the community were thinking that, within the foreign scene, the ex SC1 players would just dominate the ex WC3 players on SC2, but we are seeing something quite different, almost the opposite in fact, with two ex WC3 players facing each others in final of the TSL3, crushing MC, FruitDealer and such. In Korea, the SC2 community is made / dominated by ex BW pro because the SC1 scene is so big that it impact so much with any kind of esport.
In my opinion, SC2 demand different skills from SC1, and even if players such as Flash and JD are overwhelming, I'm not sure they will dominate that much.
Thorzain beat mc because of lag no offense to thorzain, but in live tournaments the koreans tend to win. Besides that the ex sc1 foreign players were still no mvp or mc, and they were garbage in comparison to most players. Heres another happy stat, did you know that for wcg that the koreans play drunk except when they play eachother (and then they still do) and that not only has no one ever taken first from them in wcg, but has only taken second once, and to even further this point, that in the tournament less than 20 games have ever been taken off of the koreans.The skill gap between the koreans and foreigners is larger than that than between mc and flash, so to compare top bw non koreans and say that theyre not wining thus bw players wont do well is a joke. The scene is dominated by broodwar players because they are better, Moon, the best wc3 player, simply does not do well in sc2 in korea, And if you notice neither does anyone else
news to you bro, they played that game on EU server while MC was in Copenhagen .
\
actually i didnt mean that game, but just to note mc was aparently jet lagged as eff in that game. Oh and by no means am i defending MC, hes a terrible terrible player
I'm sorry but I'm going to have to call you out on this. First you make the false claim that MC only lost the series to Thorzain due to latency issues; you were proven wrong in this.
You then go on to make excuses for him as to why he could possibly lose to (God forbid) a Foreigner.
And finally when backed up into a corner you cheapen Thorzain's accomplishment by calling MC a terrible player. Come on man.
Im not cheapening it by calling him a bad player, that is what this whole arguement is about. MC is bad, i hate watching him, all he knows how to do is cheesy cute all ins, just like when he played BW. HES A BAD PLAYER. But what i am saying is this, that bring the top non koreans over to korea and have them compete in team leagues and gsl, they will not win, simply put. As a broodwar player it is my dream to see non koreans win, i get nerd chills. But come on guys, there is a reason why when they play live without latency, the statistics are so one sided. Its because the korean server is just ahead of the non korean ones, and the best non koreans would not be champions over their. And one more thing to boot, mc would never ever in a million years, win an osl, or msl in bw. Matter of fact, he would never leave his b-team. Why, because he is a terrible terrible player. And it translates into sc2, but where as in bw he was a chump with no chance, in sc2 he is a king
What a terrible post, I couldn't read this without cringing. There is no use in arguing with you farther as the flaws in your argument are so clearly self evident in this and your previous posts.
It has been far too long for a new FE. Thanks for the great writeup Intrigue. I look forward to reading the ignorance of so many SC2 fans in this, saying "BUT BUT BUT DIFFERENT GAME!"
I however would have liked if you highlighted some of the more "skillful" games in BW. Even as recent as Jaedong vs. Baby would have been sufficient to showcase the awesome power of a true S-class player.
"The Elephant in the Room" on TL.net is terribly ignorant. A few stats to prove a wrong point, with no real backstory to these pros.
Anyone want to back up our old friend?
Intrigue writes an essay to make his point. Artosis write two sentences claiming it's wrong. If he's got a problem with it, I assume he can write something just as in depth to make his point.
I don't see how people don't think the work ethic of guys like JD/Flash/Bisu wouldn't blow away the scene. If having that kind of dedication and practice doesn't make you better at the game, isn't that the same as saying SC2's skill ceiling is incredibly low?
That being said, I personally am not sure if guys like TBLS could keep their motivation going into SC2... These guys love BW, I'm not sure if they'd be able to get the same feeling from a different game.
But hey, then again money can be pretty motivating.
On May 12 2011 16:17 mahnini wrote: regardless of your opinion on the matter i think it's petty and pretty insulting to simply say "this just states the obvious and is written because of bw elitism".
anyway great article, it's a shame people can't accept it for what it is, a very informative and educational piece.
Calling the competitive scene a joke, is neither very informative or educational, especially since it's based on speculation.
you're picking out ONE line of the entire article.
That one line is what is creating such chaos.
Analogy: An SC2 mod writes an article entitled "The Elephant In The Room": Competitive BW is dead outside of Korea. It has no sustainable growth, no newbies picking up the game for the first time in any appreciable numbers. SC2 has replaced it on the international scene. Players like Flash and Jaedong are the last gasps of a wheezing e-sport that has already been bumped off of the WCG line-up due to age.
How would BW fans react?
Well, because that's laden with factual inaccuracies, not well.
Saying a scene "is dead" with misinformation is not the same as saying "I think this scene is a joke, based on these facts."
Can you tell me about the thriving BW scene outside of Korea? What major tournaments it has? How man new players are picking it up (on average)? Why TSL3 was SC2-based? Why WCG pulled the plug on BW?
I think it's an equally provocative OP, and arguable more factually supported. But I digress-- is such an OP anything other than flame-bait? Is it verifiable? I didn't see any evidence in this OP proving that a transition from BW equates to instant skill in SC2.
Yes, NesTea and MC and MVP were BW pros-- but they have been playing SC2 for nearly a full YEAR now: they are more SC2 players than BW players right now. Many SC2 fans are objecting to the idea that BW fans can quickly begin dominating SC2 and tossing out the best of the current SC2 players. There is no proof, no control group, and no evidence beyond quotes like "FLASH PRACTICES ALOT!"
iccup several ask blizzard for numbers, how would we know because TL.net became SC2-based because Korea won every single year and it was a decision of either barring Korean competitors or removing the game. option #2 seemed less racist, so they went with that.
EPT
