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On May 12 2011 16:27 gk_ender wrote:Show nested quote +On May 12 2011 16:20 TheRhox wrote:On May 12 2011 16:15 gk_ender wrote:On May 12 2011 16:07 WhiteDog wrote:
It's a good read but all that is quite hypothetical.
Most of the community were thinking that, within the foreign scene, the ex SC1 players would just dominate the ex WC3 players on SC2, but we are seeing something quite different, almost the opposite in fact, with two ex WC3 players facing each others in final of the TSL3, crushing MC, FruitDealer and such.
In Korea, the SC2 community is made / dominated by ex BW pro because the SC1 scene is so big that it impact so much with any kind of esport.
In my opinion, SC2 demand different skills from SC1, and even if players such as Flash and JD are overwhelming, I'm not sure they will dominate that much. Thorzain beat mc because of lag no offense to thorzain, but in live tournaments the koreans tend to win. Besides that the ex sc1 foreign players were still no mvp or mc, and they were garbage in comparison to most players. Heres another happy stat, did you know that for wcg that the koreans play drunk except when they play eachother (and then they still do) and that not only has no one ever taken first from them in wcg, but has only taken second once, and to even further this point, that in the tournament less than 20 games have ever been taken off of the koreans.The skill gap between the koreans and foreigners is larger than that than between mc and flash, so to compare top bw non koreans and say that theyre not wining thus bw players wont do well is a joke. The scene is dominated by broodwar players because they are better, Moon, the best wc3 player, simply does not do well in sc2 in korea, And if you notice neither does anyone else news to you bro, they played that game on EU server while MC was in Copenhagen . \ actually i didnt mean that game, but just to note mc was aparently jet lagged as eff in that game. Oh and by no means am i defending MC, hes a terrible terrible player
I'm sorry but I'm going to have to call you out on this. First you make the false claim that MC only lost the series to Thorzain due to latency issues; you were proven wrong in this.
You then go on to make excuses for him as to why he could possibly lose to (God forbid) a Foreigner.
And finally when backed up into a corner you cheapen Thorzain's accomplishment by calling MC a terrible player. Come on man.
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On May 12 2011 16:28 Omoplata wrote:
As a parallel, people used to say this same drivel about mixed martial arts.
"OMG gaiz! PRIDE fighters would destroy UFC fighters! See how no UFC fighters have had success in PRIDE? PRIDE is the best lolol!"
Then the UFC absorbed PRIDE and the domination by PRIDE fighters never occurred.
The point? It's all speculative BS. Until it happens, stating that there are 300 BW pros that could dominate SC2 on a whim is meaningless and biased speculation. Not to mention being a stupid thing to say. The entire article just reeks of Broodwar elitist garbage.
Weak analogy because all the pride guys came over way after their prime. And also SC:BW is objectively much more difficult than SC2.
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On May 12 2011 16:30 yFot wrote:
This elephant is made of straw.
Agreed. The OP dressed it all up with pictures and stats and yada yada, but the fact remains that SC2 is a NEW game, the metagame hasn't even truly begun to form, especially with 2 expansions still unreleased. Things are constantly shifting, and it will be quite a while before the metagame solidifies enough that anyone, regardless of dedication or BW experience or training regime or whatever, will be completely dominant like what you see in BW.
There is so much speculation in this article, presented in a way that can easily fool people into believing that the basis of it is actually substantiated in any way, but it just isn't. And Artosis just called it ignorant on twitter, FYI.
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finally a big writeup again :D
really enjoyed reading it although i think writeups about players arte even more interesting!
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On May 12 2011 16:35 TheRhox wrote:Show nested quote +On May 12 2011 16:27 gk_ender wrote:On May 12 2011 16:20 TheRhox wrote:On May 12 2011 16:15 gk_ender wrote:On May 12 2011 16:07 WhiteDog wrote:
It's a good read but all that is quite hypothetical.
Most of the community were thinking that, within the foreign scene, the ex SC1 players would just dominate the ex WC3 players on SC2, but we are seeing something quite different, almost the opposite in fact, with two ex WC3 players facing each others in final of the TSL3, crushing MC, FruitDealer and such.
In Korea, the SC2 community is made / dominated by ex BW pro because the SC1 scene is so big that it impact so much with any kind of esport.
In my opinion, SC2 demand different skills from SC1, and even if players such as Flash and JD are overwhelming, I'm not sure they will dominate that much. Thorzain beat mc because of lag no offense to thorzain, but in live tournaments the koreans tend to win. Besides that the ex sc1 foreign players were still no mvp or mc, and they were garbage in comparison to most players. Heres another happy stat, did you know that for wcg that the koreans play drunk except when they play eachother (and then they still do) and that not only has no one ever taken first from them in wcg, but has only taken second once, and to even further this point, that in the tournament less than 20 games have ever been taken off of the koreans.The skill gap between the koreans and foreigners is larger than that than between mc and flash, so to compare top bw non koreans and say that theyre not wining thus bw players wont do well is a joke. The scene is dominated by broodwar players because they are better, Moon, the best wc3 player, simply does not do well in sc2 in korea, And if you notice neither does anyone else news to you bro, they played that game on EU server while MC was in Copenhagen . \ actually i didnt mean that game, but just to note mc was aparently jet lagged as eff in that game. Oh and by no means am i defending MC, hes a terrible terrible player I'm sorry but I'm going to have to call you out on this. First you make the false claim that MC only lost the series to Thorzain due to latency issues; you were proven wrong in this. You then go on to make excuses for him as to why he could possibly lose to (God forbid) a Foreigner. And finally when backed up into a corner you cheapen Thorzain's accomplishment by calling MC a terrible player. Come on man.
agreed, MC isn't bad, stop ruining what Thorzain did.
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On May 12 2011 16:31 Kreb wrote:Add a comprehensive list of players switching and failing. That will really put thing into nice perspective.
I don't think there have been that many. Only Guemchi springs to mind.
I'm not really sure what this article's trying to say. It suggests that if Flash switches to SC2 he'll dominate everyone, and that he will not switch to SC2 for many, many years. Both are really obvious conclusions.
I suppose saying them might be helpful for some of the... denser members of the community, but I can't imagine those members would bother read it anyway.
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On May 12 2011 16:27 Gurgl wrote:
The top BW players would no doubt do very well in SC2 and the very top ones would likely dominate shortly after switching over. However I feel that the reason why so many ex-WC3 players are doing well currently is that the game is in a stage where micro and creativity is rewarded far more then mechanics because there is still so much more to learn.
Noone will question that top BW players are macrobeasts and have a big advantage there but I wonder how they hold up against the ex-WC3 players in terms of micro and creativity. What I´m saying is that the BW pros can´t just dominate everyone with macro to the same extent in SC2 in it´s current state and I doubt that they are gosu enough to "figure out the game" anytime soon.
do you even still watch BW? there are new creative builds all the time. it's not like its a game of who gets to a stronger 200/200 the fastest. it's all about creativity and micro, and solid macro mechanics are standard.
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On May 12 2011 16:36 epik151 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 12 2011 16:28 Omoplata wrote:
As a parallel, people used to say this same drivel about mixed martial arts.
"OMG gaiz! PRIDE fighters would destroy UFC fighters! See how no UFC fighters have had success in PRIDE? PRIDE is the best lolol!"
Then the UFC absorbed PRIDE and the domination by PRIDE fighters never occurred.
The point? It's all speculative BS. Until it happens, stating that there are 300 BW pros that could dominate SC2 on a whim is meaningless and biased speculation. Not to mention being a stupid thing to say. The entire article just reeks of Broodwar elitist garbage. Weak analogy because all the pride guys came over way after their prime. And also SC:BW is objectively much more difficult than SC2.
This debate reminds me of college football: bear with me.
Players from old-school, blue-blood football powers play pro-style football. Behemoth linemen. Pass-heavy offense. Rumbling running backs. Jam-it-down-your-throat gameplans. (BW players with amazing mechanics)
Enter the spread offense. New! Sleek. Faster. Because schools embracing the spread offense (at first) have a talent deficit (by traditional standards) compared to blue-blood POWER football schools, they rely on speedy linemen, shifty running backs, misdirection, multi-purpose quarterbacks that can run the ball, and mis-direction. These guys are misfits! They would never do extremely well on traditional power football teams. Blue-blooded football programs sneer at them (see: BW fans). But in the right new environment (SC2), they shine! (MC, NesTea, etc.)
In the spread, plays are often less scripted than their pro-style counterparts; the goal for plays is to find players in open space and get the ball to them (see: option QB offenses; see: SC2 as a much faster-paced game with metagame in flux).
Now, blue-blooded programs (BW fans) say "well, these newfangled 'spread offense' players are entertaining, but we all know that if the REAL football players (e.g. Peyton Manning) played in spread offenses, they would own. Now, Peyton (Flash) could probably excel at anything-- I have little doubt he could still do very well in a spread offense (SC2). But would an average amazing immobile QB (random BW A team player, say, Ssak) automatically dominate in a spread offense? Hell no! It's a different system, different design. Good passing ability (macro) is always helpful, but skills like mobility and shotgun-snap reads and throws out of the pocket which are less valuable in traditional football (BW) suddenly become way more important in the spread (SC2).
In a nutshell, SC2 is not better than BW, and BW players who step in immediately aren't going to necessarily dethrone players. In many ways the game is the same, but in many ways it's different. Time alone will tell, so OPs like this are just so much flame-bait.
I'd take Tim Tebow over Ryan Mallet to run my spread offense every single time.
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On May 12 2011 16:28 TheButtonmen wrote:
Why is this on the main page anyways?
If some regular poster made a troll topic like this encouraging SC2 vs BW fights they would be warned and the topic closed.
Seriously, way to discredit all the accomplishments of great players, including your own pro team, on the front page of your very own website. "The competition in SC2 has been a farce." And then people are getting banned for "igniting BW vs SC2 elitism". This entire article is just igniting it, and the bias is absolutely disgusting. I think people don't realize that they're just subconsciously disappointed with the way SC2 came out, and expect it to be brood war.
The game is young. The players are just now starting to understand the matchups. Watch GSL season 1, then watch the latest season. Even at the lowest level, the skill cap has raised dramatically. Why don't you just step out and say "i like brood war more, so i think brood war players would dominate." Or....you can take the logical approach and realize BW has been out for how long? Over a decade? And star2 is still in it's infancy. Discrediting great players like MC, MVP and Nestea is just ridiculous. How do you know they didn't play like 4 games a day when they weren't performing well in BW? How do you know they didn't have things going on in life where they couldn't fully commit the way that Flash and other players do? Who is to say that now they can actually do that (as in commit to the game) and that is why they're dominating the scene?
Your article is filled with many holes, and honestly the only people supporting it are BW elitists that want to see SC2 fail. You, and the TL admins should be ashamed of this post and for the fact that it's spotlighted on the front fucking page. Just because it is well written, doesn't mean it should be promoted. Or...maybe some people are just stuck in the past? 
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On May 12 2011 16:28 Wargizmo wrote:
The players themselves don't sound as if they're as confident they'll dominate as much as Intrigue thinks they will, Indeed. Actually even in BW, "on their own territory", they tend to be humble, i.e. Flash does not see himself as the dominating beast his fans proclaim him to be; same goes for Jaedong. And that's not even humility, it's a more realistic view on the causality of winning.
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On May 12 2011 16:32 mahnini wrote:Show nested quote +On May 12 2011 16:26 karpo wrote:On May 12 2011 16:17 mahnini wrote:
regardless of your opinion on the matter i think it's petty and pretty insulting to simply say "this just states the obvious and is written because of bw elitism".
anyway great article, it's a shame people can't accept it for what it is, a very informative and educational piece. I'm sorry but your "what's missing in SC2?" post also had this lingering sense of BW bias. It's hard to read and accept the good parts where some parts are just so obviously exaggerated or just pure opinion based. The article does invite BW vs SC2 arguments and it annoys SC2-fans with the whole "farce" intro. The SC2 fans defend their beloved game, then the BW fans will counter with their own arguments. It's not productive and it could be seen coming a mile away. ??? i don't get it. you're free to disagree but at least argue some points. the article has tons of stats and factual statements that can be argued, instead people ignore the whole thing and spouting about whatever the hell they feel like.
I already did argue but it got lost in the sea of BW vs SC2 arguments. I'm just saying that this is the result when you post flammatory content without thinking about the tone of the article first. I'm pretty sure that with a less extreme tone the discussion could have been alot better.
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This post evokes so many nerdy emotions... I am so excited for the future of progaming in SC2.... Because I get the feeling that we've seen nothing yet!
Winter is coming... , the 2012 of SC2, the impending Apocalypse!
SC1 progamers like Flash and Jaedong are going to be the nuclear holocaust to the SC2 pro scene, and it is only a few minutes to midnight... As a spectator, it is going to be so entertaining to see how SC2's top progamer's handle these big guys...
I can't wait!!! >.< /nerdgasms
Edit: Also I never religiously watched Broodwar, so this is going to be quite a new experience for me 
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On May 12 2011 16:35 Fraidnot wrote:Show nested quote +On May 12 2011 16:17 mahnini wrote:
regardless of your opinion on the matter i think it's petty and pretty insulting to simply say "this just states the obvious and is written because of bw elitism".
anyway great article, it's a shame people can't accept it for what it is, a very informative and educational piece. Calling the competitive scene a joke, is neither very informative or educational, especially since it's based on speculation.
you're picking out ONE line of the entire article.
What’s your point?
I am saying that there are 300 current pros and semi-pros that have the potential to come in and dominate SC2 at any moment, with a latency of a few months from the day they switch. Among this group there are a notable few that CRUSH any other players in terms of raw talent and/or work ethic and/or ability to learn. This knowledge cheapens any form of competition I see right now, no matter how much I try to enjoy the games.
did you even read to the conclusion? do you disagree with this? can you bring up some points? example games? ANYTHING?
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One thing I think is incredibly relevant in this discussion is the fact that as far as mechanics are concerned, SC2 has a far lower skill ceiling. By the time you reach masters on the ladder, you should have the ability to play a game without missing injects, or building up chronoboost, getting supply blocked, etc. From that perspective, what makes a lot of Broodwar pros great, is less important in SC2. While I don't doubt that current top BW players would do very well in SC2, to suggest that the current top players are only successful because the big boys haven't gotten out of bed yet is actually incredibly condescending and hurtful, and pure speculation. I don't think it needs saying, and the fact you've gone and said it anyway shows how little you really matter to the discussion.
If you look at how the game is played at the top level in the last 6 months, you'll see a dramatic change in both the skill being shown, and the level of competition. This is down to hard work and innovation by players such as MC, MVP, Nestea, Fruitdealer, Boxer, Nada, July, Idra.
Giving any credit to people who have so far contributed nothing to SC2 is just stupid. If the day comes that Flash, Bisu, Jaedong, etc were to switch over the SC2, they will have to prove themselves just like all the current SC2 pros have.
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On May 12 2011 16:27 Gurgl wrote:
The top BW players would no doubt do very well in SC2 and the very top ones would likely dominate shortly after switching over. However I feel that the reason why so many ex-WC3 players are doing well currently is that the game is in a stage where micro and creativity is rewarded far more then mechanics because there is still so much more to learn.
Noone will question that top BW players are macrobeasts and have a big advantage there but I wonder how they hold up against the ex-WC3 players in terms of micro and creativity. What I´m saying is that the BW pros can´t just dominate everyone with macro to the same extent in SC2 in it´s current state and I doubt that they are gosu enough to "figure out the game" anytime soon.
OK IM GOING TO SAY SOMETHING
BROOD WAR PLAYERS MICRO BETTER THAN MOON EVER DID
Listen kids, each race has these things called micro maps to practice on in bw. What most ppl dont know is that they do this for hours and hours and hours. For as much as 4 hours they play these maps so that they can not only micro, but micro while that macro, and do something crazy, like micro multiple units at different parts of the map, simulateously, and perfectly. PLease watch any game of broodwar (modern of course) watch a stream, show me what is not micro. It just happens so so fast, most ppl miss it, and the fact that both sides micro so hard that its hard to notice the advantages. But lets put it this way, every tank has a selected target, muta micro is not all the same buttons but mutliple groups doing different controls, adn shuttle and reaver micro happens in a milasecond. BW kids can micro, and no offense, JD micros better than anyone that has ever lived
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On May 12 2011 16:38 mahnini wrote:Show nested quote +On May 12 2011 16:35 Fraidnot wrote:On May 12 2011 16:17 mahnini wrote:
regardless of your opinion on the matter i think it's petty and pretty insulting to simply say "this just states the obvious and is written because of bw elitism".
anyway great article, it's a shame people can't accept it for what it is, a very informative and educational piece. Calling the competitive scene a joke, is neither very informative or educational, especially since it's based on speculation. you're picking out ONE line of the entire article.
Yes, he is. The bolded, size increased line that also sums up the conclusion of the blurb.
'This is not an article that will make me popular. This is not an article that will start negative but end with eloquent, poignant hope. But we have been skirting around this topic ever since Beta now, so I’ll just f**king say it: The competition in SC2 thus far has been a farce.'
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illsick
United States1770 Posts
On May 12 2011 15:50 gk_ender wrote:Show nested quote +On May 12 2011 13:59 Helix wrote:
Definitely interesting, and I think you make a lot of good points, but I remain unconvinced that a bunch of BW pros will switch in and just take over the scene.
Like Datum said, the people you mention who would switch and destroy the scene are literally the best players in the world for BW (Flash, Jaedong, Bisu...). That doesn't mean that all really good BW pros will switch and take over the SC2 scene.
But, I guess we'll see if/when they decide to switch. I'm just not a fan of making sweeping predictions like that with precious few data to go on. This is the articles one flaw, not that a bunch of kids wont come over, but to make you understand how good they are. What people dont understand is that Flash Jd Bisu and Stork are in a realm of their own, and they still lose. When he said magnitude greater he means that mc was literally several classes lower in skill level, and that their are hundreds of kids in that huge huge gap between them. For example, S2 and Kwanro, or Grape, or even Reality, come out ahead of these players by a lot, and flash and jd make them look like fools. Not only that but above them you have sea, leta, hyuk, zero, jangbi, all players that at this point are 2 magnitudes better than mc ever was or could be. There are over a hundred players that fill that gap between mc and flash, and thats what hes saying. You guys simply dont understand how bad mc is compared to everyone, he wasnt average, he was terrible, so terrible that literally their exist to many names to count that are better than him on multiple levels
that's what makes this article so bias...
MC has the worst win % of all the BW pros that switch but yet he's the best so that can mean that BW status does not equal sc2 status as those BW pros that switched with him should be ahead of him, but yet they are not.
Or it can mean that MC peaked when he came over to sc2
another thing people have to remember is that there are 3 options as to who will dominate/succeed in sc2 (however you want to put it):
a) top BW players (none made the switch so not even really an option)
b) former non-top BW players (MC, nestea, etc)
c) non BW players
Since the first is not an option, the other two options seem to discredit the SC2 competition based on bias of the author. If a former non-top BW player like MC is dominating, people will instantly (like this article) compare BW stats and say that because he was not at the top in BW, the BW top players would instantly be better than him upon switch to sc2. And if a non BW player is doing well; the author of article doesn't even give credit to their achievements like inca's run to the finals or even sC, saying they are non threats for a title (just because they don't play BW?). You don't see the bias!? So any outcome as to who will dominate will provide a BW bias.
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On May 12 2011 16:26 Douillos wrote:Show nested quote +On May 12 2011 16:21 Royalcommand wrote:On May 12 2011 16:09 Douillos wrote:On May 12 2011 16:02 JoFritzMD wrote:
One thing no one can dispute is that Brood War has a higher skill cap. It was a harder game. That is just an accepted fact. However that doesn't mean that we should just give up on SC2. SC2 is a much more friendly game for newcomers to the scene and for people who don't know much about gaming in general and that is the important point. Even if SC2 crashes and burns in the next 2 years it doesn't matter as long as it makes more people aware of the E-Sport scene.
I personally much prefer watching BW to SC2 but I still watch every SC2 tournament I can just because I want to see E-Sports grow (not to mention I do enjoy watching the games). Everyone just has to remember that no matter which game is "better" this is all for the love of E-sports in general whether it's Halo or WoW or CS or SC. Sc: Bw was harder, for sure, but only because of the mechanics it demanded. I m hoping though that Sc2 will demand more brains than mechanics, and thus the skill cap will be much higher, and we will be enlightened by something more smart and fancy then a well executed 3 way attack with 6x12 control groups. so youre saying that BW strategies and decision making are inferior than sc2? that it was only a "harder" game because of the mechanics? The posts made by these new sc2 guys are seriously laughable and outright wrong. You cant just simply make a statement regarding how hard a game is because it requires more "mechanics" Half of these posts are degrading BW as simply as a mechanics only game and how it is a competition of APM/how fast you can react. That is simply wrong and bullshit. Look at Savior during his prime for example. Flash currently is also known not for his solid mechanics(that would be jaedong) but his perfect game sense and timing. Please go learn some BW before spouting nonsense. Ok you definitily got me wrong and I probably took a few shortcuts to get my argument through in a easier way. I did not want to take anything from BW, having actually grown up with it (not ever getting passed D+ though :/ ). But the other half of posts are degrading SC2 because it's so much "easier". And apart from mechanics, what is easier in SC2?
thank you for acknowledging what was wrong in your earlier post, but aside from that, youre definitely right in that the only noticeable thing easier in sc2 would be mechanics. I wouldnt call sc2 "easier" than bw but i think the person posting earlier was trying to say that the mechanics made bw "harder" game to play than sc2. I dont think he was trying to degrade sc2 in any aspect.
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wow sir thats what i call a very good and well informed read !
i also thought about this for some time and i have to say i completely agree with you.
but sad thing ( atleast for me ) is that the switch of "the real" S-Class players won't probably happen for a long time :S
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On May 12 2011 16:38 mahnini wrote:Show nested quote +On May 12 2011 16:35 Fraidnot wrote:On May 12 2011 16:17 mahnini wrote:
regardless of your opinion on the matter i think it's petty and pretty insulting to simply say "this just states the obvious and is written because of bw elitism".
anyway great article, it's a shame people can't accept it for what it is, a very informative and educational piece. Calling the competitive scene a joke, is neither very informative or educational, especially since it's based on speculation. you're picking out ONE line of the entire article.
That one line is what is creating such chaos.
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EPT
