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On May 12 2011 16:17 mahnini wrote:
regardless of your opinion on the matter i think it's petty and pretty insulting to simply say "this just states the obvious and is written because of bw elitism".
anyway great article, it's a shame people can't accept it for what it is, a very informative and educational piece.
This is very condescending-- can you explain what exactly is so informative and educational about it? It seems pretty disrespectful to SC2 pros and their accomplishments.
What did you learn from reading this that you were not aware of before clicking on it? It reads like BW fanboyism ribbing on SC2 without a control group or any real evidence (of the claim that Brood War pros switching to SC2 will automatically dominate) except quotes like "JAEDONG PRACTICES A LOT [even though there is a 0% chance he's switching to SC2]" or "JINRO ONCE SAID THAT FLASH WOULD BE REALLY GOOD IF HE SWITCHED TO SC2 AND WIN TOURNAMENTS WITHIN A WEEK."
The winning perentages? Yeah. Anyone following the sport knows MC and NesTea were "failed" progamers; Tastosis have mentioned it numerous times. What of it? OP has 0% evidence that Brood War skill 100% translates to SC2 skill.
This was an op-ed at best.
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On May 12 2011 16:09 Douillos wrote:Show nested quote +On May 12 2011 16:02 JoFritzMD wrote:
One thing no one can dispute is that Brood War has a higher skill cap. It was a harder game. That is just an accepted fact. However that doesn't mean that we should just give up on SC2. SC2 is a much more friendly game for newcomers to the scene and for people who don't know much about gaming in general and that is the important point. Even if SC2 crashes and burns in the next 2 years it doesn't matter as long as it makes more people aware of the E-Sport scene.
I personally much prefer watching BW to SC2 but I still watch every SC2 tournament I can just because I want to see E-Sports grow (not to mention I do enjoy watching the games). Everyone just has to remember that no matter which game is "better" this is all for the love of E-sports in general whether it's Halo or WoW or CS or SC. Sc: Bw was harder, for sure, but only because of the mechanics it demanded. I m hoping though that Sc2 will demand more brains than mechanics, and thus the skill cap will be much higher, and we will be enlightened by something more smart and fancy then a well executed 3 way attack with 6x12 control groups.
A well executed 3 way attack with 6x12 control group isn't good enough for you? Guess you like sc2's 1xinfinite control group, 1 pronged attacks into the front of people's bases better. I also don't understand how you simultaneously want the skill cap to be high and to have "brains" > mechanics. There's only so many viable strategies in the game and once they are all figured out, the determining factor will be mechanical execution, not strategic thinking.
If you wanted a game were strategy was rewarded more than execution, we'd have random map generators to discourage standard BO's and random events like rising lava.
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On May 12 2011 16:22 Headshot wrote:There's a common misconception in this thread that just because Brood War demanded insane mechanics, it required less strategy. This is 100% false. There seem to be quite a few angry SC2 fans in this thread. 
You're gonna need to do more than call it a misconception when I delivered a thorough explanation of why that is necessarily the case.
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Go figure indeed.
Don't watch the games if you think the experience is cheapening. Of course pros right now are going to get smashed in 1-2 years. Look at a BW game from 2002. It's how esports works. Skill level increases, young beasts enter.
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On May 12 2011 16:19 Devolved wrote:Show nested quote +On May 12 2011 16:03 karpo wrote:On May 12 2011 16:01 Devolved wrote:On May 12 2011 15:49 Firkraag8 wrote:On May 12 2011 15:46 GTR wrote:
flash is just one of them once-in-an-ESPORTS-generation prodigies.
Maybe if you discount future talent, but as in any sport or competition out there, legends will be dethroned and new will be made and it could just as well happen to be an SC2 player. That's not true. Pretty much every sport has a legend that will never be dethroned. The future is irrelevant to a certain few. They are timeless. Michael Jordan. Tiger Woods. Muhammad Ali. Babe Ruth. Flash. They will remain heroes to everyone but that doesn't mean they could compete at the level were at now. No one knows if they could, they were good in their time but things change. Well, I think there is one you could say with certainty was the best ever at his sport and that is Michael Jordan. Michael Jordan revolutionized how to play the sport. To this day, before or after and always to be, nobody has dominated the sport more than MJ did. He won 3 championships in a row, left for baseball, returned after a couple of years, and won 3 more championships in a row. Even with years of not practicing basketball he was able to return and dominate once again. As far as dominance in a single field, Flash is probably closer to MJ than even the ones I listed for other sports.
i would think Tiger Woods is the better example, seeing as how golf is all about playing the course and not the competition. and golf is also not a team sport (Tiger never needed a Pippen like MJ did).
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On May 12 2011 16:17 Original exxo wrote:Show nested quote +On May 12 2011 16:12 Kurr wrote:On May 12 2011 15:44 Noelani wrote:Hey, my friend is a top Chess grandmaster. I think if he switched over to SC2, he would dominate within months guys!!!111  Exactly. Anyone paying attention to the scene would realize that overall skill level keeps going up. I completely agree that it's not up to par with BW...but isn't that to be expected? All the succesful players stayed there. But you completely ignore the GROWTH of the current community. People will get better over time. It should not be shocking to you that a newer game (1 year old) is still growing, especially when there are 2 more expansions on the way that may change the game immensely. In the few months that a good BW player would take to adapt to the current skill level in SC2, current SC2 players can also get better. Could a BW player dominate? Potentially. Could he also fail completely? Absolutely, and anyone trying to argue otherwise should take a step back and rethink his stance. Now let's talk about effort, because that seems to be a recurring point in your article : For example, you compared SlayerS' workload to an average BW team. Well, great, isn't that normal? But then you added that they are tearing the scene apart. COMPLETELY WRONG! MMA has been doing relatively well and Ryung as well but they are in no way dominating the scene. So what if other teams are having success without as much effort? Simply put, they are not motivated enough. And as far as we know, they ARE putting in the 30-40 games a day, just nothing saying it in public. In the end, as the players get better, those that slack will get left behind... just like how it happened for BW or any other competitive event (sports OR games) And obviously effort plays a large part in it. Those who put more effort into BW got better, got a good salary for their efforts and and thus stayed there. "Lesser" players that didn't practice as much or simply never had success for a variety of reasons jumped ship to SC2 (saying they just weren't skilled is a cop out; you can train your decision making or any other part of your skill set to become better player if you are truly motivated). But that is not to say they won't change their ways, or that new players from other scenes or new to RTS entirely will not come in later, bring in good work ethics and become top players. Bigger prize pools, sponsors and SALARIES! -> more training/effort -> better players. It's that simple. I don't understand the goal of this article. Yes, there are plenty of sub par games in SC2 currently. I agree with that; the skill level isn't up there yet in general (but some players are definitely showing us that they are improving rapidly, and players like IdrA, Sen, etc, have been dominating all their opponents recently to give a few examples; you can expect their growth to continue and as such inspire other players to follow suit). Did you honestly expect people to pick up SC2 and a few months later be at a skill level comparable to BW? No, of course not. It IS a different game. There are different abilities, timings, mechanics, etc. Everything factors in to make it a new learning curve and especially the boost to early game aggression means that it will take a while still for the skill level to truly develop and allow us to have games consistently be high level. Too many top players are not good enough yet at handling the pressure of early game and when they bring it to the mid game, it's half the time just a pleasantry because 1 player is so far ahead, and IMO that is what is currently holding back the majority of SC2 progamers (and, like I said, that's being fixed by itself over time with people getting better...not by saying "BW progamers are better") Overall, calling this an elephant in the room is ridiculous. It was clear from the beginning that it would take a long time for the SC2 scene to grow to a respectable skill level. Anyone expecting anything else was simply too optimistic. The answer is not the say that BW progamers should switch because they are better. The answer is that SC2 players will get better over time and reach a skill level where people will stop making such ridiculous arguments. Also great post, one I am sure the BW elitists will not pay any attention too.
Am I right or am I right ^_^
all it is, is condescending bitter BW trolls
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On May 12 2011 16:20 Zlasher wrote:
It DOESN'T make SC2 any less of a game, but that was never intrigue nor HotBid's point.
what exactly does calling the SC2 competitive scene a "farce" hope to accomplish other than comparing it to brood war and making a statement on which is superior? The SC2 pro scene in the context of itself so far isn't perfect by any means but is constantly improving, it's only when you start the BW comparisons does the discussion turn negative
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On May 12 2011 13:52 Zrana wrote:
You didn't mention NaDa or July as much as you should have. Both amazing at sc1 (capable of beating flash/JD at times iirc but not rocking SC2 as hard as you say they should)
Different game, different skills. Mechanics mean slightly less, strategy slightly more. Sure some is transferable, but this really seems like more of the same tired old BW was better whine.
You say that there are hundreds of players who could come in and dominate SC2 at any moment. Well why haven't they? There's nothing to stop them taking the GSL, TSL and NASL prize pools. More than enough incentive.
The answer is that SC2 is still being figured out, and it takes a different sort of player to excel at a young game than a game where the rules have already been written.
Also you imply that SC2 is invalid as a sport until we have some godllike figure like Flash. Was football invalid before Beckham, Formula 1 before Schumacher?
No, they were still fun to watch. (well i dont like football but lots do)
It feels like you didn't really read his post. He pre-emtively responded to pretty much every response you have made. Pretty convincingly I might add.
Thanks to the OP, really good read - I await their arrival with great anticipation!
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I understand and agree with your premise. The current great/good/average BW players have the potential to switch to sc2 and have a good shot at dominating.
While you don't clarify the extent to which you believe this cheapens the current competition, I can only assume that you find it to be somewhat significant enough to write an article on the subject. If I'm correct in this assumption, I have to disagree with this as your conclusion.
Our interpretation of what is significant is obviously subjective so me arguing about it in such a way to try to change your mind seems ridiculous, instead I'd just like to respond with my opinion.
When you compare a player like MVP to a player like Flash, it is clear to see their skill difference in the context of the BW korean pro scene. But is one really on a whole other level? I don't really think so. This is not the case of a world class athlete and a high school level athlete. These are two world class athletes.
We love to hype our favorite players, though. I'm guilty of this myself when I post in KT liquibets often. It's fun to talk about Flash as a god and to act as if he can never be beaten. But this is not the case because he plays with people who are also around this level. I mean for example, Flash has lost 4 of his last 10 games. Is this a great record? Of course, he's the greatest player in the world. But does this record (72% W/L) represent someone significantly above the rest of the competition? No, the BW pro scene would not function if something like this were the case. These players are on the level to compete with each other. Sure some will win 70%, some will win 30%, but they are still on such a level that it is competitive. At the point where players are able to take games off of each other, I do not consider their skill differences to be significant (Going back to MVP vs Flash example, MVP did take a game off Flash in the msl).
When we have players playing SC2 who were shown to be at the level to be competitive in the korean pro scene (basically by being in it and winning a modest amount of games), I feel that is good enough for me.
In the end, though, I think we just have to abandon all these hypothetical comparisons. We can talk all we want about how some players have the potential to be the best, but really such discussions are just meaningless and there's nothing to be gained from them (aside from a little bit of fun). The best players cannot be hypothetical, the best are the ones who compete and prove themselves. Results are what define them, not potential.
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On May 12 2011 16:18 kzn wrote:Show nested quote +On May 12 2011 16:14 Two_DoWn wrote:
Let me quote directly from you then:
"Players who are "carried" by their mechanics in SCBW cannot expect an identical level of success in SC2."
We will take this as our logical starting point. This statement implies that mechanically advanced players cannot compete in SC2. It implies nothing of the sort. It says that mechanical gifts will not get you as far in SC2 as they will in SCBW.
To be honest, that is exactly what I hope for: that mechanics plays a major role in sc2. But not mechanics that you need to babysit your units because they are too stupid to even walk without you holding their hand, but mechanics that you need to manage a huge battlefront, while macroing in the background and harrassing your opponent in multiple locations.
Otherwise, since scouting is always a gambling game, the game would be too volatile for my taste.
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Great article with plenty of evidence to support your claim (not that those of us who have followed bw disagree). This editorial was a great read, i enjoyed it.
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Wow, they are two completely different games, with different skill sets. It's like saying a professional Lacrosse player is going to dominate in the NHL....
Also Nada and BoxeR weren't scrubs, just sayin'
Here's my theory, the pro's of broodwar are comparatively bad at SC2.
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On May 12 2011 16:17 mahnini wrote:
regardless of your opinion on the matter i think it's petty and pretty insulting to simply say "this just states the obvious and is written because of bw elitism".
anyway great article, it's a shame people can't accept it for what it is, a very informative and educational piece.
I'm sorry but your "what's missing in SC2?" post also had this lingering sense of BW bias. It's hard to read and accept the good parts where some parts are just so obviously exaggerated or just pure opinion based.
The article does invite BW vs SC2 arguments and it annoys SC2-fans with the whole "farce" intro. The SC2 fans defend their beloved game, then the BW fans will counter with their own arguments. It's not productive and it could be seen coming a mile away.
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On May 12 2011 16:21 kzn wrote:Show nested quote +On May 12 2011 16:19 FawkingGoomba wrote:On May 12 2011 16:14 kzn wrote:On May 12 2011 16:14 FawkingGoomba wrote:On May 12 2011 16:05 nihlon wrote:On May 12 2011 16:04 FawkingGoomba wrote:
Since when did a presentation of facts become "BW-elitism"?
The people who are succeeding in SC2 were bad at BW. (For Boxer/Nada/July, it was at the end of their careers). Thus it is likely that the current play in SC2 is subpar, since people who are more skilled have not made the switch. The bolded part could be considered a fact. The rest of your post not, which is why people are having different opinions. Those two go hand in hand though. Bad players switching means that the best play will not be had. Not necessarily unless the games are absolutely identical. It does though. The skill gap (in BW) between the top SC2 players and their BW counterparts is so huge that, as long as the games are similar, they will be better. You can't respond to an argument by just restating your conclusion and expect to get anywhere. Unless skill translates perfectly across games (or we know precisely how it translates), skill in a different game tells us relatively little about the level of play in a game.
Fair enough. I guess my point is that we know the games are similar, therefore some skills do translate. Thus it is likely that people who are far better at BW are likely to be better in SC2. It's not proven by any means, but I think it is fair to say that it is very likely
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On May 12 2011 16:21 Royalcommand wrote:Show nested quote +On May 12 2011 16:09 Douillos wrote:On May 12 2011 16:02 JoFritzMD wrote:
One thing no one can dispute is that Brood War has a higher skill cap. It was a harder game. That is just an accepted fact. However that doesn't mean that we should just give up on SC2. SC2 is a much more friendly game for newcomers to the scene and for people who don't know much about gaming in general and that is the important point. Even if SC2 crashes and burns in the next 2 years it doesn't matter as long as it makes more people aware of the E-Sport scene.
I personally much prefer watching BW to SC2 but I still watch every SC2 tournament I can just because I want to see E-Sports grow (not to mention I do enjoy watching the games). Everyone just has to remember that no matter which game is "better" this is all for the love of E-sports in general whether it's Halo or WoW or CS or SC. Sc: Bw was harder, for sure, but only because of the mechanics it demanded. I m hoping though that Sc2 will demand more brains than mechanics, and thus the skill cap will be much higher, and we will be enlightened by something more smart and fancy then a well executed 3 way attack with 6x12 control groups. so youre saying that BW strategies and decision making are inferior than sc2? that it was only a "harder" game because of the mechanics? The posts made by these new sc2 guys are seriously laughable and outright wrong. You cant just simply make a statement regarding how hard a game is because it requires more "mechanics" Half of these posts are degrading BW as simply as a mechanics only game and how it is a competition of APM/how fast you can react. That is simply wrong and bullshit. Look at Savior during his prime for example. Flash currently is also known not for his solid mechanics(that would be jaedong) but his perfect game sense and timing. Please go learn some BW before spouting nonsense.
Ok you definitily got me wrong and I probably took a few shortcuts to get my argument through in a easier way. I did not want to take anything from BW, having actually grown up with it (not ever getting passed D+ though :/ ).
But the other half of posts are degrading SC2 because it's so much "easier". And apart from mechanics, what is easier in SC2?
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On May 12 2011 16:18 Mordiford wrote:Show nested quote +On May 12 2011 16:15 TheAntZ wrote:
Its like an anime and the strongest bad guys are still to come~ Yeah, only... it's not at fucking all like that.
Except it is like that? I honestly don't see how people are saying that Flash / Jaedong / Bisu would not completely dominate the scene. Up to a certain point it is work ethic that counts. The three players listed here have incredible work ethic. A large portion of players currently playing sc2 make comments like "i have lacked motivation" or "I haven't been practicing as much lately." You see these statements CONSTANTLY in post GSL code A and S match interviews. Regardless of the obvious talent these three have, their work ethic alone would thrash that of what current sc2 pros have. Sc2 wouldn't be something they would relax or have fun with. The vast majority of sc2 players do not practice for 12+ hours a day, and many of them say that it would hinder them and not help them, but at the current stage of sc2 where so much is to be discovered and NOBODY has exceptional mechanics yet, the more practice will produce the better player, not even taking into account raw talent.
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Sounds like someone has a case of sibling envy. As someone who's followed Brood War pretty thoroughly for the past few years, I will say Yes, it is entirely possible that if people like Flash, Jaedong, Bisu, Stork, etc. make the switch, that current SC2 players will have a much harder time playing in and winning tournaments. I'm not even going to say some BW players won't switch because I know more will in the future. What I want to say is that it doesn't matter if they switch. People who deserve to win, will win. Those people are the ones who are willing to put forth the effort to win a medal, the ones that will train and try their hardest to win matches at any cost. To me, it sounds like TC is kind of complaining about how people will have to try harder to beat any progamers that make the switch to SC2, when in reality, everyone should have been practicing 30-40 hours a week and learning the game inside and out like SlayerS has. I feel like playing BW will get you better at SC2 faster than playing SC2 exclusively. The skills learned in Brood War have much more depth than the ones learned in SC2.
My point: This thread makes me feel like people are annoyed with having to put a lot of effort in to get good at SC2. The players that deserve to win tournaments, are the players who have worked the hardest to be the best at the game.
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On May 12 2011 16:24 thesundowners wrote:Show nested quote +On May 12 2011 16:20 Zlasher wrote:
It DOESN'T make SC2 any less of a game, but that was never intrigue nor HotBid's point. what exactly does calling the SC2 competitive scene a "farce" hope to accomplish other than comparing it to brood war and making a statement on which is superior? The SC2 pro scene in the context of itself so far isn't perfect by any means but is constantly improving, it's only when you start the BW comparisons does the discussion turn negative
To me the article is far less malicious then people are trying to make it seem. He isn't undermining the SC2 scene to that extent, I've sat with intrigue around korean bbq where he said in his own words that BW is dying and that SC2 is the future.
What this article is, is pointing out exactly as the title states, the elephant in the room that nobody has taken the time to gather the statistics and evidence to point towards what has been assumed for ages but that we won't know until/if it happens, which is showing that we have only seen the low A-teamers and worse in SC2, and showing that their drive and work ethic is far inferior to what solid A and S class players in BW have taken 12 years to cultivate.
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I don't know, I think this whole argument is somewhat negated by the fact that the game is still so young. I don't think that SC2's quality of play is lesser than BW's quality of professional play because the talent is necessarily any worse -- I think it's because the game is still developing in terms of tactics, mindset, etc. Everything is still up in the air and we're seeing new styles of play emerge almost weekly or monthly. You're talking about SC2 as if all the professionals basically suck, that there's no Jaedong or Flash. But players like that will emerge over time. Jaedong and Flash didn't become the players they are in a matter of 12 months -- they've developed over years and years and years and so will the professional competition in SC2. Practice styles amongst high tier clans will become more intense and rigorous as the competition becomes stiffer and more talented, and individual practice time and ethics will increase as well.
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EPT
