On May 12 2011 15:35 kzn wrote: Players who are "carried" by their mechanics in SCBW cannot expect an identical level of success in SC2.
That's a great point, nicely stated. I always hated the fact that through just pure mechanics a player can become quite good at BW. Maybe that's why a player like Nestea isn't top tier in that game but is quite amazing in SC2. I'm far more interested in decision making and execution than I am in how fast you can click on your buildings or order workers to mine.
ohai densha
Back to the thread at hand, I'm getting sick to my stomach when people say that they're different games, and there is no evidence proving that BW players would dominate in SC2
THIS ARTICLE IS ALL ABOUT THE EVIDENCE, stop saying there is none. You can never have 100% evidence but when all signs point towards work ethic and dedication separating good from great, that is all the evidence that is needed. None of the players currently playing SC2 get by on pure talent. You think MVP, MC, Nestea, MKP, etc. would be great players without the practice they put in?
Please, oh please, explain to us what the fuck it changes? Does that make Sc2 a worse game than Sc:Bw?
Most people are discussing the point of the article, and not the argumentative elements.
regardless of your opinion on the matter i think it's petty and pretty insulting to simply say "this just states the obvious and is written because of bw elitism".
anyway great article, it's a shame people can't accept it for what it is, a very informative and educational piece.
Also, I am getting really annoyed at people saying there is higher skill cap in BroodWar. That is flat out false. There is a higher MECHANICAL skill cap in BroodWar. The skill in BroodWar and Starcraft is not just mechanical, but strategic as well. Unless the strategic skillcap is of an equal level, which is I think a little difficult to quantify, then you cannot objectively say that there is a higher overall skillcap in BroodWar. Mechanical, absolutely that is obvious. Warcraft II has a higher Mechanical skillcap than BroodWar as well:
The point is that Starcraft 2 should be a complicated enough game that the mechanical skillcap becomes meaningless to the top tier players. Perhaps it is too easy, I cannot say. I would argue that that mechanical skill cap lowering inherently makes it a different game, with a different overall skillcap. I don't think anyone would argue that overall skillcap has been reached. As Incontrol said in Inside The Game (paraphrasing): the reason that Spanishiwa's Build is cool is not because it creates a new Zerg Strategy, but that it points out that everything that people now think is obvious in Starcraft 2, may not necessarily be the case a year from now. 4 months ago everyone would tell you that defending your base with just Queens and Spinecrawlers in the early game was impossible. Now that clearly isn't the case. So no, the strategic skillcap is far from being reached.
On May 12 2011 16:14 Two_DoWn wrote: Let me quote directly from you then:
"Players who are "carried" by their mechanics in SCBW cannot expect an identical level of success in SC2."
We will take this as our logical starting point. This statement implies that mechanically advanced players cannot compete in SC2.
It implies nothing of the sort. It says that mechanical gifts will not get you as far in SC2 as they will in SCBW.
Yet, as I have pointed out, Intrigue has pointed out, and the overall HISTORY OFWHO WINS SHIT point out: old BW players are the ones who win top tier tournaments in Korea. And BW players are the ones with stronger mechanics than non BW players. So right there your argument is invalidated.
No, its not, because you're arguing against a straw man that I never actually argued.
It cannot be denied that ex-BW pros are stronger mechanically than everyone else. It is a fact. However, if your argument was true, that mechanics are as easy to learn as decision making, then it would not matter: players would learn to play faster at the same rate as ex-pros learned to make the correct decisions. This has not been the case. Ex-pros have learned to make decisions much faster than everyone else has been able to catch up mechanically. Thus, given the dominance of the SC2 scene by ex-bw pros, we can conclude that decision making is easier and faster to learn than mechanics.
Decision making skills, and mechanical skills, are not completely different in SC2. SCBW skill gives a springboard advantage in the switchover, because SC2 maintains a lot of the extremely basic mechanical skills from SCBW, it just makes them less important. They're still important, and you still get a benefit from mastering them, so SCBW players are at an advantage.
Additionally, a number of RTS fundamentals with regard to decision making carry over as well, with the same effect.
More to the point, your argument assumes an equal distribution of talents, practice routines, and personal styles across ex-pros and random players, and that is a ridiculous assumption.
this article sucks, it goes over basic reasons exemplifying players and using the statistics to say that bw pros jump over and are better. This might be true, but not yet. Even if this comes to be true, this is purely speculation and seems probably obvious.
Seems more like you're trying to justify a "what if" they jump over, and how they will dominate. I'm glad you're so confident in your prediction, but this article is nothing but a spiteful debating article.
Other things, MVP wasn't an underperforming bw player. No shame in losing to flash in the MSL.
I'm surprised this is a featured article, it seems to just be here to spark debate. Pretty much trying to say that at this point no one takes sc2 seriously, and possibly utilizing player qoutes to rehash your point. Maybe these pros wanted to play a newer game where there is still room for "fun" plays, and the meta game isn't so well figured out?
On May 12 2011 15:46 GTR wrote: flash is just one of them once-in-an-ESPORTS-generation prodigies.
Maybe if you discount future talent, but as in any sport or competition out there, legends will be dethroned and new will be made and it could just as well happen to be an SC2 player.
That's not true. Pretty much every sport has a legend that will never be dethroned. The future is irrelevant to a certain few. They are timeless. Michael Jordan. Tiger Woods. Muhammad Ali. Babe Ruth. Flash.
They will remain heroes to everyone but that doesn't mean they could compete at the level were at now. No one knows if they could, they were good in their time but things change.
Well, I think there is one you could say with certainty was the best ever at his sport and that is Michael Jordan. Michael Jordan revolutionized how to play the sport. To this day, before or after and always to be, nobody has dominated the sport more than MJ did. He won 3 championships in a row, left for baseball, returned after a couple of years, and won 3 more championships in a row. Even with years of not practicing basketball he was able to return and dominate once again. As far as dominance in a single field, Flash is probably closer to MJ than even the ones I listed for other sports.
On May 12 2011 16:04 FawkingGoomba wrote: Since when did a presentation of facts become "BW-elitism"?
The people who are succeeding in SC2 were bad at BW. (For Boxer/Nada/July, it was at the end of their careers). Thus it is likely that the current play in SC2 is subpar, since people who are more skilled have not made the switch.
The bolded part could be considered a fact. The rest of your post not, which is why people are having different opinions.
Those two go hand in hand though. Bad players switching means that the best play will not be had.
Not necessarily unless the games are absolutely identical.
It does though. The skill gap (in BW) between the top SC2 players and their BW counterparts is so huge that, as long as the games are similar, they will be better.
On May 12 2011 16:17 mahnini wrote: regardless of your opinion on the matter i think it's petty and pretty insulting to simply say "this just states the obvious and is written because of bw elitism".
anyway great article, it's a shame people can't accept it for what it is, a very informative and educational piece.
Going around calling the SC2 competitive scene a farce is way more petty and insulting. People actually put a lot more of an effort into that. Nuff said.
I don't agree to the title of the article that the competition is a farce. I think that the competition so far is of good standards, no one is totally dominate and you have a few really good players, compared to others in SC2. Just because there exists better players in a different game, region, planet does not mean that the competition that now exists is something to be laugh at.
I do agree to that when the progamers from BW come, they will be good and even better then the current players in SC2.
On May 12 2011 16:07 WhiteDog wrote: It's a good read but all that is quite hypothetical.
Most of the community were thinking that, within the foreign scene, the ex SC1 players would just dominate the ex WC3 players on SC2, but we are seeing something quite different, almost the opposite in fact, with two ex WC3 players facing each others in final of the TSL3, crushing MC, FruitDealer and such. In Korea, the SC2 community is made / dominated by ex BW pro because the SC1 scene is so big that it impact so much with any kind of esport.
In my opinion, SC2 demand different skills from SC1, and even if players such as Flash and JD are overwhelming, I'm not sure they will dominate that much.
Thorzain beat mc because of lag no offense to thorzain, but in live tournaments the koreans tend to win. Besides that the ex sc1 foreign players were still no mvp or mc, and they were garbage in comparison to most players. Heres another happy stat, did you know that for wcg that the koreans play drunk except when they play eachother (and then they still do) and that not only has no one ever taken first from them in wcg, but has only taken second once, and to even further this point, that in the tournament less than 20 games have ever been taken off of the koreans.The skill gap between the koreans and foreigners is larger than that than between mc and flash, so to compare top bw non koreans and say that theyre not wining thus bw players wont do well is a joke. The scene is dominated by broodwar players because they are better, Moon, the best wc3 player, simply does not do well in sc2 in korea, And if you notice neither does anyone else
news to you bro, they played that game on EU server while MC was in Copenhagen .
On May 12 2011 16:17 mahnini wrote: regardless of your opinion on the matter i think it's petty and pretty insulting to simply say "this just states the obvious and is written because of bw elitism".
anyway great article, it's a shame people can't accept it for what it is, a very informative and educational piece.
Informative and educational while calling an entire e-sports scene a "farce".
It's one thing to have an opinion on a subject like this, it's another thing altogether to be condescending and make a mockery of pros and fans that put a lot of time and passion into a great game.
On May 12 2011 15:35 kzn wrote: Players who are "carried" by their mechanics in SCBW cannot expect an identical level of success in SC2.
That's a great point, nicely stated. I always hated the fact that through just pure mechanics a player can become quite good at BW. Maybe that's why a player like Nestea isn't top tier in that game but is quite amazing in SC2. I'm far more interested in decision making and execution than I am in how fast you can click on your buildings or order workers to mine.
ohai densha
Back to the thread at hand, I'm getting sick to my stomach when people say that they're different games, and there is no evidence proving that BW players would dominate in SC2
THIS ARTICLE IS ALL ABOUT THE EVIDENCE, stop saying there is none. You can never have 100% evidence but when all signs point towards work ethic and dedication separating good from great, that is all the evidence that is needed. None of the players currently playing SC2 get by on pure talent. You think MVP, MC, Nestea, MKP, etc. would be great players without the practice they put in?
Please, oh please, explain to us what the fuck it changes? Does that make Sc2 a worse game than Sc:Bw?
Most people are discussing the point of the article, and not the argumentative elements.
It DOESN'T make SC2 any less of a game, but that was never intrigue nor HotBid's point.
On May 12 2011 16:02 JoFritzMD wrote: One thing no one can dispute is that Brood War has a higher skill cap. It was a harder game. That is just an accepted fact. However that doesn't mean that we should just give up on SC2. SC2 is a much more friendly game for newcomers to the scene and for people who don't know much about gaming in general and that is the important point. Even if SC2 crashes and burns in the next 2 years it doesn't matter as long as it makes more people aware of the E-Sport scene.
I personally much prefer watching BW to SC2 but I still watch every SC2 tournament I can just because I want to see E-Sports grow (not to mention I do enjoy watching the games). Everyone just has to remember that no matter which game is "better" this is all for the love of E-sports in general whether it's Halo or WoW or CS or SC.
Sc: Bw was harder, for sure, but only because of the mechanics it demanded. I m hoping though that Sc2 will demand more brains than mechanics, and thus the skill cap will be much higher, and we will be enlightened by something more smart and fancy then a well executed 3 way attack with 6x12 control groups.
so youre saying that BW strategies and decision making are inferior than sc2? that it was only a "harder" game because of the mechanics? The posts made by these new sc2 guys are seriously laughable and outright wrong. You cant just simply make a statement regarding how hard a game is because it requires more "mechanics" Half of these posts are degrading BW as simply as a mechanics only game and how it is a competition of APM/how fast you can react. That is simply wrong and bullshit. Look at Savior during his prime for example. Flash currently is also known not for his solid mechanics(that would be jaedong) but his perfect game sense and timing. Please go learn some BW before spouting nonsense.
Very good post, and I agree immensely with it. But I also think that this game represents something for younger players that BW has represented for its current elite -- that is: an opportunity. Although we will likely see an influx of better players as they slip out of BW, this doesn't stifle the chance for truly great no names to make it big. Just take that Thorzain vs MC example. Thorzain (though the game is young) represents how the game grows and how talent will rise to the occasion. Now, I must admit I'm a little lost to the exact idea of the post (was it that current SC2 players are only the bottom of the barrel? or was it that we are only getting a glimpse of what's to come?), but whatever the case, we are going to see a change in the calibre of ability it takes to play this game and I have a feeling that this standard won't just be set by koreans, but by "foreigners" who are truly good enough.
On May 12 2011 16:04 FawkingGoomba wrote: Since when did a presentation of facts become "BW-elitism"?
The people who are succeeding in SC2 were bad at BW. (For Boxer/Nada/July, it was at the end of their careers). Thus it is likely that the current play in SC2 is subpar, since people who are more skilled have not made the switch.
The bolded part could be considered a fact. The rest of your post not, which is why people are having different opinions.
Those two go hand in hand though. Bad players switching means that the best play will not be had.
Not necessarily unless the games are absolutely identical.
It does though. The skill gap (in BW) between the top SC2 players and their BW counterparts is so huge that, as long as the games are similar, they will be better.
You can't respond to an argument by just restating your conclusion and expect to get anywhere. Unless skill translates perfectly across games (or we know precisely how it translates), skill in a different game tells us relatively little about the level of play in a game.
As someone who didn't follow the Brood War scene that was quite an interesting read. I have been kind of surprised at how some of the hyped up Brood War pros can.. fail to deliver, and fail hard at so many occasions, at least in comparison to the hype they received. Guess I don't understand why "bad" BW players would be hyped to that extent in the first place, but it does explain a thing or two. And I'm still hoping we'll see one of the big boys come to SC2, damn that would be a treat to see.
On May 12 2011 16:16 Snaphoo wrote: Jobbers with high APM going pro by playing 3 hatch muta because they've practiced it into the ground and know every possible counter because the game hasn't changed in ~10 years don't exist in SC2. It's a young game that is still developing its meta-game, and where strategic play and creativity are heavily rewarded right now, even more so than gosu mechanics.
Can you please stop posting about how BW hasn't changed in 10 years when it's still constantly changing?
Brood War is stale. It is 13 years old, and virtually every match-up has been played to death. There are no dramatic new playstyles, no month-by-month shifts in the metagame, and very little opportunity for players with creative play to make a name for themselves. Maps are changing all the time which is cool, and the gosus at the top are undeniably amazing to watch.
But it's an old game
shows how little you know,please stop posting here you are hurting your credibility.
I would defend SC2 myself but there has to be new evidence before saying spouting same old shit and hoping to get to people who don't like it is absolutely pointless.
Do tell, what dramatic playstyle shifts in the Brood War metagame have occurred between February 2011 and April 2011?
Note that Ver never touched on zvz/zvp but since he made this post, there have been even more stuff ie 6hat4base zvp.
On September 28 2010 05:46 Ver wrote: SC mapped out? Few innovators/innovations? Are we watching the same games here? The late 2009/2010 season has been one of the most innovative years ever! There's a large amount of exploring left in many of these systems.
For Terran alone (listing general systems, not the absurd amount of variations):
TvZ- Safe 14cc on 2 player maps a dozen different variations of bio -> mech and vice versa with a lot more room for further exploration (this is huge!) Flexible Valkyrie first openings that can transition into many different possibilities A totally new approach vs 2 hatch muta with aggressive marine pushes (changes a lot) 7 Rax (and overlord snipes from it) 4 rax -> triple port wraith 2 rax acad allins 3rd denial vs 3 hatch muta (very unexplored and complex) 2 base allin vs crazy zerg (3 hatch muta to ultra) Revolutionary lategame defense based off of aggressive vessel raids, covering infantry, and massed tanks (probably the biggest change in years along with bio-mech transitions) 12pool Lair with a very different and expansive early/midgame Improvements on overall mech play (several new midgame options) Heavy and consistent Vulture/Valkyrie!? (totally unexplored)
TvP- Many different 3 base timings Many variations in the 2 fact after cc system both from siege expand and from FD 12 Nexus variations and emphasis 1 fact mine double expand in response to 12 Nexus New midgame Carrier transition ideas both before and after arbiters Rax Expand!! (a huge system with tons more exploration but right now there are many variations already)
As long as the pro scene stays alive in courts BW is fine. SC2 is just new (and getting many temporary tournies/players because of this) and people need a break from BW. Give half a year/year and things should be looking better.
I enjoyed the article. It's well thought out and hits every nail on the head. I feel that what you've explained should be obvious to anyone and those stating otherwise should have their heads examined.
I would like to add some food for thought as I feel there is one point which seems to be missing in your article. SC2 is a very young game, it's a new game and has little Grass-Root base to build upon. You might not agree with my Grass-Root statement and would argue that Korea, land of the BW has years of experience, but I say that we all know that the Korean professional BW scene and SC2 scene are segregated. There are no hand-me-down, SC2 has to figure it out them selfs, with maybe a few "table scraps" from BW.
When the Korean BW scene started it had Stars, but their skill will probably be laughable when compared to the current BW stars. But that is the negative way of looking at it. I would rather like to say: "WOW! BW has come a long way". And in a couple of years we'll probably say the same of SC2.
Try to look at the glass as Half Full, else these fledgling of SC2 will only be very frustrating. Be critical, but try looking forward to whats to come. In a couple of years the SC2 houses will be more established, training regimes will improve and SC2 start growing it's own Stars (with no BW history) and we will be their gateway to the past. I would rather be the old guy with a smile telling a great story of yesteryear, then a frustrated, grumpy old BW player.
EPT
