EPT""The Elephant in the Room" on TL.net is terribly ignorant. A few stats to prove a wrong point, with no real backstory to these pros."
The Elephant in the Room - Page 24
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Original exxo
United States257 Posts
""The Elephant in the Room" on TL.net is terribly ignorant. A few stats to prove a wrong point, with no real backstory to these pros." | ||
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lorkac
United States2297 Posts
On May 12 2011 16:04 Mordiford wrote: Pretty much, I vote we change the title from "The Elephant in the Room" to "The Dead Horse on the Floor". How about "The Elephant beating a Horse in a Dead Room" | ||
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EndOfTime88
Austria259 Posts
Let the world embrace SC2. | ||
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Popss
Sweden176 Posts
On May 12 2011 16:11 TheSwamp wrote: If we are to believe Tasteless and Artosis, these ex-Brood War pros were all “sick good” at that game, and imported it over to SC2. Anyone who watches the GSL on a regular basis knows that this is a blatant lie. Thank you for saying so early in the article. I almost wasted my time with the rest of it. They work for GSL and it's just part of their job to try and hype the players like this. Tastosis if anyone know that many of these players was anything but "sick good". | ||
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norsK
United States131 Posts
Sorry I don't want to upset anyone, simply first glance after getting home from work. whether someone trolled before I did about those things, the argument is still flawed if it's excluded. Above all I think we can dismiss the whole idea when we recognize that SC2 is an entirely different game to be mastered.. and if you are skilled and put in the time your going to be good at it. This just seems like a well written "BW Pro's are far more talented than SC2 Pro's." | ||
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DotADeMoN
United States517 Posts
On May 12 2011 16:05 nihlon wrote: The bolded part could be considered a fact. The rest of your post not, which is why people are having different opinions. Those two go hand in hand though. Bad players switching means that the best play will not be had. | ||
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Zlasher
United States9129 Posts
On May 12 2011 15:41 densha wrote: That's a great point, nicely stated. I always hated the fact that through just pure mechanics a player can become quite good at BW. Maybe that's why a player like Nestea isn't top tier in that game but is quite amazing in SC2. I'm far more interested in decision making and execution than I am in how fast you can click on your buildings or order workers to mine. ohai densha Back to the thread at hand, I'm getting sick to my stomach when people say that they're different games, and there is no evidence proving that BW players would dominate in SC2 THIS ARTICLE IS ALL ABOUT THE EVIDENCE, stop saying there is none. You can never have 100% evidence but when all signs point towards work ethic and dedication separating good from great, that is all the evidence that is needed. None of the players currently playing SC2 get by on pure talent. You think MVP, MC, Nestea, MKP, etc. would be great players without the practice they put in? | ||
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Two_DoWn
United States13684 Posts
On May 12 2011 16:02 kzn wrote: My logic says nothing of the sort. One anecdotal example is completely insufficient to make a claim about the ease of learning a particular skill over another. You'd need actual studies. More to the point, it doesn't even matter. About the only bad thing that comes out of focusing on an "easier" skill is that the skill cap might be hit faster. And I have a counterexample - it is far harder to get good at Chess or Go than it is to get good at Golf. Let me quote directly from you then: "Players who are "carried" by their mechanics in SCBW cannot expect an identical level of success in SC2." We will take this as our logical starting point. This statement implies that mechanically advanced players cannot compete in SC2. Yet, as I have pointed out, Intrigue has pointed out, and the overall HISTORY OFWHO WINS SHIT point out: old BW players are the ones who win top tier tournaments in Korea. And BW players are the ones with stronger mechanics than non BW players. So right there your argument is invalidated. But since I made the point that mechanics are harder to learn than good decision making, I might as well defend it. I offered the example of July, a excellent mechanical player but poor decision maker who learned good decision making and won a couple OSLs. But you dont like that example apparently. So lets use LOGIC to make you look like an idiot! It cannot be denied that ex-BW pros are stronger mechanically than everyone else. It is a fact. However, if your argument was true, that mechanics are as easy to learn as decision making, then it would not matter: players would learn to play faster at the same rate as ex-pros learned to make the correct decisions. This has not been the case. Ex-pros have learned to make decisions much faster than everyone else has been able to catch up mechanically. Thus, given the dominance of the SC2 scene by ex-bw pros, we can conclude that decision making is easier and faster to learn than mechanics. | ||
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kzn
United States1218 Posts
On May 12 2011 16:14 FawkingGoomba wrote: Those two go hand in hand though. Bad players switching means that the best play will not be had. Not necessarily unless the games are absolutely identical. | ||
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sandyph
Indonesia1640 Posts
On May 12 2011 14:09 Hot_Bid wrote: Can we not turn this into BW vs SC2 please. Thanks! with the upmost respect, how can it not be a BW vs SC2 when the whole premise of the article is how A- and B teamer from BW is now the cream of the top in SC2 ? And how they will get completely demolished when the 'Gods' decided that its worth their time to try and play this game called SC2 ? Im sorry but this article is really disrespectful toward the current SC2 pro's and yes, it is a different game imho | ||
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Sakarabu
United Kingdom132 Posts
Notes: Players are obviously not 100% defined by their career stats; there are ups and downs and extenuating circumstances. (P)MC made it into the Bacchus 2009 OSL, (P)TesteR was the guy that made it into a bunch of OSLs only to get eliminated early. (Z)NesTea was part of a strong 2v2 team with (P)Reach. These are undeniably decent performances. (Z)TheWinD and (P)RainBOw at the peaks of their careers were in their fair share of individual tourneys too, while players such as (P)Lotze and (P)MarineKing didn't get to play in that many qualifiers. This small print that you tried to hide at the bottom of your post completely negates anything you wrote before it, so first off: congrats for wasting so much time writing this. Secondly: Was (T)ThorZaIN vs (P)oGsMC awesome? Fuck yeah! I loved watching those two play, the games were fantastic What's the fucking problem? This post might aswell be you saying "There shouldn't be a foreigner scene at all in BW or SC2" since, according to you, foreigners games (since they are nowhere near Koreans) arn't of a sufficient standard to qualify for what you deem as 'good competition'. Ok guys, pack up your bags, close the website, the OP has spoken: Only S-Class BW pros make a game good. Terrible, overly dramatic, sensationalist and overall negative post. Pretty pointless article. Mainly stating obvious facts. Made only to invoke a SC2 vs BW debate. Well done... | ||
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TheAntZ
Israel6248 Posts
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TheRhox
Canada868 Posts
On May 12 2011 16:09 phosphorylation wrote: Some posts from only sc2 crowd is laughable. He is writing from position of knowing both games well and loving them both, while you are only knowledgeable (and sometimes not even that) of one. Who is better equipped make the call then? Don't make such rash generalizations. Artosis is a part of the "sc2 crowd" and he is also in a position of knowing and loving both games, yet he disagrees with the statements represented in the OP. | ||
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gk_ender
United States717 Posts
On May 12 2011 16:07 WhiteDog wrote: It's a good read but all that is quite hypothetical. Most of the community were thinking that, within the foreign scene, the ex SC1 players would just dominate the ex WC3 players on SC2, but we are seeing something quite different, almost the opposite in fact, with two ex WC3 players facing each others in final of the TSL3, crushing MC, FruitDealer and such. In Korea, the SC2 community is made / dominated by ex BW pro because the SC1 scene is so big that it impact so much with any kind of esport. In my opinion, SC2 demand different skills from SC1, and even if players such as Flash and JD are overwhelming, I'm not sure they will dominate that much. Thorzain beat mc because of lag no offense to thorzain, but in live tournaments the koreans tend to win. Besides that the ex sc1 foreign players were still no mvp or mc, and they were garbage in comparison to most players. Heres another happy stat, did you know that for wcg that the koreans play drunk except when they play eachother (and then they still do) and that not only has no one ever taken first from them in wcg, but has only taken second once, and to even further this point, that in the tournament less than 20 games have ever been taken off of the koreans.The skill gap between the koreans and foreigners is larger than that than between mc and flash, so to compare top bw non koreans and say that theyre not wining thus bw players wont do well is a joke. The scene is dominated by broodwar players because they are better, Moon, the best wc3 player, simply does not do well in sc2 in korea, And if you notice neither does anyone else | ||
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Snaphoo
United States614 Posts
On May 12 2011 15:59 Osmoses wrote: My prime argument for why this is not true is because BW has been analyzed with a fine tooth comb and the "game" is much more defined. SC2 is still floaty and there are few "truths" about how to play it. This and a dramatically reduced mechanics floor are excellent reasons to question the value of this article's viewpoints. Ultimately, this smacks of Brood War fans feeling disgruntled about SC2 overtaking BW in popularity and growth, and SC2 fans treading on what they believe to be their throne of RTS fandom. No one likes to feel replaced. Ultimately, though, this will not amount to anything more substantive than a flamewar until some top-flight BW pros switch over and try their hand at SC2. Excellent decision-making and strategic depth and understanding of the game are what define the current GSL leaders (MKP's unique style, NesTea's constantly-evolving near-mastery of the Zerg race, MC's relentless timings and fluid transitions). Jobbers with high APM going pro by playing 3 hatch muta because they've practiced it into the ground and know every possible counter because the game hasn't changed in ~10 years don't exist in SC2. It's a young game that is still developing its meta-game, and where strategic play and creativity are heavily rewarded right now, even more so than gosu mechanics. Flash and JD are obviously not going to be switching over to SC2 while they are still in their primes unless BW dies altogether as an e-sport, so to say "no SC2 player is as good as them!" is kind of a childish OP. Who cares, unless their skill would translate quickly and easily to SC2? You can argue all you want, but so long as neither player is moving over to SC2, it's a moot point. | ||
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Itsmedudeman
United States19229 Posts
yes, "scrubs" from BW are "dominating" the sc2 scene right now, I use the term dominating lightly because they still lose to random players from time to time, but that's bound to happen in any game at the same time, they're on the same level as players who were LEAGUES above them in sc1, MVP would crush MC and nestea 9 times out of 10 in sc1 the same way that flash would crush MVP 9 times out of 10, yet they are still at the same level as MVP in sc2 so how can we say for sure that players who are leagues above someone in another game switch over they'll still remain leagues ahead of them in starcraft 2? the rankings of best players in the world are hardly clear at all, and a lot of people who were just plain out bad and could never hope to achieve possibly even B team status are capable of doing well | ||
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norsK
United States131 Posts
On May 12 2011 16:13 EndOfTime88 wrote: I really don't see the need for this article. The whole thing does little more than to mock SC2 as a whole. It just came off very condescending & I believe it will do little more than push casuals away from caring about BW with elitists opinions like this. Let the world embrace SC2. +1 !! User was warned for this post | ||
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RileyCyrus
United States14 Posts
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baby elephant
273 Posts
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Original exxo
United States257 Posts
On May 12 2011 16:12 Kurr wrote: Exactly. Anyone paying attention to the scene would realize that overall skill level keeps going up. I completely agree that it's not up to par with BW...but isn't that to be expected? All the succesful players stayed there. But you completely ignore the GROWTH of the current community. People will get better over time. It should not be shocking to you that a newer game (1 year old) is still growing, especially when there are 2 more expansions on the way that may change the game immensely. In the few months that a good BW player would take to adapt to the current skill level in SC2, current SC2 players can also get better. Could a BW player dominate? Potentially. Could he also fail completely? Absolutely, and anyone trying to argue otherwise should take a step back and rethink his stance. Now let's talk about effort, because that seems to be a recurring point in your article : For example, you compared SlayerS' workload to an average BW team. Well, great, isn't that normal? But then you added that they are tearing the scene apart. COMPLETELY WRONG! MMA has been doing relatively well and Ryung as well but they are in no way dominating the scene. So what if other teams are having success without as much effort? Simply put, they are not motivated enough. And as far as we know, they ARE putting in the 30-40 games a day, just nothing saying it in public. In the end, as the players get better, those that slack will get left behind... just like how it happened for BW or any other competitive event (sports OR games) And obviously effort plays a large part in it. Those who put more effort into BW got better, got a good salary for their efforts and and thus stayed there. "Lesser" players that didn't practice as much or simply never had success for a variety of reasons jumped ship to SC2 (saying they just weren't skilled is a cop out; you can train your decision making or any other part of your skill set to become better player if you are truly motivated). But that is not to say they won't change their ways, or that new players from other scenes or new to RTS entirely will not come in later, bring in good work ethics and become top players. Bigger prize pools, sponsors and SALARIES! -> more training/effort -> better players. It's that simple. I don't understand the goal of this article. Yes, there are plenty of sub par games in SC2 currently. I agree with that; the skill level isn't up there yet in general (but some players are definitely showing us that they are improving rapidly, and players like IdrA, Sen, etc, have been dominating all their opponents recently to give a few examples; you can expect their growth to continue and as such inspire other players to follow suit). Did you honestly expect people to pick up SC2 and a few months later be at a skill level comparable to BW? No, of course not. It IS a different game. There are different abilities, timings, mechanics, etc. Everything factors in to make it a new learning curve and especially the boost to early game aggression means that it will take a while still for the skill level to truly develop and allow us to have games consistently be high level. Too many top players are not good enough yet at handling the pressure of early game and when they bring it to the mid game, it's half the time just a pleasantry because 1 player is so far ahead, and IMO that is what is currently holding back the majority of SC2 progamers (and, like I said, that's being fixed by itself over time with people getting better...not by saying "BW progamers are better") Overall, calling this an elephant in the room is ridiculous. It was clear from the beginning that it would take a long time for the SC2 scene to grow to a respectable skill level. Anyone expecting anything else was simply too optimistic. The answer is not the say that BW progamers should switch because they are better. The answer is that SC2 players will get better over time and reach a skill level where people will stop making such ridiculous arguments. Also great post, one I am sure the BW elitists will not pay any attention too. | ||
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