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On May 12 2011 15:59 lorkac wrote:Show nested quote +On May 12 2011 15:48 raviy wrote:On May 12 2011 15:34 Moonwrath wrote:
It's hard to take this article seriously because I need a goddamn chainsaw to hack through all the Brood War bias bullshit. SC2 is a different game, there's literally no evidence that if BW pros switched they would automatically start raping everyone. They might. Hell they probably would, but you can't know for sure unless they actually switch. Even if they did switch and stomp, that doesn't prove anything other than those players like Flash are amazing. But you already knew that. So basically you can't take any predictions or conjectures seriously because they haven't been proved, regardless of supporting evidence? So... there goes anyone saying that Chelsea would beat Man City, or that Manny Pacquiao would beat my little sister in a fist fight. I guess you also can't take the Big Bang Theory seriously as well, since it's not confirmed by direct observation. You must not be a very serious person. I'd bet on your sister.
LoL xD
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What a divisive article. Im sorry but this isn't an elephant in the room situation at all. The opinions in the article have been constantly discussed before now to the point of beating a dead horse.
I agree with quite a bit of the points regarding practice ethic, mistakes made, and I will even yield some towards the concept that BW Code-S might be equivalent in SC:2. However its pie-in-the-sky logic to state these opinions as if they were factual. I'm pretty sure since sports was invented there have always been some that say "well if so-n-so were to play this other sport they would dominate!" and Im sure many of those statements down through the ages were in fact accurate. However they don't add anything to the discussion! Furthermore following up a statement like that with "since so-n-so doesn't play in this sport its illegitimate and a farce" is just a fluff statement intended to cause angry response. Considering the responses I can see that worked. The author has certainly achieved the goal of fomenting divisive argument but certainly hasn't revealed any elephants to my eyes just more of the same discussion that has in fact been going on for a year now.
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On May 12 2011 15:52 TheArtOfFugue wrote:
The skill ceiling for SC2 has been hit or is really close to being hit. Your basically saying the best chess player could switch to checkers and beat the best checkers player with ease? No. There would be a learning process, there would be struggles, since it's a DIFFERENT game. BW pros have more RAW MECHANIC TALENT, but SC2 does not require this. Not even close. Your point is... you don't have a point actually.
The games are WORLDS apart, they only share the name "Starcraft".
completely disagree. the game isn't even complete yet, how can the skill ceiling already have been reached? it was just patched literally days ago. there are 2 entire expansions coming.
all BW pros have the mechanical talent advantage. the top BW pros have the decision making and the focus and mindset of a winner. Jaedong on tilt? no, he just goes into angry-eyes mode and plays harder. idra on tilt? rage quits games that he could've won.
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On May 12 2011 15:49 Firkraag8 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 12 2011 15:46 GTR wrote:
flash is just one of them once-in-an-ESPORTS-generation prodigies.
Maybe if you discount future talent, but as in any sport or competition out there, legends will be dethroned and new will be made and it could just as well happen to be an SC2 player.
That's not true. Pretty much every sport has a legend that will never be dethroned. The future is irrelevant to a certain few. They are timeless. Michael Jordan. Tiger Woods. Muhammad Ali. Babe Ruth. Flash.
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You could work on being objective. If its different from BW, its apparently automatically bad automatically..
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On May 12 2011 15:41 darmousseh wrote:Show nested quote +On May 12 2011 15:34 flowSthead wrote:On May 12 2011 15:10 darmousseh wrote:On May 12 2011 14:55 GolemMadness wrote:On May 12 2011 14:48 darmousseh wrote:On May 12 2011 14:37 KWik-E wrote:
I feel like the point of this article is to belittle the achievements of the SC2 champions. I feel like the article doesn't address the fact that most of these people who have switched over after having relatively unsuccessful BW careers most likely approached this new game with a work ethic and mind set that they most likely didn't have in their mediocre BW experience. ^^ This reflects my thoughts about the article. Just because they aren't the best RTS gamers in the world should it change anything. In sports, many great athletes choose one sport over another. For example, Michael Jordan was a great basketball player and some of the same athleticism would transfer over to baseball, but it's not 1-1. I think having talent spread out among multiple games is important for ESPORTS. Obviously the best thing for sc2 would be to have the best talent, but I don't think that any pros or any fans of sc2 care right now. The only people that really care about scbw players switching over are those who don't want them to switch over. It would be great to have jaedong, flash, bisu for sure, but I will enjoy watching Nestea, MVP, and MC instead. In the end, I don't understand the point of this article. So Top level bw players haven't switched over and so the best players in sc2 are mid level bw players. Ok, and? Your point as quoted is I am saying that there are 300 current pros and semi-pros that have the potential to come in and dominate SC2 at any moment, with a latency of a few months from the day they switch. Among this group there are a notable few that CRUSH any other players in terms of raw talent and/or work ethic and/or ability to learn. This knowledge cheapens any form of competition I see right now, no matter how much I try to enjoy the games. If the Top 500 football(american) players suddenly switched to soccer, we suddenly would forget the names of the current best soccer players (assuming the transfer of skills is the same as bw/sc2, which it's close enough). Yes that's true, but that doesn't make me think "Oh geez, I don't like soccer because the best athletes are playing american football so I should just watch american football instead". They are different games and while they are related, no one should ever see an "elephant in the room". When I talk to casual fans of watching sc2 I don't say "man, this would be so much better if flash was playing", take sc2 as it is and enjoy it, without any elephants. ...Are you serious? You think that a sport that's only really played in two countries has the best athletes on the planet and the athletes of a sport that's by far the most popular on the planet are inferior? Do you ACTUALLY think this? American football is the #1 sport in the US and all of the best athletes go to play it and IF football was suddenly cancelled and the football players all went to play soccer instead, then yes, the United States would win every single world cup. There is a book about it called Soccernomics if you enjoy reading about sports. Also it's just an analogy, but it's the closest one i can think of. You have no idea what you are talking about. Let's forget for a moment that the only active player on the field of an American Football team uses his foot, and that he uses it in a way which is a very small part of being a Soccer player. Let's forget about that and the fact that all of these players would lack the necessary foot dexterity to play Soccer. The biggest reason why all of these American Football players would fail at Soccer is because their focus in training has never been endurance running, but sprinting. Football has on average 11 minutes of playtime. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704281204575002852055561406.htmlSoccer is a minimum of 90 minutes. Sprinting is important in Soccer as well, but endurance is much more important seeing as you can't sub out all of the players, you have a max of 3 subs per game, so the majority of your players are going to be running for the full 90 minutes. It is not comparable at all, which is why your analogy is terrible. I don't really want to comment on the BroodWar and SC2 situation since frankly I am not that familiar with BroodWar. I can find points of argument on either sides, but it really doesn't matter because of my lack of BroodWar knowledge. But I had to comment on your analogy because it is so awful, it actually makes me a little angry that you would write something so ill informed. Also, not all of the best athletes go to play American Football. That is also ill informed. It takes a different type of skill to play Football than it does to play Basketball, and that it does to play Tennis. All of these different pro sports players have talent, but the reasons they chose their sports could be because they like them, or their talent is more suited to what is desired in that sport, or maybe that was the thing that they played when they were kids. You have literally 0 basis for deciding that all of the best athletes in the U.S. play American Football. It would be literally impossible to find out who all of the best athletes in the U.S. are. Analogies have to have internal logic to be useful. That was way too deep of an analysis. Skill in football(american) and skill in soccer do transfer over, but it would take years to learn the new sport compared to months for sc2. Read that book I reccomended it talks about this analogy exactly. So yes, not EVERY single great athlete plays football, but football draws many of the best players because of it's high prestige and the insane salaries. Being an offensive lineman pays more than being 1 of 5 average guys on an nba team. Almost all great athletes were good at more than one sport. Michael Jordan was great at baseball. Bo Jackson played like 3 sports professionally. The difference is that at the high school level, the best athletes put their time an effort into football more than any other sport. The sports require different mechanical skills (kicking a ball as opposed to tackling or carrying a football), but the mechanics such as running, using your body, reacting, predicting, endurance, etc all carry over to all sports. (Just like how wc3 players and cs players can be good at sc2). While learning a new esport might take less effort than learning a new physical sport, the analogy works and like I said, if you don't believe me read that book, it has statistical proof of what I'm saying.
Frankly, I neither have the time nor the interest to read soccernomics. I will say that I can already spot a glaring error in the analysis, which maybe the book accounts for I don't know, but that is that population size will reflect the talent pool of the top tier. Certainly population size will affect the amount of top tier players, but that has nothing to do with the very top players and teams. As a corollary, the big three countries in terms of Go (the board game) are Japan, China, and Korea. The population of Japan is over twice the population of Korea, yet for many years now Korea has been dominating Japan, and at least on equal footing as China in the pro scene for Go. I don't think I need to state how large of a population China has compared to Korea's.
Perhaps skill does transfer over, but not as easily as you think, and not for everyone. A few of those top 500 may very well do well in Soccer, but all 500 is completely ridiculous.
As for money? That really depends, since the money that athletes are paid is not really related to just what their teams pay them. 5 or 10 years ago, the top 3 athletes in the world in terms of money were I believe Tiger Woods, Michael Jordan, and David Beckham (it was either that or popularity, but either way Tiger Woods was number 1). That is because of all the sponsors, marketing deals, video games, shoes, and who knows what else that they put their name to (Tiger Woods is number 1 for all time anyway).
Also, you are even wrong on the averages. This may be a wikipedia source, but I doubt they are so far wrong that the difference isn't obvious: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Professional_sports
Average highest football salary is for the quarterback at 1.9 million (lower overall average).
Average salary in baseball: 3.1 million
Average salary in basketball: 5.2 million.
Hell, the average salary in hockey is 2.6 million, which is higher than for football.
The statistics in Soccernomics may be good, I wouldn't know. But you clearly do not know what you are talking about.
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On May 12 2011 15:59 Two_DoWn wrote:Show nested quote +On May 12 2011 15:53 kzn wrote:On May 12 2011 15:52 Two_DoWn wrote:On May 12 2011 15:51 kzn wrote:On May 12 2011 15:49 Two_DoWn wrote:On May 12 2011 15:45 kzn wrote:On May 12 2011 15:43 Xenocide_Knight wrote:On May 12 2011 15:41 densha wrote:On May 12 2011 15:35 kzn wrote:
Players who are "carried" by their mechanics in SCBW cannot expect an identical level of success in SC2. That's a great point, nicely stated. I always hated the fact that through just pure mechanics a player can become quite good at BW. Maybe that's why a player like Nestea isn't top tier in that game but is quite amazing in SC2. I'm far more interested in decision making and execution than I am in how fast you can click on your buildings or order workers to mine. Except sc2 pros have very questionable decision making from what i've seen. Maybe players liek Nestea are amazing at SC2 because they are playing against the bottom of the competitive barrel. This is irrelevant. Nothing in my argument or his post makes any claims as to the quality of players in the SC2 scene currently. As far as I can see, it is undeniably, necessarily true that SC2 places relatively more importance on your decisions than your execution. It is comparably easier to improve decision making than it is to improve mechanics. July was first picked up by a BW pro team not because he was any good at the game, but because he could click really fast. I'm not going to grant that without significant supporting evidence. You ignored the bit at the end where I gave it to you... What you gave me doesn't even support your point. For all you know July is naturally talented mechanically. He is naturally talented mechanically. That was the point of what I said. By all accounts I have heard he still couldnt play BW because he had terrible decision making. So he got better, won a golden mouse, and then has come to sc2 in your own terms "the mecca of decision making" and continued to play well. Sooooo, explain how this example doesnt support my point that decision making is easy to learn? If mechanics were so easy to maximize, why do we continually see sloppy play? Why are multi pronged drops, a hallmark of BW, so lacking in sc2? By your logic non bw pros should be able to improve mechanically at a faster rate than the old BW pros who come in with worse decision making and better mechanics. But this is clearly not the case. Old bw pros dominate. And these are the ones who have comparably sloppier mechanics than the top players in the bw scene today.
My logic says nothing of the sort.
One anecdotal example is completely insufficient to make a claim about the ease of learning a particular skill over another. You'd need actual studies.
More to the point, it doesn't even matter. About the only bad thing that comes out of focusing on an "easier" skill is that the skill cap might be hit faster.
And I have a counterexample - it is far harder to get good at Chess or Go than it is to get good at Golf.
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One thing no one can dispute is that Brood War has a higher skill cap. It was a harder game. That is just an accepted fact. However that doesn't mean that we should just give up on SC2. SC2 is a much more friendly game for newcomers to the scene and for people who don't know much about gaming in general and that is the important point. Even if SC2 crashes and burns in the next 2 years it doesn't matter as long as it makes more people aware of the E-Sport scene.
I personally much prefer watching BW to SC2 but I still watch every SC2 tournament I can just because I want to see E-Sports grow (not to mention I do enjoy watching the games). Everyone just has to remember that no matter which game is "better" this is all for the love of E-sports in general whether it's Halo or WoW or CS or SC.
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On May 12 2011 15:46 GTR wrote:Show nested quote +On May 12 2011 15:17 Jibba wrote:On May 12 2011 15:13 Dfgj wrote:On May 12 2011 15:10 HawaiianPig wrote:On May 12 2011 15:06 Dfgj wrote:On May 12 2011 15:03 JIJIyO wrote:
Good shit Intrigue and Hot_Bid. Nice article.
And to people saying SC2 is just one year old, and SC had 10 years to develop, you have to consider the fact on HOW the game grew. The first year of pro SC people were living off cup noodles, sleeping on the floor, used their own winnings just to keep the team alive, etc to play this game. There was no system in place for pro SC when it first came out, and because of this the games were obviously worse compared to the games now. Despite being a different game, SC2 had the basis of SC to build on with team houses, training, etc. Please consider this before using those arguments. This isn't valid. Let's look at modern-day BW - how good are most players after less than a year in a training house? Most aren't even seeing televised games. Flash was still all-ining people TSL_Rain style. The game being new also means players have had less time to develop the best ways to play it. Flash won a title within one year of going pro. Did you read the article? It said this.I can't keep reading the misinformation in some of these comments... I'm going to burst. Burst into laughter, or rage, I don't know yet. Flash won his OSL title on 150308. His first televised game was 150307, precisely one year earlier - and he most certainly was on a team before that, and practicing as such. This is by TLPD and memory, so I (or it) might be a bit off. The case of Flash is a bit weird. Wasn't he still going to high school after he got televised matches? I think it's better to just say that Flash was not a great or good or mediocre player during his first year with BW, and right now most people are approaching a year with SC2. flash is just one of them once-in-an-ESPORTS-generation prodigies.
Yeah, I only brought him up at all because he was an 'extreme' case - the more normal player wouldn't even be seen in their first year.
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Can't believe I just wasted 5 minutes of my life reading this.
User was temp banned for this post.
User was warned for this post
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On May 12 2011 16:01 Devolved wrote:Show nested quote +On May 12 2011 15:49 Firkraag8 wrote:On May 12 2011 15:46 GTR wrote:
flash is just one of them once-in-an-ESPORTS-generation prodigies.
Maybe if you discount future talent, but as in any sport or competition out there, legends will be dethroned and new will be made and it could just as well happen to be an SC2 player. That's not true. Pretty much every sport has a legend that will never be dethroned. The future is irrelevant to a certain few. They are timeless. Michael Jordan. Tiger Woods. Muhammad Ali. Babe Ruth. Flash.
They will remain heroes to everyone but that doesn't mean they could compete at the level were at now. No one knows if they could, they were good in their time but things change.
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First glance post:
Why are Boxer and NaDa not mentioned.. as current S-A class players that were very successful in BW.
If BW records of players like Bomber are mentioned... who was under the age of 10 when BW shined... no one care's that he is 1-2 and it means nothing.
NEW GAME, DIFFERENT GAME, ALWAYS HAS BEEN. I LOVE BOTH, KEEP THEM SEPERATE!
and now to read the trollings
User was warned for this post
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Since when did a presentation of facts become "BW-elitism"?
The people who are succeeding in SC2 were bad at BW. (For Boxer/Nada/July, it was at the end of their careers). Thus it is likely that the current play in SC2 is subpar, since people who are more skilled have not made the switch.
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On May 12 2011 16:00 Synwave wrote:
What a divisive article. Im sorry but this isn't an elephant in the room situation at all. The opinions in the article have been constantly discussed before now to the point of beating a dead horse.
I agree with quite a bit of the points regarding practice ethic, mistakes made, and I will even yield some towards the concept that BW Code-S might be equivalent in SC:2. However its pie-in-the-sky logic to state these opinions as if they were factual. I'm pretty sure since sports was invented there have always been some that say "well if so-n-so were to play this other sport they would dominate!" and Im sure many of those statements down through the ages were in fact accurate. However they don't add anything to the discussion! Furthermore following up a statement like that with "since so-n-so doesn't play in this sport its illegitimate and a farce" is just a fluff statement intended to cause angry response. Considering the responses I can see that worked. The author has certainly achieved the goal of fomenting divisive argument but certainly hasn't revealed any elephants to my eyes just more of the same discussion that has in fact been going on for a year now.
Pretty much, I vote we change the title from "The Elephant in the Room" to "The Dead Horse on the Floor".
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On May 12 2011 16:04 FawkingGoomba wrote:
Since when did a presentation of facts become "BW-elitism"?
The people who are succeeding in SC2 were bad at BW. (For Boxer/Nada/July, it was at the end of their careers). Thus it is likely that the current play in SC2 is subpar, since people who are more skilled have not made the switch.
The bolded part could be considered a fact. The rest of your post not, which is why people are having different opinions.
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On May 12 2011 15:47 danson wrote:
they could make hundreds of thousands of dollars in tourney money by simply crushing face in gsl SC2 is way too volatile at the moment for that to be possible. So SC1 superstars actually earn more in SC1, where their skill generates steady rewards for them.
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On May 12 2011 16:04 FawkingGoomba wrote:
Since when did a presentation of facts become "BW-elitism"?
The people who are succeeding in SC2 were bad at BW. (For Boxer/Nada/July, it was at the end of their careers). Thus it is likely that the current play in SC2 is subpar, since people who are more skilled have not made the switch.
Because the conclusion is that the competition thus far is a farce.
Every BW game from the past is equally sub-par compared to today, and the players relatively terrible, yet that doesn't discredit them or make them worthy of a front-page bashing.
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On May 12 2011 13:32 intrigue wrote:
That's why seeing MC say that Flash would do well in SC2 is such a facepalm moment.
And whats this freakin lonk article all about? Whining cuz you think that the better bw players would own sc2?^^
BW fan who is annoyed that sc2 gets more attention everywhere in the world outside of Korea? (Starting with "the three GSL winners" and not mentioning MVP at that point didnt help...)
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On May 12 2011 16:02 JoFritzMD wrote:
One thing no one can dispute is that Brood War has a higher skill cap. It was a harder game. That is just an accepted fact. However that doesn't mean that we should just give up on SC2. SC2 is a much more friendly game for newcomers to the scene and for people who don't know much about gaming in general and that is the important point. Even if SC2 crashes and burns in the next 2 years it doesn't matter as long as it makes more people aware of the E-Sport scene.
I don't think that anybody would try to argue that BW isn't a "harder" game, but how much of that is fighting with an antiquated 13 year old control system? Starcraft's controls were really good at the time but there really isn't any denying that it's one aspect of the game that has not aged well at all.
In fact I would argue that a very large part of why BW players are "better" than Starcraft 2 players is because constantly fighting with the controls forces you to be better.
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On May 12 2011 16:04 norsK wrote:
First glance post:
Why are Boxer and NaDa not mentioned.. as current S-A class players that were very successful in BW.
If BW records of players like Bomber are mentioned... who was under the age of 10 when BW shined... no one care's that he is 1-2 and it means nothing.
NEW GAME, DIFFERENT GAME, ALWAYS HAS BEEN. I LOVE BOTH, KEEP THEM SEPERATE!
and now to read the trollings
Read again. They're both in there.
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EPT
