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On May 12 2011 15:39 Zamiel wrote:
Unfortunately, the game has been out for a while now and I think that the answer is no, which sucks because both I and most of the people here at TeamLiquid love SC2.
What? I dont remember SC's esport revolution happening in a year? An your the one giving shit for people only registered for a year (which is such a lol argument, GG on that one).
Still your post brings up a far more interesting debate than the one Intrigue wrote up about (yeah spending hours trying to bring down Sc2 competitions is just -.- ). Will SC2 make the Esports flower that SC BW planted years ago blossom? (to put it in a very, oh so very gay way :D )
I believe that a lot of "out of the gam" factors are not taken into account by most people participating in this debate, in particular the fact that video games in general are a lot more accepted than they were 10 years ago. Anyways thats a whole new subject.
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This was a great read for me, as im pretty new to the history of brood war. I feel that as these "gods of rts" come over it will create a stride for players all over the world to get better. Which is a great thing for the game the way I see it. I look forward to seeing this play out.! : )
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On May 12 2011 15:34 Moonwrath wrote:
It's hard to take this article seriously because I need a goddamn chainsaw to hack through all the Brood War bias bullshit. SC2 is a different game, there's literally no evidence that if BW pros switched they would automatically start raping everyone. They might. Hell they probably would, but you can't know for sure unless they actually switch. Even if they did switch and stomp, that doesn't prove anything other than those players like Flash are amazing. But you already knew that.
So basically you can't take any predictions or conjectures seriously because they haven't been proved, regardless of supporting evidence?
So... there goes anyone saying that Chelsea would beat Man City, or that Manny Pacquiao would beat my little sister in a fist fight. I guess you also can't take the Big Bang Theory seriously as well, since it's not confirmed by direct observation.
You must not be a very serious person.
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This receives the official stamp of fail~
User was warned for this post
User was warned for this post
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On May 12 2011 15:45 kzn wrote:Show nested quote +On May 12 2011 15:43 Xenocide_Knight wrote:On May 12 2011 15:41 densha wrote:On May 12 2011 15:35 kzn wrote:
Players who are "carried" by their mechanics in SCBW cannot expect an identical level of success in SC2. That's a great point, nicely stated. I always hated the fact that through just pure mechanics a player can become quite good at BW. Maybe that's why a player like Nestea isn't top tier in that game but is quite amazing in SC2. I'm far more interested in decision making and execution than I am in how fast you can click on your buildings or order workers to mine. Except sc2 pros have very questionable decision making from what i've seen. Maybe players liek Nestea are amazing at SC2 because they are playing against the bottom of the competitive barrel. This is irrelevant. Nothing in my argument or his post makes any claims as to the quality of players in the SC2 scene currently. As far as I can see, it is undeniably, necessarily true that SC2 places relatively more importance on your decisions than your execution.
It is comparably easier to improve decision making than it is to improve mechanics. July was first picked up by a BW pro team not because he was any good at the game, but because he could click really fast.
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On May 12 2011 15:31 Douillos wrote:Show nested quote +On May 12 2011 15:10 yiodee wrote:
what everybody should get from this article is that IdrA should stop crying about imbalance and start practicing for real. It is hard to believe that a pro that was in korean doesn't believe in practicing because "mechanics are not that important in sc2, i just need to think about the game". LOL
So please, could you please explain to me why you have found it necessary to write up a whole article to critisize the development of the Sc2 competitive scene? Dont you get the bigger picure? Sc2 is the next step. It's worldwide E-sports. It's people outside of the community talking about it, it's TV shows. So what if JD or Flash would rape any Sc2 player? I dont get it. I find your write up very short-sighted. Also being derogative towards recent Sc2 competitions is a sign of unjustified disrespect towards (even if It wasnt what was intended) a lot of people who have been putting a fuck tone of effort into making this game something big . Dont take this the wrong way. I understand you opinion, I just find it so reactionary that I dont understand it's on first page of a site which has always battled for the development of E-sports.
great post right here. It doesn't matter if the skill level is not "as good" right now. What matters is the way the community is supporting a game right now. It would be foolish to say that if SC2 becomes more popular, BW won't benefit from it, even if it is just a little.
But if the pros switch they will be sooo gosu blah blah... who cares??? honestly, I will be happy if they do because they would play the game better and it will be just a lot more interesting to watch, the community would embrace it even more and e-sports would continue to grow left and right, westward and eastward.
OP's article almost just seems like somebody wanted to get all this BW elitism out of his chest. Even though his claims are 100% correct, they are not constructing anything here. You just started a huge BW vs SC2 war. The elephant was there and we could all see it, we had already talked about it enough.
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i love this article thank you
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On May 12 2011 15:46 GTR wrote:
flash is just one of them once-in-an-ESPORTS-generation prodigies.
Maybe if you discount future talent, but as in any sport or competition out there, legends will be dethroned and new will be made and it could just as well happen to be an SC2 player.
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THis was just pure eye happiness spouting at me. Loved it all. Hope this makes people think ^___^
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On May 12 2011 13:59 Helix wrote:
Definitely interesting, and I think you make a lot of good points, but I remain unconvinced that a bunch of BW pros will switch in and just take over the scene.
Like Datum said, the people you mention who would switch and destroy the scene are literally the best players in the world for BW (Flash, Jaedong, Bisu...). That doesn't mean that all really good BW pros will switch and take over the SC2 scene.
But, I guess we'll see if/when they decide to switch. I'm just not a fan of making sweeping predictions like that with precious few data to go on.
This is the articles one flaw, not that a bunch of kids wont come over, but to make you understand how good they are. What people dont understand is that Flash Jd Bisu and Stork are in a realm of their own, and they still lose. When he said magnitude greater he means that mc was literally several classes lower in skill level, and that their are hundreds of kids in that huge huge gap between them. For example, S2 and Kwanro, or Grape, or even Reality, come out ahead of these players by a lot, and flash and jd make them look like fools. Not only that but above them you have sea, leta, hyuk, zero, jangbi, all players that at this point are 2 magnitudes better than mc ever was or could be. There are over a hundred players that fill that gap between mc and flash, and thats what hes saying. You guys simply dont understand how bad mc is compared to everyone, he wasnt average, he was terrible, so terrible that literally their exist to many names to count that are better than him on multiple levels
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Glad to see someone(s) wrote this down, i had pretty much the same thoughts, less structured and documented ofc
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Amazing read!
Great work
Goes to show just how different BW and SCII are, completely separate games
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These are different games though. Idra says often that he doesn't need to practice his mechanics that much and I believe that to be true. I feel this is also showcased by the success from Sjow and other low-apm players.
This game demands less mechanics and more of other kinds of preparations such as sniping and other strategy things.
Wc3 had some of their best players switch over and I think it will be fine when more sc1 pros get into sc2. They will be among the best but I'm pretty sure Idra, Naniwa etc will do well against them.
Tyler and Ret was considered the two most talented sc1 players or at least among the most talented outside of Korea. They have done well but nothing amazing really (but they might any day) I mean they are in the mix. Sc1 pros will also be in the mix
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On May 12 2011 15:44 illsick wrote:
it's also important to point out that MC (the one who is consider the best atm in sc2) has the lowest win % in BW out of the ones listed but yet is better than the BW pros that switched over with more % wins than him.
Why doesn't that translate him being behind those other players if BW status is so accurate?
but what I do agree with the article is that BW pros have better work ethics and practice mindsets, but as the sc2 scene grows.... those will follow as well. Right now sc2 in korea has less tournaments. I remember reading an article about the startale team complaining how they wish there was more leagues and tournaments which they can practice for.
SC2 is still actively balance patched. early wins by FD/MC were on early versions of the game. (is it still bannable to point out racial imbalances of previous patches and flawed maps that were since adjusted because of imbalance?)
to avoid a ban for mentioning "imbalance", i'll just say SC2 is still a very volatile game where even previous champions lose early enough and in Up/Down matches to find their way to Code A. and that's current SC2. early SC2 was even more volatile.
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On May 12 2011 15:49 Two_DoWn wrote:Show nested quote +On May 12 2011 15:45 kzn wrote:On May 12 2011 15:43 Xenocide_Knight wrote:On May 12 2011 15:41 densha wrote:On May 12 2011 15:35 kzn wrote:
Players who are "carried" by their mechanics in SCBW cannot expect an identical level of success in SC2. That's a great point, nicely stated. I always hated the fact that through just pure mechanics a player can become quite good at BW. Maybe that's why a player like Nestea isn't top tier in that game but is quite amazing in SC2. I'm far more interested in decision making and execution than I am in how fast you can click on your buildings or order workers to mine. Except sc2 pros have very questionable decision making from what i've seen. Maybe players liek Nestea are amazing at SC2 because they are playing against the bottom of the competitive barrel. This is irrelevant. Nothing in my argument or his post makes any claims as to the quality of players in the SC2 scene currently. As far as I can see, it is undeniably, necessarily true that SC2 places relatively more importance on your decisions than your execution. It is comparably easier to improve decision making than it is to improve mechanics. July was first picked up by a BW pro team not because he was any good at the game, but because he could click really fast.
I'm not going to grant that without significant supporting evidence.
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Great article. Agree with almost all points, but most of all... FINALLY A NEW FINAL EDIT.
Funny reading/skimming the comments, a lot of angry SC2 fans. lol.
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is the point of the article that top bw pros would do extremely well/dominate in sc2 if they transfer?
well obviously we all know that already.
but i don't really see the point of this article besides informing people why top sc1 pros switching over would do extremely well, which we already know anyway.
there's not much we can do about the current sc2 competition but just try to enjoy it's growth. sure in the back of our heads, there will always be flash/jaedong-esque reminiscing going on, but they aren't going to switch over for a long time anyway so you have to just settle with whatever less talented crop we have in sc2 right now.
and if it's underwhelming, just stop watching sc2....like me! =)
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On May 12 2011 15:51 kzn wrote:Show nested quote +On May 12 2011 15:49 Two_DoWn wrote:On May 12 2011 15:45 kzn wrote:On May 12 2011 15:43 Xenocide_Knight wrote:On May 12 2011 15:41 densha wrote:On May 12 2011 15:35 kzn wrote:
Players who are "carried" by their mechanics in SCBW cannot expect an identical level of success in SC2. That's a great point, nicely stated. I always hated the fact that through just pure mechanics a player can become quite good at BW. Maybe that's why a player like Nestea isn't top tier in that game but is quite amazing in SC2. I'm far more interested in decision making and execution than I am in how fast you can click on your buildings or order workers to mine. Except sc2 pros have very questionable decision making from what i've seen. Maybe players liek Nestea are amazing at SC2 because they are playing against the bottom of the competitive barrel. This is irrelevant. Nothing in my argument or his post makes any claims as to the quality of players in the SC2 scene currently. As far as I can see, it is undeniably, necessarily true that SC2 places relatively more importance on your decisions than your execution. It is comparably easier to improve decision making than it is to improve mechanics. July was first picked up by a BW pro team not because he was any good at the game, but because he could click really fast. I'm not going to grant that without significant supporting evidence.
You ignored the bit at the end where I gave it to you...
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No, he isn't right... Most stupid article I have ever read. I love watching BW ( I have more respect for BW pros, because BW is much harder to play and master ). But the point here is SC2 is a totally different game and doesn't have the same skill requirement as BW. They are different games, different people will dominate in it, and even if Flash switched, he wouldn't "own everyone" or magically revolutionize the game because it's just not as demanding mechanically as BW.
The skill ceiling for SC2 has been hit or is really close to being hit. Your basically saying the best chess player could switch to checkers and beat the best checkers player with ease? No. There would be a learning process, there would be struggles, since it's a DIFFERENT game. BW pros have more RAW MECHANIC TALENT, but SC2 does not require this. Not even close. Your point is... you don't have a point actually.
The games are WORLDS apart, they only share the name "Starcraft".
l
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EPT
