|
is awesome32282 Posts
On May 12 2011 15:30 emecee wrote:Show nested quote +On May 12 2011 15:26 IntoTheWow wrote:On May 12 2011 14:51 sc14s wrote:On May 12 2011 14:35 Flowjo wrote:On May 12 2011 14:32 sc14s wrote:On May 12 2011 13:52 Zrana wrote:
You didn't mention NaDa or July as much as you should have. Both amazing at sc1 (capable of beating flash/JD at times iirc but not rocking SC2 as hard as you say they should)
Different game, different skills. Mechanics mean slightly less, strategy slightly more. Sure some is transferable, but this really seems like more of the same tired old BW was better whine.
You say that there are hundreds of players who could come in and dominate SC2 at any moment. Well why haven't they? There's nothing to stop them taking the GSL, TSL and NASL prize pools. More than enough incentive.
The answer is that SC2 is still being figured out, and it takes a different sort of player to excel at a young game than a game where the rules have already been written.
Also you imply that SC2 is invalid as a sport until we have some godllike figure like Flash. Was football invalid before Beckham, Formula 1 before Schumacher?
No, they were still fun to watch. (well i dont like football but lots do) ^ what he said not what he said.....2010 Nada or July would not be "capable of beating flash/JD". This entire post actually has alot of misinformation. actually, yes what he said.. i can have my own opinion <.< and on top of that he isnt stating misinformation just an opinion.. which he can also have.. you know the difference right? all he was saying is SC2 is enjoyable REGARDLESS of that fact that the "best" havent swapped yet (if they will ever). Football not having a figure before Beckham is a wrong fact, not an opinion. Same with the Flash/JD vs NaDa/July thing. do you know what facts and opinions are?
Yes.
You don't need to use sarcasm with me. If I'm giving long thought responses in the thread, it means I'm reading. So when you post like that, I feel insulted.
To make myself more clear. Saying:
"Also you imply that SC2 is invalid as a sport until we have some godllike figure like Flash. Was football invalid before Beckham, Formula 1 before Schumacher?"
Is stretching what intrigue wrote and twisting it around is not a valid argument. First, intrigue never said it made it invalid.
It deters from not having a/several godlike figure? sure. There's examples to look at in every sport. Some easy ones to spot are Tennis and Football, for example.
While football isn't any more "invalid" before Beckham (hint: Beckham was not -by far- a godlike figure, and even for something in the spotlight, he was neither the first one, or the last one, so I don't see why he named him in particular, Same with Schumy, save that yeah, he was godlike).
When football started going big (televised world cups are probably a good starting point) was about the time where football stars started getting more spotlight (kind of obvious) and with them the sport grew even more. Pele, Cryuff, Maradona, etc. Before that? Only later on, would previous stars really be recognized.
How many americans didn't know about the rules of football properly in the last world cup but knew who Donovan was and cheered for him? How many times have people talked about that match Barcelona lost? How much talking did we get when Federer's #1 spot was in danger?
In my country at least, there are several national teams that have good results in legit sports (olympic disciplines and team games) but don't get recognition, while a struggling basketball team, an injured Del Potro, a returning Coria will get people to cheer for them, even if they don't follow the sport at all.
How do you introduce someone to BW? How about someone to tennis? Personally I would show them Nadal, or Federer. You tell them how he's the best, and how he can't be taken down. How Nadal has a ridiculous physical work routine that leaves him in bed after each series, but that what makes him so good. In less than 10' people have someone to look for. Demons, rules, underdogs, etc. All made with name branding.
So yeah, godlike figures and people staying at the top are important. What good is following a player if he can be gone in 1 month from the big leagues? Who really follow amateur players? probably the already rooted, hardcore fanbase.
ps: sorry for the long post.
|
On May 12 2011 15:52 Two_DoWn wrote:Show nested quote +On May 12 2011 15:51 kzn wrote:On May 12 2011 15:49 Two_DoWn wrote:On May 12 2011 15:45 kzn wrote:On May 12 2011 15:43 Xenocide_Knight wrote:On May 12 2011 15:41 densha wrote:On May 12 2011 15:35 kzn wrote:
Players who are "carried" by their mechanics in SCBW cannot expect an identical level of success in SC2. That's a great point, nicely stated. I always hated the fact that through just pure mechanics a player can become quite good at BW. Maybe that's why a player like Nestea isn't top tier in that game but is quite amazing in SC2. I'm far more interested in decision making and execution than I am in how fast you can click on your buildings or order workers to mine. Except sc2 pros have very questionable decision making from what i've seen. Maybe players liek Nestea are amazing at SC2 because they are playing against the bottom of the competitive barrel. This is irrelevant. Nothing in my argument or his post makes any claims as to the quality of players in the SC2 scene currently. As far as I can see, it is undeniably, necessarily true that SC2 places relatively more importance on your decisions than your execution. It is comparably easier to improve decision making than it is to improve mechanics. July was first picked up by a BW pro team not because he was any good at the game, but because he could click really fast. I'm not going to grant that without significant supporting evidence. You ignored the bit at the end where I gave it to you...
What you gave me doesn't even support your point. For all you know July is naturally talented mechanically.
|
On May 12 2011 13:55 Azurues wrote:
Very good read. The SC1 will not just die, but it will only get better if not out "macro" SC2 players.
I don't think that was the driving point of this Final Edit at all (which was superb, btw). Read the quote below for example.
He sounded confident though, and I’m glad of it – foreigners are going to desperately need confidence if they are to keep up. Brood War's drawing power for live audiences has waned since the golden days, and I do not believe that the entire top tier of Brood War players will stay in that strange parallel world. They'll be here, a few at a time. Oh man, they’re coming.
There's no reason to push this towards a BW v SC2 squabble, we should be celebrating the return of Final Edits instead!
|
First, I completely agree that Flash, JD, and Bisu would be exceptionally strong SC2 players.
However, there are still plenty of reasons to disassociate with the idea that skill at BW leads to (or that lack of BW skill inhibits, as this author suggests) skill at SC2. For example, suppose that MC didn't have great BW mechanics/multitasking ability, but had exceptional decision making that his hands couldn't keep up with. Enter SC2: a game that requires far less hand speed than BW. All of a sudden, MC looks really good because he can execute his decision making with "improved" mechanical ability. The factor that was holding MC back in BW is now removed, and his talent relative to other players has increased, partly because the player pool is worse, but also because the differences between BW and SC2 accentuated MC's natural abilities.
That example may be a bit far-fetched as pretty much anyone who makes it on to a BW pro team has impeccable mechanics, but there are many other examples one can think of: perhaps a player relies on the vast strategy knowledge that has been developed by previous players and is incapable of developing new strategies or build orders. This might not be too much of an issue in BW, but would most likely be a major handicap in SC2 due to the age of the game and the fact that balance changes and expansions are still being released which necessitate changes in strategy.
"Talent" in RTS is a loose term that is a combination of many different, more specialized talent aspects: fast hands, creative development of strategies, ability to make the correct decision quickly in real time, etc. Maybe SC2 places different "weights" on these factors that would drastically alter the talent totem pole when compared to BW. Maybe not. Now if you're the best in the world at all of these different factors (read: Flash), then you probably don't have to worry about it. But for everyone else, who knows? The only thing we can say with any certainty is that it is too early to tell.
|
I'd like to use another sample of limited size to prove a point:
TSL3, based on the results we can draw the conclusion that being a Swedish ex-wc3 player is a bigger advantage than the one you get from having been brood war pro.
|
On May 12 2011 15:51 Patriot.dlk wrote:
These are different games though. Idra says often that he doesn't need to practice his mechanics that much and and believe that to be true. I feel this is also showcased by the success from Sjow and other low-apm players.
This game demands less mechanics and more of other kinds of preparations such as sniping and other strategy things.
Wc3 had some of their best players switch over and I think it will be fine when more sc1 pros get into sc2. They will be among the best but I'm pretty sure Idra, Naniwa etc will do well against them
Even though I disagree with Intrigue on his actual opinion of the SC2 competitive scene, i cant agree more than Sc2 skill level will grow with people actually starting to train like they would in BW.
That's just a no brainer.
|
great read, interesting points, and gives me hope since iw asnt a pro at bw
|
Bleh, so many things to rant about.
First and foremost, this article is dripping with Brood War elitism. Most of the points contribute in some way or another to the argument that StarCraft II (or at least the "Pro-scene") is inferior to the "Pro-scene" of Brood War. This immediately marks it in my mind as an opinion that someone is trying to convince others of. In that regard, it is a well written (maybe a little condescending) persuasive article. It gives a number of reasons, is well researched, and, most importantly to everyone that reads a lot of articles, it is very well formatted. However, I've been unswayed by this argument for a number of reasons.
A big one, is that there is no modern equivalent to what can happen in E-Sports, which is to say, creating a wildly popular, and competitive sport, and then releasing a sequel to said sport. This is a unique property that all E-Sports can share. However, that doesn't mean there haven't been similar incidents. Earlier in the thread, someone brought up the argument of Michael Jordan switching from Basketball to Baseball, and this is one of the greatest examples of why the article hasn't convinced me: we just don't know what's going to happen!
When Michael Jordan played in the NBA, he was, without a doubt, one of the greatest professional athletes ever. Then he switched to Baseball, and his career turned out somewhat mediocre. Did this stop him from being one of the greatest professional athletes in the world? No, he was still one of the best, but he just wasn't as good at Baseball as he was at Basketball. This is evidence of something that seems like common sense: skill in one area doesn't necessarily transfer to another area. Even with all of his raw athleticism and talent, honed by years of hard work, Michael Jordan was not a hall of fame Baseball player.
So I'll just end on a weak note, by saying that we'll never know how good all of the top level Brood War players will be in StarCraft II unless they start playing and show us. Any speculation is both useless, and somewhat detrimental to the community when we belittle the current players that are building the foundation of a competitive sport. Though, I doubt this post will garner much attention, because I seem to be pissing in an ocean of piss (to use a vulgar, yet oddly applicable metaphor).
|
Holy shit this is the best thing i've ever read...
|
On May 12 2011 15:52 TheArtOfFugue wrote:
No, he isn't right... Most stupid article I have ever read. I love watching BW ( I have more respect for BW pros, because BW is much harder to play and master ). But the point here is SC2 is a totally different game and doesn't have the same skill requirement as BW. They are different games, different people will dominate in it, and even if Flash switched, he wouldn't "own everyone" or magically revolutionize the game because it's just not as demanding mechanically as BW.
The skill ceiling for SC2 has been hit or is really close to being hit. Your basically saying the best chess player could switch to checkers and beat the best checkers player with ease? No. There would be a learning process, there would be struggles, since it's a DIFFERENT game. BW pros have more RAW MECHANIC TALENT, but SC2 does not require this. Not even close. Your point is... you don't have a point actually.
The games are WORLDS apart, they only share the name "Starcraft".
l
The skill ceiling has been hit? Joke or what?
|
I just don't see the point of this massive discussion..or argument depending on how you read some of these reply's. So.. what am I supposed to take away from this? BW pro's can switch at any moment and destroy sc2 pro's? cool.. ? sc2 is alive and well with so much backing it, why does this even matter.
|
you guys need to stop over-analyzing this, I mean how good was the sc1 scene one year after it's launch?
|
Artosis
"The Elephant in the Room" on TL.net is terribly ignorant. A few stats to prove a wrong point, with no real backstory to these pros."
I would have to agree with him on this
|
So no Final Edit for a year and then this? It's a sulk article written from an ivory tower of "boo hoo, no one will ever be better then BW players, so SC2 sucks." There was a time when an article went up on the front page and I'd be forced to show my friends it. Instead the fanboyism has turned toxic and the love for the game is replaced with a form of nerd rage that really isn't helping anyone. I'm honestly disappointed.
Also great job hyping up TSL I really liked how this subtly diminished the accomplishments of Thorzain and Naniwa. (That's sarcasm btw, really, really bitter sarcasm)
|
On May 12 2011 15:53 kzn wrote:Show nested quote +On May 12 2011 15:52 Two_DoWn wrote:On May 12 2011 15:51 kzn wrote:On May 12 2011 15:49 Two_DoWn wrote:On May 12 2011 15:45 kzn wrote:On May 12 2011 15:43 Xenocide_Knight wrote:On May 12 2011 15:41 densha wrote:On May 12 2011 15:35 kzn wrote:
Players who are "carried" by their mechanics in SCBW cannot expect an identical level of success in SC2. That's a great point, nicely stated. I always hated the fact that through just pure mechanics a player can become quite good at BW. Maybe that's why a player like Nestea isn't top tier in that game but is quite amazing in SC2. I'm far more interested in decision making and execution than I am in how fast you can click on your buildings or order workers to mine. Except sc2 pros have very questionable decision making from what i've seen. Maybe players liek Nestea are amazing at SC2 because they are playing against the bottom of the competitive barrel. This is irrelevant. Nothing in my argument or his post makes any claims as to the quality of players in the SC2 scene currently. As far as I can see, it is undeniably, necessarily true that SC2 places relatively more importance on your decisions than your execution. It is comparably easier to improve decision making than it is to improve mechanics. July was first picked up by a BW pro team not because he was any good at the game, but because he could click really fast. I'm not going to grant that without significant supporting evidence. You ignored the bit at the end where I gave it to you... What you gave me doesn't even support your point. For all you know July is naturally talented mechanically.
He is naturally talented mechanically. That was the point of what I said. By all accounts I have heard he still couldnt play BW because he had terrible decision making. So he got better, won a golden mouse, and then has come to sc2 in your own terms "the mecca of decision making" and continued to play well.
Sooooo, explain how this example doesnt support my point that decision making is easy to learn?
If mechanics were so easy to maximize, why do we continually see sloppy play? Why are multi pronged drops, a hallmark of BW, so lacking in sc2? By your logic non bw pros should be able to improve mechanically at a faster rate than the old BW pros who come in with worse decision making and better mechanics. But this is clearly not the case. Old bw pros dominate. And these are the ones who have comparably sloppier mechanics than the top players in the bw scene today.
|
On May 12 2011 15:48 raviy wrote:Show nested quote +On May 12 2011 15:34 Moonwrath wrote:
It's hard to take this article seriously because I need a goddamn chainsaw to hack through all the Brood War bias bullshit. SC2 is a different game, there's literally no evidence that if BW pros switched they would automatically start raping everyone. They might. Hell they probably would, but you can't know for sure unless they actually switch. Even if they did switch and stomp, that doesn't prove anything other than those players like Flash are amazing. But you already knew that. So basically you can't take any predictions or conjectures seriously because they haven't been proved, regardless of supporting evidence? So... there goes anyone saying that Chelsea would beat Man City, or that Manny Pacquiao would beat my little sister in a fist fight. I guess you also can't take the Big Bang Theory seriously as well, since it's not confirmed by direct observation. You must not be a very serious person.
I'd bet on your sister.
|
My prime argument for why this is not true is because BW has been analyzed with a fine tooth comb and the "game" is much more defined. SC2 is still floaty and there are few "truths" about how to play it.
|
|
|
I agree, games doesnt matter, ridiculous amount of practice and talent proven by constant struggle against the best of the best daily -DO.
|
On May 12 2011 15:41 densha wrote:Show nested quote +On May 12 2011 15:35 kzn wrote:
Players who are "carried" by their mechanics in SCBW cannot expect an identical level of success in SC2. That's a great point, nicely stated. I always hated the fact that through just pure mechanics a player can become quite good at BW. Maybe that's why a player like Nestea isn't top tier in that game but is quite amazing in SC2. I'm far more interested in decision making and execution than I am in how fast you can click on your buildings or order workers to mine.
I touched on this in my previous post but this is one of those misconceptions people who didn't play or follow BW have about BW players.
The mechanical benchmark today of any A-teamer is so extremely high that what seperates the wheat from the chaff is usually game sense, multitasking and decision-making.
For example Flash is known mostly for his absurd game sense and decision making rather than mechanics.
Another point would be Idra who was known for being very mechanical but lacking severly in game sense and decision-making and he's doing alright in SC2.
So claiming BW is all mechanics and SC2 is all about decision-making is in my opinion just not true.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
