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It's a good read but all that is quite hypothetical.
Most of the community were thinking that, within the foreign scene, the ex SC1 players would just dominate the ex WC3 players on SC2, but we are seeing something quite different, almost the opposite in fact, with two ex WC3 players facing each others in final of the TSL3, crushing MC, FruitDealer and such.
In Korea, the SC2 community is made / dominated by ex BW pro because the SC1 scene is so big that it impact so much with any kind of esport.
In my opinion, SC2 demand different skills from SC1, and even if players such as Flash and JD are overwhelming, I'm not sure they will dominate that much.
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Very pleased and grateful to see an article like this go up. Provides an analysis and insight into the actual reasons why many have said there is a skill gap that exists between the two games with plenty of context. More importantly though, I think the most significant thing about the article is giving that key understanding of just how demanding in mindset/routine professional BW competition is to even get to "A-team" level, something SC2 has to grow into, I suppose.
As always, greatly appreciated.
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None of this says anything about the level of competitive play, though. SC2 pros are amazing at SC2, and that's that. It doesn't actually matter if the top SC2 pros right now were C and D teamers. They eat, breathe, and sleep SC2 for a year, they're gonna play pretty well. Could a Jaedong or a Flash come onto the scene and dominate? Maybe. Maybe not. Doesn't much matter, really.
It seems to me this elephant was dragged kicking and screaming into a previously peaceful, serene room.
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On May 12 2011 15:52 IntoTheWow wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On May 12 2011 15:30 emecee wrote:Show nested quote +On May 12 2011 15:26 IntoTheWow wrote:On May 12 2011 14:51 sc14s wrote:On May 12 2011 14:35 Flowjo wrote:On May 12 2011 14:32 sc14s wrote:On May 12 2011 13:52 Zrana wrote:
You didn't mention NaDa or July as much as you should have. Both amazing at sc1 (capable of beating flash/JD at times iirc but not rocking SC2 as hard as you say they should)
Different game, different skills. Mechanics mean slightly less, strategy slightly more. Sure some is transferable, but this really seems like more of the same tired old BW was better whine.
You say that there are hundreds of players who could come in and dominate SC2 at any moment. Well why haven't they? There's nothing to stop them taking the GSL, TSL and NASL prize pools. More than enough incentive.
The answer is that SC2 is still being figured out, and it takes a different sort of player to excel at a young game than a game where the rules have already been written.
Also you imply that SC2 is invalid as a sport until we have some godllike figure like Flash. Was football invalid before Beckham, Formula 1 before Schumacher?
No, they were still fun to watch. (well i dont like football but lots do) ^ what he said not what he said.....2010 Nada or July would not be "capable of beating flash/JD". This entire post actually has alot of misinformation. actually, yes what he said.. i can have my own opinion <.< and on top of that he isnt stating misinformation just an opinion.. which he can also have.. you know the difference right? all he was saying is SC2 is enjoyable REGARDLESS of that fact that the "best" havent swapped yet (if they will ever). Football not having a figure before Beckham is a wrong fact, not an opinion. Same with the Flash/JD vs NaDa/July thing. do you know what facts and opinions are? Yes. You don't need to use sarcasm with me. If I'm giving long thought responses in the thread, it means I'm reading. So when you post like that, I feel insulted. To make myself more clear. Saying: "Also you imply that SC2 is invalid as a sport until we have some godllike figure like Flash. Was football invalid before Beckham, Formula 1 before Schumacher?" Is stretching what intrigue wrote and twisting it around is not a valid argument. First, intrigue never said it made it invalid. It deters from not having a/several godlike figure? sure. There's examples to look at in every sport. Some easy ones to spot are Tennis and Football, for example. While football isn't any more "invalid" before Beckham (hint: Beckham was not -by far- a godlike figure, and even for something in the spotlight, he was neither the first one, or the last one, so I don't see why he named him in particular, Same with Schumy, save that yeah, he was godlike). When football started going big (televised world cups are probably a good starting point) was about the time where football stars started getting more spotlight (kind of obvious) and with them the sport grew even more. Pele, Cryuff, Maradona, etc. Before that? Only later on, would previous stars really be recognized. How many americans didn't know about the rules of football properly in the last world cup but knew who Donovan was and cheered for him? How many times have people talked about that match Barcelona lost? How much talking did we get when Federer's #1 spot was in danger? In my country at least, there are several national teams that have good results in legit sports (olympic disciplines and team games) but don't get recognition, while a struggling basketball team, an injured Del Potro, a returning Coria will get people to cheer for them, even if they don't follow the sport at all. How do you introduce someone to BW? How about someone to tennis? Personally I would show them Nadal, or Federer. You tell them how he's the best, and how he can't be taken down. How Nadal has a ridiculous physical work routine that leaves him in bed after each series, but that what makes him so good. In less than 10' people have someone to look for. Demons, rules, underdogs, etc. All made with name branding. So yeah, godlike figures and people staying at the top are important. What good is following a player if he can be gone in 1 month from the big leagues? Who really follow amateur players? probably the already rooted, hardcore fanbase. ps: sorry for the long post.
This is an interesting point but I think what brings most people across to SC2 is not the names but the game itself. I guess using your example it would be like somone being given a tennis racquet, playing with some mates and then reading about the pro scene.
They might do the same for lawn bowls for all I know. Tennis is much bigger and has a much larger fanbase than lawn bowls and is perceived as a more legit sport. Does that mean that lawn bowls competitions are a farce?
I see what you are saying but I do not think that this article is NOT the way to introduce people to broodwar. People will learn about BW through SC2, mocking the state of SC2 does not help either game.
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On May 12 2011 14:50 Mordiford wrote:Show nested quote +On May 12 2011 14:46 Probulous wrote:On May 12 2011 14:33 BadWithNames wrote:
So you liken SC2 to high school football, call it's competition a farce, it's players bad, even lay in nice little dig at SC2 having more luck, bo wins, and a-move armies. All this article really manages to do is attempt to quantitatively prove that BroodWar players practice harder, make more money, play better and have a better overall scene than sc2, as such is still a completely divisive. It's not even well formed for a giant what if scenario as any objective opinion is cancelled out by aforementioned back handed insults. It just drips too much of BW elitism. This really shines through when you make the argument that the top BW players won't switch because of they make so much money then need to basically say at the end "but if they did they'd kick your players asses." I usually love liquid articles, but to go after one year game with the might that is the Korean Broodwar industry is forum trash. If anyones knowledge of the Broodwar scene and it's theoretical potential interaction into SC2 is cheapening SC2 for you I wonder how those people make it through life where tons of theoretical potential interactions can cheapen everything.
Broodwar realized a potential no one ever saw coming, and too many of it's fans spend too much effort making sure people "know" SC2 has a mountain to climb, questioning if it can manage it at all, while occasionally declaring that it can't or won't, often sighting it's impossibilities of success unless the Broodwar pros switch. I'm probably, and hopefully, missing something but that is pretty much all I see here.
There's another giant elephant in the room that became a giant elephant because new SC2 fans (particularly on this site) were welcomed with "it's not broodwar" and "sc2 fans are idiots" and as such took the next logical step, stopped really giving a damn what happens with BW and KeSPA since games are practically everywhere. How an article like this bridges that divide I don't know...I'm an idiot. You sir are NOT an idiot. I get the same condescension vibe from this article. It is one thing to say that BW pros have a much higher potential skill level. It is something completely different to say that everything SC2 is a farce and cheapened because it's not BW. It is certainly no way to bring people across to BW. It just paints BW supporters are snobby elites. If you enjoy SC2, enjoy it and don't listen to the naysayers. This article is divisive and makes no relevant point. Phew, glad some of us are on the same page... I didn't find it a particularly good read. Some of the stats posted seem shallow and altogether irrelevant because the number of games played don't so much so suggest that a lot of these players were bad in BW, but that they never seriously played the game... Ace is listed as a success story with his 2-0, 100% win ratio. The fuck? Even if there's more than the stats in terms of their success, all you list is the stats to show how unsuccessful they were, so if one guy goes 2-0 and leaves, he's a success, but the dude who goes 2-3 is failure. They played a handful of games... It doesn't mean much. If you used something other than limited stats it might be conveyed better.
Ok what people dont understand is the process of sc1 broodar which is a flaw in the article. Ok in broodwar, to become a progamer in korea you play in school. After you get good, you move to a clan, some of them have houses, and some are practice partners for big teams. In that session you literally play thousands of games, before playing courage and getting your progamer liscense. After that your a b teamer who plays at least 30- 40 games a day. What you dont understand is that after all those games, that when they got a chance to play recorded games, these are the stats. They cant put up and were considered not good enough to play more. The comment on the startale house was made because in sc1, when you were in a house, you woke up and played 8 hours at the most lax houses, and then after that, in your free time you played even more. Idra was there, he experienced it. The sc2 teams are not practicing nearly as much, you can not tell me that any of them play anywhere in the realm as many games as any of the pro sc1 teams do.
But thats not the point. The reason why we have trouble watching it, is the reason why idra hates playing it. Listen i play sc2, but i also played brood war, and simply put, the pro level games are on another level. The beauty of those games is beyond comparison and the amount of skill is unmatched. These are guys that dont just practice 20 games. These guys play over 40 games a day, and spend 3-4 hours on MICRO MAPS. Thats right they spend hours just to control units perfectly so that in a broodwar game at every moment on every part of the map you get unit control as if it was happening on one part of the map. That doesnt happen in sc2. In sc2 it is still very much single armies clashing, and small micro battles are at a minimum. yes hellions run around, yes mutas run around, but in broodwar, mutas ran around while lings were taking down an expo and a drop was happening. In broodwar reaver micro occured while ur main army was making a push through the middle. In brood war tanks target fired, while vulture group 1 was laying mines in front, group 2 was harasing an expansion, and group 3 was being droped at another expo. It is just on another level.
I like sc2, its fun to watch, but its just not brood war, and the players dont compare. But hopefully some day it will be. But plz plz, stop saying things like, well bw players would not dominate, or even that only flash and jd would destroy. Because in all honesty,
"If stork switched he would never lose a game,"-Idra.
And that goes for about 50 other pros. And even more would simply dominate harder than mc or any other player. Its just how it is.
But again its a great game, and give it some time to grow, maybe with some balance and game mechanic changes it can be the monster that brood war was
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On May 12 2011 16:04 FawkingGoomba wrote:
Since when did a presentation of facts become "BW-elitism"?
The people who are succeeding in SC2 were bad at BW. (For Boxer/Nada/July, it was at the end of their careers). Thus it is likely that the current play in SC2 is subpar, since people who are more skilled have not made the switch.
The competition in SC2 thus far has been a farce.
It becomes elitism when the language is the way it is. The post starts of with an exaggerated claim that smells of bias. The post has good points but they're also filled with hyperbole and overly negative remarks, at least in my eyes.
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Are people really reading into this as some sort of Sc2 vs BW or Sc2 slamfest? Is it not apparent that aside from it being a Flash/JD love letter that it just simply states that future waves of players will be better in Sc2 just like they were in BW and pretty much anything else competitive?
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Excellent read, and i'm glad this was brought up. The only downside though is that it's going to degenerate into another BW vs SC2 war. Can't we all just get along? ;_;
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No idea what I've read. First part of the article makes some obvious statements in as spiteful a manner as possible, second part says that people who are used to practice/play at a significantly higher standard will also manage to do that in SC2 - which most likely, following common logic, also seems pretty obvious (even though, it's been said a billion times, the mechanical needs for SC2 are much, much lower thus repetition isn't -as- key as it is in different games).
Dno. GJ on your blog, I guess.
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Some posts from only sc2 crowd is laughable. He is writing from position of knowing both games well and loving them both, while you are only knowledgeable (and sometimes not even that) of one. Who is better equipped make the call then?
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On May 12 2011 16:02 JoFritzMD wrote:
One thing no one can dispute is that Brood War has a higher skill cap. It was a harder game. That is just an accepted fact. However that doesn't mean that we should just give up on SC2. SC2 is a much more friendly game for newcomers to the scene and for people who don't know much about gaming in general and that is the important point. Even if SC2 crashes and burns in the next 2 years it doesn't matter as long as it makes more people aware of the E-Sport scene.
I personally much prefer watching BW to SC2 but I still watch every SC2 tournament I can just because I want to see E-Sports grow (not to mention I do enjoy watching the games). Everyone just has to remember that no matter which game is "better" this is all for the love of E-sports in general whether it's Halo or WoW or CS or SC.
Sc: Bw was harder, for sure, but only because of the mechanics it demanded. I m hoping though that Sc2 will demand more brains than mechanics, and thus the skill cap will be much higher, and we will be enlightened by something more smart and fancy then a well executed 3 way attack with 6x12 control groups.
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The weakest part to this argument as far as I'm concerned is that if we totally take the entire argument as valid and proven, we should see far more "mediocre" SC1 pros moving to starcraft 2, driven by the economics of it. Afterall, they've hit their skill ceiling in one more stable game, and can move to a more lucrative space where their ability is relatively higher and more rewarded.
In fact we don't particularly see that. The risk involved in moving from SC1 to SC2 is significant precisely because it isn't such a fait accompli that skill in the one will lead to dominance in the other, and anyone enjoying success in BW isn't going to be willing to trade an unknown good for a known one.
It's also somewhat tautological to make the argument that the people who are succeeding in SC2 didn't succeed in SC1. There aren't that many Michael Jordan's in the world, who have so much money in a short playing career that they are willing to try something else while at the top of their game. Of course those that didn't make it will be more likely to try the new game, but that doesn't really engage with the ways they could be better suited for the new game once they enjoy success in it, and it doesn't really address the ones that have tried and failed, as we don't even see them make it through qualifiers, or the ones that are quite young, and really haven't had a chance to have BW pedigree (the next generation). They are more likely to gravitate to SC2, and there's no mechanism in place that would mean that they aren't going to have the same potential ability as a BW player.
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On May 12 2011 15:59 Two_DoWn wrote:Show nested quote +On May 12 2011 15:53 kzn wrote:On May 12 2011 15:52 Two_DoWn wrote:On May 12 2011 15:51 kzn wrote:On May 12 2011 15:49 Two_DoWn wrote:On May 12 2011 15:45 kzn wrote:On May 12 2011 15:43 Xenocide_Knight wrote:On May 12 2011 15:41 densha wrote:On May 12 2011 15:35 kzn wrote:
Players who are "carried" by their mechanics in SCBW cannot expect an identical level of success in SC2. That's a great point, nicely stated. I always hated the fact that through just pure mechanics a player can become quite good at BW. Maybe that's why a player like Nestea isn't top tier in that game but is quite amazing in SC2. I'm far more interested in decision making and execution than I am in how fast you can click on your buildings or order workers to mine. Except sc2 pros have very questionable decision making from what i've seen. Maybe players liek Nestea are amazing at SC2 because they are playing against the bottom of the competitive barrel. This is irrelevant. Nothing in my argument or his post makes any claims as to the quality of players in the SC2 scene currently. As far as I can see, it is undeniably, necessarily true that SC2 places relatively more importance on your decisions than your execution. It is comparably easier to improve decision making than it is to improve mechanics. July was first picked up by a BW pro team not because he was any good at the game, but because he could click really fast. I'm not going to grant that without significant supporting evidence. You ignored the bit at the end where I gave it to you... What you gave me doesn't even support your point. For all you know July is naturally talented mechanically. He is naturally talented mechanically. That was the point of what I said. By all accounts I have heard he still couldnt play BW because he had terrible decision making. So he got better, won a golden mouse, and then has come to sc2 in your own terms "the mecca of decision making" and continued to play well. Sooooo, explain how this example doesnt support my point that decision making is easy to learn? If mechanics were so easy to maximize, why do we continually see sloppy play? Why are multi pronged drops, a hallmark of BW, so lacking in sc2? By your logic non bw pros should be able to improve mechanically at a faster rate than the old BW pros who come in with worse decision making and better mechanics. But this is clearly not the case. Old bw pros dominate. And these are the ones who have comparably sloppier mechanics than the top players in the bw scene today.
Your logic doesn't make any sense.
Your claim: it is comparatively easier to learn strategy than mechanics.
Evidence: July learned strategy.
So what? That doesn't say anything about how much easier it is to learn strategy than it is to learn mechanics. All it says is that July was capable of learning enough strategy to compete. Some people are naturally gifted with fast hands/mechanics, others are gifted with decision making/strategical skills. How do you know someone with the decision making skills couldn't just as easily train their hands to become faster/more accurate?
Note: I'm not disagreeing with you. I'm just saying your evidence doesn't support your argument at all. I, infact, do agree with you. But there is no real evidence to support what both of us suspect.
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If we are to believe Tasteless and Artosis, these ex-Brood War pros were all “sick good” at that game, and imported it over to SC2.
Anyone who watches the GSL on a regular basis knows that this is a blatant lie. Thank you for saying so early in the article. I almost wasted my time with the rest of it.
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OP 100% spot on. As the game progresses though, the difference between any S-code player will be razer thin (kinda like ZvZ now - with hydra, CH, s2, killer, jaedong etc) and we end up watching/supporting another 5 years of rotating mindless meta game shifts and rock paper scissor strategies being being executed : \
Wish this was discussed here more (also by pros)- or even back at blizzard.
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I'll agree somewhat with the OP and say that there are "potentially" much better players than we have seen yet. You still need to show up to the ballpark and play though, and there are a host of factors that will contribute to a lot of parity in SC2 for years to come.
One is that the mechanics are much more easily maxed out in SC2. The technical prowess of macrobots like Best won't work over time in SC2. You constantly see possibly the best macro foreigner, Ret, lose to lesser macro players for a variety of reasons.
DPS of units is higher in SC2. Mistakes cost you...big time. No amout of Jaedong glare will get you out of flying your clumped mutas over thors or upgraded marines. For the same reason, hidden tech, unscouted buildings, and early rushes will always be a powerful factor for legendary players to get sniped. SC2 is more a thinking man's game (at least at this point), and older players will continue to be competitive even when their mechanics fade.
Multi-tasking gets super rewarded in SC2. Many pros have stated that there are actually more things to do in your base than in BW. Although controlling your army is easier for the most part, multi-base and multi-prong harassment seems to win a lot of games if you can manage it.
Much more diverse map making philosophy. The vast majority of BW maps are macro maps. It has yet to be seen in SC2 that they are leaning totally to this vein in map making.
It is very possible that Flash and Jaedong could continue their rivalry as the best two players ever in SC2 once the change comes about. I would however, wait for that moment to arrive to see if it will really happen.
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Whenever I think of work ethic, I generally think of oGs in SC2. Maybe it's from Tester and FD leaving due to the hard work they needed to put in (not sure if I'm remembering that or something else for oGs putting the effort in), but oGs has always had players in good standings and the most players in the GSL. So the idea of SlayerS being able to do well because of regiment makes sense.
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Ignoring the drama building up, I think the article is really good but I think it would have been better served if the comparison wasn't so much focused on results but environment. SC2 players who didn't know the BW scene have to understand what it means to be a practice partner, working yourself up to be drafted into the team, staying a B-teamer and clawing your way into the A-team. THAT for me is the elephant in the room. From what I've read about SC2 "houses", they operate very loosely (with the exception of SlayerS). You have a lot of free time, a lot of free practice. They scrim pretty often in custom but they don't seem to [exactly] do the "ok practice partner, watch how X players plays, imitate him in game against the A-teamer, Y so that he can better prepare for his game".
That's what truly makes BW professional. That's what makes the SC2 pro-scene a farce in terms of competitiveness. You can make all sorts of arguments about the massive talent staying in the BW scene, but it's harder to argue against a systematic way of developing individual skills that BW has honed and perfected. More than anyone, the former BW pros understand this and have stated it time and time again (Idra, MC, etc). Even someone as talented as Nada would win nothing in BW without a lot of practice (unlike in SC2 where he can get by studying in the university alongside making the Ro8 consistently).
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On May 12 2011 15:44 Noelani wrote:Hey, my friend is a top Chess grandmaster. I think if he switched over to SC2, he would dominate within months guys!!!111 
Exactly.
Anyone paying attention to the scene would realize that overall skill level keeps going up. I completely agree that it's not up to par with BW...but isn't that to be expected? All the succesful players stayed there.
But you completely ignore the GROWTH of the current community. People will get better over time. It should not be shocking to you that a newer game (1 year old) is still growing, especially when there are 2 more expansions on the way that may change the game immensely.
In the few months that a good BW player would take to adapt to the current skill level in SC2, current SC2 players can also get better. Could a BW player dominate? Potentially. Could he also fail completely? Absolutely, and anyone trying to argue otherwise should take a step back and rethink his stance.
Now let's talk about effort, because that seems to be a recurring point in your article :
For example, you compared SlayerS' workload to an average BW team. Well, great, isn't that normal? But then you added that they are tearing the scene apart. COMPLETELY WRONG! MMA has been doing relatively well and Ryung as well but they are in no way dominating the scene.
So what if other teams are having success without as much effort? Simply put, they are not motivated enough. And as far as we know, they ARE putting in the 30-40 games a day, just nothing saying it in public. In the end, as the players get better, those that slack will get left behind... just like how it happened for BW or any other competitive event (sports OR games)
And obviously effort plays a large part in it. Those who put more effort into BW got better, got a good salary for their efforts and and thus stayed there. "Lesser" players that didn't practice as much or simply never had success for a variety of reasons jumped ship to SC2 (saying they just weren't skilled is a cop out; you can train your decision making or any other part of your skill set to become better player if you are truly motivated).
But that is not to say they won't change their ways, or that new players from other scenes or new to RTS entirely will not come in later, bring in good work ethics and become top players.
Bigger prize pools, sponsors and SALARIES! -> more training/effort -> better players. It's that simple.
I don't understand the goal of this article. Yes, there are plenty of sub par games in SC2 currently. I agree with that; the skill level isn't up there yet in general (but some players are definitely showing us that they are improving rapidly, and players like IdrA, Sen, etc, have been dominating all their opponents recently to give a few examples; you can expect their growth to continue and as such inspire other players to follow suit).
Did you honestly expect people to pick up SC2 and a few months later be at a skill level comparable to BW? No, of course not. It IS a different game. There are different abilities, timings, mechanics, etc. Everything factors in to make it a new learning curve and especially the boost to early game aggression means that it will take a while still for the skill level to truly develop and allow us to have games consistently be high level. Too many top players are not good enough yet at handling the pressure of early game and when they bring it to the mid game, it's half the time just a pleasantry because 1 player is so far ahead, and IMO that is what is currently holding back the majority of SC2 progamers (and, like I said, that's being fixed by itself over time with people getting better...not by saying "BW progamers are better")
Overall, calling this an elephant in the room is ridiculous. It was clear from the beginning that it would take a long time for the SC2 scene to grow to a respectable skill level. Anyone expecting anything else was simply too optimistic. The answer is not the say that BW progamers should switch because they are better. The answer is that SC2 players will get better over time and reach a skill level where people will stop making such ridiculous arguments.
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Pretty pointless article. Mainly stating obvious facts. Made only to invoke a SC2 vs BW debate.
Well done...
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EPT
