On May 12 2011 15:23 IntoTheWow wrote: I hate making comparisons, but I hope you will let this one slide. In BW when we see a pro make big mistake, we laugh at them. Jaehoon is a running joke in all match ups, sKyHigh can't play a TvZ for his life, etc. In sc2, I don't know if it's the casters, the general consensus or what, but sometimes I see forum posts (maybe they just hold onto something a commentator said) saying "such beautiful micro", when you see mistakes.
This is totally fair, but I feel you're generalizing a bit. I think most blatant micro errors get hammered just as much as they do in BW - it's just that the 'general' ones aren't picked out because they're not as noticeable or significant. By contrast, there's definitely some fantastic micro (marine control vs banelings) that would have been praised in a BW LR thread if it was from an OSL.
I think a lot of micro errors are not even noticed by most people or casters (or at least they don't comment on them). I don't know how many times I've seen Nestea keep his banelings clumped and in the front of an attack vs. seige tanks, and then the person with the tanks is commended for his good tank micro when it was just an auto-attack by the tanks induced by horrible micro from the zerg. Or having zealots 100% not attack because they're stuck behind Stalkers. Mistakes like that in BW will lose you the game almost guaranteed at the highest levels, whereas in SC2 pros make these kinds of mistakes multiple times per game and are still taking home championship titles.
I think the transition will look something like this:
(no jon747 )
I loved the post, but you lost me on the conclusion. I'd rather just see the top tier BW players playing a game that rewards their strengths. Watching July without muta stacking is bad enough, please don't take away fantasy's spider mines. I don't want to see bisu's colossus micro.
On May 12 2011 15:23 IntoTheWow wrote: I hate making comparisons, but I hope you will let this one slide. In BW when we see a pro make big mistake, we laugh at them. Jaehoon is a running joke in all match ups, sKyHigh can't play a TvZ for his life, etc. In sc2, I don't know if it's the casters, the general consensus or what, but sometimes I see forum posts (maybe they just hold onto something a commentator said) saying "such beautiful micro", when you see mistakes.
This is totally fair, but I feel you're generalizing a bit. I think most blatant micro errors get hammered just as much as they do in BW - it's just that the 'general' ones aren't picked out because they're not as noticeable or significant. By contrast, there's definitely some fantastic micro (marine control vs banelings) that would have been praised in a BW LR thread if it was from an OSL.
The thing is, in BW, it's a lot easier to forgive silly mistakes by pros, because you can easily see that they aren't just doing one thing or having to do army control or whatever. If Flash loses a couple marines cause he wasn't careful about lurkers...he's probably also dropping a place and also attacking another at once. You see mistakes being made all the time, but it gets "made up" so to say. In addition, generally these mistakes aren't super super big, and even if they are, the nature of the game allows you to recover. I feel like this isn't the case in SC2, but I guess we'll see.
Unless if it's Jaehoon.
I think that as we get better players, or players get better, we will see less deathbally behavior and more smaller skirmishes. I realize this is a bad analogy, but gold level SC2 players hotkey everything to 1 and 1a into enemies. Yet, this is kinda the same behavior we see in some pro level games. For some reason the idea of army control has been almost completely abandoned by top SC2 players. If someone had the skill and apm required to keep units from balling up, dropping multiple locations, and storming/emp/fungaling they would dominate SC2.
On May 12 2011 15:34 Moonwrath wrote: It's hard to take this article seriously because I need a goddamn chainsaw to hack through all the Brood War bias bullshit. SC2 is a different game, there's literally no evidence that if BW pros switched they would automatically start raping everyone. They might. Hell they probably would, but you can't know for sure unless they actually switch. Even if they did switch and stomp, that doesn't prove anything other than those players like Flash are amazing. But you already knew that.
Actually there is a mountain of evidence that BW pros would start raping everyone. They already are. And these are the B-teamers/barely A-teamers of BW like MVP or the old legends that were even below that level at the end of their careers. Not the "good" BW players. That's part of the article, I'm surprised your reading comprehension didn't get there.
On May 12 2011 15:35 kzn wrote: Players who are "carried" by their mechanics in SCBW cannot expect an identical level of success in SC2.
That's a great point, nicely stated. I always hated the fact that through just pure mechanics a player can become quite good at BW. Maybe that's why a player like Nestea isn't top tier in that game but is quite amazing in SC2. I'm far more interested in decision making and execution than I am in how fast you can click on your buildings or order workers to mine.
Except sc2 pros have very questionable decision making from what i've seen. Maybe players liek Nestea are amazing at SC2 because they are playing against the bottom of the competitive barrel.
On May 12 2011 15:35 kzn wrote: Further, as Idra has implied in some of his comments, when mechanics are less important, rote practice is less important as well. There is little reason to suspect that simply porting SCBW practice routines to SC2 with no modification will be optimal.
Just to address the last part of your post, this is not necessarily true. The point of practice is not just to improve mechanics - it is also to learn how to react to various situations. The faster you recognize a situation, the faster you can make the proper response.
it's also important to point out that MC (the one who is consider the best atm in sc2) has the lowest win % in BW out of the ones listed but yet is better than the BW pros that switched over with more % wins than him.
Why doesn't that translate him being behind those other players if BW status is so accurate?
but what I do agree with the article is that BW pros have better work ethics and practice mindsets, but as the sc2 scene grows.... those will follow as well. Right now sc2 in korea has less tournaments. I remember reading an article about the startale team complaining how they wish there was more leagues and tournaments which they can practice for.
On May 12 2011 15:35 kzn wrote: Players who are "carried" by their mechanics in SCBW cannot expect an identical level of success in SC2.
That's a great point, nicely stated. I always hated the fact that through just pure mechanics a player can become quite good at BW. Maybe that's why a player like Nestea isn't top tier in that game but is quite amazing in SC2. I'm far more interested in decision making and execution than I am in how fast you can click on your buildings or order workers to mine.
Except sc2 pros have very questionable decision making from what i've seen. Maybe players liek Nestea are amazing at SC2 because they are playing against the bottom of the competitive barrel.
This is irrelevant. Nothing in my argument or his post makes any claims as to the quality of players in the SC2 scene currently. As far as I can see, it is undeniably, necessarily true that SC2 places relatively more importance on your decisions than your execution.
The problem isn't the analysis, it's the conclusion.
There are better players in BW, true.
The mindset in the BW Korean scene produces better players, true.
If the players and mindset of the Korean BW scene moved into SC2 then they would make the current SC2 matches seem outright silly, true.
The qualitative value of present state objects are inherently dependent on the possibility of future improvement? False.
The correct conclusion is this: With the current global popularity of SC2, there is a high chance that more and more higher tiered BW player will make the switch whether for fame (global audience) or fortune (sub-Jaedong level skill preventing them from getting *too* many televised/qualifier gigs). As the number of BW players make the switch increases, so will the level of play in SC2. This forces a global change in mindset when it comes to game preparations. (It would suck if Koreans won MLG every year, for example)
When the talent of players in the future is not better than the talent of those in the present--that simply means the game hasn't evolved. People who start later will have a much more solid foundation to build their skill upon. In the first GSL Rainbow looked like a damn octopus spreading his medivac tendrils up everyone's orifice like a damn swarm of slimy probing bees. When MarineKingPrime played against Kyrix on Shakuras the world exploded with the idea of marine splits. With each GSL we find something new, something progressive to the game's development. As each of these things get built one atop the other, the game will slowly but surely become better. Yes, when BW players make the switch someday the skill ceiling will be raised. That's a good thing. Because when they perform their perfect marine splits--they will still reference MarineKing. When they perfect their 2base Baneling timings--they will still call it the "Kyrix Style." These old SC2 games will be the same building blocks they will use to construct their dynasties.
So yes, I do believe that there is an Elephant in the room. That Elephant is the slow decline of BW. That Elephant is the steadily rising global support of SC2 that offers the non-Jaedongs and the non-Flashes a chance at glory. It's the Elephant that has on it's back the ghosts of ESports Future carrying with him the truth--that in the future, when the kids who would have been the new Flash or the new Jaedong has grown up, those kids will not be looking at only BW, they'll be looking and dreaming of SC2 as well.
Nicely written , good read but completely disagree. To me this thread feels like having someone a couple of generations older than me saying "when i was your age ..." . I know you re not trying to do that , but you are feeding the BW elitism on this forum when it already has enough (some justified I have to say).
SC2 is not BW. It is like BW , thats very different. You put down some stats and arguments about your oppinion which is why this article is very enjoyable to read but you miss some - in my opinion - very important facts. You mention the "best players" of SC2 being B-teamers with terrible records in BW therefore BW S-players would crush them should they move to SC2. By that logic the few A-players that have transfered in SC2 shouldnt be already demolishing the scene? Well , they arent. BW skips you a huge learning curve when going into SC2 but that doesnt automatically make you a god , you still have to adapt and learn new stuff like everyone else. Having said that , you have to also remember things change. The same way boxer was dethroned after some years in BW scene , Flash and Jaedong could be dethroned (and will be as time comes) in the coming years in BW scene. They will always be legends , like Boxer still is , but just not that Godlike anymore . Why cant the same thing happen in SC2 (with them or other players) , and how can you be so sure it wont? How can you be so sure they will dominate the scene? Its all assumption. You cant take facts , such as statistical numbers , to back up a "what if" , especially when we re talking about a different game. Plus , as we all see the game is new , players are still incosistent because new stuff come out all the time , yet we see many people staying up there at the top of the game from the start such as MC, MvP etc.
You say that SC2 pro scene is a farse and its as enjoyable as watching high school football. Comparing e-sports with real sports is wrong , but just for that analogy , Ill just have to say it is far from correct. High school football and pro football are the same sport. They have the same rules and they are played the same way. To find a more correct analogy , its like saying football (or soccer for americans) has the biggest stars with the most rewarding contracts compared to futsal (indoor football or however its called ) which has less known players and way less money . Does that mean any player coming from football would dominate futsal? How can you even make that comparison without seeing them play it? I mean they will definately be good but will they dominate ? The only reason football pays out more than futsal , or to come back to my point , BW pays more than SC2 is that its way more popular (at least in Korea). So until those BW A-teamers and legends decide to switch to SC2 and show us that domination you re guessing they will have , we really have no way predicting if they will be kicking everyones ass or just being good at it (but not the best)
On May 12 2011 15:36 Mailing wrote: My guess is what Flash would have a LOWER average win rate than most people suspect he would in SC2. There are far more build order loses, ways to lose because of missing a scout, etc.
Even if his win rate in every matchup was 85%, it still means it's easily possible for someone like him to get knocked out in the first round of major tourneys due to luck.
And that's why sc2 is not a very good competitive game..
Thank god an article like this finally came out. If TL wants to be a professional e-sport covering website, it should be 90% about the ONLY professional e-sport. BW.
I completely agree with this.
The fact is, sc2 is to easy to take games off better players. Hell, I've been able to match my macro and micro in sc2 to players who should be so much better than me. and i don't even use hotkeys.
in bw I am not able to compete because in order to be a good player, I have to practice my ass off to get better, and maybe if i practice 15 hours a day. I may be able to get a progamer license in about 10 years.
in sc2, putting the same amount of time in would win me a GSL, cause I could easily take games off better players, and win due to the amount of luck involved.
On May 12 2011 15:03 JIJIyO wrote: Good shit Intrigue and Hot_Bid. Nice article.
And to people saying SC2 is just one year old, and SC had 10 years to develop, you have to consider the fact on HOW the game grew. The first year of pro SC people were living off cup noodles, sleeping on the floor, used their own winnings just to keep the team alive, etc to play this game. There was no system in place for pro SC when it first came out, and because of this the games were obviously worse compared to the games now. Despite being a different game, SC2 had the basis of SC to build on with team houses, training, etc. Please consider this before using those arguments.
This isn't valid. Let's look at modern-day BW - how good are most players after less than a year in a training house? Most aren't even seeing televised games. Flash was still all-ining people TSL_Rain style.
The game being new also means players have had less time to develop the best ways to play it.
Flash won a title within one year of going pro. Did you read the article? It said this.
I can't keep reading the misinformation in some of these comments... I'm going to burst.
Burst into laughter, or rage, I don't know yet.
Flash won his OSL title on 150308. His first televised game was 150307, precisely one year earlier - and he most certainly was on a team before that, and practicing as such. This is by TLPD and memory, so I (or it) might be a bit off.
The case of Flash is a bit weird. Wasn't he still going to high school after he got televised matches? I think it's better to just say that Flash was not a great or good or mediocre player during his first year with BW, and right now most people are approaching a year with SC2.
flash is just one of them once-in-an-ESPORTS-generation prodigies.
i dont buy the zero incentive to switch over for everyone but the top 10 progamers.
if your theory is correct, they could make hundreds of thousands of dollars in tourney money by simply crushing face in gsl, not even considering easier tourneys like nasl and dreamhack and iem.
i mean how much could somone like Snow really make a year ?
On May 12 2011 15:23 IntoTheWow wrote: I hate making comparisons, but I hope you will let this one slide. In BW when we see a pro make big mistake, we laugh at them. Jaehoon is a running joke in all match ups, sKyHigh can't play a TvZ for his life, etc. In sc2, I don't know if it's the casters, the general consensus or what, but sometimes I see forum posts (maybe they just hold onto something a commentator said) saying "such beautiful micro", when you see mistakes.
This is totally fair, but I feel you're generalizing a bit. I think most blatant micro errors get hammered just as much as they do in BW - it's just that the 'general' ones aren't picked out because they're not as noticeable or significant. By contrast, there's definitely some fantastic micro (marine control vs banelings) that would have been praised in a BW LR thread if it was from an OSL.
I think a lot of micro errors are not even noticed by most people or casters (or at least they don't comment on them). I don't know how many times I've seen Nestea keep his banelings clumped and in the front of an attack vs. seige tanks, and then the person with the tanks is commended for his good tank micro when it was just an auto-attack by the tanks induced by horrible micro from the zerg. Or having zealots 100% not attack because they're stuck behind Stalkers. Mistakes like that in BW will lose you the game almost guaranteed at the highest levels, whereas in SC2 pros make these kinds of mistakes multiple times per game and are still taking home championship titles.
Agreed, a lot of this is due to SC2 needing less unit management due to hotkeys, so units aren't as focused on, plus how much they all clump up. But I think you're exaggerating on how commonplace they are at the high levels of championship play.
In the context of the thread, I'm hesitant to use this as a point, though. Broodwar pros would not (or rarely at least, I'm looking at you jaehoon) make massive blunders like this in theory, but in SC2 it happens - so there's no evidence that any other BW pro would be immune to it.
On May 12 2011 15:35 kzn wrote: Further, as Idra has implied in some of his comments, when mechanics are less important, rote practice is less important as well. There is little reason to suspect that simply porting SCBW practice routines to SC2 with no modification will be optimal.
Just to address the last part of your post, this is not necessarily true. The point of practice is not just to improve mechanics - it is also to learn how to react to various situations. The faster you recognize a situation, the faster you can make the proper response.
I wouldn't dream of disagreeing. But imagine, for example, that a players decision making skill improved faster if you made him look at flash cards of units and say the counter unit for 4 hours a day (this is ridiculous, I know, but its irrelevant what the method is). Then, perhaps, 4 hours of flash cards and the rest of time practicing games would be optimal.
I don't think its really going to turn out to be the case that its optimal to spend less time working on SC2 than it is for SCBW, but I think its very likely that the content of the practice routines will differ somewhat.
EPT
)
) which has less known players and way less money . Does that mean any player coming from football would dominate futsal? How can you even make that comparison without seeing them play it? I mean they will definately be good but will they dominate ? The only reason football pays out more than futsal , or to come back to my point , BW pays more than SC2 is that its way more popular (at least in Korea). So until those BW A-teamers and legends decide to switch to SC2 and show us that domination you re guessing they will have , we really have no way predicting if they will be kicking everyones ass or just being good at it (but not the best)
