EPTThe Elephant in the Room - Page 18
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kNightLite
United States408 Posts
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JIJIyO
Canada1957 Posts
On May 12 2011 15:06 Anzekay wrote: While this is true, there is still game-specific developement that has to occur (in regards to development of play, builds, stratergies and the like), not to mention player mentality for those who crossed over to SC2 after a lull in their BW career, or those who are fresh to the scene with SC2 in the first place. To say that SC2 is going to start at the same level of development, across all areas where development is important, is just silly. On May 12 2011 15:06 Dfgj wrote: This isn't valid. Let's look at modern-day BW - how good are most players after less than a year in a training house? Most aren't even seeing televised games. Flash was still all-ining people TSL_Rain style. The game being new also means players have had less time to develop the best ways to play it. My bad forgot to include the game part lol. SC2 has the basis of macro and micro. Yes, it might sound stupid, but when SC started, there was no concept of "proper" macro and micro. Sure there was some, but it wasn't the most efficient and effective way. Timings were another thing that developed within the game. No, not timing pushes and such, but timings of when to make units, buildings, etc. An example being saving 3 larva on each hatchery and saving 900/900 gold/gas to get 9 mutas out at the same time. SC2 has the knowledge of the proper way to micro and macro, as well as the knowledge of proper timings. It's late and I don't usually engage myself in SC/2 arguments, so my points might not even be comprehensible, but they make sense to me lol. My bad about that. I'm probably going to stop posting about this shit since I see no point in these things. People will like SC and people will like SC2, and some will even like both. No point trying to change peoples' opinions. Really a waste of time for me. Say I'm just taking the easy way out. Whatever. | ||
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Mailing
United States3087 Posts
Even if his win rate in every matchup was 85%, it still means it's easily possible for someone like him to get knocked out in the first round of major tourneys due to luck. | ||
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Mordiford
4448 Posts
On May 12 2011 15:13 Two_DoWn wrote: Only this would be like NFL players going back to college football. For some reason people continually deny this fact: SC2 is not a different game from BW. The mechanics are the same. The concepts are the same. Only everything in SC2 is easier. Are there new units and strategies? Sure. But it isnt as though knowing when to expand and when to attack is somehow lost in translation. But it is a different game. It wouldn't be like going from NFL to college football. It would be more akin to going from the NFL to a Rugby League. Alright, so the NFL is big in the US, Rugby, not as much. Now, Rugby starts growing and some mediocre NFL players start playing Rugby and doing fairly well. Now, this doesn't mean that there aren't people going directly into Rugby who have talent, there are still people who could probably make it in the NFL, but choose Rugby because it's new and exciting and there's less competition. After a while, it turns out that the Rugby guys are good enough that only the top NFL players would really be able to compete at a high level in Rugby. As time goes on, and even now, we're getting our own stand-outs in SC2. There's no reason that the next 'Flash' can't go directly into SC2. Obviously the very top players of BW would move over to SC2 and do well, just like the top or decent players from other RTSs have come over and done well. This shouldn't take away from the potential players that develop within the game as it is now. | ||
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emecee
United States222 Posts
this is incredibly BW biased bullshit written by a BW elitist, even if there is evidence saying if BW pros switched over they would dominate no one can know for sure thats true, and for the author to say the potential for that to happen undermines the competition in SC2 is seriously just sad. User was temp banned for this post. | ||
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Dfgj
Singapore5922 Posts
On May 12 2011 15:33 IntoTheWow wrote: Then I must be really really unlucky, because whenever I watch I see praise for stuff that looks either "normal" or actually has mistakes (I see this with banshee control a lot for example). It's hard to not generalize without going through a shit ton of vods and picking case by case, so I apologize for that, but I hope people still see my point. I don't think people should be focusing so much on that "if Flash/JD switched" line so much, but actually on the other parts are mentioned (which have more to be dicussed, and actually mean something to the future of sc2). Got to take into account who is posting in LR threads - most BW followers were players of some level (ie: could win a game on iCCup), while SC2 players are far more general. And everyone laughs when BitByBit fails hard. As you bring up, the parts about practice are very relevant, but I think we need more time to see if it makes a significant distinction between players (those that practice in more 'bw style', those that don't to the same degree, etc). I just wish those aspects weren't encased in what reads like an incitement to BW vs SC2 all day long. | ||
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Artok
Netherlands2219 Posts
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Firkraag8
Sweden1006 Posts
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Cataphract
United States69 Posts
Nestea could have been 0-900 in BW, I wouldn't care. He is good at SC2. Whether or not people think that is because it is an easier game, a worse game, or just a different game. He is good now. Was the Nestea vs SC series amazing? Absolutely. Does the fact that Nestea wasn't a good BW player make me think, "GEE this is horrible."? No, no it does not. It just makes me think, "Thank god he is playing SC2 now." | ||
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Zamiel
United States211 Posts
Intrigue, one thing that you flirted with but didn't really address is that: 1) The skill ceiling in SC2 is lower than BW. 2) SC2 is more volatile than BW in terms of weaker gamers being able to take games off of stronger gamers. So yes, the overarching theme of the article is true in the fact that Flash/JD/Bisu are three times the gamers that MVP/Nestea/MC are. However, due to these 2 points it will be a lot harder for ex BW S-class to gain complete dominance over the scene. Agree? There was a lot of contestation between TL netizens during the time of SC2 beta as to whether SC2 was going to turn out to be as good of an E-sport as SC1. That's what I originally had figured that this final edit was going to address, but it kind of skirted around that subject. This is definitely an issue that a future final edit should address. Unfortunately, the game has been out for a while now and I think that the answer is no, which sucks because both I and most of the people here at TeamLiquid love SC2. Personally, I'm really hoping that Heart of the Swarm and the Protoss expansion change these 2 points for the better. For e-sports! | ||
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rysecake
United States2632 Posts
On May 12 2011 15:38 Artok wrote: I'm sad how he always mentioned Flash and jd, but rarely mentioned bisu ;( Bisu's too sexy to be mentioned. | ||
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quentel
349 Posts
Hopefully we do see some BW pros transition soon, that would be a delight to see. | ||
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blAke139
Switzerland199 Posts
Of course, some points make sense. But I still think all you say is theory. Because as you can see, NaDa, BoxeR, July, Grubby, Moon and all those "outliers" don't get the results we would expect. It's still a different game. I HOPE that JD and Flash switch sometime, but I still don't see them DOMINATE the whole scene until the game didn't reach it's "it's done and balanced"-state (I'm not saying SC2 is imbalanced at all, I'm just saying that it's a young game and it has to develop) But still: SC2 is growing much more in the international scene, than BW ever was, period. | ||
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I)etox
1240 Posts
On May 12 2011 15:36 Mailing wrote: My guess is what Flash would have a LOWER average win rate than most people suspect he would in SC2. There are far more build order loses, ways to lose because of missing a scout, etc. Even if his win rate in every matchup was 85%, it still means it's easily possible for someone like him to get knocked out in the first round of major tourneys due to luck. you don't know flash. also even if what you're saying is true, that a player of flash's calibre would still routinely lose to BO loses speaks volumes about sc2's gameplay. The article isn't trying to prove the point that bw pros would own sc2 pros (everyone knows this), it's trying to bring to our attention the need for sc2 players to push themselves further. | ||
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dredd276
United States80 Posts
On May 12 2011 15:32 I)etox wrote: woah there buddy, wc3 and sc2 are entirely different beasts. wc3 heroes/items/xp system makes it really, really unique. sc2/bw are much more similar. Maybe that's right, but then you need some sort of story about how SC2 is much more similar to BW than WC3 which I'm not sure is right (at least from a mechanical perspective.) Might be true though. Still, to the extent that WC3 is similar, that the mega-talents from there haven't performed better seems like evidence against OP's point. | ||
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JIJIyO
Canada1957 Posts
On May 12 2011 15:38 Artok wrote: I'm sad how he always mentioned Flash and jd, but rarely mentioned bisu ;( LOL. Fucking great first post. Didn't even notice it until you pointed it out haha. Maybe Bisu will get mentioned more when he finally wins an OSL ;D | ||
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Xenocide_Knight
Korea (South)2625 Posts
On May 12 2011 15:36 Mailing wrote: My guess is what Flash would have a LOWER average win rate than most people suspect he would in SC2. There are far more build order loses, ways to lose because of missing a scout, etc. Even if his win rate in every matchup was 85%, it still means it's easily possible for someone like him to get knocked out in the first round of major tourneys due to luck. And that's why sc2 is not a very good competitive game.. Thank god an article like this finally came out. If TL wants to be a professional e-sport covering website, it should be 90% about the ONLY professional e-sport. BW. User was temp banned for this post. | ||
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Nois
Germany14 Posts
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darmousseh
United States3437 Posts
On May 12 2011 15:34 flowSthead wrote: You have no idea what you are talking about. Let's forget for a moment that the only active player on the field of an American Football team uses his foot, and that he uses it in a way which is a very small part of being a Soccer player. Let's forget about that and the fact that all of these players would lack the necessary foot dexterity to play Soccer. The biggest reason why all of these American Football players would fail at Soccer is because their focus in training has never been endurance running, but sprinting. Football has on average 11 minutes of playtime. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704281204575002852055561406.html Soccer is a minimum of 90 minutes. Sprinting is important in Soccer as well, but endurance is much more important seeing as you can't sub out all of the players, you have a max of 3 subs per game, so the majority of your players are going to be running for the full 90 minutes. It is not comparable at all, which is why your analogy is terrible. I don't really want to comment on the BroodWar and SC2 situation since frankly I am not that familiar with BroodWar. I can find points of argument on either sides, but it really doesn't matter because of my lack of BroodWar knowledge. But I had to comment on your analogy because it is so awful, it actually makes me a little angry that you would write something so ill informed. Also, not all of the best athletes go to play American Football. That is also ill informed. It takes a different type of skill to play Football than it does to play Basketball, and that it does to play Tennis. All of these different pro sports players have talent, but the reasons they chose their sports could be because they like them, or their talent is more suited to what is desired in that sport, or maybe that was the thing that they played when they were kids. You have literally 0 basis for deciding that all of the best athletes in the U.S. play American Football. It would be literally impossible to find out who all of the best athletes in the U.S. are. Analogies have to have internal logic to be useful. That was way too deep of an analysis. Skill in football(american) and skill in soccer do transfer over, but it would take years to learn the new sport compared to months for sc2. Read that book I reccomended it talks about this analogy exactly. So yes, not EVERY single great athlete plays football, but football draws many of the best players because of it's high prestige and the insane salaries. Being an offensive lineman pays more than being 1 of 5 average guys on an nba team. Almost all great athletes were good at more than one sport. Michael Jordan was great at baseball. Bo Jackson played like 3 sports professionally. The difference is that at the high school level, the best athletes put their time an effort into football more than any other sport. The sports require different mechanical skills (kicking a ball as opposed to tackling or carrying a football), but the mechanics such as running, using your body, reacting, predicting, endurance, etc all carry over to all sports. (Just like how wc3 players and cs players can be good at sc2). While learning a new esport might take less effort than learning a new physical sport, the analogy works and like I said, if you don't believe me read that book, it has statistical proof of what I'm saying. | ||
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densha
United States797 Posts
On May 12 2011 15:35 kzn wrote: Players who are "carried" by their mechanics in SCBW cannot expect an identical level of success in SC2. That's a great point, nicely stated. I always hated the fact that through just pure mechanics a player can become quite good at BW. Maybe that's why a player like Nestea isn't top tier in that game but is quite amazing in SC2. I'm far more interested in decision making and execution than I am in how fast you can click on your buildings or order workers to mine. | ||
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