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On May 12 2011 15:20 garbanzo wrote:
Interesting article. It's nice to have another TLFE, haven't had one of those in a while. I'm curious why SC2 proteams don't have salaries like in BW. Is it because the game is so young that they can't get enough sponsors? I feel like having a salary would be a good incentive for players to work harder and teams would be in a better position to have a regimented schedule for their players.
I think it would be exciting to see what the scene would be like a year from now. I think it definitely is showing promise, but it's just so volatile right now to be an interesting competition.
Koreans dont play SC2. They play BW. Why bother shifting your marketing dollars to a game people dont actually play, especially when you have an entrenched pro scene you can pour money into?
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Nice Final Edit  . I hope for less arguments from both sides. SC2 fans make sense when they say that SC2 have potential and BW fans are right when they say that BW is awesome. Peace.
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The fact that trash like this gets spotlighted astounds me.
You should rewrite your entire "Whats the point" paragraph with just "To show how big of a brood-war elitist I am".
Was just about everything you said true? Yes. Was there any point to this article other than to say how much better you think BW players are than SC2 players? No. I'm not one of those people who say "oh just wait sc2 will get better, brood war had 10 years to get balanced and become what it is today." It didn't take BW 10 years to become a great game, but it DID take BW 10 years to get the stars it has. Obviously most of the guys who are "stars" of SC2 right now won't be stars down the line.... its the first year of the game, better people will come along whether theyre from BW or homegrown in SC2.
So you think that there are a bunch of guys in BW who will tear up the scene when they get here? Nobody disagrees with you, but why do you run around saying stupid shit like you can't watch the games because you know there are better players out there. When i first saw Lebron play in highschool i was pretty sure he was going to end up being the best player in NBA history... but guess what, I didn't run around voicing my displeasure at people watching the NBA... "HOW CAN YOU WATCH KOBE PLAY WHEN THERE IS GOING TO BE SOMEONE IN 5 YEARS SO MUCH BETTER THAN HIM!"
This is such a dumb article, and its even dumber when people, mods nonetheless, say "Let's not turn this into BW vs SC2" when the title of this thread should be changed to "Why BW and its pros are better than SC2 and its players"
User was temp banned for this post.
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is awesome32277 Posts
On May 12 2011 14:33 Mordiford wrote:
You list a lot of players as having unsuccessful Brood War careers, but particularly from the stats you posted, it would appear to me that they didn't really have careers to begin with...
You list Ace as having had an above average career in BW then post a statistic that states he only played 2 games.
A lot of the other people you list only played a handful of games as well, their careers never took of it would seem and they switched to SC2 because it would be easier to break into then trying to break into SC1.
Just because they have little televised games, doesn't mean they didn't have a career to start with. Lots of players in BW started as online practice partners. Meaning they didn't benefit much from the team, but only for connections and for playing with big names, sort of like working for free to get your name out. Then, they could be B teamers, then from there, A teamers, and even there, A teamers don't always have the chance to play. Team have in house tournaments, and sometimes, depending on it, coaches decide who goes out, and who doesn't.
Guess how well people with little games did in those tournament against the other A or S class players? It's not like they arrived at the T1 house one day and said: "I'm gonna play BW!", lost 2 games on tv and went home to start sc. Some of them dedicated a long period of their life to BW (like NesTea/ZergBong).
The players who move over from SC1 will already have a reputation coming in, but as we've seen, former top pros aren't completely crushing the scene but are doing well, the skills clearly carry over as seen in Nada and July.
I'm not sure what I was missing for this post though, that Jaedong and Flash would crush people if they came to SC2? Yeah, pretty much... That a lot of top skill is still tied up in SC1? Yeah, that's where the money is in Korea.
Would these players just come in and shit on everyone? No...
I think lots of people are reading the article trying to find SC2 vs BW arguments. From what I got out of it, lots has to do with work ethic. BW and SC2 seem to have different systems in terms of practicing, with the exception being SlayerS from the interviews I have read.
When people say they see pros make mistake, we are not talking about not seeing multipronged drops while making hellion attacks somewhere else. Strategy, and maneuvers come with the game evolving, we all get that. We are talking about things that are already figured out, and seeing pros making mistakes on those.
I hate making comparisons, but I hope you will let this one slide. In BW when we see a pro make big mistake, we laugh at them. Jaehoon is a running joke in all match ups, sKyHigh can't play a TvZ for his life, etc. In sc2, I don't know if it's the casters, the general consensus or what, but sometimes I see forum posts (maybe they just hold onto something a commentator said) saying "such beautiful micro", when you see mistakes.
Of course this isn't always the deal, I have seen MC micro making my jaw drop lots of times. What I'm saying is the average Code/Class A player doesn't seem so refined for someone who makes a living out of this (so I guess playing/practicing at least 8 hours a day). This has nothing to do with the game being new. Maybe it has to do with constant patching a bit, but I think a lot of it has to do with a lack of organization within the teams.
It would be nice to get the word from FA or Huk, someone who trained with oGs, to get the word of how much it works like this for each player there.
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On May 12 2011 15:21 mitthrawn wrote:
The writer of this article must be a huge bitter SC:BW vet. :D
I'm thinking the same thing.
I'll pass my judgement if/when Flash, Jaedong etc. ever make the switch.
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This is the worst article title I've ever seen. An "elephant in the room" is something no one is talking about.
At times it feels like this is the only topic of discussion on this forum.
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As someone else mentioned, I thought that this article was going to be about SC2 not taking off in Korea. The Elephant in the room is definitely part of the reason why some Korean fans aren't watching. When you see sub par broodwar players dominating in Starcraft 2, it makes Starcraft 2 feel less legitimate to those people.
Also, does this mean that the games aren't...
**puts on sunglasses**
So high level?
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Elephants in the room
SC2 pros just aren't that good. Every SC2 game I've watched, I've seen silly mistakes that the best of BW would rarely do. The so-called "best players" cloak that banshee way before they need to. Not noticing the shimmer of cloaked units approaching your base. Letting that group of marines just run into tank fire. Tanks being sieged all at the same time instead of individually sieged to optimize positions. Very rarely are there multiple engagements with each engagement micro'd. Bad engagement decisions. Units not being spread properly. Etc.
SCBW top pros don't switch because they're guaranteed a salary, whereas they would take a high risk in switching to SC2. Few BW pros are likely to make more money playing SC2, and those who would have to overcome the barrier of making a career altering decision. (This is an issue even for players who make little to no money in BW.)
BW skill is clearly transferable to SC2. There's a reason why ex-BW pros are at the top. I love Nada and July, but if you can still do that well in SC2 after having virtually faded from the BW pro scene due to a decline in skill.... well... it can't be that hard. Idra similarly was a B teamer, and look at the success he has in SC2.
SC2 just isn't that popular in Korea. As a result, it's unlikely to attract that much money, and without that money, BW pros don't have that essential incentive to switch.
SC2 pros don't cross-dress. 'Nuff said.
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Absolutely fantastic read. Kept me really, really interested. Its a shame I never bothered with multiplayer brood war really.
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SC2 is not even ready; it's in a process of development. So of course the current competitive scene, even though well paid, is a farce. The elephant here was the assumption that nobody realizes it.
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is awesome32277 Posts
On May 12 2011 14:51 sc14s wrote:Show nested quote +On May 12 2011 14:35 Flowjo wrote:On May 12 2011 14:32 sc14s wrote:On May 12 2011 13:52 Zrana wrote:
You didn't mention NaDa or July as much as you should have. Both amazing at sc1 (capable of beating flash/JD at times iirc but not rocking SC2 as hard as you say they should)
Different game, different skills. Mechanics mean slightly less, strategy slightly more. Sure some is transferable, but this really seems like more of the same tired old BW was better whine.
You say that there are hundreds of players who could come in and dominate SC2 at any moment. Well why haven't they? There's nothing to stop them taking the GSL, TSL and NASL prize pools. More than enough incentive.
The answer is that SC2 is still being figured out, and it takes a different sort of player to excel at a young game than a game where the rules have already been written.
Also you imply that SC2 is invalid as a sport until we have some godllike figure like Flash. Was football invalid before Beckham, Formula 1 before Schumacher?
No, they were still fun to watch. (well i dont like football but lots do) ^ what he said not what he said.....2010 Nada or July would not be "capable of beating flash/JD". This entire post actually has alot of misinformation. actually, yes what he said.. i can have my own opinion <.< and on top of that he isnt stating misinformation just an opinion.. which he can also have.. you know the difference right? all he was saying is SC2 is enjoyable REGARDLESS of that fact that the "best" havent swapped yet (if they will ever).
Football not having a figure before Beckham is a wrong fact, not an opinion.
Same with the Flash/JD vs NaDa/July thing.
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On May 12 2011 15:25 figq wrote:
SC2 is not even ready; it's in a process of development. So of course the current competitive scene, even though well paid, is a farce. The elephant here was the assumption that nobody realizes it.
I beg to differ. Take a look around this thread. Lotta people in here can't see that darn elephant 
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Even if everything you say is right, let me live in my naive world where MC and Nestea are amazingly good, okay?
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On May 12 2011 15:10 HawaiianPig wrote:Show nested quote +On May 12 2011 15:06 Dfgj wrote:On May 12 2011 15:03 JIJIyO wrote:
Good shit Intrigue and Hot_Bid. Nice article.
And to people saying SC2 is just one year old, and SC had 10 years to develop, you have to consider the fact on HOW the game grew. The first year of pro SC people were living off cup noodles, sleeping on the floor, used their own winnings just to keep the team alive, etc to play this game. There was no system in place for pro SC when it first came out, and because of this the games were obviously worse compared to the games now. Despite being a different game, SC2 had the basis of SC to build on with team houses, training, etc. Please consider this before using those arguments. This isn't valid. Let's look at modern-day BW - how good are most players after less than a year in a training house? Most aren't even seeing televised games. Flash was still all-ining people TSL_Rain style. The game being new also means players have had less time to develop the best ways to play it. Flash won a title within one year of going pro. Did you read the article? It said this.I can't keep reading the misinformation in some of these comments... I'm going to burst. Burst into laughter, or rage, I don't know yet.
Irony.
ANYWAY,
I think the "SC2 is still young" argument is entirely valid. First, recognize that even though BW had 10 years, it was nowhere near as established in its early life (i.e. barely able to feed themselves) in comparison to later on (well-known teams with relatively much better living conditions). Recognizing this, it would be stupid to say that SC2 will require approximately 10 years as well. It's going to take SC2 much longer than a year to reach the BW quality of players, but this improvement is going to happen substantially faster than it did in BW because BW laid the groundwork on how to improve at an RTS in the most optimal way.
I suppose being cynical about the SC2 scene is justified since we don't have very many high-class BW players switching over yet, but we watch and enjoy BW/SC2 recognizing that these players are ahead of the curve and are just so much better than EVERYONE ELSE. Bonjwas come and go. They are bonjwas because they are the best during their TIME PERIOD. Put Flash up against bonjwas of the past and it would be pretty onesided. So with this in mind, I don't see the point of being so cynical about the SC2 scene. You (the OP and others sharing this viewpoint) need to recognize and appreciate that we are watching games played by people that are ahead of the curve and MUCH BETTER than everyone else right now. The reality is that these guys are in fact better than Flash/Jaedong at SC2, >>RIGHT NOW<<. And these guys will continue to be the best in this era, but as the scene grows, new faces will emerge. They may be entirely new (14yr old prodigies), or they can be the famous faces we have come to love in BW.
The point is, I think it is foolish to disregard the SC2 scene because you believe there are better players out there but we just don't see them yet. It would be equivalent to refusing to appreciate Boxer's games because "he's not really the best, BW won't be worth watching until Flash and Jaedong come around, *grumble*"
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On May 12 2011 15:23 IntoTheWow wrote:
I hate making comparisons, but I hope you will let this one slide. In BW when we see a pro make big mistake, we laugh at them. Jaehoon is a running joke in all match ups, sKyHigh can't play a TvZ for his life, etc. In sc2, I don't know if it's the casters, the general consensus or what, but sometimes I see forum posts (maybe they just hold onto something a commentator said) saying "such beautiful micro", when you see mistakes.
This is totally fair, but I feel you're generalizing a bit. I think most blatant micro errors get hammered just as much as they do in BW - it's just that the 'general' ones aren't picked out because they're not as noticeable or significant. By contrast, there's definitely some fantastic micro (marine control vs banelings) that would have been praised in a BW LR thread if it was from an OSL.
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OP's theory would predict that the crazy-good "outliers" in WC3 would dominate BW too. Grubby, Moon, Lyn? Mixed results...
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FANTASTIC read! I'd have to say after not playing for a few months (haven't even opened SC2 to patch it since August 20th, says Bnet), I can see the vods and matches are still as exciting as EVER. Now that I'm watching SC again, I honestly can't WAIT till the Flash and JD make their way to this scene...it'll be sad to never see their amazing games BW style anymore, but I would love to see just HOW far ABOVE they will be on everyone else
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On May 12 2011 15:27 Suryp wrote:Show nested quote +On May 12 2011 15:14 Crunchums wrote:
Your argument contains a premise that you acknowledge only indirectly - that SC2 is a game where practicing intensely in the manner that BW pros is singularly important to success. A single anecdote potentially supporting this point is not sufficient.
But even if you were completely right that SC2 players aren't training as hard as they could be training and that this makes the competition less fierce, the fact that Flash and Jaedong haven't switched over doesn't make the competition a farce.
To me, this article is just fueling SC2 fans' hatred and misunderstanding of Brood War fans. As someone who's never played Brood War I can attest to this point. If this article was only to say "watch out a shitstorm of better players are coming" then great, let them come. Everything it states beyond that feels like Brood War fanboyism and SC2 hate. Even if everything you say is right, let me live in my naive world where MC and Nestea are amazingly good, okay?
The point of the article is to get you out of your naive little world.
Hate to break it to you, but he is right.
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Just because Jaedong, Flash, and Bisu are awesome, it doesn't take away from the SC2 scene at all IMO.
You might want to think that any of those three could waltz into the SC2 pro scene and immediately dominate, and maybe they could, but they're far more comfortable in a game that is far more mapped out and predictable.
I think it's exciting that the SC2 pros we have now are the pioneers that we'll all look back to in 5 years and see where the seeds of major playstyles and strategies began. There are other 15 year old prodigies right now, in their rooms, loving SC2 that will begin the next generation of great players.
We don't need to, nor should we want to look to Brood War for our great players. Our great players will come from those who grow up on SC2 and they will initially look to the players of today who are doing the leg-work of setting down the foundation of how SC2 is played. That groundwork is incredibly important and should not be scoffed at because BW is played at a higher level.
Whoever thinks SC2 is a joke just shouldn't watch the games. I want to be part of it from the beginning, though, so when the prodigies show up in five years I can talk with knowledge and passion about the development of the game and where the groundwork was lain.
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I thought TL discouraged the BW vs SC2 stuff, but with this article being published I can only see the opposite :/
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EPT
