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Canada5155 Posts
On May 12 2011 15:04 fantomex wrote:
Your argument is schizophrenic.
Are you saying the Kobe's and Jordan's are still playing BW? Or are you saying every starter in the NBA is still playing BW?
One is obvious and the other is ridiculous.
But every starter is still playing BW.
There isn't a solid BW pro playing SC2 yet. That's a major point of the article... Only the worst players moved over. (This includes legends well past their prime).
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On May 12 2011 15:03 JIJIyO wrote:
Good shit Intrigue and Hot_Bid. Nice article.
And to people saying SC2 is just one year old, and SC had 10 years to develop, you have to consider the fact on HOW the game grew. The first year of pro SC people were living off cup noodles, sleeping on the floor, used their own winnings just to keep the team alive, etc to play this game. There was no system in place for pro SC when it first came out, and because of this the games were obviously worse compared to the games now. Despite being a different game, SC2 had the basis of SC to build on with team houses, training, etc. Please consider this before using those arguments.
While this is true, there is still game-specific developement that has to occur (in regards to development of play, builds, stratergies and the like), not to mention player mentality for those who crossed over to SC2 after a lull in their BW career, or those who are fresh to the scene with SC2 in the first place.
To say that SC2 is going to start at the same level of development, across all areas where development is important, is just silly.
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On May 12 2011 15:03 JIJIyO wrote:
Good shit Intrigue and Hot_Bid. Nice article.
And to people saying SC2 is just one year old, and SC had 10 years to develop, you have to consider the fact on HOW the game grew. The first year of pro SC people were living off cup noodles, sleeping on the floor, used their own winnings just to keep the team alive, etc to play this game. There was no system in place for pro SC when it first came out, and because of this the games were obviously worse compared to the games now. Despite being a different game, SC2 had the basis of SC to build on with team houses, training, etc. Please consider this before using those arguments.
This isn't valid. Let's look at modern-day BW - how good are most players after less than a year in a training house? Most aren't even seeing televised games. Flash was still all-ining people TSL_Rain style.
The game being new also means players have had less time to develop the best ways to play it.
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I never say this, but fantastic article. I've wanted to read a well thought-out reasoning for why BW pros would dominate SC2 since plenty of bw snobs say so frequently. I had no doubt the likes of jd, flash, fantasy, bisu and others would destroy but I wasn't sure about other a teamers and practice dummies.
Looks like next year will be incredible, can't wait.
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Great article, I agree with pretty much every point.
That said,
Intrigue wrote: Last year at MLG DC, I asked (Z)IdrA if he felt a sense of urgency to win a GSL before the top tier Brood War players switched. I was not sober enough to remember what he said. He sounded confident though, and I’m glad of it – foreigners are going to desperately need confidence if they are to keep up. Brood War's drawing power for live audiences has waned since the golden days, and I do not believe that the entire top tier of Brood War players will stay in that strange parallel world. They'll be here, a few at a time. Oh man, I'm coming.
Fixed.
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To all the people who keep talking about the sample size being too small for some of the players listed:
In BW, when you play a very small number of games in spite of being a pro for a long time (a couple of years) it's because you're so bad in practice and in qualifying for leagues you don't even get to play very much.
Sample size is irrelevant here. If you've played 30 games over 2 years as a BW player and are 40%, it's because you're bad (by pro BW standards). Not because you haven't gotten a chance. These guys practice 10 hours a day - if you're beating everyone internally it will get noticed and you'll get to play more.
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BTW this is basically the argument/frustration of American soccer fans. America would be, at a minimum, a perennial medal winner in the World Cup if every American athlete played soccer (meaning it paid more than football/basketball/baseballl)
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is awesome32274 Posts
On May 12 2011 13:52 Zrana wrote:
You didn't mention NaDa or July as much as you should have. Both amazing at sc1 (capable of beating flash/JD at times iirc but not rocking SC2 as hard as you say they should)
Different game, different skills. Mechanics mean slightly less, strategy slightly more. Sure some is transferable, but this really seems like more of the same tired old BW was better whine.
You say that there are hundreds of players who could come in and dominate SC2 at any moment. Well why haven't they? There's nothing to stop them taking the GSL, TSL and NASL prize pools. More than enough incentive.
The answer is that SC2 is still being figured out, and it takes a different sort of player to excel at a young game than a game where the rules have already been written.
Also you imply that SC2 is invalid as a sport until we have some godllike figure like Flash. Was football invalid before Beckham, Formula 1 before Schumacher?
No, they were still fun to watch. (well i dont like football but lots do)
NaDa and July would take exactly 0 bo5 series from Jaedong and Flash.
Football has other figures had other figures before Beckham, and Formula 1 had other figures before Schumacher. And while they are not completely necessary, they do help expose the scene a lot more.
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what everybody should get from this article is that IdrA should stop crying about imbalance and start practicing for real. It is hard to believe that a pro that was in korean doesn't believe in practicing because "mechanics are not that important in sc2, i just need to think about the game". LOL
great write-up. I feel that it was missing one thing though: before the BW S-class player switch over, we will have a influx of young new players who have the same characteristics that flash did when he began playing the game, and start dominating. sc2 has more potential to become more popular and more mainstream; a bigger player pool implies more chances for talent to be discovered. Not just in korea but in the rest of the world. The best chess players, even on blitz are not asian. Foreigners just need to embrace it and take it as a career, not as a hobby.
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Canada5155 Posts
On May 12 2011 15:06 Dfgj wrote:Show nested quote +On May 12 2011 15:03 JIJIyO wrote:
Good shit Intrigue and Hot_Bid. Nice article.
And to people saying SC2 is just one year old, and SC had 10 years to develop, you have to consider the fact on HOW the game grew. The first year of pro SC people were living off cup noodles, sleeping on the floor, used their own winnings just to keep the team alive, etc to play this game. There was no system in place for pro SC when it first came out, and because of this the games were obviously worse compared to the games now. Despite being a different game, SC2 had the basis of SC to build on with team houses, training, etc. Please consider this before using those arguments. This isn't valid. Let's look at modern-day BW - how good are most players after less than a year in a training house? Most aren't even seeing televised games. Flash was still all-ining people TSL_Rain style. The game being new also means players have had less time to develop the best ways to play it.
Flash won a title within one year of going pro. Did you read the article? It said this.
I can't keep reading the misinformation in some of these comments... I'm going to burst.
Burst into laughter, or rage, I don't know yet.
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On May 12 2011 14:55 GolemMadness wrote:Show nested quote +On May 12 2011 14:48 darmousseh wrote:On May 12 2011 14:37 KWik-E wrote:
I feel like the point of this article is to belittle the achievements of the SC2 champions. I feel like the article doesn't address the fact that most of these people who have switched over after having relatively unsuccessful BW careers most likely approached this new game with a work ethic and mind set that they most likely didn't have in their mediocre BW experience. ^^ This reflects my thoughts about the article. Just because they aren't the best RTS gamers in the world should it change anything. In sports, many great athletes choose one sport over another. For example, Michael Jordan was a great basketball player and some of the same athleticism would transfer over to baseball, but it's not 1-1. I think having talent spread out among multiple games is important for ESPORTS. Obviously the best thing for sc2 would be to have the best talent, but I don't think that any pros or any fans of sc2 care right now. The only people that really care about scbw players switching over are those who don't want them to switch over. It would be great to have jaedong, flash, bisu for sure, but I will enjoy watching Nestea, MVP, and MC instead. In the end, I don't understand the point of this article. So Top level bw players haven't switched over and so the best players in sc2 are mid level bw players. Ok, and? Your point as quoted is I am saying that there are 300 current pros and semi-pros that have the potential to come in and dominate SC2 at any moment, with a latency of a few months from the day they switch. Among this group there are a notable few that CRUSH any other players in terms of raw talent and/or work ethic and/or ability to learn. This knowledge cheapens any form of competition I see right now, no matter how much I try to enjoy the games. If the Top 500 football(american) players suddenly switched to soccer, we suddenly would forget the names of the current best soccer players (assuming the transfer of skills is the same as bw/sc2, which it's close enough). Yes that's true, but that doesn't make me think "Oh geez, I don't like soccer because the best athletes are playing american football so I should just watch american football instead". They are different games and while they are related, no one should ever see an "elephant in the room". When I talk to casual fans of watching sc2 I don't say "man, this would be so much better if flash was playing", take sc2 as it is and enjoy it, without any elephants. ...Are you serious? You think that a sport that's only really played in two countries has the best athletes on the planet and the athletes of a sport that's by far the most popular on the planet are inferior? Do you ACTUALLY think this?
American football is the #1 sport in the US and all of the best athletes go to play it and IF football was suddenly cancelled and the football players all went to play soccer instead, then yes, the United States would win every single world cup. There is a book about it called Soccernomics if you enjoy reading about sports.
Also it's just an analogy, but it's the closest one i can think of.
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When SC2 came out the BW players who made the switch where all:
1. Inconsistent A-teamers
2. B-teamers
3. Old-schoolers
And those guys are pretty much currently the best players in SC2 while the most talented BW players still play BW.
So in the eyes of long-time BW followers SC2 competition obviously lacks alot of legitimacy.
You can't fault new fans of SC2 to not see it this way though.
I really hate the term "former Brood War professional"-player though since it's so damn misleading since it applies to both Idra and Flash should he ever retire from BW.
This is an endless debate though since people with enough insight into BW to understand the difference between an S-class players and B-teamers won't fully appreciate SC2 competition until said S-class players make the switch while SC2 fans with no BW background will think it's "just mechanics".
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On May 12 2011 15:06 Anzekay wrote:Show nested quote +On May 12 2011 15:03 JIJIyO wrote:
Good shit Intrigue and Hot_Bid. Nice article.
And to people saying SC2 is just one year old, and SC had 10 years to develop, you have to consider the fact on HOW the game grew. The first year of pro SC people were living off cup noodles, sleeping on the floor, used their own winnings just to keep the team alive, etc to play this game. There was no system in place for pro SC when it first came out, and because of this the games were obviously worse compared to the games now. Despite being a different game, SC2 had the basis of SC to build on with team houses, training, etc. Please consider this before using those arguments. While this is true, there is still game-specific developement that has to occur (in regards to development of play, builds, stratergies and the like), not to mention player mentality for those who crossed over to SC2 after a lull in their BW career, or those who are fresh to the scene with SC2 in the first place. To say that SC2 is going to start at the same level of development, across all areas where development is important, is just silly.
I don't really think SC2 is going to start developing (sure, general things) once both expansions are released and major patch changes are no longer being done.
If I were successful in BW, knowing I could catch up within a few months, or even half a year, I'd reap the benefits of my career in BW until Blizzard gets done with balancing.
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Does it really matter? The scene is alive, the game is new, everything's growing and esports is penetrating the mainstream in the West like it never has before thanks to SC2. I don't understand why the discussion is so important to people. Well written to the OP, hopefully we see less threads about it now.
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On May 12 2011 15:09 IntoTheWow wrote:Show nested quote +On May 12 2011 13:52 Zrana wrote:
You didn't mention NaDa or July as much as you should have. Both amazing at sc1 (capable of beating flash/JD at times iirc but not rocking SC2 as hard as you say they should)
Different game, different skills. Mechanics mean slightly less, strategy slightly more. Sure some is transferable, but this really seems like more of the same tired old BW was better whine.
You say that there are hundreds of players who could come in and dominate SC2 at any moment. Well why haven't they? There's nothing to stop them taking the GSL, TSL and NASL prize pools. More than enough incentive.
The answer is that SC2 is still being figured out, and it takes a different sort of player to excel at a young game than a game where the rules have already been written.
Also you imply that SC2 is invalid as a sport until we have some godllike figure like Flash. Was football invalid before Beckham, Formula 1 before Schumacher?
No, they were still fun to watch. (well i dont like football but lots do) NaDa and July would take exactly 0 bo5 series from Jaedong and Flash. Football has other figures had other figures before Beckham, and Formula 1 had other figures before Schumacher. And while they are not completely necessary, they do help expose the scene a lot more.
that's what I stated, but instead I got the "rofl it's my opinion" response
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Canada5155 Posts
On May 12 2011 15:11 Popss wrote:
When SC2 came out the BW players who made the switch where all:
1. Inconsistent A-teamers
2. B-teamers
3. Old-schoolers
And those guys are pretty much currently the best players in SC2 while the most talented BW players still play BW.
So in the eyes of long-time BW followers SC2 competition obviously lacks alot of legitimacy.
You can't fault new fans of SC2 to not see it this way though.
I really hate the term "former Brood War professional"-player though since it's so damn misleading since it applies to both Idra and Flash should he ever retire from BW.
This is an endless debate though since people with enough insight into BW to understand the difference between an S-class players and B-teamers won't fully appreciate SC2 competition until said S-class players make the switch while SC2 fans with no BW background will think it's "just mechanics".
Nail -> Head.
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On May 12 2011 15:00 T0fuuu wrote:Show nested quote +On May 12 2011 14:55 GolemMadness wrote:On May 12 2011 14:48 darmousseh wrote:On May 12 2011 14:37 KWik-E wrote:
I feel like the point of this article is to belittle the achievements of the SC2 champions. I feel like the article doesn't address the fact that most of these people who have switched over after having relatively unsuccessful BW careers most likely approached this new game with a work ethic and mind set that they most likely didn't have in their mediocre BW experience. ^^ This reflects my thoughts about the article. Just because they aren't the best RTS gamers in the world should it change anything. In sports, many great athletes choose one sport over another. For example, Michael Jordan was a great basketball player and some of the same athleticism would transfer over to baseball, but it's not 1-1. I think having talent spread out among multiple games is important for ESPORTS. Obviously the best thing for sc2 would be to have the best talent, but I don't think that any pros or any fans of sc2 care right now. The only people that really care about scbw players switching over are those who don't want them to switch over. It would be great to have jaedong, flash, bisu for sure, but I will enjoy watching Nestea, MVP, and MC instead. In the end, I don't understand the point of this article. So Top level bw players haven't switched over and so the best players in sc2 are mid level bw players. Ok, and? Your point as quoted is I am saying that there are 300 current pros and semi-pros that have the potential to come in and dominate SC2 at any moment, with a latency of a few months from the day they switch. Among this group there are a notable few that CRUSH any other players in terms of raw talent and/or work ethic and/or ability to learn. This knowledge cheapens any form of competition I see right now, no matter how much I try to enjoy the games. If the Top 500 football(american) players suddenly switched to soccer, we suddenly would forget the names of the current best soccer players (assuming the transfer of skills is the same as bw/sc2, which it's close enough). Yes that's true, but that doesn't make me think "Oh geez, I don't like soccer because the best athletes are playing american football so I should just watch american football instead". They are different games and while they are related, no one should ever see an "elephant in the room". When I talk to casual fans of watching sc2 I don't say "man, this would be so much better if flash was playing", take sc2 as it is and enjoy it, without any elephants. ...Are you serious? You think that a sport that's only really played in two countries has the best athletes on the planet and the athletes of a sport that's by far the most popular on the planet are inferior? Do you ACTUALLY think this? ROFLMAO. But ignoring the fact that the top 500 american football players would get destroyed, the top 500 american football players would probably never leave because it is far more profitable to play their sport. Same problem the article has because it is entirely hypothetical and not realistic for a player to switch.
Only this would be like NFL players going back to college football. For some reason people continually deny this fact: SC2 is not a different game from BW. The mechanics are the same. The concepts are the same. Only everything in SC2 is easier. Are there new units and strategies? Sure. But it isnt as though knowing when to expand and when to attack is somehow lost in translation.
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On May 12 2011 15:10 HawaiianPig wrote:Show nested quote +On May 12 2011 15:06 Dfgj wrote:On May 12 2011 15:03 JIJIyO wrote:
Good shit Intrigue and Hot_Bid. Nice article.
And to people saying SC2 is just one year old, and SC had 10 years to develop, you have to consider the fact on HOW the game grew. The first year of pro SC people were living off cup noodles, sleeping on the floor, used their own winnings just to keep the team alive, etc to play this game. There was no system in place for pro SC when it first came out, and because of this the games were obviously worse compared to the games now. Despite being a different game, SC2 had the basis of SC to build on with team houses, training, etc. Please consider this before using those arguments. This isn't valid. Let's look at modern-day BW - how good are most players after less than a year in a training house? Most aren't even seeing televised games. Flash was still all-ining people TSL_Rain style. The game being new also means players have had less time to develop the best ways to play it. Flash won a title within one year of going pro. Did you read the article? It said this.I can't keep reading the misinformation in some of these comments... I'm going to burst. Burst into laughter, or rage, I don't know yet.
Flash won his OSL title on 150308. His first televised game was 150307, precisely one year earlier - and he most certainly was on a team before that, and practicing as such. This is by TLPD and memory, so I (or it) might be a bit off.
I'd appreciate if you bursted regardless, though.
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So the elephant in the room is that there are better players than the ones currently playing sc2 waiting in the wings for brood war to fizzle out or become less lucrative or whatever other scenario you'd like to invent to imagine top pros switching over, and this cheapens the viewing experience for you?
Honestly I fail to see what purpose this kind of outlook serves. The very pinnacle of brood war gamers do not need you to trumpet their potential for success in a similar game to the one they dominate, and if the time comes for flash or jaedong or bisu to move over to starcraft 2 their games, and the skill they display in them, will have merit on their own terms. Whether you think the players currently succeeding at starcraft 2 are fit to lick your boots or not should have as little effect on your enjoyment of the game as does the potential of gamers who are not born yet or the potential of players who never got the chance to go pro in the first place but had the skill. They are not competing yet, they may in fact never be competing on this stage, and if you allow something as trivial as this to poison your enjoyment of players, some of whom may have the potential for domination you are so desperately hoping to surface, then you have made the conscious choice to miss out on some objectively incredible games, players, and innovation.
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On May 12 2011 15:12 Ruscour wrote:
Does it really matter? The scene is alive, the game is new, everything's growing and esports is penetrating the mainstream in the West like it never has before thanks to SC2. I don't understand why the discussion is so important to people. Well written to the OP, hopefully we see less threads about it now.
this.
no offence op, but what i took out of your post is -
"sc2 pros sucked at bw, bw pros are the best, bw pros will dominate sc2"
i dont understand why this is necessary. feels like a sc2 bash thread.
maybe people who followed bw are irritated that sc2 is really breaking through and making esports popular worldwide, i dont know.
if im taking the post the wrong way, forgive me, but thats just what it feels like to me.
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EPT
