EPTThe Elephant in the Room - Page 12
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Dingobloo
Australia1903 Posts
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Misanthrope
United States924 Posts
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elementz
United States281 Posts
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gurrpp
United States437 Posts
The main message I took from this is to be excited for sc2. If you thought sc2 is exciting now, wait until more A and B teamers from broodwar start switching over. | ||
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Shizel
Canada23 Posts
It's nice to see facts and statistics clearly supporting an argument, with a very defined tone. Keep up the great work! | ||
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supdubdup
United States916 Posts
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HawaiianPig
Canada5155 Posts
On May 12 2011 14:50 Mordiford wrote: Phew, glad some of us are on the same page... I didn't find it a particularly good read. Some of the stats posted seem shallow and altogether irrelevant because the number of games played don't so much so suggest that a lot of these players were bad in BW, but that they never seriously played the game... Ace is listed as a success story with his 2-0, 100% win ratio. The fuck? Even if there's more than the stats in terms of their success, all you list is the stats to show how unsuccessful they were, so if one guy goes 2-0 and leaves, he's a success, but the dude who goes 2-3 is failure. They played a handful of games... It doesn't mean much. If you used something other than limited stats it might be conveyed better. They didn't play many games because they were not good enough to participate in televised matches. A significantly lower number of games played, especially with respect to the decline in number of games played by the legends-who-deserve-their-own-section, denotes subpar performance. | ||
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Headshot
United States1656 Posts
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T0fuuu
Australia2275 Posts
But it doesn't tell us anything that wasn't already obvious before and it has the same problem as the all other as all other bw pro vs sc2 pro debates before it. The top of the top BW players are superior in every way but will never be able to prove it because they will never switch games. Anyways I think the editor is missing one key point. The longer sc2 goes on the less the BW pros will be dominant. Sure at this stage of sc2 any A class bw pro will be able to play at a sc2 S class level within a month but what about 2 or 3 years from now when other A class BW pros may have already switched over? Will we still see dominance of current bw pros over recent bw->sc2 pros that play the game? I somehow doubt it. And the truth is that 2-3 years later its possible that not even flash or jaedong will be dominant in bw (EFFORT COMEBACKK!! !!) and might find themselves "retiring" to sc2 for easy money and the chance to play/travel internationally. Which is something that BW cant offer unless its offseason vacation time!! | ||
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Motiva
United States1774 Posts
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Lamphead
Canada241 Posts
What if, as Idra has said a bunch of times, you don't need to practice SC2 because it's just a series of coin-tosses? What if SC2 eventually evolves to rest in a place where, at the highest level, mechanical skill no longer matters, the metagame has been more figured out, and games now consist purely of luck and cheese and head games? I could imagine SC2 evolving into a game where it becomes glorified rock-paper-scizzors. I thought THAT was the real elephant in the room.. If Flash practiced this game for a month or two and he WASN'T clearly the best player in the world at SC2 right now, we'd be in the real problem. | ||
DivinO
United States4796 Posts
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GolemMadness
Canada11044 Posts
On May 12 2011 14:48 darmousseh wrote: ^^ This reflects my thoughts about the article. Just because they aren't the best RTS gamers in the world should it change anything. In sports, many great athletes choose one sport over another. For example, Michael Jordan was a great basketball player and some of the same athleticism would transfer over to baseball, but it's not 1-1. I think having talent spread out among multiple games is important for ESPORTS. Obviously the best thing for sc2 would be to have the best talent, but I don't think that any pros or any fans of sc2 care right now. The only people that really care about scbw players switching over are those who don't want them to switch over. It would be great to have jaedong, flash, bisu for sure, but I will enjoy watching Nestea, MVP, and MC instead. In the end, I don't understand the point of this article. So Top level bw players haven't switched over and so the best players in sc2 are mid level bw players. Ok, and? Your point as quoted is If the Top 500 football(american) players suddenly switched to soccer, we suddenly would forget the names of the current best soccer players (assuming the transfer of skills is the same as bw/sc2, which it's close enough). Yes that's true, but that doesn't make me think "Oh geez, I don't like soccer because the best athletes are playing american football so I should just watch american football instead". They are different games and while they are related, no one should ever see an "elephant in the room". When I talk to casual fans of watching sc2 I don't say "man, this would be so much better if flash was playing", take sc2 as it is and enjoy it, without any elephants. ...Are you serious? You think that a sport that's only really played in two countries has the best athletes on the planet and the athletes of a sport that's by far the most popular on the planet are inferior? Do you ACTUALLY think this? | ||
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dacthehork
United States2000 Posts
Slavery is not cool even if it's common in korea | ||
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nurle
Norway308 Posts
On May 12 2011 13:52 Zrana wrote: You didn't mention NaDa or July as much as you should have. Both amazing at sc1 (capable of beating flash/JD at times iirc but not rocking SC2 as hard as you say they should) Different game, different skills. Mechanics mean slightly less, strategy slightly more. Sure some is transferable, but this really seems like more of the same tired old BW was better whine. You say that there are hundreds of players who could come in and dominate SC2 at any moment. Well why haven't they? There's nothing to stop them taking the GSL, TSL and NASL prize pools. More than enough incentive. The answer is that SC2 is still being figured out, and it takes a different sort of player to excel at a young game than a game where the rules have already been written. Also you imply that SC2 is invalid as a sport until we have some godllike figure like Flash. Was football invalid before Beckham, Formula 1 before Schumacher? No, they were still fun to watch. (well i dont like football but lots do) did u actually read the whole thing? | ||
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mikyaJ
1834 Posts
Imagine some mogul starts a new Football league (we'll call it the WSL) in opposition to the already existing league... the ISL. Lacking playing time or real success, a lot of the "bench-warmers" or guys past their prime (read bad players) join this new league for a change of pace, or a new opportunity to be a star. The good players that stayed behind in the ISL did so because they are stable just continue on playing in their league. What the OP is saying is a "farce" is that winning the new WSL does not matter at all, because the competition is a joke compared to the ISL. As in, if any good ISL player decided to switch and shatter the universe, they would dominate the WSL and that (in the opinion of the OP) invalidates the league as a lesser being. Now, obviously the WSL represents SC2, and the ISL, BW. | ||
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Zirith
Canada403 Posts
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Ferrose
United States11378 Posts
Like MarineKing. He dominated GSL and everyone was like "Who is this guy?!" then everyone figured out that he was a BW progamer. Maybe I'm Reaching (pun intended), but I think the article makes a very valid point. | ||
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cYaN
Norway3322 Posts
On May 12 2011 14:27 Zlasher wrote: I don't think they're saying its a huge problem, it is as the title states, the elephant in the room. Very well, I don't think it's an elephant. :D | ||
ArvickHero
10387 Posts
On May 12 2011 14:46 moopie wrote: To be fair Stork's low APM works for him because he plays toss, it really wouldn't cut it as zerg. funny that you say that, because Stork's and Action's APMs are pretty similar (around 250-300). And Action is a practice house monster apparently On May 12 2011 14:38 Tosho wrote: I think its a bit harsh to call the level of competition in SC2 a farce, sure I agree with you the scene isnt nearly as competitive as BW, but it is still competitive. Was BW this fierce one year into its life cycle? Now wait a second before you jump onto that point. SC2 is wholly set up to take on the same values of practice and competition as BW, and I believe that within a year or two's time SC2 will be well on its way to coming close to the holy grail that is BW. Both naturally from within its own player base and injected from BW ethics and player transfers. First years of Pro-BW had progamers moving out of their relatively comfortable homes into moving into almost poverty like conditions, starving for days sometimes. In a sense, BW is far more fierce than SC2 ever will be. On May 12 2011 14:55 dacthehork wrote: I liked the article until it got to the point where forced 12 hours a day of practice was good, and "lax" regimes where bad. Slavery is not cool even if it's common in korea Progamers are forced to practice that much because that's the amount of practice needed to even begin competing.. it's not slavery if you can simply just opt out? | ||
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