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The Elephant in the Room - Page 13

Forum Index > Final Edits
6514 CommentsPost a Reply
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emecee
Profile Joined September 2010
United States222 Posts
May 12 2011 05:58 GMT
#241
On May 12 2011 14:57 Zirith wrote:
Really enjoyable read. The number of idiots that responded to this makes me sad

yes particularly this one

User was warned for this post
NibbloniaN
Profile Blog Joined September 2009
United States377 Posts
May 12 2011 05:58 GMT
#242
I've heard this discussion a lot around here on TL but I really liked the part about the practice regimen, I think that as time goes by teams are going to have to practice better and better to keep up with the progression of the game
My folks were always on me to groom myself and wear underpants. What am I, the pope?
mikyaJ
Profile Joined April 2011
1834 Posts
May 12 2011 05:59 GMT
#243
On May 12 2011 14:55 GolemMadness wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 12 2011 14:48 darmousseh wrote:
On May 12 2011 14:37 KWik-E wrote:
I feel like the point of this article is to belittle the achievements of the SC2 champions. I feel like the article doesn't address the fact that most of these people who have switched over after having relatively unsuccessful BW careers most likely approached this new game with a work ethic and mind set that they most likely didn't have in their mediocre BW experience.


^^
This reflects my thoughts about the article. Just because they aren't the best RTS gamers in the world should it change anything. In sports, many great athletes choose one sport over another. For example, Michael Jordan was a great basketball player and some of the same athleticism would transfer over to baseball, but it's not 1-1. I think having talent spread out among multiple games is important for ESPORTS. Obviously the best thing for sc2 would be to have the best talent, but I don't think that any pros or any fans of sc2 care right now. The only people that really care about scbw players switching over are those who don't want them to switch over. It would be great to have jaedong, flash, bisu for sure, but I will enjoy watching Nestea, MVP, and MC instead.

In the end, I don't understand the point of this article. So Top level bw players haven't switched over and so the best players in sc2 are mid level bw players. Ok, and?

Your point as quoted is

I am saying that there are 300 current pros and semi-pros that have the potential to come in and dominate SC2 at any moment, with a latency of a few months from the day they switch. Among this group there are a notable few that CRUSH any other players in terms of raw talent and/or work ethic and/or ability to learn. This knowledge cheapens any form of competition I see right now, no matter how much I try to enjoy the games.


If the Top 500 football(american) players suddenly switched to soccer, we suddenly would forget the names of the current best soccer players (assuming the transfer of skills is the same as bw/sc2, which it's close enough). Yes that's true, but that doesn't make me think "Oh geez, I don't like soccer because the best athletes are playing american football so I should just watch american football instead". They are different games and while they are related, no one should ever see an "elephant in the room". When I talk to casual fans of watching sc2 I don't say "man, this would be so much better if flash was playing", take sc2 as it is and enjoy it, without any elephants.


...Are you serious? You think that a sport that's only really played in two countries has the best athletes on the planet and the athletes of a sport that's by far the most popular on the planet are inferior? Do you ACTUALLY think this?

Do you not realize that it's an analogy. Can you ACTUALLY not perceive that? Or is it to hard.
MKP||TSL
d(O.o)a
Profile Blog Joined June 2008
Canada5066 Posts
May 12 2011 05:59 GMT
#244
On May 12 2011 14:52 Dingobloo wrote:
As an Australian I feel like I have a weird perspective on this as we have multiple different types of egg-shaped ball sports (AFL, Rugby League, Rugby Union) that happen simultaneously and occasionally there will be cross-code snipes for the sake of money. The truth is that the players who got in on the ground floor of the sport, despite the transferable skills and athleticism involved, often out-perform their cross-code peers, eventually the others may catch up but they rarely reach the heights that they had in their prior codes. Bit of a stretch, but I have no reason to believe that the skill sets are more or less transferable from sc1 to sc2.


But in Jaedong/Flash/Bisu's cases it's different because the three of them all excel in work ethic, raw mechanics, drive, as well as natural skill. There is no true analogy to other sports that fits in this situation because they're unique to the point where they have the skills to be good regardless of what they do, factor in that SC2 while being a different game uses a large amount of the same skills as BW did and there's just no way to compare. The closest would be CFL and NFL because they're both the same game different rules(strategies in bw/sc2), but even then the comparison isn't the same.
Hi.
LuckyMacro
Profile Joined July 2010
United States1482 Posts
May 12 2011 05:59 GMT
#245
On May 12 2011 13:52 Zrana wrote:
You didn't mention NaDa or July as much as you should have. Both amazing at sc1 (capable of beating flash/JD at times iirc but not rocking SC2 as hard as you say they should)


Not gonna talk about July, but for Nada, university is his primary focus...thus I would think that he could be posting up much better results if school was out of the picture.
mikyaJ
Profile Joined April 2011
1834 Posts
May 12 2011 05:59 GMT
#246
On May 12 2011 14:58 emecee wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 12 2011 14:57 Zirith wrote:
Really enjoyable read. The number of idiots that responded to this makes me sad

yes particularly this one

???
what?
MKP||TSL
wrestlingfool08
Profile Joined November 2009
United States139 Posts
May 12 2011 06:00 GMT
#247
Really great article, thank you ^^
T0fuuu
Profile Blog Joined May 2009
Australia2275 Posts
May 12 2011 06:00 GMT
#248
On May 12 2011 14:55 GolemMadness wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 12 2011 14:48 darmousseh wrote:
On May 12 2011 14:37 KWik-E wrote:
I feel like the point of this article is to belittle the achievements of the SC2 champions. I feel like the article doesn't address the fact that most of these people who have switched over after having relatively unsuccessful BW careers most likely approached this new game with a work ethic and mind set that they most likely didn't have in their mediocre BW experience.


^^
This reflects my thoughts about the article. Just because they aren't the best RTS gamers in the world should it change anything. In sports, many great athletes choose one sport over another. For example, Michael Jordan was a great basketball player and some of the same athleticism would transfer over to baseball, but it's not 1-1. I think having talent spread out among multiple games is important for ESPORTS. Obviously the best thing for sc2 would be to have the best talent, but I don't think that any pros or any fans of sc2 care right now. The only people that really care about scbw players switching over are those who don't want them to switch over. It would be great to have jaedong, flash, bisu for sure, but I will enjoy watching Nestea, MVP, and MC instead.

In the end, I don't understand the point of this article. So Top level bw players haven't switched over and so the best players in sc2 are mid level bw players. Ok, and?

Your point as quoted is

I am saying that there are 300 current pros and semi-pros that have the potential to come in and dominate SC2 at any moment, with a latency of a few months from the day they switch. Among this group there are a notable few that CRUSH any other players in terms of raw talent and/or work ethic and/or ability to learn. This knowledge cheapens any form of competition I see right now, no matter how much I try to enjoy the games.


If the Top 500 football(american) players suddenly switched to soccer, we suddenly would forget the names of the current best soccer players (assuming the transfer of skills is the same as bw/sc2, which it's close enough). Yes that's true, but that doesn't make me think "Oh geez, I don't like soccer because the best athletes are playing american football so I should just watch american football instead". They are different games and while they are related, no one should ever see an "elephant in the room". When I talk to casual fans of watching sc2 I don't say "man, this would be so much better if flash was playing", take sc2 as it is and enjoy it, without any elephants.


...Are you serious? You think that a sport that's only really played in two countries has the best athletes on the planet and the athletes of a sport that's by far the most popular on the planet are inferior? Do you ACTUALLY think this?


ROFLMAO. But ignoring the fact that the top 500 american football players would get destroyed, the top 500 american football players would probably never leave because it is far more profitable to play their sport. Same problem the article has because it is entirely hypothetical and not realistic for a player to switch.
Anzekay
Profile Joined March 2011
Australia63 Posts
May 12 2011 06:00 GMT
#249
I have to wonder, why is it that we so often talk about how exciting SC2 will be when BW players switch over, rather than just talking about how exciting it will be when the current SC2 pros get better and better?
khellian
Profile Joined February 2010
Korea (South)922 Posts
May 12 2011 06:01 GMT
#250
Cant help but agree, well written.
GolemMadness
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
Canada11044 Posts
May 12 2011 06:01 GMT
#251
On May 12 2011 14:59 mikyaJ wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 12 2011 14:55 GolemMadness wrote:
On May 12 2011 14:48 darmousseh wrote:
On May 12 2011 14:37 KWik-E wrote:
I feel like the point of this article is to belittle the achievements of the SC2 champions. I feel like the article doesn't address the fact that most of these people who have switched over after having relatively unsuccessful BW careers most likely approached this new game with a work ethic and mind set that they most likely didn't have in their mediocre BW experience.


^^
This reflects my thoughts about the article. Just because they aren't the best RTS gamers in the world should it change anything. In sports, many great athletes choose one sport over another. For example, Michael Jordan was a great basketball player and some of the same athleticism would transfer over to baseball, but it's not 1-1. I think having talent spread out among multiple games is important for ESPORTS. Obviously the best thing for sc2 would be to have the best talent, but I don't think that any pros or any fans of sc2 care right now. The only people that really care about scbw players switching over are those who don't want them to switch over. It would be great to have jaedong, flash, bisu for sure, but I will enjoy watching Nestea, MVP, and MC instead.

In the end, I don't understand the point of this article. So Top level bw players haven't switched over and so the best players in sc2 are mid level bw players. Ok, and?

Your point as quoted is

I am saying that there are 300 current pros and semi-pros that have the potential to come in and dominate SC2 at any moment, with a latency of a few months from the day they switch. Among this group there are a notable few that CRUSH any other players in terms of raw talent and/or work ethic and/or ability to learn. This knowledge cheapens any form of competition I see right now, no matter how much I try to enjoy the games.


If the Top 500 football(american) players suddenly switched to soccer, we suddenly would forget the names of the current best soccer players (assuming the transfer of skills is the same as bw/sc2, which it's close enough). Yes that's true, but that doesn't make me think "Oh geez, I don't like soccer because the best athletes are playing american football so I should just watch american football instead". They are different games and while they are related, no one should ever see an "elephant in the room". When I talk to casual fans of watching sc2 I don't say "man, this would be so much better if flash was playing", take sc2 as it is and enjoy it, without any elephants.


...Are you serious? You think that a sport that's only really played in two countries has the best athletes on the planet and the athletes of a sport that's by far the most popular on the planet are inferior? Do you ACTUALLY think this?

Do you not realize that it's an analogy. Can you ACTUALLY not perceive that? Or is it to hard.


Wow, really? I totally missed that. I mean, it makes absolutely no sense, but now that I know it's an analogy it's alright.
http://na.op.gg/summoner/userName=FLABREZU
HQuality
Profile Joined October 2009
2682 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-05-12 06:02:29
May 12 2011 06:01 GMT
#252
it's just too fat
yo btw tsl3 semifinals was no ex-scbw progamers at all for example
No carpal tunnel no skill
vrok
Profile Joined August 2009
Sweden2541 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-05-12 06:04:39
May 12 2011 06:03 GMT
#253
This wasn't obvious since forever? You have a paragraph just to answer what the point is, but I fail to see one. It's just "I'm unable to enjoy these games because of x", where x in this case might as well be that it rains in the rainforest.
"Starcraft 2 very easy game" - White-Ra
Probulous
Profile Blog Joined March 2011
Australia3894 Posts
May 12 2011 06:03 GMT
#254
On May 12 2011 15:00 Anzekay wrote:
I have to wonder, why is it that we so often talk about how exciting SC2 will be when BW players switch over, rather than just talking about how exciting it will be when the current SC2 pros get better and better?


Because BW is better and will always be better in every single way...Apparently.

It really annoys me that there is pervasive snide superiority of BW supporters. I love BW, played for years but that doesn't mean I can't appreciate SC2 for what it is.
"Dude has some really interesting midgame switches that I wouldn't have expected. "I violated your house" into "HIHO THE DAIRY OH!" really threw me. You don't usually expect children's poetry harass as a follow up " - AmericanUmlaut
JIJIyO
Profile Blog Joined January 2009
Canada1957 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-05-12 06:04:37
May 12 2011 06:03 GMT
#255
Good shit Intrigue and Hot_Bid. Nice article.

And to people saying SC2 is just one year old, and SC had 10 years to develop, you have to consider the fact on HOW the game grew. The first year of pro SC people were living off cup noodles, sleeping on the floor, used their own winnings just to keep the team alive, etc to play this game. There was no system in place for pro SC when it first came out, and because of this the games were obviously worse compared to the games now. Despite being a different game, SC2 had the basis of SC to build on with team houses, training, etc. Please consider this before using those arguments.
KT_Violet
sickoota
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
Canada918 Posts
May 12 2011 06:04 GMT
#256
Regarding Nada, it definitely bears mentioning that he is rocking sc2 while going to university. He was approaching mediocore when he left BW, and he is probably the most consistent Korean sc2 pro despite getting a degree at the same time...
I could spend a while with that smile
Thanatos1001
Profile Joined December 2010
Australia16 Posts
May 12 2011 06:04 GMT
#257
Fantastic read. Enjoyable, thought out, and easy to read. :D
"I shut my eyes in order to see." - Paul Gauguin
fantomex
Profile Joined June 2009
United States313 Posts
May 12 2011 06:04 GMT
#258
Your argument is schizophrenic.

Are you saying the Kobe's and Jordan's are still playing BW? Or are you saying every starter in the NBA is still playing BW?

One is obvious and the other is ridiculous.
Replay or GTFO
Rihtari
Profile Joined April 2011
Germany14 Posts
May 12 2011 06:05 GMT
#259
Nicely written article, thank you!

I fully agree that the relatively young SC2 scene is still in a very early stage and it, kind of, reminds me of how BW started out in Korea (and in the 'west', that is). All players are still experimenting what works for them (with the result of, in comparison to BW matches and their nowadays relatively static character (my personal impression!), many interesting things and builds happening). As soon as all the professional players out there, however, go the next step and fine-tune their micro abilities, I can see SC2 being even more watchable than BW ever was - simply because SC2 contains a lesser extent of, in my opinion, less watchable macro (don't get me wrong: this is not meant as SC2>BW or BW>SC2 or anything else, I see (and watch) them both simply as something completely different).

That being said, current top BW gamers might have the advantage of better micro and better multitasking abilities in general, but I certainly think that the SC2 scene will eventually reach this point as well.
Eeeegor
Profile Joined April 2005
Australia809 Posts
May 12 2011 06:06 GMT
#260
Great write up - thanks for putting the time into this!
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