• Log InLog In
  • Register
Liquid`
Team Liquid Liquipedia
EST 09:37
CET 15:37
KST 23:37
  • Home
  • Forum
  • Calendar
  • Streams
  • Liquipedia
  • Features
  • Store
  • EPT
  • TL+
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Smash
  • Heroes
  • Counter-Strike
  • Overwatch
  • Liquibet
  • Fantasy StarCraft
  • TLPD
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Blogs
Forum Sidebar
Events/Features
News
Featured News
RSL Revival - 2025 Season Finals Preview8RSL Season 3 - Playoffs Preview0RSL Season 3 - RO16 Groups C & D Preview0RSL Season 3 - RO16 Groups A & B Preview2TL.net Map Contest #21: Winners12
Community News
Weekly Cups (Dec 15-21): Classic wins big, MaxPax & Clem take weeklies3ComeBackTV's documentary on Byun's Career !10Weekly Cups (Dec 8-14): MaxPax, Clem, Cure win4Weekly Cups (Dec 1-7): Clem doubles, Solar gets over the hump1Weekly Cups (Nov 24-30): MaxPax, Clem, herO win2
StarCraft 2
General
Weekly Cups (Dec 15-21): Classic wins big, MaxPax & Clem take weeklies ComeBackTV's documentary on Byun's Career ! Micro Lags When Playing SC2? When will we find out if there are more tournament Weekly Cups (Dec 8-14): MaxPax, Clem, Cure win
Tourneys
$100 Prize Pool - Winter Warp Gate Masters Showdow $5,000+ WardiTV 2025 Championship Sparkling Tuna Cup - Weekly Open Tournament Winter Warp Gate Amateur Showdown #1 RSL Offline Finals Info - Dec 13 and 14!
Strategy
Custom Maps
Map Editor closed ?
External Content
Mutation # 505 Rise From Ashes Mutation # 504 Retribution Mutation # 503 Fowl Play Mutation # 502 Negative Reinforcement
Brood War
General
BW General Discussion FlaSh on: Biggest Problem With SnOw's Playstyle soO on: FanTaSy's Potential Return to StarCraft BGH Auto Balance -> http://bghmmr.eu/ Anyone remember me from 2000s Bnet EAST server?
Tourneys
[Megathread] Daily Proleagues [BSL21] LB QuarterFinals - Sunday 21:00 CET Small VOD Thread 2.0 [BSL21] WB SEMIFINALS - Saturday 21:00 CET
Strategy
Simple Questions, Simple Answers Game Theory for Starcraft Current Meta Fighting Spirit mining rates
Other Games
General Games
Nintendo Switch Thread Stormgate/Frost Giant Megathread Beyond All Reason Path of Exile General RTS Discussion Thread
Dota 2
Official 'what is Dota anymore' discussion
League of Legends
Heroes of the Storm
Simple Questions, Simple Answers Heroes of the Storm 2.0
Hearthstone
Deck construction bug Heroes of StarCraft mini-set
TL Mafia
Mafia Game Mode Feedback/Ideas Survivor II: The Amazon Sengoku Mafia TL Mafia Community Thread
Community
General
Russo-Ukrainian War Thread US Politics Mega-thread The Games Industry And ATVI Things Aren’t Peaceful in Palestine YouTube Thread
Fan Clubs
White-Ra Fan Club
Media & Entertainment
Anime Discussion Thread [Manga] One Piece Movie Discussion!
Sports
2024 - 2026 Football Thread Formula 1 Discussion
World Cup 2022
Tech Support
Computer Build, Upgrade & Buying Resource Thread
TL Community
The Automated Ban List TL+ Announced Where to ask questions and add stream?
Blogs
The (Hidden) Drug Problem in…
TrAiDoS
I decided to write a webnov…
DjKniteX
James Bond movies ranking - pa…
Topin
Thanks for the RSL
Hildegard
Customize Sidebar...

Website Feedback

Closed Threads



Active: 862 users

The Elephant in the Room - Page 13

Forum Index > Final Edits
6514 CommentsPost a Reply
Prev 1 11 12 13 14 15 326 Next
emecee
Profile Joined September 2010
United States222 Posts
May 12 2011 05:58 GMT
#241
On May 12 2011 14:57 Zirith wrote:
Really enjoyable read. The number of idiots that responded to this makes me sad

yes particularly this one

User was warned for this post
NibbloniaN
Profile Blog Joined September 2009
United States377 Posts
May 12 2011 05:58 GMT
#242
I've heard this discussion a lot around here on TL but I really liked the part about the practice regimen, I think that as time goes by teams are going to have to practice better and better to keep up with the progression of the game
My folks were always on me to groom myself and wear underpants. What am I, the pope?
mikyaJ
Profile Joined April 2011
1834 Posts
May 12 2011 05:59 GMT
#243
On May 12 2011 14:55 GolemMadness wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 12 2011 14:48 darmousseh wrote:
On May 12 2011 14:37 KWik-E wrote:
I feel like the point of this article is to belittle the achievements of the SC2 champions. I feel like the article doesn't address the fact that most of these people who have switched over after having relatively unsuccessful BW careers most likely approached this new game with a work ethic and mind set that they most likely didn't have in their mediocre BW experience.


^^
This reflects my thoughts about the article. Just because they aren't the best RTS gamers in the world should it change anything. In sports, many great athletes choose one sport over another. For example, Michael Jordan was a great basketball player and some of the same athleticism would transfer over to baseball, but it's not 1-1. I think having talent spread out among multiple games is important for ESPORTS. Obviously the best thing for sc2 would be to have the best talent, but I don't think that any pros or any fans of sc2 care right now. The only people that really care about scbw players switching over are those who don't want them to switch over. It would be great to have jaedong, flash, bisu for sure, but I will enjoy watching Nestea, MVP, and MC instead.

In the end, I don't understand the point of this article. So Top level bw players haven't switched over and so the best players in sc2 are mid level bw players. Ok, and?

Your point as quoted is

I am saying that there are 300 current pros and semi-pros that have the potential to come in and dominate SC2 at any moment, with a latency of a few months from the day they switch. Among this group there are a notable few that CRUSH any other players in terms of raw talent and/or work ethic and/or ability to learn. This knowledge cheapens any form of competition I see right now, no matter how much I try to enjoy the games.


If the Top 500 football(american) players suddenly switched to soccer, we suddenly would forget the names of the current best soccer players (assuming the transfer of skills is the same as bw/sc2, which it's close enough). Yes that's true, but that doesn't make me think "Oh geez, I don't like soccer because the best athletes are playing american football so I should just watch american football instead". They are different games and while they are related, no one should ever see an "elephant in the room". When I talk to casual fans of watching sc2 I don't say "man, this would be so much better if flash was playing", take sc2 as it is and enjoy it, without any elephants.


...Are you serious? You think that a sport that's only really played in two countries has the best athletes on the planet and the athletes of a sport that's by far the most popular on the planet are inferior? Do you ACTUALLY think this?

Do you not realize that it's an analogy. Can you ACTUALLY not perceive that? Or is it to hard.
MKP||TSL
d(O.o)a
Profile Blog Joined June 2008
Canada5066 Posts
May 12 2011 05:59 GMT
#244
On May 12 2011 14:52 Dingobloo wrote:
As an Australian I feel like I have a weird perspective on this as we have multiple different types of egg-shaped ball sports (AFL, Rugby League, Rugby Union) that happen simultaneously and occasionally there will be cross-code snipes for the sake of money. The truth is that the players who got in on the ground floor of the sport, despite the transferable skills and athleticism involved, often out-perform their cross-code peers, eventually the others may catch up but they rarely reach the heights that they had in their prior codes. Bit of a stretch, but I have no reason to believe that the skill sets are more or less transferable from sc1 to sc2.


But in Jaedong/Flash/Bisu's cases it's different because the three of them all excel in work ethic, raw mechanics, drive, as well as natural skill. There is no true analogy to other sports that fits in this situation because they're unique to the point where they have the skills to be good regardless of what they do, factor in that SC2 while being a different game uses a large amount of the same skills as BW did and there's just no way to compare. The closest would be CFL and NFL because they're both the same game different rules(strategies in bw/sc2), but even then the comparison isn't the same.
Hi.
LuckyMacro
Profile Joined July 2010
United States1482 Posts
May 12 2011 05:59 GMT
#245
On May 12 2011 13:52 Zrana wrote:
You didn't mention NaDa or July as much as you should have. Both amazing at sc1 (capable of beating flash/JD at times iirc but not rocking SC2 as hard as you say they should)


Not gonna talk about July, but for Nada, university is his primary focus...thus I would think that he could be posting up much better results if school was out of the picture.
mikyaJ
Profile Joined April 2011
1834 Posts
May 12 2011 05:59 GMT
#246
On May 12 2011 14:58 emecee wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 12 2011 14:57 Zirith wrote:
Really enjoyable read. The number of idiots that responded to this makes me sad

yes particularly this one

???
what?
MKP||TSL
wrestlingfool08
Profile Joined November 2009
United States139 Posts
May 12 2011 06:00 GMT
#247
Really great article, thank you ^^
T0fuuu
Profile Blog Joined May 2009
Australia2275 Posts
May 12 2011 06:00 GMT
#248
On May 12 2011 14:55 GolemMadness wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 12 2011 14:48 darmousseh wrote:
On May 12 2011 14:37 KWik-E wrote:
I feel like the point of this article is to belittle the achievements of the SC2 champions. I feel like the article doesn't address the fact that most of these people who have switched over after having relatively unsuccessful BW careers most likely approached this new game with a work ethic and mind set that they most likely didn't have in their mediocre BW experience.


^^
This reflects my thoughts about the article. Just because they aren't the best RTS gamers in the world should it change anything. In sports, many great athletes choose one sport over another. For example, Michael Jordan was a great basketball player and some of the same athleticism would transfer over to baseball, but it's not 1-1. I think having talent spread out among multiple games is important for ESPORTS. Obviously the best thing for sc2 would be to have the best talent, but I don't think that any pros or any fans of sc2 care right now. The only people that really care about scbw players switching over are those who don't want them to switch over. It would be great to have jaedong, flash, bisu for sure, but I will enjoy watching Nestea, MVP, and MC instead.

In the end, I don't understand the point of this article. So Top level bw players haven't switched over and so the best players in sc2 are mid level bw players. Ok, and?

Your point as quoted is

I am saying that there are 300 current pros and semi-pros that have the potential to come in and dominate SC2 at any moment, with a latency of a few months from the day they switch. Among this group there are a notable few that CRUSH any other players in terms of raw talent and/or work ethic and/or ability to learn. This knowledge cheapens any form of competition I see right now, no matter how much I try to enjoy the games.


If the Top 500 football(american) players suddenly switched to soccer, we suddenly would forget the names of the current best soccer players (assuming the transfer of skills is the same as bw/sc2, which it's close enough). Yes that's true, but that doesn't make me think "Oh geez, I don't like soccer because the best athletes are playing american football so I should just watch american football instead". They are different games and while they are related, no one should ever see an "elephant in the room". When I talk to casual fans of watching sc2 I don't say "man, this would be so much better if flash was playing", take sc2 as it is and enjoy it, without any elephants.


...Are you serious? You think that a sport that's only really played in two countries has the best athletes on the planet and the athletes of a sport that's by far the most popular on the planet are inferior? Do you ACTUALLY think this?


ROFLMAO. But ignoring the fact that the top 500 american football players would get destroyed, the top 500 american football players would probably never leave because it is far more profitable to play their sport. Same problem the article has because it is entirely hypothetical and not realistic for a player to switch.
Anzekay
Profile Joined March 2011
Australia63 Posts
May 12 2011 06:00 GMT
#249
I have to wonder, why is it that we so often talk about how exciting SC2 will be when BW players switch over, rather than just talking about how exciting it will be when the current SC2 pros get better and better?
khellian
Profile Joined February 2010
Korea (South)922 Posts
May 12 2011 06:01 GMT
#250
Cant help but agree, well written.
GolemMadness
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
Canada11044 Posts
May 12 2011 06:01 GMT
#251
On May 12 2011 14:59 mikyaJ wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 12 2011 14:55 GolemMadness wrote:
On May 12 2011 14:48 darmousseh wrote:
On May 12 2011 14:37 KWik-E wrote:
I feel like the point of this article is to belittle the achievements of the SC2 champions. I feel like the article doesn't address the fact that most of these people who have switched over after having relatively unsuccessful BW careers most likely approached this new game with a work ethic and mind set that they most likely didn't have in their mediocre BW experience.


^^
This reflects my thoughts about the article. Just because they aren't the best RTS gamers in the world should it change anything. In sports, many great athletes choose one sport over another. For example, Michael Jordan was a great basketball player and some of the same athleticism would transfer over to baseball, but it's not 1-1. I think having talent spread out among multiple games is important for ESPORTS. Obviously the best thing for sc2 would be to have the best talent, but I don't think that any pros or any fans of sc2 care right now. The only people that really care about scbw players switching over are those who don't want them to switch over. It would be great to have jaedong, flash, bisu for sure, but I will enjoy watching Nestea, MVP, and MC instead.

In the end, I don't understand the point of this article. So Top level bw players haven't switched over and so the best players in sc2 are mid level bw players. Ok, and?

Your point as quoted is

I am saying that there are 300 current pros and semi-pros that have the potential to come in and dominate SC2 at any moment, with a latency of a few months from the day they switch. Among this group there are a notable few that CRUSH any other players in terms of raw talent and/or work ethic and/or ability to learn. This knowledge cheapens any form of competition I see right now, no matter how much I try to enjoy the games.


If the Top 500 football(american) players suddenly switched to soccer, we suddenly would forget the names of the current best soccer players (assuming the transfer of skills is the same as bw/sc2, which it's close enough). Yes that's true, but that doesn't make me think "Oh geez, I don't like soccer because the best athletes are playing american football so I should just watch american football instead". They are different games and while they are related, no one should ever see an "elephant in the room". When I talk to casual fans of watching sc2 I don't say "man, this would be so much better if flash was playing", take sc2 as it is and enjoy it, without any elephants.


...Are you serious? You think that a sport that's only really played in two countries has the best athletes on the planet and the athletes of a sport that's by far the most popular on the planet are inferior? Do you ACTUALLY think this?

Do you not realize that it's an analogy. Can you ACTUALLY not perceive that? Or is it to hard.


Wow, really? I totally missed that. I mean, it makes absolutely no sense, but now that I know it's an analogy it's alright.
http://na.op.gg/summoner/userName=FLABREZU
HQuality
Profile Joined October 2009
2682 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-05-12 06:02:29
May 12 2011 06:01 GMT
#252
it's just too fat
yo btw tsl3 semifinals was no ex-scbw progamers at all for example
No carpal tunnel no skill
vrok
Profile Joined August 2009
Sweden2541 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-05-12 06:04:39
May 12 2011 06:03 GMT
#253
This wasn't obvious since forever? You have a paragraph just to answer what the point is, but I fail to see one. It's just "I'm unable to enjoy these games because of x", where x in this case might as well be that it rains in the rainforest.
"Starcraft 2 very easy game" - White-Ra
Probulous
Profile Blog Joined March 2011
Australia3894 Posts
May 12 2011 06:03 GMT
#254
On May 12 2011 15:00 Anzekay wrote:
I have to wonder, why is it that we so often talk about how exciting SC2 will be when BW players switch over, rather than just talking about how exciting it will be when the current SC2 pros get better and better?


Because BW is better and will always be better in every single way...Apparently.

It really annoys me that there is pervasive snide superiority of BW supporters. I love BW, played for years but that doesn't mean I can't appreciate SC2 for what it is.
"Dude has some really interesting midgame switches that I wouldn't have expected. "I violated your house" into "HIHO THE DAIRY OH!" really threw me. You don't usually expect children's poetry harass as a follow up " - AmericanUmlaut
JIJIyO
Profile Blog Joined January 2009
Canada1957 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-05-12 06:04:37
May 12 2011 06:03 GMT
#255
Good shit Intrigue and Hot_Bid. Nice article.

And to people saying SC2 is just one year old, and SC had 10 years to develop, you have to consider the fact on HOW the game grew. The first year of pro SC people were living off cup noodles, sleeping on the floor, used their own winnings just to keep the team alive, etc to play this game. There was no system in place for pro SC when it first came out, and because of this the games were obviously worse compared to the games now. Despite being a different game, SC2 had the basis of SC to build on with team houses, training, etc. Please consider this before using those arguments.
KT_Violet
sickoota
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
Canada918 Posts
May 12 2011 06:04 GMT
#256
Regarding Nada, it definitely bears mentioning that he is rocking sc2 while going to university. He was approaching mediocore when he left BW, and he is probably the most consistent Korean sc2 pro despite getting a degree at the same time...
I could spend a while with that smile
Thanatos1001
Profile Joined December 2010
Australia16 Posts
May 12 2011 06:04 GMT
#257
Fantastic read. Enjoyable, thought out, and easy to read. :D
"I shut my eyes in order to see." - Paul Gauguin
fantomex
Profile Joined June 2009
United States313 Posts
May 12 2011 06:04 GMT
#258
Your argument is schizophrenic.

Are you saying the Kobe's and Jordan's are still playing BW? Or are you saying every starter in the NBA is still playing BW?

One is obvious and the other is ridiculous.
Replay or GTFO
Rihtari
Profile Joined April 2011
Germany14 Posts
May 12 2011 06:05 GMT
#259
Nicely written article, thank you!

I fully agree that the relatively young SC2 scene is still in a very early stage and it, kind of, reminds me of how BW started out in Korea (and in the 'west', that is). All players are still experimenting what works for them (with the result of, in comparison to BW matches and their nowadays relatively static character (my personal impression!), many interesting things and builds happening). As soon as all the professional players out there, however, go the next step and fine-tune their micro abilities, I can see SC2 being even more watchable than BW ever was - simply because SC2 contains a lesser extent of, in my opinion, less watchable macro (don't get me wrong: this is not meant as SC2>BW or BW>SC2 or anything else, I see (and watch) them both simply as something completely different).

That being said, current top BW gamers might have the advantage of better micro and better multitasking abilities in general, but I certainly think that the SC2 scene will eventually reach this point as well.
Eeeegor
Profile Joined April 2005
Australia809 Posts
May 12 2011 06:06 GMT
#260
Great write up - thanks for putting the time into this!
Day9 Made Me Do It
Prev 1 11 12 13 14 15 326 Next
Please log in or register to reply.
Live Events Refresh
WardiTV Invitational
12:00
Christmas Eve Games
SHIN vs Percival
Creator vs Scarlett
WardiTV1276
Rex130
Liquipedia
[ Submit Event ]
Live Streams
Refresh
StarCraft 2
Lowko514
mouzStarbuck 142
Rex 130
Livibee 93
trigger 36
StarCraft: Brood War
Britney 52301
Sea 13820
Bisu 2126
Horang2 1972
Aegong 1640
Larva 730
Hyun 729
Stork 446
actioN 408
Soma 394
[ Show more ]
firebathero 362
Mini 335
Shuttle 304
Snow 295
hero 262
BeSt 237
ggaemo 197
Rush 196
JYJ 159
Barracks 86
Pusan 57
PianO 42
ToSsGirL 35
sas.Sziky 34
Movie 33
HiyA 32
Shinee 29
sorry 28
soO 25
Noble 18
Terrorterran 17
GoRush 14
Sacsri 13
scan(afreeca) 13
zelot 12
JulyZerg 9
SilentControl 8
Dota 2
XcaliburYe1177
syndereN508
League of Legends
rGuardiaN131
Counter-Strike
zeus1741
Super Smash Bros
Mew2King106
Other Games
singsing2124
hiko427
Happy323
Hui .275
crisheroes154
XaKoH 97
BRAT_OK 33
Organizations
StarCraft: Brood War
lovetv 8
StarCraft 2
Blizzard YouTube
StarCraft: Brood War
BSLTrovo
sctven
[ Show 14 non-featured ]
StarCraft 2
• Light_VIP 15
• AfreecaTV YouTube
• intothetv
• Kozan
• IndyKCrew
• LaughNgamezSOOP
• Migwel
• sooper7s
StarCraft: Brood War
• BSLYoutube
• STPLYoutube
• ZZZeroYoutube
Dota 2
• WagamamaTV1756
League of Legends
• Jankos4572
• Nemesis1990
Upcoming Events
Replay Cast
18h 23m
WardiTV Invitational
21h 23m
ByuN vs Solar
Clem vs Classic
Cure vs herO
Reynor vs MaxPax
Replay Cast
2 days
Sparkling Tuna Cup
3 days
Krystianer vs TBD
TriGGeR vs SKillous
Percival vs TBD
ByuN vs Nicoract
Replay Cast
4 days
Wardi Open
4 days
Liquipedia Results

Completed

Proleague 2025-12-22
WardiTV 2025
META Madness #9

Ongoing

C-Race Season 1
IPSL Winter 2025-26
KCM Race Survival 2025 Season 4
BSL Season 21
Slon Tour Season 2
CSL Season 19: Qualifier 2
eXTREMESLAND 2025
SL Budapest Major 2025
ESL Impact League Season 8
BLAST Rivals Fall 2025
IEM Chengdu 2025
PGL Masters Bucharest 2025
Thunderpick World Champ.
CS Asia Championships 2025
ESL Pro League S22

Upcoming

CSL 2025 WINTER (S19)
BSL 21 Non-Korean Championship
Acropolis #4
IPSL Spring 2026
Bellum Gens Elite Stara Zagora 2026
HSC XXVIII
Big Gabe Cup #3
OSC Championship Season 13
Nations Cup 2026
ESL Pro League Season 23
PGL Cluj-Napoca 2026
IEM Kraków 2026
BLAST Bounty Winter 2026
BLAST Bounty Winter Qual
TLPD

1. ByuN
2. TY
3. Dark
4. Solar
5. Stats
6. Nerchio
7. sOs
8. soO
9. INnoVation
10. Elazer
1. Rain
2. Flash
3. EffOrt
4. Last
5. Bisu
6. Soulkey
7. Mini
8. Sharp
Sidebar Settings...

Advertising | Privacy Policy | Terms Of Use | Contact Us

Original banner artwork: Jim Warren
The contents of this webpage are copyright © 2025 TLnet. All Rights Reserved.