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On May 12 2011 14:44 tredogz wrote:
Very good article... and you seem to know way more than I do about Starcraft.... so I will not bother to argue any points. I do not agree, there will be no dominating influx of players from the BW community. That is like saying, NFL players are going to come and destroy your local high school football team... if I use your weak analogy. This is not the reality. It is not going to be the reality. But good article.
But that's the point of the OP. NFL bench-warmers WILL come stomp the high school team if the high school starts offering salaries comparable to what NFL stars would earn. This is exactly the phenomenon going on in the SC2 scene right now. It's weird that you say this is not the reality when it's already happened.
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On May 12 2011 14:42 GolemMadness wrote:Show nested quote +On May 12 2011 14:37 KWik-E wrote:
I feel like the point of this article is to belittle the achievements of the SC2 champions. I feel like the article doesn't address the fact that most of these people who have switched over after having relatively unsuccessful BW careers most likely approached this new game with a work ethic and mind set that they most likely didn't have in their mediocre BW experience. "In fact, the standards have already lowered for some big names: In his TSL interview, (T)MVP states that he'd "rather play Starcraft 2 for fun, instead of [focus] on achievements". (P)TesteR and (Z)FruitDealer left their first team oGs (where they were known as oGsSKS and oGsCool, respectively) only a couple months after beta to "enjoy SC2 as freely as possible." What does it say about the scene then, when a bottom-tier burnout from Brood War on a relaxed practice regimen still wins the GSL?"
To me, MVP statement sounds more like a cop out after he got beat by foreigners, something that may have hurt his pride a bit. Secondly, look at the success Tester and Fruitdealer have had, it appears their new practice regiments have paid off recently.
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Super awesome writeup, love Final Edits!!
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On May 12 2011 14:45 Jibba wrote:Show nested quote +On May 12 2011 14:38 Tosho wrote:
S class gameplay is not born overnight, and to say so is ridiculing the BW competition that has evolved over a decade now. I agree with everything in your post, but I'm highlighting this to put out one little theory: S-class doesn't exist in SC2 yet. I think inconsistency by the best players shows that.
Possibly true, but the 'top-tier' of SC2 has been pretty constantly MC-MVP-Nestea for quite some time now. Yeah, they occasionally drop early in leagues, but one of them wins, and even Flash/JD were absent from the last Starleague.
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On May 12 2011 14:40 thesundowners wrote:Show nested quote +On May 12 2011 14:26 FawkingGoomba wrote:
It does because the people who are currently at the top of SC2 are not (relatively) good at RTS. It's not that what they do isn't entertaining, it's just not (relatively) impressive.
And what BW players do isn't (relatively) impressive compared to the miracle of human flight, what exactly is your point here? Why aren't people allowed to just admire SC2 play on it's own merits?
Amazing first post
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On May 12 2011 14:37 KWik-E wrote:
I feel like the point of this article is to belittle the achievements of the SC2 champions. I feel like the article doesn't address the fact that most of these people who have switched over after having relatively unsuccessful BW careers most likely approached this new game with a work ethic and mind set that they most likely didn't have in their mediocre BW experience.
^^
This reflects my thoughts about the article. Just because they aren't the best RTS gamers in the world should it change anything. In sports, many great athletes choose one sport over another. For example, Michael Jordan was a great basketball player and some of the same athleticism would transfer over to baseball, but it's not 1-1. I think having talent spread out among multiple games is important for ESPORTS. Obviously the best thing for sc2 would be to have the best talent, but I don't think that any pros or any fans of sc2 care right now. The only people that really care about scbw players switching over are those who don't want them to switch over. It would be great to have jaedong, flash, bisu for sure, but I will enjoy watching Nestea, MVP, and MC instead.
In the end, I don't understand the point of this article. So Top level bw players haven't switched over and so the best players in sc2 are mid level bw players. Ok, and?
Your point as quoted is
I am saying that there are 300 current pros and semi-pros that have the potential to come in and dominate SC2 at any moment, with a latency of a few months from the day they switch. Among this group there are a notable few that CRUSH any other players in terms of raw talent and/or work ethic and/or ability to learn. This knowledge cheapens any form of competition I see right now, no matter how much I try to enjoy the games.
If the Top 500 football(american) players suddenly switched to soccer, we suddenly would forget the names of the current best soccer players (assuming the transfer of skills is the same as bw/sc2, which it's close enough). Yes that's true, but that doesn't make me think "Oh geez, I don't like soccer because the best athletes are playing american football so I should just watch american football instead". They are different games and while they are related, no one should ever see an "elephant in the room". When I talk to casual fans of watching sc2 I don't say "man, this would be so much better if flash was playing", take sc2 as it is and enjoy it, without any elephants.
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On May 12 2011 14:36 BisuDagger wrote:Show nested quote +On May 12 2011 14:27 Lowspark wrote:
Your points are not valid. There are two things that completely change this game from brood war. One is multiple building select and multiple unit select) and the second is balance changes.
Brood War hasn't been updated for what, 10 years? It hasn't been updated because as all games due outside of the pro scene, it fades out. Why do BW practice teams have such a regimented schedule? there really isn't such a large ladder out there for them so they have to play tons of custom games. Currently there are still highly competitive ladder games going on in sc2 as opposed to sc:BW.
Why was APM so important and why were mechanics stressed so hard in sc:BW? because macro wasn't that easy. you didn't have 10 barracks hot keyed or 6 warpgates. You had to manually macro all your buildings, meaning a 300 apm player would always win against a 100 apm player. your actions were highly needed to win games and players like JD and Flash have the best mechanics. In sc2, you can sit comfortably around 150 apm and do everything a 300 apm BW player does. MC, ripping nerd apart is not the fastest player, but maybe at the time he was the smartest player. Because the game is easier in terms of mechanics, theory is more important.
The game is still being balanced, but i doubt any pro players are truly thinking about if their spell casters are going to lose a spell or such, they just play. The khadarian amulet was a bit strong and needed to be nerfed slightly, and it will likely come back into the game at some point as maybe a +15 energy instead of +25. The game is still being balanced meaning that new strategies are being formed. The game is a little over a year old from beta launch, and BW is what 12 years old? I think stratagies have been figured out in that game and it really does come down to the better player at this point.
The game is young and you calling out the winners as only being winners because BW still exist is really shameful. The game is different, and the players are different. There is no elephant in the room because those "BW A teamers" you love so much are still in BW. And former pros such as nada, july, boxer, and rainbow are all loosing to players like MC in sc2.
Also Fruitdealer was described by tasteosis as an up and coming bw player who struggled due to family issues. NesTea was a very good 2v2 BW player but terrible at 1v1. And MC was the suicide toss and only won one televised games. They have been fairly accurate in their depictions of these players.
When this game is 12 years old and sc3 comes out, you will likely write the same article about how players like MKP, Leenock, and other young players now switched over and when the real dudes switch over all the players will lose.
This article is a farce I know APM is discussed a lot. But here's the side I take. Take any smart BW player with 300 apm and throw them into SC2. Yes there is significantly less macro apm to be proficient at building. Now imagine those players being able to move so fast that they can focus the 150 extra apm from BW war on battles/harass/and setting themselves up strategically. To me, that's far scarier. And these top BW players can think strategically. You said that MC has theory down and that is why he can be a solid player with sc2. Well the top BW players have theory down and they can play twice as fast paced. With less actions to handle, this just allows them to become even more creative.
This is what I was talking about with my friends. I have found that macro in SC2 is a much more potent weapon than micro is. Battles in SC2 are much more fast paced, rendering armies dead in a matter of seconds. The answer? Make more units. Sure there specific units designed to take down specific strategies (I'm looking at you, immortals) but the short time frame and the sheer volume of units in macro games makes it hard to micro individual units for max potential as BW players can. Think about it, if BW players switch to SC2, with its easier interface, imagine the things they can pull off with their monstrous micro abilities.
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On May 12 2011 14:46 Firkraag8 wrote:
Great read, although I cannot agree with you being 100% sure that JD/Flash and other top-level BW pros would totally dominate as we just don't know. I reserve saying stuff like that for when/if it actually happens. For every day that passes the current SC2 pro's will keep getting better at this game, the window for BW pros to switch and instantly dominate isn't going to stay open forever.
The main thing we gotta think about is not just their talent - but it's the amount of practice they put it to make their talent a tangible reality.
Those statements are made in assumption that if they are to switch to SC2, they would carry over their work ethic that they had in BW.
That's why they'd own SC2 scene.
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Great writeup. Really enjoyed it.
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Canada5155 Posts
On May 12 2011 14:27 Lowspark wrote:
Your points are not valid. There are two things that completely change this game from brood war. One is multiple building select and multiple unit select) and the second is balance changes.
Brood War hasn't been updated for what, 10 years? It hasn't been updated because as all games due outside of the pro scene, it fades out. Why do BW practice teams have such a regimented schedule? there really isn't such a large ladder out there for them so they have to play tons of custom games. Currently there are still highly competitive ladder games going on in sc2 as opposed to sc:BW.
Are you serious? You're serious, right?
Korean ladders are still very much teeming with bw players.
"What's fish/brain server?" -You
I don't think you know what you're talking about.
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Great read. How long is the reign of the top progamer in brood war? maybe 3-4 years before a new up and comer overtakes them? maybe less? it's the younger generation that is learning the game of brood war and starcraft 2, and what they choose to do with their raw talent, that will define the next decade imo. Jaedong's like ~20, 21 right? We can look at that and say Ah, he has so many years left to dominate starcraft 2, where there's great prize money if he chooses.
But then you also have to say, Ah, there are so many 17 year olds out there aspiring to become the next JD, and with starcraft 2 tournaments that are so accessible, won't that sway their talent? Idk.
Maybe the face of competitive gaming isn't what we're dreaming of. Maybe it's not going to be salaries for everyone, etc. and monies out the kazoo. But people will continue to make their living doing it, and brood war tournaments are far fewer than Starcraft 2. So what if they get crushed by the first wave of the "immigrant sc1-A teamers". Then the people playing now won't win money, because Koreans A-teamers are winning it (although regionalization complicates this). So they will get better if they want to continue playing professionally. Or they will quit. In my eyes, it's a great transition phase. 10 years for brood war, only 1 year of sc2 has passed. Hopefully the sc1-scene jumps ship quicker so the sc2 scene will improve. 
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On May 12 2011 14:46 Probulous wrote:Show nested quote +On May 12 2011 14:33 BadWithNames wrote:
So you liken SC2 to high school football, call it's competition a farce, it's players bad, even lay in nice little dig at SC2 having more luck, bo wins, and a-move armies. All this article really manages to do is attempt to quantitatively prove that BroodWar players practice harder, make more money, play better and have a better overall scene than sc2, as such is still a completely divisive. It's not even well formed for a giant what if scenario as any objective opinion is cancelled out by aforementioned back handed insults. It just drips too much of BW elitism. This really shines through when you make the argument that the top BW players won't switch because of they make so much money then need to basically say at the end "but if they did they'd kick your players asses." I usually love liquid articles, but to go after one year game with the might that is the Korean Broodwar industry is forum trash. If anyones knowledge of the Broodwar scene and it's theoretical potential interaction into SC2 is cheapening SC2 for you I wonder how those people make it through life where tons of theoretical potential interactions can cheapen everything.
Broodwar realized a potential no one ever saw coming, and too many of it's fans spend too much effort making sure people "know" SC2 has a mountain to climb, questioning if it can manage it at all, while occasionally declaring that it can't or won't, often sighting it's impossibilities of success unless the Broodwar pros switch. I'm probably, and hopefully, missing something but that is pretty much all I see here.
There's another giant elephant in the room that became a giant elephant because new SC2 fans (particularly on this site) were welcomed with "it's not broodwar" and "sc2 fans are idiots" and as such took the next logical step, stopped really giving a damn what happens with BW and KeSPA since games are practically everywhere. How an article like this bridges that divide I don't know...I'm an idiot. You sir are NOT an idiot. I get the same condescension vibe from this article. It is one thing to say that BW pros have a much higher potential skill level. It is something completely different to say that everything SC2 is a farce and cheapened because it's not BW. It is certainly no way to bring people across to BW. It just paints BW supporters are snobby elites. If you enjoy SC2, enjoy it and don't listen to the naysayers. This article is divisive and makes no relevant point.
This is exactly how I feel about the overall tone of this article. There is almost no point to this article, and the entire thing is laced with sensationalist expressions and sweeping inferences that just bug me to no end =/
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I have no knowledge of BW in the slightest, but it's really interesting to read about stuff like this. It makes me think about other games that have a split fan base when a sequel comes out.
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What i got from this article is that the competition is only going to get better as BW pros start to move over in the next year or two.
Looking forward to it!
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On May 12 2011 14:46 Probulous wrote:Show nested quote +On May 12 2011 14:33 BadWithNames wrote:
So you liken SC2 to high school football, call it's competition a farce, it's players bad, even lay in nice little dig at SC2 having more luck, bo wins, and a-move armies. All this article really manages to do is attempt to quantitatively prove that BroodWar players practice harder, make more money, play better and have a better overall scene than sc2, as such is still a completely divisive. It's not even well formed for a giant what if scenario as any objective opinion is cancelled out by aforementioned back handed insults. It just drips too much of BW elitism. This really shines through when you make the argument that the top BW players won't switch because of they make so much money then need to basically say at the end "but if they did they'd kick your players asses." I usually love liquid articles, but to go after one year game with the might that is the Korean Broodwar industry is forum trash. If anyones knowledge of the Broodwar scene and it's theoretical potential interaction into SC2 is cheapening SC2 for you I wonder how those people make it through life where tons of theoretical potential interactions can cheapen everything.
Broodwar realized a potential no one ever saw coming, and too many of it's fans spend too much effort making sure people "know" SC2 has a mountain to climb, questioning if it can manage it at all, while occasionally declaring that it can't or won't, often sighting it's impossibilities of success unless the Broodwar pros switch. I'm probably, and hopefully, missing something but that is pretty much all I see here.
There's another giant elephant in the room that became a giant elephant because new SC2 fans (particularly on this site) were welcomed with "it's not broodwar" and "sc2 fans are idiots" and as such took the next logical step, stopped really giving a damn what happens with BW and KeSPA since games are practically everywhere. How an article like this bridges that divide I don't know...I'm an idiot. You sir are NOT an idiot. I get the same condescension vibe from this article. It is one thing to say that BW pros have a much higher potential skill level. It is something completely different to say that everything SC2 is a farce and cheapened because it's not BW. It is certainly no way to bring people across to BW. It just paints BW supporters are snobby elites. If you enjoy SC2, enjoy it and don't listen to the naysayers. This article is divisive and makes no relevant point.
Phew, glad some of us are on the same page... I didn't find it a particularly good read.
Some of the stats posted seem shallow and altogether irrelevant because the number of games played don't so much so suggest that a lot of these players were bad in BW, but that they never seriously played the game... Ace is listed as a success story with his 2-0, 100% win ratio. The fuck? Even if there's more than the stats in terms of their success, all you list is the stats to show how unsuccessful they were, so if one guy goes 2-0 and leaves, he's a success, but the dude who goes 2-3 is failure. They played a handful of games... It doesn't mean much. If you used something other than limited stats it might be conveyed better.
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Very nice post
very interesting too see the players background since i didnt play BW myself
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Excellent read and glad to see FE's aren't completely done for. I look forward to the future of SC2, and while you may be correct (something i noticed a month or two ago when digging through the TLPD as well) about the relative 'quality' of the current dominating pros, this means that while as fun as SC2 is to watch now, it's only going to get better. I just hope blizzard's patches never make such a drastic change that it actually hurts the meta game of sc2 to the point where pros don't feel it's stable enough to put their livelihood on it.
For now, I'm just excited to see new innovations seemingly every GSL and GSTL, as well as seeing legends I grew up watching in BW get a second chance at fame. I literally came to tears when I saw boxer get knocked down to Code A, and subsequently when he didn't make it to ro8 in Code A. Watching NaDa succeed to a consistent degree in every GSL while on a minimal practice schedule and distracted with university studies leaves me great hope for when he's done and he can focus on this game, if we'll once again see the emergence of the true Tornado Terran.
I don't think it's a bad thing what we have here, and it's truly exciting to see how much is going on in the SC2 scene around the world from GSL, TSL, NASL to the IPL. Seeing western teams get sponsors and team houses is something I truly am excited about. I do think it is fallacy though, as you have conveyed, to think that our current champions, are at the pinnacle of this game, because there's just still so much more, and so many better players that we have yet to see, and that is just down right exciting to think about for the future.
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thank you for saying what needed to be said in a clear and well thought out form. I really enjoyed reading it. ^.^
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On May 12 2011 14:35 Flowjo wrote:Show nested quote +On May 12 2011 14:32 sc14s wrote:On May 12 2011 13:52 Zrana wrote:
You didn't mention NaDa or July as much as you should have. Both amazing at sc1 (capable of beating flash/JD at times iirc but not rocking SC2 as hard as you say they should)
Different game, different skills. Mechanics mean slightly less, strategy slightly more. Sure some is transferable, but this really seems like more of the same tired old BW was better whine.
You say that there are hundreds of players who could come in and dominate SC2 at any moment. Well why haven't they? There's nothing to stop them taking the GSL, TSL and NASL prize pools. More than enough incentive.
The answer is that SC2 is still being figured out, and it takes a different sort of player to excel at a young game than a game where the rules have already been written.
Also you imply that SC2 is invalid as a sport until we have some godllike figure like Flash. Was football invalid before Beckham, Formula 1 before Schumacher?
No, they were still fun to watch. (well i dont like football but lots do) ^ what he said not what he said.....2010 Nada or July would not be "capable of beating flash/JD". This entire post actually has alot of misinformation.
actually, yes what he said.. i can have my own opinion <.< and on top of that he isnt stating misinformation just an opinion.. which he can also have.. you know the difference right? all he was saying is SC2 is enjoyable REGARDLESS of that fact that the "best" havent swapped yet (if they will ever).
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On May 12 2011 14:47 Slow Motion wrote:Show nested quote +On May 12 2011 14:44 tredogz wrote:
Very good article... and you seem to know way more than I do about Starcraft.... so I will not bother to argue any points. I do not agree, there will be no dominating influx of players from the BW community. That is like saying, NFL players are going to come and destroy your local high school football team... if I use your weak analogy. This is not the reality. It is not going to be the reality. But good article. But that's the point of the OP. NFL bench-warmers WILL come stomp the high school team if the high school starts offering salaries comparable to what NFL stars would earn. This is exactly the phenomenon going on in the SC2 scene right now. It's weird that you say this is not the reality when it's already happened.
if in your example nfl bench warmers = mid tier players in BW and high school team = sc2, then you are stupid because in the article it states that mid tier players in BW dont earn that much money and the money they would get if they STOMPED sc2 would be incomparable.
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EPT
