EPTThe Elephant in the Room - Page 9
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KWik-E
United States72 Posts
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SenorChang
Australia4729 Posts
My prediction: there will be another influx of MVP-level (A-class) pros into SC2 after deals fall through during the next August free agency. With the announcement of Heart of the Swarm for Spring 2012, it's likely they will decide to get a head start. If this turns out to be true that would be awesome :D Would love to see some top tier BW players comin over. | ||
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Barca
United States418 Posts
Great article | ||
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Tosho
Australia498 Posts
I think its a bit harsh to call the level of competition in SC2 a farce, sure I agree with you the scene isnt nearly as competitive as BW, but it is still competitive. Was BW this fierce one year into its life cycle? Now wait a second before you jump onto that point. SC2 is wholly set up to take on the same values of practice and competition as BW, and I believe that within a year or two's time SC2 will be well on its way to coming close to the holy grail that is BW. Both naturally from within its own player base and injected from BW ethics and player transfers. That however does not invalidate players accomplishments now. For all intents and purposes the S class players of BW might as well not exist to SC2 players. Its so easy to say what if and throw Flash and Jaedongs name around saying they would wipe the floor with anyone they come across when there is no guarantee they ever will. BW could continue on indefinitely, they could retire, the what if game is so easy to buy into. The players playing SC2 now have to face the reality of the competition they see now, and that means that yes its inferior to the BW competition, but there is this process of game learning and expansion that BW went through that SC2 needs to go through too. S class gameplay is not born overnight, and to say so is ridiculing the BW competition that has evolved over a decade now. | ||
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Asos217
United States7 Posts
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RoMGraViTy
United States314 Posts
This is also the first article in a very long time ive read in its entirety, and it brings back good memories. Nothing is truly as terrifying as looking into the eyes of an extremely pissed off Jaedong in a 45 minutes game, where sweat is pouring from his face from the sheer effort he is putting in. | ||
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Murderotica
Vatican City State2594 Posts
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GolemMadness
Canada11044 Posts
On May 12 2011 13:58 Klamity wrote: Great article. As an SC2 player, I am extremely interested in the potential of BW players. I really wish I was around for competitive BW. Also, how do you feel about the perceived skill ceiling difference between BW and SC2? You're not around... now? | ||
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Snaphoo
United States614 Posts
On May 12 2011 14:29 Enervate wrote: Yay a FE! I pretty much agree with this entirely. It's one of the reasons I just don't admire most of the SC2 players that much. The ones I support and like to see win are BW pros. And the foreigners that I like to see win are the ones training or who have trained in Korea, the Liquid guys and Idra basically. One thing I think the OP and a lot of people replying in this thread are ignoring is that SC2's macro mechanics are much easier to manage than BW, allowing strategy/tactics to differentiate players moreso than in BW, especially given the current flux of the metagame. Also, there are plenty of players like IMJunwi (Gyung Lak "Junwi" Park) who were more successful in BW than their SC2 comrades like IMNestea, but are now chobo compared to them. We'll see how things work out when BW pros start trickling in to SC2, but I think the OP is overestimating how well BW pros will do. Time will tell, though! | ||
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Diaspora
United States140 Posts
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thesundowners
Canada40 Posts
On May 12 2011 14:26 FawkingGoomba wrote: It does because the people who are currently at the top of SC2 are not (relatively) good at RTS. It's not that what they do isn't entertaining, it's just not (relatively) impressive. And what BW players do isn't (relatively) impressive compared to the miracle of human flight, what exactly is your point here? Why aren't people allowed to just admire SC2 play on it's own merits? | ||
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elementz
United States281 Posts
as you said come august there is a lot of BW lower A teamers B teamers that will think that they can make it big in SC2 and just leave BW. | ||
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EchOne
United States2906 Posts
On May 12 2011 14:27 Lowspark wrote: Your points are not valid. There are two things that completely change this game from brood war. One is multiple building select and multiple unit select) and the second is balance changes. Brood War hasn't been updated for what, 10 years? It hasn't been updated because as all games due outside of the pro scene, it fades out. Why do BW practice teams have such a regimented schedule? there really isn't such a large ladder out there for them so they have to play tons of custom games. Currently there are still highly competitive ladder games going on in sc2 as opposed to sc:BW. Why was APM so important and why were mechanics stressed so hard in sc:BW? because macro wasn't that easy. you didn't have 10 barracks hot keyed or 6 warpgates. You had to manually macro all your buildings, meaning a 300 apm player would always win against a 100 apm player. your actions were highly needed to win games and players like JD and Flash have the best mechanics. In sc2, you can sit comfortably around 150 apm and do everything a 300 apm BW player does. MC, ripping nerd apart is not the fastest player, but maybe at the time he was the smartest player. Because the game is easier in terms of mechanics, theory is more important. The game is still being balanced, but i doubt any pro players are truly thinking about if their spell casters are going to lose a spell or such, they just play. The khadarian amulet was a bit strong and needed to be nerfed slightly, and it will likely come back into the game at some point as maybe a +15 energy instead of +25. The game is still being balanced meaning that new strategies are being formed. The game is a little over a year old from beta launch, and BW is what 12 years old? I think stratagies have been figured out in that game and it really does come down to the better player at this point. The game is young and you calling out the winners as only being winners because BW still exist is really shameful. The game is different, and the players are different. There is no elephant in the room because those "BW A teamers" you love so much are still in BW. And former pros such as nada, july, boxer, and rainbow are all loosing to players like MC in sc2. Also Fruitdealer was described by tasteosis as an up and coming bw player who struggled due to family issues. NesTea was a very good 2v2 BW player but terrible at 1v1. And MC was the suicide toss and only won one televised games. They have been fairly accurate in their depictions of these players. When this game is 12 years old and sc3 comes out, you will likely write the same article about how players like MKP, Leenock, and other young players now switched over and when the real dudes switch over all the players will lose. This article is a farce BW is not outside the pro scene, it is the pro scene. There are 3 large ladders for BW players, 2 of which are specifically for Koreans. There are absolutely no 100 apm players actually competing in BW, so any comparisons to such hypothetical players don't shed light on actual situations. Everyone plays 2 or 3 times that quickly, and even beyond that point faster players like by.hero don't perform as well as slower, smarter players like Stork. BW has never been completely figured out despite its last balance patch being over a decade ago. I personally stopped following it a year ago, and when I started following it again, the entire TvZ dynamic was wildly different with mid-game mech switch, mass mines, mass queen play, etc. I don't feel that the OP is very productive or enlightening, but I don't want people arguing against it to do so with completely misunderstandings. | ||
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EchelonTee
United States5242 Posts
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PresenceSc2
Australia4032 Posts
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Ryuu314
United States12679 Posts
Honestly, all these newbies to the SC scene seriously have to go and just watch TBLS games and read their interviews. The dedication these guys put into the game is unreal. They are honestly out of this world when it comes to gaming. For them (especially JD  ), practicing 10+ hours a day is just another day at work.And seriously, if you have doubts, go freaking youtube a FPVOD of one of these guys. You will be absolutely blown away. I remember the first time I watched a Bisu FPVOD, I was just incredibly amazed at the precision and speed, which was too the point where I couldn't tell what was going on. Then I watched the regular VOD and not only was the mechanics impeccable, but the strategy behind it all was mind-blowing too. You honestly can't understand how strong these guys are unless you've followed the scene and/or have a decent knowledge/background of BW. | ||
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Mordiford
4448 Posts
On May 12 2011 14:39 Diaspora wrote: Extremely good article. Better yet, the amount of research done in order to support your argument. The amount of research? The statistics are displayed in a manner that don't make sense? How can you list Ace as a success in BW because of his 100% win ratio? He played 2 games. | ||
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rickybobby
United States405 Posts
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GolemMadness
Canada11044 Posts
On May 12 2011 14:37 KWik-E wrote: I feel like the point of this article is to belittle the achievements of the SC2 champions. I feel like the article doesn't address the fact that most of these people who have switched over after having relatively unsuccessful BW careers most likely approached this new game with a work ethic and mind set that they most likely didn't have in their mediocre BW experience. "In fact, the standards have already lowered for some big names: In his TSL interview, (T)MVP states that he'd "rather play Starcraft 2 for fun, instead of [focus] on achievements". (P)TesteR and (Z)FruitDealer left their first team oGs (where they were known as oGsSKS and oGsCool, respectively) only a couple months after beta to "enjoy SC2 as freely as possible." What does it say about the scene then, when a bottom-tier burnout from Brood War on a relaxed practice regimen still wins the GSL?" | ||
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Slow Motion
United States6960 Posts
They were bad (we still love them though and it was amazing every time they managed to win over even the lower tier players). We don't want to put these guys in the same group as MC or MVP because they're are legends, but the hard truth is that their current skill is just as poor. | ||
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