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On May 12 2011 14:27 Lowspark wrote:
Your points are not valid. There are two things that completely change this game from brood war. One is multiple building select and multiple unit select) and the second is balance changes.
Brood War hasn't been updated for what, 10 years? It hasn't been updated because as all games due outside of the pro scene, it fades out. Why do BW practice teams have such a regimented schedule? there really isn't such a large ladder out there for them so they have to play tons of custom games. Currently there are still highly competitive ladder games going on in sc2 as opposed to sc:BW.
Why was APM so important and why were mechanics stressed so hard in sc:BW? because macro wasn't that easy. you didn't have 10 barracks hot keyed or 6 warpgates. You had to manually macro all your buildings, meaning a 300 apm player would always win against a 100 apm player. your actions were highly needed to win games and players like JD and Flash have the best mechanics. In sc2, you can sit comfortably around 150 apm and do everything a 300 apm BW player does. MC, ripping nerd apart is not the fastest player, but maybe at the time he was the smartest player. Because the game is easier in terms of mechanics, theory is more important.
If APM was all that mattered, people like  hero would be the best...so yeah. JD and Flash are the best because they are geniuses of the game and RTS, not because they have superior mechanics.
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@oXoCube
As far as i can tell, he is saying that the quality of competition in Starcraft 2 at the moment is pretty mediocre.
That said, this is going to hurt quite a number of SC2boys' pride, you have my respect for coming out and say it like it is 
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I'm in awe of how well written this was, well done Intrigue. It's usually hard for me to focus my way through every single word of someones threads/posts/etc but this one made me want more and more, just awsome job I couldn't agree more with you and I also learned some things from your writeup, awsome awsome awsome! :D
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On May 12 2011 14:41 EchelonTee wrote:
I sort of agree that the competition at the top is sort of a farce... top "pros" still make tons of errors that should be unforgivable at a pro level
And how often did this happen in BW, too?
I'm almost a little shocked that a long-running BW site can bring up arguments like this when even the BW legends, if we watch their older, famous games now, are relatively terrible compared to games of today - yet we still consider them fantastic games on their own merit. Why isn't SC2 treated the same within the level of its own play?
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I'm pretty sure the Ace thing was a joke.
And honestly, the reason that the players never got too many games in the first place is because they didn't earn the right to play. If you can only play 5 players in a set, you're usually going to choose the best players. They weren't good enough to be sent out in a game.
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This is a great read, though if I'm interpreting your writeup correctly, I'm not entirely sure I understand the conclusion. The fact that the current lineup of pro sc2 players are (relatively bad) and that many other players have potential to dominate the game somehow cheapens SC2s value? Watching foreigners play BW in purely foreign tournaments hardly cheapened the value or the entertainment for me even though the Korean scene was dominant player wise.
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Very good article... and you seem to know way more than I do about Starcraft.... so I will not bother to argue any points. I do not agree, there will be no dominating influx of players from the BW community. That is like saying, NFL players are going to come and destroy your local high school football team... if I use your weak analogy. This is not the reality. It is not going to be the reality. But good article.
Ok, I have thought about it... and would like to submit an edit. The sport analogy was so weak.. it revealed a weakness in the entire argument. You say that the work ethic and skill of BW players will allow them to dominate SC2. However, this is speculation that is not supported by facts. It is like saying a Professional American football player would destroy a Professional real football (soccer) player. You are assuming the skill sets for BW are the same as that for SC2. American football players are fat strong dudes for the most part.. and football player (soccer) are fast fit dudes. Just because soccer players can run faster doesn't mean they would be any good at American Football. And the reverse is true. As a side note: Just because BW was only played in Korea for the most part there is a belief that only Korean SC2 players are better. This is simply not true. The community with the most players will most likely produce the best players, however if Starcraft 2 remains popular internationally ... there is NO advantage to Korean players, in fact I believe that they are at a disadvantage in the SC2 community as non-Korean players continue to set the standard for eSports and entertaining/innovative play.
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Also, the achievements of the people who were "above average" in their BW careers as listed aren't anything special, Rainbow has been getting crushed, Ace hasn't been doing anything special...
I don't see why you would put that in there as though those achievements suggest anything when they really don't...
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Although I believe what is said in the article I must also add that I thought its negative tone was pretty bad and seemed to belittle the current SC2 scene and players. And calling the competition a farce is just overly harsh. And then finally, "The Elephant in the Room"? More like "Beating the Dead Horse".
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not what he said.....2010 Nada or July would not be "capable of beating flash/JD". This entire post actually has alot of misinformation.
It's not misinformation, it's difference in opinion. Nada and July would certainly be capable of beating them. Perhaps not in the 50% winrate way, but they at least wouldn't be owned. Newer players get better than the older ones; it's just the way a sport (and metagame etc.) evolves over time. Nada and July are pretty old school while Jaedong and Flash are the new gen. Anyways, you can't compare two different gens together. Nada and July both dominated in their time; that's all that matters. After all, if Jaedong and Flash were in the same gen and were as good as they are today (absolute skill not comparable), you don't know if Nada and July would have worked harder to be better.
If APM was all that mattered, people like hero would be the best...so yeah. JD and Flash are the best because they are geniuses of the game and RTS, not because they have superior mechanics.
It's quite the understatement to say that they BW players don't need superior mechanics. Mechanics =/= APM btw.
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Excellent article, some blunt truths about it but I agreed with the vast majority of it
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On May 12 2011 14:40 EchOne wrote:Show nested quote +On May 12 2011 14:27 Lowspark wrote:
Your points are not valid. There are two things that completely change this game from brood war. One is multiple building select and multiple unit select) and the second is balance changes.
Brood War hasn't been updated for what, 10 years? It hasn't been updated because as all games due outside of the pro scene, it fades out. Why do BW practice teams have such a regimented schedule? there really isn't such a large ladder out there for them so they have to play tons of custom games. Currently there are still highly competitive ladder games going on in sc2 as opposed to sc:BW.
Why was APM so important and why were mechanics stressed so hard in sc:BW? because macro wasn't that easy. you didn't have 10 barracks hot keyed or 6 warpgates. You had to manually macro all your buildings, meaning a 300 apm player would always win against a 100 apm player. your actions were highly needed to win games and players like JD and Flash have the best mechanics. In sc2, you can sit comfortably around 150 apm and do everything a 300 apm BW player does. MC, ripping nerd apart is not the fastest player, but maybe at the time he was the smartest player. Because the game is easier in terms of mechanics, theory is more important.
The game is still being balanced, but i doubt any pro players are truly thinking about if their spell casters are going to lose a spell or such, they just play. The khadarian amulet was a bit strong and needed to be nerfed slightly, and it will likely come back into the game at some point as maybe a +15 energy instead of +25. The game is still being balanced meaning that new strategies are being formed. The game is a little over a year old from beta launch, and BW is what 12 years old? I think stratagies have been figured out in that game and it really does come down to the better player at this point.
The game is young and you calling out the winners as only being winners because BW still exist is really shameful. The game is different, and the players are different. There is no elephant in the room because those "BW A teamers" you love so much are still in BW. And former pros such as nada, july, boxer, and rainbow are all loosing to players like MC in sc2.
Also Fruitdealer was described by tasteosis as an up and coming bw player who struggled due to family issues. NesTea was a very good 2v2 BW player but terrible at 1v1. And MC was the suicide toss and only won one televised games. They have been fairly accurate in their depictions of these players.
When this game is 12 years old and sc3 comes out, you will likely write the same article about how players like MKP, Leenock, and other young players now switched over and when the real dudes switch over all the players will lose.
This article is a farce BW is not outside the pro scene, it is the pro scene. There are 3 large ladders for BW players, 2 of which are specifically for Koreans. There are absolutely no 100 apm players actually competing in BW, so any comparisons to such hypothetical players don't shed light on actual situations. Everyone plays 2 or 3 times that quickly, and even beyond that point faster players like by.hero don't perform as well as slower, smarter players like Stork. BW has never been completely figured out despite its last balance patch being over a decade ago. I personally stopped following it a year ago, and when I started following it again, the entire TvZ dynamic was wildly different with mid-game mech switch, mass mines, mass queen play, etc. I don't feel that the OP is very productive or enlightening, but I don't want people arguing against it to do so with completely misunderstandings.
I absolutely loved the article, written very nicely in a linear and rational way
But I gotta give credit to that opinion too though.. even though I wouldn't go so far as call the OP article a farce, but SC2 does have design flaws when it comes to competitive scene.
SC2 was made to make it more approachable and friendly to casual gamers - and that means it is going to have detrimental effects to the competitive gamers.
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United States22883 Posts
On May 12 2011 14:38 Tosho wrote:
S class gameplay is not born overnight, and to say so is ridiculing the BW competition that has evolved over a decade now.
I agree with everything in your post, but I'm highlighting this to put out one little theory: S-class doesn't exist in SC2 yet. I think inconsistency by the best players shows that.
On May 12 2011 14:44 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:Show nested quote +not what he said.....2010 Nada or July would not be "capable of beating flash/JD". This entire post actually has alot of misinformation. It's not misinformation, it's difference in opinion. Nada and July would certainly be capable of beating them. Perhaps not in the 50% winrate way, but they at least wouldn't be owned. Newer players get better than the older ones; it's just the way a sport (and metagame etc.) evolves over time. Nada and July are pretty old school while Jaedong and Flash are the new gen. Anyways, you can't compare two different gens together. Nada and July both dominated in their time; that's all that matters. After all, if Jaedong and Flash were in the same gen and were as good as they are today (absolute skill not comparable), you don't know if Nada and July would have worked harder to be better.
They're not talking about players in their prime, though. 2010 July/Boxer were bad and 2010 NaDa was meh.
I think people are underselling the mechanical aspect though. Think of this situation. July has his silly 24 mutalisks and is trying to harass with them. Will he be more disruptive with them in one group or with 2/3 groups attacking different ends of a base?
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On May 12 2011 14:33 BadWithNames wrote:
So you liken SC2 to high school football, call it's competition a farce, it's players bad, even lay in nice little dig at SC2 having more luck, bo wins, and a-move armies. All this article really manages to do is attempt to quantitatively prove that BroodWar players practice harder, make more money, play better and have a better overall scene than sc2, as such is still a completely divisive. It's not even well formed for a giant what if scenario as any objective opinion is cancelled out by aforementioned back handed insults. It just drips too much of BW elitism. This really shines through when you make the argument that the top BW players won't switch because of they make so much money then need to basically say at the end "but if they did they'd kick your players asses." I usually love liquid articles, but to go after one year game with the might that is the Korean Broodwar industry is forum trash. If anyones knowledge of the Broodwar scene and it's theoretical potential interaction into SC2 is cheapening SC2 for you I wonder how those people make it through life where tons of theoretical potential interactions can cheapen everything.
Broodwar realized a potential no one ever saw coming, and too many of it's fans spend too much effort making sure people "know" SC2 has a mountain to climb, questioning if it can manage it at all, while occasionally declaring that it can't or won't, often sighting it's impossibilities of success unless the Broodwar pros switch. I'm probably, and hopefully, missing something but that is pretty much all I see here.
There's another giant elephant in the room that became a giant elephant because new SC2 fans (particularly on this site) were welcomed with "it's not broodwar" and "sc2 fans are idiots" and as such took the next logical step, stopped really giving a damn what happens with BW and KeSPA since games are practically everywhere. How an article like this bridges that divide I don't know...I'm an idiot.
You sir are NOT an idiot.
I get the same condescension vibe from this article. It is one thing to say that BW pros have a much higher potential skill level. It is something completely different to say that everything SC2 is a farce and cheapened because it's not BW.
It is certainly no way to bring people across to BW. It just paints BW supporters are snobby elites. If you enjoy SC2, enjoy it and don't listen to the naysayers.
This article is divisive and makes no relevant point.
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That was a great writeup, and I completely agree.
On May 12 2011 14:40 EchOne wrote:
Everyone plays 2 or 3 times that quickly, and even beyond that point faster players like by.hero don't perform as well as slower, smarter players like Stork.
To be fair Stork's low APM works for him because he plays toss, it really wouldn't cut it as zerg.
On May 12 2011 13:58 Klamity wrote:
I really wish I was around for competitive BW.
You say that like its over.
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I cannot agree with you being 100% sure that JD/Flash and other top-level BW pros would totally dominate as we just don't know. I reserve saying stuff like that for when/if it actually happens. For every day that passes the current SC2 pro's will keep getting better at this game, the window for BW pros to switch and instantly dominate isn't going to stay open forever.
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On May 12 2011 14:18 Jibba wrote:
SNIP
YES FINALLY SOMEONE MAKES A POST ABOUT IT <3<3<3<3
I know Sc2 doesn't require as much APM, but that doesn't mean you have to slow yourself down so much, like it seems Artosis has done >.<
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I don't feel like this article is entirely correct. For one thing, BW skill does not directly transfer into sc2 skill. There's no bw reason why zergbong is better than tester, or why mc is better than nada.
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On May 12 2011 14:44 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:Show nested quote +not what he said.....2010 Nada or July would not be "capable of beating flash/JD". This entire post actually has alot of misinformation. It's not misinformation, it's difference in opinion. Nada and July would certainly be capable of beating them. Perhaps not in the 50% winrate way, but they at least wouldn't be owned. Newer players get better than the older ones; it's just the way a sport (and metagame etc.) evolves over time. Nada and July are pretty old school while Jaedong and Flash are the new gen. Anyways, you can't compare two different gens together. Nada and July both dominated in their time; that's all that matters. After all, if Jaedong and Flash were in the same gen and were as good as they are today (absolute skill not comparable), you don't know if Nada and July would have worked harder to be better. Show nested quote +If APM was all that mattered, people like hero would be the best...so yeah. JD and Flash are the best because they are geniuses of the game and RTS, not because they have superior mechanics. It's quite the understatement to say that they BW players don't need superior mechanics. Mechanics =/= APM btw.
... are you kidding me? Nada & July, if they were to face Flash/Jaedong in BW match, they would've absolutely gotten powned.
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Good article!
I think this is something that everyone should be aware of but then ignore.
The horrible play (compared to now) we saw i GSL 1 didn't mean it wasnt high level and entertaining at the time.
Knowing that Iron was a bad bw player doesn't make his play in sc2 less interesting to watch.
The entertainment value is still there and there are no players somewhere playing sc2 better than the guys you list, like say, AHL compared to NHL. We are not watching inferior players at this game, we are watching the best sc2 players play a young game that still has so much stuff not "solved" yet.
Oh, and there is still bw anyway I can have both!
(i sometimes fear that jd will switch to sc2 but fail to dominate and then i'll have to read non-bw people remarking on how he is nothing special and can already feel how angry that will make me)
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EPT
