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znowstorm
Australia281 Posts
SC2 Pro's make soooo many mistakes all the time (zealots in the back ffs) it can be hard to watch. I was extremely hyped for sc2 and I watched every gsl match in full up until last season. Now I mostly skip through until there is some action unless there is someone playing I really like. Eventually things will get more on par with BW where I watch a game between the best players and I'm AMAZED, rather than just impressed. | ||
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thragar
Canada450 Posts
Kind of like how Russia has a hockey league, and though the best don't play there, it doesn't mean the competition is a farce. They still compete with each other for excellent entertainment in a fixed/fair (aside from patches) environment and the game does require skill and strategy. In fact, there is more of a case that BW competition is a farce considering that some of the progamers were caught throwing games. I know the majority don't do this, but I'm just giving an example of something that really undermines the integrity of competition. And again, I just think your (bolded) thesis is incorrect, but all your supporting points and arguments were well done. I am really excited to see what the really top tier BW pros can bring to the ceiling of SC2 though. =] And I totally would like to see the same level of dedication from the SC2 pros. [Edited: clear to unclear in the second sentence. Derp.] | ||
kathode
United States265 Posts
One of the best reads ever, cannot agree more. | ||
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pieman819
Australia457 Posts
I think this is a bit of a cop out for a post under the badge of TL news with top billing on the front page. | ||
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Dfgj
Singapore5922 Posts
On May 12 2011 14:26 FawkingGoomba wrote: It does because the people who are currently at the top of SC2 are not (relatively) good at RTS. It's not that what they do isn't entertaining, it's just not (relatively) impressive. Incorrect. They are relatively fantastic compared to the average player, and only worse than the absolute top tier. You're taking away from, say, MC vs MVP because they weren't as good at BW as A-team professionals? Well shit, Boxer and Oov in 2005 weren't as good as today's A-team BW players, so was that a farce? Fuck no. | ||
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Enock927
United States30 Posts
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Zlasher
United States9129 Posts
On May 12 2011 14:27 Lowspark wrote: Your points are not valid. There are two things that completely change this game from brood war. One is multiple building select and multiple unit select) and the second is balance changes. Brood War hasn't been updated for what, 10 years? It hasn't been updated because as all games due outside of the pro scene, it fades out. Why do BW practice teams have such a regimented schedule? there really isn't such a large ladder out there for them so they have to play tons of custom games. Currently there are still highly competitive ladder games going on in sc2 as opposed to sc:BW. Why was APM so important and why were mechanics stressed so hard in sc:BW? because macro wasn't that easy. you didn't have 10 barracks hot keyed or 6 warpgates. You had to manually macro all your buildings, meaning a 300 apm player would always win against a 100 apm player. your actions were highly needed to win games and players like JD and Flash have the best mechanics. In sc2, you can sit comfortably around 150 apm and do everything a 300 apm BW player does. MC, ripping nerd apart is not the fastest player, but maybe at the time he was the smartest player. Because the game is easier in terms of mechanics, theory is more important. The game is still being balanced, but i doubt any pro players are truly thinking about if their spell casters are going to lose a spell or such, they just play. The khadarian amulet was a bit strong and needed to be nerfed slightly, and it will likely come back into the game at some point as maybe a +15 energy instead of +25. The game is still being balanced meaning that new strategies are being formed. The game is a little over a year old from beta launch, and BW is what 12 years old? I think stratagies have been figured out in that game and it really does come down to the better player at this point. The game is young and you calling out the winners as only being winners because BW still exist is really shameful. The game is different, and the players are different. There is no elephant in the room because those "BW A teamers" you love so much are still in BW. And former pros such as nada, july, boxer, and rainbow are all loosing to players like MC in sc2. Also Fruitdealer was described by tasteosis as an up and coming bw player who struggled due to family issues. NesTea was a very good 2v2 BW player but terrible at 1v1. And MC was the suicide toss and only won one televised games. They have been fairly accurate in their depictions of these players. When this game is 12 years old and sc3 comes out, you will likely write the same article about how players like MKP, Leenock, and other young players now switched over and when the real dudes switch over all the players will lose. This article is a farce I'm pretty amazed at how long winded your post is when its not relevant to what intrigue wrote. He's not saying SC2 is a joke because of it, he's saying the elephant in the room is and has been that we have only seen low A teamers switch over and "dominate" when there is no incentive for the good BW players to change when they have their lifestyle set. He's not saying SC2 is a bad game because of BW, he's saying that we have yet to see the potential and that on a whim, if the true S-class BW players switched it'd be done for. | ||
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BadWithNames
United States441 Posts
Broodwar realized a potential no one ever saw coming, and too many of it's fans spend too much effort making sure people "know" SC2 has a mountain to climb, questioning if it can manage it at all, while occasionally declaring that it can't or won't, often sighting it's impossibilities of success unless the Broodwar pros switch. I'm probably, and hopefully, missing something but that is pretty much all I see here. There's another giant elephant in the room that became a giant elephant because new SC2 fans (particularly on this site) were welcomed with "it's not broodwar" and "sc2 fans are idiots" and as such took the next logical step, stopped really giving a damn what happens with BW and KeSPA since SC2 games are practically everywhere. How an article like this bridges that divide I don't know...I'm an idiot. | ||
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Mordiford
4448 Posts
You list Ace as having had an above average career in BW then post a statistic that states he only played 2 games. A lot of the other people you list only played a handful of games as well, their careers never took of it would seem and they switched to SC2 because it would be easier to break into then trying to break into SC1. The players who move over from SC1 will already have a reputation coming in, but as we've seen, former top pros aren't completely crushing the scene but are doing well, the skills clearly carry over as seen in Nada and July. I'm not sure what I was missing for this post though, that Jaedong and Flash would crush people if they came to SC2? Yeah, pretty much... That a lot of top skill is still tied up in SC1? Yeah, that's where the money is in Korea. Would these players just come in and shit on everyone? No... The Flash and Jaedongs of the scene would come in and rise as they did in BW, the other known pros would find some kind of balance with the pros of SC2 as it is now, it's not like we're missing the real talent, the current players aren't some placeholders while we wait for the BW players to come over, they'll hold their ground when the switch is eventually made and some will go, some will continue to do well. It shouldn't cheapen the success of level of play we see now, the play will evolve as it did in BW and we might see a high quality player born in SC2. The mentality this creates is silly itself, so if we do see someone absolutely start dominating, it doesn't matter? Because they'll still get crushed when the BW folks come over? That's a poor way of cheapening the game. | ||
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Anzekay
Australia63 Posts
Despite anything else people can say, I'm still of the opinion that comparing a game with 11 years under its belt to a game that is barely a mere 1 year old just strikes me as a pointless comparison. So many of the comparisons that are made between BW and SC2, from team training styles to win/loss ratios to the occasional snide comment about SC2 mechanics, are similarities that could be made to BW in its first year. That's not to say that his arguement has merits and perhaps there is a decent bit of truth to it, but what does this profit us when, truely, we are just comparing to different games with two different scenes and lifetimes. But if all we're trying to divine here is that top players like Flash or JD come over to SC2 they will dominate, then frankly I think that could've been said and proven in about two sentences since it's essentially a given. | ||
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Mortality
United States4790 Posts
If anything, compared to modern BW B-teamers, the strengths of NaDa/Boxer/July should carry over more strongly than their recent SC:BW records indicate because they have proven themselves as innovators to a degree that modern B-teamers simply are not. And yeah, maybe Boxer and July were unimpressive at the end of their careers, but the only SC2 player who was even arguably doing better than NaDa was MVP, who took a game off Flash in MSL Ro16. Now, part of it may be that NaDa/Boxer/July already poured their souls into innovating SC:BW and that their ideas are no longer fresh or that they developed bad habits after playing for a decade plus. This is possible and if so then your argument may have more truth than I believe. Maybe videogames are a young man's sport more than I believe.That could be too. But at the end of the day, what I think is this: 1.) It IS a different game, maybe not so different, but different enough that many of the insights developed by JD and Flash won't be relevant. Enough insights will remain to allow them to become Code S players, I have no doubt, but enough to be mopping up 3 consecutive seasons in a row? Oh, I'm sure any Flash or JD fanboy will immediately agree with you, but logically speaking, even if the money offered were the same, stepping to SC2 would be a huge risk for either of them. 2.) A huge factor in the success of Flash and Jaedong is simply their mechanical superiority. How many players even come close in mechanics? Bisu? Effort? Anyone else? Yes, mechanics are not all, and a large part of what enables them to be so far ahead in mechanics is that they understand how to control the flow of the game better so that the game is played on their terms. However, in SC2 the actual mechanics won't be as much of a factor because they are so heavily dumbed down. The edge they have in hand speed simply won't be as pertinent and that's a powerful weapon they carry in their respective arsenals. | ||
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Zlasher
United States9129 Posts
On May 12 2011 14:32 pieman819 wrote: "Note: This is an editorial. The opinions expressed by this article do not reflect the official position of TeamLiquid.net or its staff (other than intrigue)." I think this is a bit of a cop out for a post under the badge of TL news with top billing on the front page. Pretty sure its a sarcastic/joke disclaimer in reference to the sixjax situation | ||
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Sandrockcstm
United States16 Posts
The fact that these players had a poor track record in BW does not excuse the fact that they have an amazing track record in SC2, and until Flash or one of the other "uber-gods" of Brood War comes to SC2 to fight against the current top players of Starcraft 2, there is just no way to objectively say who is better at Starcraft 2 or not. | ||
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Flowjo
United States928 Posts
not what he said.....2010 Nada or July would not be "capable of beating flash/JD". This entire post actually has alot of misinformation. | ||
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d(O.o)a
Canada5066 Posts
To answer this, those are old legends that are past their prime, they're posting better results in SC2 than they would if they were playing Broodwar. Indeed they're not the best of the best, but they were far from that in BW too, 6 years ago nada would've been awesome, 10 years ago and boxer would be destroying. The fact of the matter is those are players who are not as mechanically refined as the top bw players (or even the A teamers for that matter) and in their age they simply won't reach that. | ||
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pieman819
Australia457 Posts
On May 12 2011 14:34 Zlasher wrote: Pretty sure its a sarcastic/joke disclaimer in reference to the sixjax situation oh i missed that whats happening with sixjax? | ||
BisuDagger
Bisutopia19158 Posts
On May 12 2011 14:27 Lowspark wrote: Your points are not valid. There are two things that completely change this game from brood war. One is multiple building select and multiple unit select) and the second is balance changes. Brood War hasn't been updated for what, 10 years? It hasn't been updated because as all games due outside of the pro scene, it fades out. Why do BW practice teams have such a regimented schedule? there really isn't such a large ladder out there for them so they have to play tons of custom games. Currently there are still highly competitive ladder games going on in sc2 as opposed to sc:BW. Why was APM so important and why were mechanics stressed so hard in sc:BW? because macro wasn't that easy. you didn't have 10 barracks hot keyed or 6 warpgates. You had to manually macro all your buildings, meaning a 300 apm player would always win against a 100 apm player. your actions were highly needed to win games and players like JD and Flash have the best mechanics. In sc2, you can sit comfortably around 150 apm and do everything a 300 apm BW player does. MC, ripping nerd apart is not the fastest player, but maybe at the time he was the smartest player. Because the game is easier in terms of mechanics, theory is more important. The game is still being balanced, but i doubt any pro players are truly thinking about if their spell casters are going to lose a spell or such, they just play. The khadarian amulet was a bit strong and needed to be nerfed slightly, and it will likely come back into the game at some point as maybe a +15 energy instead of +25. The game is still being balanced meaning that new strategies are being formed. The game is a little over a year old from beta launch, and BW is what 12 years old? I think stratagies have been figured out in that game and it really does come down to the better player at this point. The game is young and you calling out the winners as only being winners because BW still exist is really shameful. The game is different, and the players are different. There is no elephant in the room because those "BW A teamers" you love so much are still in BW. And former pros such as nada, july, boxer, and rainbow are all loosing to players like MC in sc2. Also Fruitdealer was described by tasteosis as an up and coming bw player who struggled due to family issues. NesTea was a very good 2v2 BW player but terrible at 1v1. And MC was the suicide toss and only won one televised games. They have been fairly accurate in their depictions of these players. When this game is 12 years old and sc3 comes out, you will likely write the same article about how players like MKP, Leenock, and other young players now switched over and when the real dudes switch over all the players will lose. This article is a farce I know APM is discussed a lot. But here's the side I take. Take any smart BW player with 300 apm and throw them into SC2. Yes there is significantly less macro apm to be proficient at building. Now imagine those players being able to move so fast that they can focus the 150 extra apm from BW war on battles/harass/and setting themselves up strategically. To me, that's far scarier. And these top BW players can think strategically. You said that MC has theory down and that is why he can be a solid player with sc2. Well the top BW players have theory down and they can play twice as fast paced. With less actions to handle, this just allows them to become even more creative. | ||
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Mioraka
Canada1353 Posts
Although I never followed the BW scene in Korea, I can see how it benefited SC2 player pool in Korea. The amount of talent in the field is unmatched, BW during its 10 years of glory has set up a efficient structure for producing talents. Comparing the foreign scene and the korean scene, it's like comparing people who have access to systematic post-secondary education to people who only get to finish elementary school. Are there geniuses who, even though didn't have the chance at university, still become the best just through their raw talent? Certainly, but the possibility is much much less....not because their talent, but just because of their access to ways of improving themselves. Most foreign pros are just limited to self-education or small study groups, while the koreans have the best system with the best BW professors. SC2 is Korea is still no match for BW in terms of talent pool, structure, and popularity. If BW's system is a university, SC2 at max is a highschool. Of course people transifering are going to do well, they have more experience if not more knowledge about the game. Even compare SC2 Korean and foreigner scene, they still have that experience to set up a better structure, foreigners are doing better, they are catching up. But there's 10 years of experience of how to create a working system to produce good players lies in between them. The competition is incomparable between SC2 and BW............for now. HOWEVER, if I can make a bold prediction, I'd say SC2 is going to catch up.....maybe not in a few month, or a year, but it's going to catch up. Here are my reasoning: They have the same access to new blood, and to them, SC2 is no doubt more attractive because it represents the future. BW is a dying game, I say this not because of any prejudice, but rather, a state of the fact. No system can survive without new blood, no matter how great it is. Is SC2 a better game compared to BW? Probably not. Is it going to be better? Maybe, maybe not. BW is magnificent, its fun to watch, with no skill ceilings. But it doesn't matter, it's more than 10 years old, for a video game, in human lifespan terms, that's like 140 years old. As much as the hardcore gamers hate to see, graphics play a HUGE role for both speculators and casual players when they choose which one to watch or play. For the new generation, SC2 is the game to play.........and guess where new blood for progamers comes from? Casual players. You first have fun, then you go pro if you are good. If you didn't follow BW until now, chances are you won't get into it now. Yet you can get into SC2......maybe just for its flashy graphics, it doesn't matter. SC2 might not be as great as BW, but its a decent if not brilliant game in its own right. It's capable of pulling new players, new viewers on its own; while BW is on its decline in the product life cycle. There wont be any new players, and there wont be any new viewers. What drives a industry? Money. What drives Money? Profit. Who brings profit? Customers, in this case, viewers. In the long term, profit is the only drive. If product produces enough profit, improvements on procedures of how to create it more effectively and efficiently will take place. As we can already see, money is streaming into SC2....maybe not much, if you compare to traditional sports, but it's definitely happening. Korea is lagging behind in this perspective, due to the insane popularity of BW, but it has its own advantage-- they have the best product, they know how to produce the best product, and they have a huge talent pool awaiting to be explored. This is the chance for foreigners to catch up, set up the infrastructure to attract and train top level pros like the Koreans. Maybe Korea, in the future, might still be the best at Starcraft, but at least it will be the difference between a first place and a second, third; not the difference between a giant and some ants. With the access to the same experience, more attractiveness to new comers. SC2 will takeover, maybe not now, maybe not in a year, but definitely it will. | ||
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hmunkey
United Kingdom1973 Posts
My biggest fear is that if SC2 does take off, the foreign scene will die instantly. There is no way in hell any NA/EU payer could compete with a well-practices Flash or JD in SC2. And if the SC2 scene doesn't take off in a big way, it won't be around for much longer than a year. | ||
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Keone
United States812 Posts
On May 12 2011 14:15 xxpack09 wrote: I loved the whole "friday night lights" metaphor. The idea of a "woongjin terran" being "the best terran in the world..." is a little off-putting. I read this and couldn't stop laughing for a minute. I hadn't remembered that MVP was originally Woongjin until now!!! Oh Woongjin terrans... hahahaha | ||
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