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On May 12 2011 14:23 Dfgj wrote:
I can't help but feel this was entirely unnecessary.
Yes, the best RTS players tend to be good at RTSs, and most of them play Broodwar. How does this imply the competition is a farce, or that play people watch and find impressive or entertaining is somehow without merit?
If anything, this is encouraging BW vs SC2, by slamming on the BW nostalgia goggles. Well... ok?
It does because the people who are currently at the top of SC2 are not (relatively) good at RTS. It's not that what they do isn't entertaining, it's just not (relatively) impressive.
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Wow, such an amazing read. I'm literally speechless at how amazing this article.
I'm hoping for a lot more great SC2 TLFE's. I know they do take a while, but they're well worth the wait. My mouth is literally watering.
Here are my thoughts if you care to read:
The BW B-team players were at least A on ICCUP, which was an olympian feat for any human yet these are the players who make up the "bottom" tier BW players. The A-teamers are beyond the skill of B-teamers, and then the S-class players are in a world of their own.
Consider this:
B-teamers would be the current top of the ladder now, and A-teamers are a league beyond those players. Then the outliers like Flash and Jaedong are even more leagues above the A-teamers. This is the scope of skill that people are discussing when comparing BW and SC2.
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Completely agree with the article but I wonder about the money. How much are the salaries of the non-superstar BW players? It is weird to me that none of them have switched after seeing who is winning the SC2 tournaments. Is a player like  Really actually better off financially in BW when he could be taking down multiple GSLs? Or do they just think SC2 won't last?
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I think you can't take this articles argument seriously since it seems to be written in a way to deliberately be edgy. It's pretty good as a troll piece, though.
If I can equate this argument to anything SC related, it's like when people play "what if year XX (player) fought year XX (player)" In the end, times are different, and there's no realistic way that the argument can be legitimate. In this case, the games are completely different, so there's no real way this argument can be considered legitimate.
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Interesting read taking into account that I have only followed sc2 and not sc1
.If everything said is true, then I'm pretty happy. As a spectator it means that there will be a lot of "new" pros to hit the scene that will make a big splash. We won't be stuck watching the same players go at it in each league or tournament, or the same players constantly at the top. It will be exiting to see new blood come in every year from sc1, brings into play way more story line to the game, not to mention past rivalries rising up again.
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On May 12 2011 14:25 cYaN wrote:
To me this is like saying non-korean bw wasn't worth following because if koreans showed up they'd crush everyone. If we let Koreans play in TSL2.... no foreigner even qualifies. Therefore it cheapened TSL2. and 1 + countless other competitions for that matter. Of course you're right about Flash & co... but i disagree with that being such a huge problem to be honest.
I don't think they're saying its a huge problem, it is as the title states, the elephant in the room.
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Great read, really interesting points you made there. I'm looking forward to when and if any other those A-Class BW players move over to SC2 and see if you were right all along 
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I agree with what Hotbid said but I would further it to include more players other than Jaedong and Flash. Surely they would dominate but I think you can include players like Stork, Zero, Fantasy, Best, Bisu, etc. I think those types of players would surely climb to the top in a matter of time.
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Your points are not valid. There are two things that completely change this game from brood war. One is multiple building select and multiple unit select) and the second is balance changes.
Brood War hasn't been updated for what, 10 years? It hasn't been updated because as all games due outside of the pro scene, it fades out. Why do BW practice teams have such a regimented schedule? there really isn't such a large ladder out there for them so they have to play tons of custom games. Currently there are still highly competitive ladder games going on in sc2 as opposed to sc:BW.
Why was APM so important and why were mechanics stressed so hard in sc:BW? because macro wasn't that easy. you didn't have 10 barracks hot keyed or 6 warpgates. You had to manually macro all your buildings, meaning a 300 apm player would always win against a 100 apm player. your actions were highly needed to win games and players like JD and Flash have the best mechanics. In sc2, you can sit comfortably around 150 apm and do everything a 300 apm BW player does. MC, ripping nerd apart is not the fastest player, but maybe at the time he was the smartest player. Because the game is easier in terms of mechanics, theory is more important.
The game is still being balanced, but i doubt any pro players are truly thinking about if their spell casters are going to lose a spell or such, they just play. The khadarian amulet was a bit strong and needed to be nerfed slightly, and it will likely come back into the game at some point as maybe a +15 energy instead of +25. The game is still being balanced meaning that new strategies are being formed. The game is a little over a year old from beta launch, and BW is what 12 years old? I think stratagies have been figured out in that game and it really does come down to the better player at this point.
The game is young and you calling out the winners as only being winners because BW still exist is really shameful. The game is different, and the players are different. There is no elephant in the room because those "BW A teamers" you love so much are still in BW. And former pros such as nada, july, boxer, and rainbow are all loosing to players like MC in sc2.
Also Fruitdealer was described by tasteosis as an up and coming bw player who struggled due to family issues. NesTea was a very good 2v2 BW player but terrible at 1v1. And MC was the suicide toss and only won one televised games. They have been fairly accurate in their depictions of these players.
When this game is 12 years old and sc3 comes out, you will likely write the same article about how players like MKP, Leenock, and other young players now switched over and when the real dudes switch over all the players will lose.
This article is a farce
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Such an interesting article, especially for me, who knew little about the BW scene.
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Bisutopia19158 Posts
First article in a long time I read word for word. I know how much you support the BW scene still and really appreciated the break down of this article.
My thoughts: After Bisu wins 1 more MSL and 2 more OSL's, if at that point he switches to SC2 then he would dominate even Flash and JD. That's just my biased and completely justified opinion.
Thanks for the write up!!!!!
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I don't think anyone can really say for sure, though this was a thought provoking article I still think it will take longer than a week for Flash to take proper games off current progamers.
I think something can be said for MC's nickname. The 'flounder' and 'suicide toss.' These nicknames arose because, he was an up and coming player, but suffered from nerves (that seems really weird right now, as he's suffering from over confidence). Most of his televised losses were him making one major mistake in macro, rather than decision making or micro, which are more important in SC2.
NesTea was in the same boat, he was a strong player, but his macro was his weakness, he was quite strong in 2v2. FruitDealer had family issues and wasn't even full time due to his familial commitments from what I remember. Correct me if I'm wrong, it was quite a while ago and I'm working off memory from A team players, who didn't get much notice.
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United States13896 Posts
Glad to see FEs are back. Its been too long. Great article, thought provoking and leaves a lot to look forward to as more BW pros migrate over and change the way the game is played.
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I been screaming about exactly this on many of my arguments about Imbalance whinings, let the best do the whining, and the best is not even playing the game yet. so quit the whining and enjoy your head starts.
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Funny thing is the mechanics and gameplay of SC2 would make S-class and A-team players be less dominant than they should be. I could see top foreigners take games off them with much greater regularity than one would expect. Build order win here, all-in there.
*Here's another thing for those who don't realize: SC2 is unpopular, considered inferior and less exciting to watch by Korean fans and players alike. Not all, but the majority. Unless HotS changes this in a major way, and OGN/MBC pick up the game, it will stay this way.
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good post. i agree.
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United States1769 Posts
Yay a FE!
I pretty much agree with this entirely. It's one of the reasons I just don't admire most of the SC2 players that much. The ones I support and like to see win are BW pros. And the foreigners that I like to see win are the ones training or who have trained in Korea, the Liquid guys and Idra basically.
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Great read, it always frustrates me to see people say Jaedong, Flash and BiSu wouldn't dominate SC2.
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I usually love all front page articles but I honestly don't see the point of this one. Even with a section specifically titled: What's your point? I still really don't see a point.
We work with what we have in SC2, the player pool that currently exists, and within that pool there are dominant players. Their BW accomplishments are totally irrelevant. Once more BW pros switch the important thing will be their SC2 career, because they're playing a new game with a new player pool.
Cheapening current SC2 careers and tournaments because Flash could demolish the scene if he wanted to is totally ridiculous and unfair. It's like saying the best basketball player at your high school's accomplishments are meaningless because DRose could have come in and destroyed him. It's just plain silly.
Knowing that JD would crush SC2 is just a pointless fact. He's not playing SC2. Focus on the current players.
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Very nicely written article. As more and more BW pros switch over its only going to get better for SC2. It will enhance the professionalism because players are going to need to work harder to keep up.
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EPT
