The Elephant in the Room - Page 15

Crunchums

United States11144 Posts

May 12 2011 06:14 GMT

#281

Your argument contains a premise that you acknowledge only indirectly - that SC2 is a game where practicing intensely in the manner that BW pros is singularly important to success. A single anecdote potentially supporting this point is not sufficient.

But even if you were completely right that SC2 players aren't training as hard as they could be training and that this makes the competition less fierce, the fact that Flash and Jaedong haven't switched over doesn't make the competition a farce.

To me, this article is just fueling SC2 fans' hatred and misunderstanding of Brood War fans.

edit: The one point that this article supports that I agree with is that a regular SC2 teamleague would improve the competition.

Kimaker

United States2131 Posts

May 12 2011 06:15 GMT

#282

Phenomenal article. Once more, the TL admins and staff perfectly articulate my exact feelings about this most glorious game. Well done my good sirs.

Also, the number of whiners coming out to take their potshots make me chuckle.

d(O.o)a

Canada5066 Posts

May 12 2011 06:16 GMT

#283

On May 12 2011 15:13 Two_DoWn wrote:

Show nested quote +

On May 12 2011 15:00 T0fuuu wrote:

On May 12 2011 14:55 GolemMadness wrote:

On May 12 2011 14:48 darmousseh wrote:

On May 12 2011 14:37 KWik-E wrote:
I feel like the point of this article is to belittle the achievements of the SC2 champions. I feel like the article doesn't address the fact that most of these people who have switched over after having relatively unsuccessful BW careers most likely approached this new game with a work ethic and mind set that they most likely didn't have in their mediocre BW experience.

^^
This reflects my thoughts about the article. Just because they aren't the best RTS gamers in the world should it change anything. In sports, many great athletes choose one sport over another. For example, Michael Jordan was a great basketball player and some of the same athleticism would transfer over to baseball, but it's not 1-1. I think having talent spread out among multiple games is important for ESPORTS. Obviously the best thing for sc2 would be to have the best talent, but I don't think that any pros or any fans of sc2 care right now. The only people that really care about scbw players switching over are those who don't want them to switch over. It would be great to have jaedong, flash, bisu for sure, but I will enjoy watching Nestea, MVP, and MC instead.

In the end, I don't understand the point of this article. So Top level bw players haven't switched over and so the best players in sc2 are mid level bw players. Ok, and?

Your point as quoted is

I am saying that there are 300 current pros and semi-pros that have the potential to come in and dominate SC2 at any moment, with a latency of a few months from the day they switch. Among this group there are a notable few that CRUSH any other players in terms of raw talent and/or work ethic and/or ability to learn. This knowledge cheapens any form of competition I see right now, no matter how much I try to enjoy the games.

If the Top 500 football(american) players suddenly switched to soccer, we suddenly would forget the names of the current best soccer players (assuming the transfer of skills is the same as bw/sc2, which it's close enough). Yes that's true, but that doesn't make me think "Oh geez, I don't like soccer because the best athletes are playing american football so I should just watch american football instead". They are different games and while they are related, no one should ever see an "elephant in the room". When I talk to casual fans of watching sc2 I don't say "man, this would be so much better if flash was playing", take sc2 as it is and enjoy it, without any elephants.

...Are you serious? You think that a sport that's only really played in two countries has the best athletes on the planet and the athletes of a sport that's by far the most popular on the planet are inferior? Do you ACTUALLY think this?

ROFLMAO. But ignoring the fact that the top 500 american football players would get destroyed, the top 500 american football players would probably never leave because it is far more profitable to play their sport. Same problem the article has because it is entirely hypothetical and not realistic for a player to switch.

Only this would be like NFL players going back to college football. For some reason people continually deny this fact: SC2 is not a different game from BW. The mechanics are the same. The concepts are the same. Only everything in SC2 is easier. Are there new units and strategies? Sure. But it isnt as though knowing when to expand and when to attack is somehow lost in translation.

This. I need to stop reading this thread as it's giving me a headache. MVP used his knowledge of when to attack and expand and etc to become one of the best terrans in SC2. MVP was NOT very good at knowing when to attack exp and etc in BW, yet his abilities were still good enough to become a top SC2 terran. Now think of the people who play BW and are GOOD at knowing when to attack, expand and etc and you might understand.

But most people will not read this or will write it off.

slytown

Korea (South)1411 Posts

May 12 2011 06:16 GMT

#284

I can't stand these statements that read, "Old school was so much better." Too much Jaedong and Flash fanboyism in this article. I agree watching those two play is exciting and so high level, as is much of the BW I've watched, but this article has too much nostalgia. If you prefer BW games, then why would you go and BM SC2 players just cuz they weren't spectacular at SC1/BW? Remember for awhile in SC1 people didn't take expansions and remember all the micro that Boxer introduced.

Points.

1. SC2 is young. It might impress you more later on, as SC1 and BW probably did. Skill is historically contextual and right now, MVP is looking like the best Terran in the world (at least TvT

).
2. SC2 is too easy of a target because of the graphics. Some people will just not like something new and flashy. "These damn kids and their new things. Back in my day..."
3. Getting good at something takes up a lot of your time. I doubt you know specifically how much each player you mentioned puts into either SC1/BW/SC2 or the reasons why, but its too easy to simply look at the numbers and say someone should have done badly at SC2.

GrapeD

Canada679 Posts

May 12 2011 06:16 GMT

#285

I have been waiting for a good write up on this topic since July 27th. Good write up!

PorwegianNussy

2 Posts

May 12 2011 06:17 GMT

#286

I think you fail to take into account all the unknown players who are secretly doing the same thing Flash did. Starcraft 2 is huge outside of Korea, which means there are kids Flash's age (when he started) working their asses off to become the new stars of Starcraft 2.

The longer the Broodwar players wait to transfer over, the more time that gives these young prodigies chances to improve.

Also, on an unrelated note: For a while everyone was using MC as an example of just how good broodwar players are. All the sudden he's beaten by ret and Thorzain, and people stop making that argument.

Jibba

United States22883 Posts

May 12 2011 06:17 GMT

#287

On May 12 2011 15:13 Dfgj wrote:

Show nested quote +

Flash won his OSL title on 150308. His first televised game was 150307, precisely one year earlier - and he most certainly was on a team before that, and practicing as such. This is by TLPD and memory, so I (or it) might be a bit off.

The case of Flash is a bit weird. Wasn't he still going to high school after he got televised matches? I think it's better to just say that Flash was not a great or good or mediocre player during his first year with BW, and right now most people are approaching a year with SC2.

Zdrastochye

Ivory Coast6262 Posts

May 12 2011 06:17 GMT

#288

While it was a well-thought out argument, just because Hot_Bid said BW does carry over to SC2, that doesn't mean it's true. Mechanics for BW and SC2 are similar, even though BW is much more complex, but you don't take into account the fact that mechanics in BW take you further than mechanics in SC2.

What I mean by that is, if you mis-micro and end up in a hole in BW, you're down 6 bases and have half his supply, beasts like Flash can pulll themselves out of a seemingly unwinnable scenario and come back, not by cheesing back into the game but by simply being better mechanically. In SC2 if you're a zerg who's down in suppply to a 200/200 protoss with a deathball despite whatever special tactics you employ, they can a-move into you and kill you. Because of this disparity, BW enables better mechanics to allow you to win when you really shouldn't be able to.

I'm not saying you can't come back in SC2, that's not what I'm getting at. I just gave one example of where mechanics in BW can help you in a way that mechanics in SC2 can't. They're similar games, and the point is very well made that the people currently playing SC2 aren't BW A-teamers, but I still don't think SC2 has developed enough as a game (my entire argument could be invalid after HotS if the new units allow for a higher skillcurve) yet to begin to say that BW mechanics can be converted to SC2 to compare how good or not good someone will be at SC2 if they played it.

Carson

Canada820 Posts

May 12 2011 06:17 GMT

#289

On May 12 2011 14:36 hmunkey wrote:
Thank you for saying what needed to be said. This was an excellent read.

My biggest fear is that if SC2 does take off, the foreign scene will die instantly. There is no way in hell any NA/EU payer could compete with a well-practices Flash or JD in SC2. And if the SC2 scene doesn't take off in a big way, it won't be around for much longer than a year.

Interesting thoughts, with NA events being popular for sc2, do you still think that is true?

illsick

United States1770 Posts

May 12 2011 06:17 GMT

#290

Well, seems like this article is trying to discredit the sc2 scene a bit. Personally, I will enjoy watching sc2 regardless of if the BW pros switch or not; but I would love for them to switch over to sc2 :D

but it's a different game and sc2 was A LOT more competitive than when sc1 came out. But it makes sense that the hard working/driven players from BW switching over to sc2 would create a more fierce competition but at the same time so did adding talented WC3 pros that switched to the sc2 scene. I don't particularly enjoy the purpose of the article, seemed like it subconsciously try to hinder the growth of the sc2 scene (but that's just my opinion).

I think that some of the BW pros would make the switch flawlessly and would dominate in time but at the same time I think some won't. Some have been playing BW too long and might not like to learn or adapt to the changes of a new game. Some might be stuck on BW too much and lose their passion, and making the switch only to follow the scene. I believe that some of the pros in BW now are very passionate about BW because they grew up watching it and loved playing it while a more passionate sc2 player could take their place.

Also, you have to remember the scene is still a bit young. What drove these BW players to practice the way they do and how they approach the game? competition, salaries, and many tournaments/leagues. As the sc2 scene grows or gets more competitive, players mindset and practice habits will change with it. When sc1 started it didn't magically go *POOF* and the competition produced jaedong mindset players.

I)etox

1240 Posts

May 12 2011 06:18 GMT

#291

On May 12 2011 15:12 Ruscour wrote:
Does it really matter? The scene is alive, the game is new, everything's growing and esports is penetrating the mainstream in the West like it never has before thanks to SC2. I don't understand why the discussion is so important to people. Well written to the OP, hopefully we see less threads about it now.

It's important if you want to see SC2 to become as competitive and as long lasting as BW is. eSports is growing in the west? Great. But if the game and players don't push themselves then the scene will stagnate. Players right now can't let themselves become complacent.

Don't discount the OP just because you don't like the "snobby" tone. It brings up some great points that need to be addressed if SC2 is going to be a mainstay of eSports.

Firkraag8

Sweden1006 Posts

May 12 2011 06:18 GMT

#292

Did Flash/Jaedong play WC2 before they made the switch to BW? They got into the game and got good at it, simple as that. Then what's to say that in 1-2 years there won't be the same in SC2? New players keep streaming into SC2 and there's bound to be the same kind of talent and work ethic among at least some of these.

Flash/Jaedong is not, and never will be unique. There will always be people like this, and they won't always make their start in Broodwar. And if Flash/Jaedong don't make the switch to SC2 soon then they will not have a chance to beat these new prodigys which has played SC2 for a lot longer.

Devolved

United States2753 Posts

May 12 2011 06:18 GMT

#293

Like, duh. Right now SC2 is similar to what WC3 was at its peek, but with more support from Blizzard and other corporations. The people that couldn't cut it in BW switched to WC3, and now they're switching to SC2. They can not compete at the current level of a hundred other BW pros and so they take their chances with another game where their odds are better. If there was incentive for top level BW pros to switch over we would probably have a completely different understanding of what is possible in SC2.

CDRdude

United States5625 Posts

May 12 2011 06:19 GMT

#294

On May 12 2011 15:09 IntoTheWow wrote:

Show nested quote +

NaDa and July would take exactly 0 bo5 series from Jaedong and Flash.

I think that July would actually have a small but nonzero shot at taking out flash in a series. His aggressive earlygame should do quite well against flash's desire to cut corners for a better economy. With a bit of luck in the build orders, he'd have a shot. And I think we all know July isn't afraid of 4pooling in high pressure situations.

kinray

Bulgaria49 Posts

May 12 2011 06:19 GMT

#295

Great article, I agree with most of it (if now with all) but I really think that there should be added the balance point of SC2.

What i mean is that SC:BW became the game we know now sometime around 2001 (I might be wrong with the exact year but i think it's not by too much) and this is 3 years after release of SC:BW. So don't you think that we still need about the same time until we have the same level of balance in SC2?

ShLiM

Bulgaria178 Posts

May 12 2011 06:19 GMT

#296

I didnt like it, its so exaggerated.
Obviously the current A-teamers when they switch will dominate sc2, even a 6yrs old boy, can tell you that.

wolfe

United States761 Posts

May 12 2011 06:20 GMT

#297

You lied. The end still seemed hopeful and optimistic. I'm excited :D

On a side note, this thread while fun was kinda a "no duh" moment. Yes A-class SC1 players are about the same as the current cream of the crop SC2 players. Yes S-class players will destroy everyone and...?

garbanzo

United States4046 Posts

May 12 2011 06:20 GMT

#298

Interesting article. It's nice to have another TLFE, haven't had one of those in a while. I'm curious why SC2 proteams don't have salaries like in BW. Is it because the game is so young that they can't get enough sponsors? I feel like having a salary would be a good incentive for players to work harder and teams would be in a better position to have a regimented schedule for their players.

I think it would be exciting to see what the scene would be like a year from now. I think it definitely is showing promise, but it's just so volatile right now to be an interesting competition.

mitthrawn

Germany443 Posts

May 12 2011 06:21 GMT

#299

The writer of this article must be a huge bitter SC:BW vet. :D

Crais

Canada2136 Posts

May 12 2011 06:22 GMT

#300

I cannot wait for Jaedong or flash to switch over. There is 0 incentive for them to do so atm though. I think that RTS mindset/skillset is a huge deal. Take a look at Grubby. He has gone from a nobody in sc2 to a force in about 5ish months.

BTW TL FE so fucking gooooood

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