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On May 12 2011 16:38 mahnini wrote:Show nested quote +On May 12 2011 16:35 Fraidnot wrote:On May 12 2011 16:17 mahnini wrote:
regardless of your opinion on the matter i think it's petty and pretty insulting to simply say "this just states the obvious and is written because of bw elitism".
anyway great article, it's a shame people can't accept it for what it is, a very informative and educational piece. Calling the competitive scene a joke, is neither very informative or educational, especially since it's based on speculation. you're picking out ONE line of the entire article. Show nested quote +What’s your point?
I am saying that there are 300 current pros and semi-pros that have the potential to come in and dominate SC2 at any moment, with a latency of a few months from the day they switch. Among this group there are a notable few that CRUSH any other players in terms of raw talent and/or work ethic and/or ability to learn. This knowledge cheapens any form of competition I see right now, no matter how much I try to enjoy the games. did you even read to the conclusion? do you disagree with this? can you bring up some points? example games? ANYTHING?
what silly logic, so he has to go prepare a counter article to disprove this? Man, you know its bad when we have to write essays to get across that this article is bogus.
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You really need to cite your sources.
MVP, on his move to SC2: Show nested quote +This is the first time I've mentioned it, but I come from a very poor family. The 100,000,000 won prize GSL came out with had a big influence on my switch. I wanted to win, and I wanted to make money. I wanted to help my family out with my winnings.
I speak Korean fluently and I just spent maybe 20 minutes looking for MVP saying anything at all regarding his family being poor. I found nothing. This must also be your own translation, because Google came up with nothing when I searched for that exact wording. I did, however, find MVP stating that:
"I did not quit Starcraft to play Starcraft 2. After retiring from Starcraft I thought about several things, and many close individuals gave me advice, and I finally made the decision to start in Starcraft 2" Source.
I also found another article of MVP thanking his old coach from Woongjin Stars for convincing him to start in Starcraft 2 after he retired from Starcraft. Source.
You also twisted his words around in your quote of his TSL interview. He states that "I wasn't enjoying myself in Starcraft because of contract issues and because I had lost interest in the game from playing it for too long." and that in Starcraft 2 he wanted to "enjoy himself". He most definitely was not making light of the game as a whole.
I disagree with so much of this article, for reasons already stated by other individuals, but as this is a matter of opinion, I don't think that it is anything to be fussed about. However, I can't stand for your misquoting a player's words to make a point.
Edit: grammar
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On May 12 2011 16:26 Skipton wrote:Show nested quote +On May 12 2011 16:18 Mordiford wrote:On May 12 2011 16:15 TheAntZ wrote:
Its like an anime and the strongest bad guys are still to come~ Yeah, only... it's not at fucking all like that. Except it is like that? I honestly don't see how people are saying that Flash / Jaedong / Bisu would not completely dominate the scene. Up to a certain point it is work ethic that counts. The three players listed here have incredible work ethic. A large portion of players currently playing sc2 make comments like "i have lacked motivation" or "I haven't been practicing as much lately." You see these statements CONSTANTLY in post GSL code A and S match interviews. Regardless of the obvious talent these three have, their work ethic alone would thrash that of what current sc2 pros have. Sc2 wouldn't be something they would relax or have fun with. The vast majority of sc2 players do not practice for 12+ hours a day, and many of them say that it would hinder them and not help them, but at the current stage of sc2 where so much is to be discovered and NOBODY has exceptional mechanics yet, the more practice will produce the better player, not even taking into account raw talent.
Flash isn't a bad guy.
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On May 12 2011 16:35 thesundowners wrote:Show nested quote +On May 12 2011 16:27 Zlasher wrote:
To me the article is far less malicious then people are trying to make it seem. He isn't undermining the SC2 scene to that extent, I've sat with intrigue around korean bbq where he said in his own words that BW is dying and that SC2 is the future.
What this article is, is pointing out exactly as the title states, the elephant in the room that nobody has taken the time to gather the statistics and evidence to point towards what has been assumed for ages but that we won't know until/if it happens, which is showing that we have only seen the low A-teamers and worse in SC2, and showing that their drive and work ethic is far inferior to what solid A and S class players in BW have taken 12 years to cultivate. I think that part of the article is well done and not necessarily gospel I think it is closer to the truth than some people might admit. Being a BW god doesn't mean you'll automatically become an SC2 god but it likely gives you the biggest headstart you could possibly have. The only issue I took here was the obvious inflammatory headline about how SC2 is a "farce" so far. It's a statement that largely detracts from the rest of the points he makes because it introduces a pretty obvious bias. Whether or not he intended it maliciously, starting out the article by dropping a bombshell like that will affect the context in which we read the rest of it
It would make you an SC2 god not because you are a BW god but because you have the mindset and work ethic that would trump any of the current top SC2 players, and have better execution of everything and decision making than they have had in the past and would have in the future once someone comes in and learns the game properly after but a few weeks.
PS: I'm glad you can discuss this civilly unlike many others who have come to post in here for their first few posts
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On May 12 2011 16:38 mahnini wrote:
you're picking out ONE line of the entire article.
One line that's bolded and in bigger text which generally means it's more important, and one that gives the rest of the post a perceived bias. Are you really surprised that somebody might focus on it?
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On May 12 2011 16:40 Douillos wrote:Show nested quote +On May 12 2011 16:38 mahnini wrote:On May 12 2011 16:35 Fraidnot wrote:On May 12 2011 16:17 mahnini wrote:
regardless of your opinion on the matter i think it's petty and pretty insulting to simply say "this just states the obvious and is written because of bw elitism".
anyway great article, it's a shame people can't accept it for what it is, a very informative and educational piece. Calling the competitive scene a joke, is neither very informative or educational, especially since it's based on speculation. you're picking out ONE line of the entire article. That one line is what is creating such chaos.
Analogy: An SC2 mod writes an article entitled "The Elephant In The Room": Competitive BW is dead outside of Korea. It has no sustainable growth, no newbies picking up the game for the first time in any appreciable numbers. SC2 has replaced it on the international scene. Players like Flash and Jaedong are the last gasps of a wheezing e-sport that has already been taken off of life-support on the WCG line-up due to age.
How would BW fans react?
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I wish people would stop using "real sport" references like football or basketball in their arguments, as a man who was never into sports (outside of eSports) it doesn't make it easy to understand their position in this debate.
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Interesting article but nonetheless I have a few things to bring up:
1) Just because there is Starcraft in the name, I don't think it's fair to say SC1 is a determinant of success in SC2. The game is quite different once you get beyond the fundamental mechanics. Before in BW you have to be a god at mechanics which can decide your chance of winning or losing. Now that this has been "dumbed down" there are other areas to focus on to win. It becomes a much BIG picture game rather than utilizing small squads to their maximum potential so to speak.
2) July and Boxer and some of the older pros switched out of wanting something new. But what about the younger ones? Some players develop later and some players are fabulous gamers at an earlier age. There's always the discrepancy in resources put into some players. Now I'm not saying MC is godly, but I'm saying maybe in BW, he wasn't given the resource and spotlight to develop him into a better player, and like mentioned in the article, he was used more as practice for the "A Team" members.
3) It's like professional sports, sometimes being on the best team is bad if you are new because there is a tried and tested team that has been formed already, so resources and playing time won't be given to you. Sometimes a player with potential might have to join a crappier team so that he can get a chance to develop and become a better player. I think this is very much the case. Perhaps MC and other gamers are more suited for SC2 than SC BW. Very much like how Warcraft 3 and SC2 are very different games, I think there are still big differences between SC BW and SC2.
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Superb article, but yeah, wish everyone could read it without resorting to bring up the the eternal "MY GAME IS BETTER THAN YOURS!!!!" without presenting any decent arguments..
And I don't understand why people call it "ignorant" (Artosis saying it on Twitter doesn't make true by default, sorry), the OP is imo discussing and tries to present facts and conclusions in a pretty decently logical and easy-to-read manner?
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I wrote an entire essay in this reply, before realizing what your actual point of this article was - I completely respect your opinion that Broodwar is still more fun for you - If that is indeed your point - I got the feeling that there is a little more in this from your side though. You are taking quite a few stabs at the Starcraft 2 competitive scene here and I'm not truely convinced that you're really being sincere with your "Whats my point?"-section.
I enjoy watching the danish national soccer league - Even though I know FC Barcelona and Real Madrid are not playing in our national league, I still enjoy it and still find it exciting. I know that there are teams outside of our league that could run circles around our best teams, but so what? If you applied the point of your article to other things in your life, what would the point in doing anything be?
I think you're a little bitter of all the attention Starcraft 2 is getting over Broodwar. A typical conservative Broodwar fanatic  . At least thats what I think that your 'real' "Whats my point?" is.
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On May 12 2011 16:35 TheRhox wrote:Show nested quote +On May 12 2011 16:27 gk_ender wrote:On May 12 2011 16:20 TheRhox wrote:On May 12 2011 16:15 gk_ender wrote:On May 12 2011 16:07 WhiteDog wrote:
It's a good read but all that is quite hypothetical.
Most of the community were thinking that, within the foreign scene, the ex SC1 players would just dominate the ex WC3 players on SC2, but we are seeing something quite different, almost the opposite in fact, with two ex WC3 players facing each others in final of the TSL3, crushing MC, FruitDealer and such.
In Korea, the SC2 community is made / dominated by ex BW pro because the SC1 scene is so big that it impact so much with any kind of esport.
In my opinion, SC2 demand different skills from SC1, and even if players such as Flash and JD are overwhelming, I'm not sure they will dominate that much. Thorzain beat mc because of lag no offense to thorzain, but in live tournaments the koreans tend to win. Besides that the ex sc1 foreign players were still no mvp or mc, and they were garbage in comparison to most players. Heres another happy stat, did you know that for wcg that the koreans play drunk except when they play eachother (and then they still do) and that not only has no one ever taken first from them in wcg, but has only taken second once, and to even further this point, that in the tournament less than 20 games have ever been taken off of the koreans.The skill gap between the koreans and foreigners is larger than that than between mc and flash, so to compare top bw non koreans and say that theyre not wining thus bw players wont do well is a joke. The scene is dominated by broodwar players because they are better, Moon, the best wc3 player, simply does not do well in sc2 in korea, And if you notice neither does anyone else news to you bro, they played that game on EU server while MC was in Copenhagen . \ actually i didnt mean that game, but just to note mc was aparently jet lagged as eff in that game. Oh and by no means am i defending MC, hes a terrible terrible player I'm sorry but I'm going to have to call you out on this. First you make the false claim that MC only lost the series to Thorzain due to latency issues; you were proven wrong in this. You then go on to make excuses for him as to why he could possibly lose to (God forbid) a Foreigner. And finally when backed up into a corner you cheapen Thorzain's accomplishment by calling MC a terrible player. Come on man.
Im not cheapening it by calling him a bad player, that is what this whole arguement is about. MC is bad, i hate watching him, all he knows how to do is cheesy cute all ins, just like when he played BW. HES A BAD PLAYER. But what i am saying is this, that bring the top non koreans over to korea and have them compete in team leagues and gsl, they will not win, simply put. As a broodwar player it is my dream to see non koreans win, i get nerd chills. But come on guys, there is a reason why when they play live without latency, the statistics are so one sided. Its because the korean server is just ahead of the non korean ones, and the best non koreans would not be champions over their.
And one more thing to boot, mc would never ever in a million years, win an osl, or msl in bw. Matter of fact, he would never leave his b-team. Why, because he is a terrible terrible player. And it translates into sc2, but where as in bw he was a chump with no chance, in sc2 he is a king
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On May 12 2011 16:36 TRAP[yoo] wrote:
finally a big writeup again :D
really enjoyed reading it although i think writeups about players arte even more interesting!
this ^
Good job on the article
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Interesting post from Artosis's twitter.
"The Elephant in the Room" on TL.net is terribly ignorant. A few stats to prove a wrong point, with no real backstory to these pros.
Anyone want to back up our old friend?
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Intrigue, you are my hero.
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*BW fan A and new SC2 fan B sits down for a little chat*
A - "Hey did you know MC, MVP and Nestea used to play the predecessor to SC2 called BW?"
B - "No I didn't"
A - "Yeah and they sucked at that game"
B - "Oh really then how come they are so godly in SC2?"
A - "Because relatively they're the best BW players who made the switch"
B - "Then what about the best players?"
A - "They still play BW since they make a ton in salary and play on TV"
B - "So what you're saying is that a large talent pool of amazing RTS gamers don't play SC2?"
A - "Yeah and they would destroy if they ever made the switch"
B - "So you're saying that in the future we can expect better gamers coming over to SC2 leading to even better games and competition then what we have today?"
A - "Yep"
B - "No man, fuck you"
A - "What?"
B - "Fuck you man, MC"
A - "But you should look forw..."
B - "FUCK YOU, FUCK YOU MC"
A - "But I was just trying to..."
B - "MC, MC, MC!!! *incoherent*
...
Look guys when people started hyping WC3 pros for SC2 I didn't start a gigantic BW vs WC3 slugfest because honestly I didn't know anything about WC3 pros and was just excited about seeing all these guys from different RTS games converge and compete in SC2.
Should be the same in the case of current BW gamers.
So whether you believe the hype or not I can't see that as a fan of SC2 you could feel anything but excitement over the prospect that amazing gamers like Flash or Jaedong could one day start playing SC2.
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A very enjoyable read. Glad to see these points convincingly spelled out, which has been sorely needed for some time now.
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Canada5155 Posts
On May 12 2011 16:43 Snaphoo wrote:Show nested quote +On May 12 2011 16:40 Douillos wrote:On May 12 2011 16:38 mahnini wrote:On May 12 2011 16:35 Fraidnot wrote:On May 12 2011 16:17 mahnini wrote:
regardless of your opinion on the matter i think it's petty and pretty insulting to simply say "this just states the obvious and is written because of bw elitism".
anyway great article, it's a shame people can't accept it for what it is, a very informative and educational piece. Calling the competitive scene a joke, is neither very informative or educational, especially since it's based on speculation. you're picking out ONE line of the entire article. That one line is what is creating such chaos. Analogy: An SC2 mod writes an article entitled "The Elephant In The Room": Competitive BW is dead outside of Korea. It has no sustainable growth, no newbies picking up the game for the first time in any appreciable numbers. SC2 has replaced it on the international scene. Players like Flash and Jaedong are the last gasps of a wheezing e-sport that has already been bumped off of the WCG line-up due to age. How would BW fans react?
Well, because that's laden with factual inaccuracies, not well.
Saying a scene "is dead" with misinformation is not the same as saying "I think this scene is a joke, based on these facts."
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I find it really hard to believe that people can't seem to see the incredible amount of growth potential there is in SC2. I see a lot of people posting about how BW is more about mechanics and micro and SC2 is more about just boxing your army and using 1A.
This is a huge load of crap.
As I am sure tons of people have seen in GSL over the last few months, there has been a huge shift in the play style and the style keeps shifting in what people call the "meta game".
Here is the example I will use to try to explain my point. And dont take this like I am taking any particular side I am just stating one point out of many out there to illustrate my thoughts.
I have seen alot of protoss games on GSL or other pro leagues where the player masses up a very scary 200 supply army and just crushes over the opponent in one big battle. I have heard many people complaining about how "protoss is op" and even Idra has compained about how its nearly impossible to deal with this style of play due to lack of scouting options for zerg etc. etc.
But what I feel is that people are failing to see the bigger picture. They are stuck in a mindset that they need to get out of. SC2 is a very dynamic game with many different ways of dealing with situations. there are very tiny rock paper scissors scenarios in terms of builds, as well as reactionary focused play due to scouting or lack of scouting. you can hit timings in your play where your units are more effective. there is micro based play with drops and counterattacking with fast units, as well as control with forcefields and other spell casting like storm, fungal and emp when it comes to large battles. there are players that will do alot of expanding or focus on macro and economy and honing their build so they can get out those extra few units. The fact taht you can box your entire army and move them with one command doesn't mean that the game is any "easier". Maybe its easier for a player who doesn't know wtf to do in the game. But a really good player will know that if they split their zealots into a different group to lead the army with, or if they split their marines just right against Banes or if they target fire their immortals to hit stalkers instead of zealots that they will come out on top more often than a player who just simply 1A's their army into the opposing players army.
My point is that there are tons of ways to play the game and also tons of ways to find tiny advantages and use your skill to exploit them against weaker players. and I think that as the meta game keeps shifting and people develop new skills and realize that hey maybe if i micro this a bit better, I can get an advantage here. or if I focus more on my macro at this time I can get an advantage here.
Of course theres games that are extremely sloppy at the highest level and yea it makes you want to club a seal or something, like for example San when he first started in the GSL was terrrribad. but then he developed a style that worked for him and was able to make it very far, he actually gave light to the fact that the amulet upgrade was too strong because of his creative play. but just like him lots of players are altering their styles to get wins.
The game is still young, and as blizzard tunes the game for balance and as strategies and skill of the players get better and better the games will just get better and better to watch.
I did agree with the OP in that I am looking forward to seeing players like Flash and Jaedong come over to SC2 but I think that SC2 is its own game that is vastly different than BW. And in order to perform the BW players have to utilize the advantage they have in their mechanics to use some fancy tactics and micro to win some games they maybe shouldnt have due to the countering of builds and such.
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Baltimore, USA22258 Posts
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Yep. If and when we start getting some really, really, talented (and more importantly, motivated) players, we are in for a world of hurt.
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EPT
