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On May 12 2011 17:07 H wrote:Show nested quote +On May 12 2011 17:02 travis wrote:
It is absolutely ridiculous to compare the competition in a game that is less than 1 year old to a game that people have been playing professionally for over 10 years. To call the competition in sc2 a "farce" is to call the competition in most every game other than sc:bw a farce, and that's sc:bw elitism at it's finest(and not in a good way). Except the top competition in SC2, as written in the article, played SC1 professionally for years.. and sucked at it.
And maybe they played chess and sucked at that too? Who cares? A bunch of B teamer and some A- teamer bw players switched and some B teamers rose to the top, with amazing play. So what exactly is the point? That competition can become more fierce? Well duh, the game is less than a year old.
Or is the point that sc:bw has better gamers and that if the pros from it switch to sc2 they will immediately own everyone? Because that's just conjecture and I expect it's not exactly true, and it certainly won't happen instantly anyways. It's also rude.
In 5 years it won't be a sc1 player sitting on the GSL(or whatever tournament) throne. It'll be a sc2 player.
Actually you know what, it already is. Nestea is clearly a sc2 player.
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On May 12 2011 17:18 Zlasher wrote:Show nested quote +On May 12 2011 17:16 TheRhox wrote:On May 12 2011 17:15 Zlasher wrote:On May 12 2011 17:13 bennyaus wrote:On May 12 2011 17:07 H wrote:On May 12 2011 17:02 travis wrote:
It is absolutely ridiculous to compare the competition in a game that is less than 1 year old to a game that people have been playing professionally for over 10 years. To call the competition in sc2 a "farce" is to call the competition in most every game other than sc:bw a farce, and that's sc:bw elitism at it's finest(and not in a good way). Except the top competition in SC2, as written in the article, played SC1 professionally for years.. and sucked at it. Guemchi switched and couldn't qualify for a GSL, then he went back and immediately got back in Stars A team. The skill sets required to be 'good' at both games are completely different. I would argue that mechanics are less of a deciding factor in the result of games in SC2 and as a results the game is fought on strategy and tactics, which means that players who maybe did not have the best mechanics in other RTS games will be able to compete with top level players from Brood War. I am not saying that Brood War didn't have strategy/tactics on the same level, but more weight is put on those factors in SC2 as mechanics are easier. Therefore, a player who is less mechanically talented/less practiced, but has an excellent strategic mind might fare far better in SC2 than Brood War. I do agree that the S class pro-gamers will be excellent in SC2 if they ever switched, because they are excellent in all factors of an RTS. Thats ignoring the fact that Guemchi didn't like the SC2 lifestyle either. Nothing was stopping him from practicing 40 hours a week Except that a lack of dedicated partners means that they can't help you grow either.
Coaching is also large part. Practicing for 40 hours a week doesn't mean much if you don't have the right direction to go in.
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On May 12 2011 17:17 Zeridian wrote:Show nested quote +On May 12 2011 16:31 Kreb wrote:
I'm not sure what the whole fuss is about. The point states that theres 300 semi pros who potentially could dominate SC2. That might be a high or low number, but add to that tens of thousands of people who potentially could do it too had SC2 been a bigger thing worldwide. SC2 is still just game to most people playing it, and theres tons of people who doesnt even know what it is or care for games at all.
And Im not sure why that should lower the level of excitement. Am I supposed to not be excited about the NHL playoffs because hockey is only a big thing in some 6-8 countries worldwide? Thank you, but I'll have my excitement then, both in hockey and SC2.
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Oh, and I found a really the whole writeup lacking one thing. And that is a list of BW players on similar level of skill as MVP/Nestea who switched and did NOT do well. Thats what puts MVP/Nesteas achievements into perspective. Were they the only ones on their level switching, and they still dominate SC2? Well then that indeed points towards there being a lot of hidden SC2 potential among BW players. But were there 50, or 200 other players on that level also switching? Well in that case, their SC2 achievements suddenly become a lot more impressive and we can indeed conclude that it IS a very different game and the new other game called SC2 just fit MVP/Nestea better and they were better prepared to dominate than all the other switchers. And downplaying their achievemtns where so many others failed would be a very risky thing to do.
But just picking the few players who have distinguished themselves from the masses, listing their lackluster BW careers and then downplaying them based on that really doesnt look at thing from other perspectives. You're literally gonna end up with the exact same conclusion no matter which players dominate SC2 unless they were top of the top BW players.
SC2 dominated by BW A-teamer? Conclusion: There tens or hundreds of other A-teamers who would dominate too.
SC2 dominated by BW B-teamer? Conclusion: There hundreds or thousands of other B-teamers who would dominate too.
SC2 dominated by someone less than a BW B-teamer? Conclusion: There thousands and more thousands of other A/B-teamers and others who would dominate too.
See the problem with those conclusions? Unless Flash switches and dominates, you end up with the same conclusion.
Add a comprehensive list of players switching and failing. That will really put thing into nice perspective. pretty much summed up what I thought is the correct approach.
But the thing is, the scene is flooded with them. The kids that are on the korean teams are mostly ex bw b- players, and its not that mc was the best b- player, it could be that his style fit this game at this stage of its lifetime the best, but the point still is, that the b teamers are the s class of sc2. Not just nestea and mc, but bomber and pretty much everyone else on every team
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On May 12 2011 17:16 epik151 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 12 2011 17:12 p0q wrote:
Makes me sad to see such a rant on the front page of TL, i thought this was a place to rejoice at how awesome SC is in general . Not a place to bash at the new guy in class. Of course the top BW pros would be good at sc2 if they switched. I dont get how that means that the current competition in sc2 is a farce.
It's not bashing it's just sharing knowledge.
Wrong. The tone is intended to insult and degrade the current SC2 scene. The tone is what so many people have a problem with. If any number of others had posted an article this inflammatory in various forums on this site it would be locked for causing flame wars. That is the issue here that many people have. Tone.
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If the top guys from BW switch after a few months of practice they will dominate, no question about it. Even above average A-teamers should be able to do that.
But below that level theh might not necessarily be that dominant, as they are a year behind in practice. Sure being good at BW helps a ton, but if one wnats to really be good at SC2 it's a lot more useful to play SC2 instead of BW.
The longer it takes for someone to switch the harder their way for the top will be.
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ok the top wc3 players are playing sc2 right now. why doesn't this translate into them dominating the "mediocre" ex bw players?. the line of thought of this article is flawed.
I don't think bw players gets to get at the top just because of raw talent or 'the right attitude', BW has a lot of baggage into it and if you were to take it seriously you'd have to learn it, the most succesful will be the ones who assimilate all the baggage from sc past. but sc2 is new, it has no baggage, a mere understanding of fundamentals and practice and execution can get you far.
what im saying is that the person who knows most about stacraft 2 isn't as far apart in skill to the person who knows least as is in the case for starcraft 1.
believing that great at BW will translate into great at sc2 is the farse.
edit: tl;dr yeah, what travis said.
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Words of a true oldtimer.
I believe a Broodwar fan will always have some trouble with SC2 "good" players. You didn't mention the foreign scene, but it is almost unbelievable to see ex pro-ams rocking a scene when we knew they were pretty bad. It's funny at the same time because you recognize their game style even after the switch. As a terran, Idra was a macro-focused player, with strong mechanics and strong work-ethics. At the same time, he was predictable and had little game sense, losing constantly to unorthodox build orders. He also complained a lot about imbalance. Artosis was a passive terran player, using the strong defensive abilities of his race, but usually losing as he never attacked. Artosis is still bad, but what about Idra? Today, he is the best foreign Zerg, even if he has stated that he trains a whole less and than him using all-ins is just a way to benefit from the volatility factor of SC2. He thinks as a pro, that's for sure. But what does it says when a B-teamer with less training beat all the "better" SC2 players? It means the scene sucks.
I had wrote a thread, just some days ago i think, about how bad pro-gamers were. I completely agree with Intrigue. People says they are different games. Problem is they are recruiting from the same talent pool: RTS games. And fool you not, on the biggest gaming nations, SC2 is a minor game. In Korea, Broodwar and WC3 reign supreme for RTS games. In China, both of those games are far more important than SC2. Even internationally, League of Legends (LOL) gives SC2 a run for his money. Today, SC2 scene is just a little speculative bubble. OF course, that's a huge chance. A bubble is better than no interest at all, but this happy times should be used to built strong infrastructures (aka real offices for Team Liquid per example) instead of hazardous huge investments (NASL per example... even if i haven't followed it enough to know if it was a success or a failure) that gould fall short in little time.
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@Travis very true. That is why I sincerely hope that the current players have the same drive and dreams/ambitions to become the best players that they can be.
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ALLEYCAT BLUES50584 Posts
On May 12 2011 17:19 Mailing wrote:Show nested quote +On May 12 2011 17:15 ELA wrote:On May 12 2011 17:10 NasD wrote:
Speechless..
I caught the tail end of BW in its glory days so I may not be justified to say this, but I cannot wait until the day that what you are saying is a reality. What is this thing that you cannot wait for that OP is saying? What is he saying? To me, he's basicly saying, that Starcraft 2 isn't interesting to watch, as there are still 300 people with asorted ratings playing Broodwar. Only when these players stop playing Broodwar and start playing SC2, will Starcraft 2 be worth watching? Of course killing the Broodwar scene in the process, who cares about that right? Surely not the OP. If only they all played Starcraft 2... Then don't watch it? If brood war dies due to lack of fans, it's majority rule. It doesn't matter if the game is better, or the players are better, or the fans of that game are better. Popularity is what makes money in a thriving video game world. If Flash is so fucking good, that the OP thinks he would never lose in SC2, why not switch ASAP? If you win even HALF of the upcoming Starcraft 2 tourneys for 2011, you will make over $500-800k.
simply because hes not interested and hes not really interested only in money.
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I pitty you guys who see every game thru your BW glassess. There's just no hope for you ever enjoying anything else than your precious little game. Im not even going to write how wrong you are - its not worth it, just like there is no point arguing with Bill O'Reilly.
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After intially posting, rereading the OP several times, and trawling through the 35 pages thus far, I've actually come to accept that only one thing in this article do I really find myself at odds with:
... we have been skirting around this topic ever since Beta now, so I’ll just f**king say it:
The competition in SC2 thus far has been a farce.
"we" refers to whom? I certainly didn't think that, many new SC2 users didn't think that. By "we" is he refering to BW vets and their fans? Although it's just a two-letter word, the use of "we" in the opening of his article makes me wonder what group of people is the OP writing about, if indeed there are many of us who didn't think the competition of SC2 is a farse at all?
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On May 12 2011 17:20 travis wrote:Show nested quote +On May 12 2011 17:07 H wrote:On May 12 2011 17:02 travis wrote:
It is absolutely ridiculous to compare the competition in a game that is less than 1 year old to a game that people have been playing professionally for over 10 years. To call the competition in sc2 a "farce" is to call the competition in most every game other than sc:bw a farce, and that's sc:bw elitism at it's finest(and not in a good way). Except the top competition in SC2, as written in the article, played SC1 professionally for years.. and sucked at it. And maybe they played chess and sucked at that too? Who cares? A bunch of B teamer and some A- teamer bw players switched and some B teamers rose to the top, with amazing play. So what exactly is the point? That competition can become more fierce? Well duh, the game is less than a year old. Or is the point that sc:bw has better gamers and that if the pros from it switch to sc2 they will immediately own everyone? Because that's just conjecture and I expect it's not exactly true, and it certainly won't happen instantly anyways. It's also rude. In 5 years it won't be a sc1 player sitting on the GSL(or whatever tournament) throne. It'll be a sc2 player. Actually you know what, it already is. Nestea is clearly a sc2 player.
I have to agree here, and didn't MVP beat Flash once in a scbw game?
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While you make some solid points in this article I would also argue that it is incredibly biased towards Brood War. Another solid point is that there is no way we can be 100% sure Flash would do great in SC2, its a different game and is he even capable of relearning the game? Also it can be easily argued that some of those "average" BW players simply are better at SC2 then they were at BW. You don't even seem to consider that possibility and the only elephant in the room that I see here is this article.
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i feel this was a waste of my time....... pointless to say people who don't play starcraft two but are the best at broodwar would dominate at starcraft 2. its a different game and you just have to face that. now they could be the best but until the make the switch no one can really know.
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How does this help esports? It doesn't.. Stating some well known facts, over exaggerating others, not giving credit to people.. I dislike this article. I myself am a huge Brood War fan and hope that our new game evolves at the same direction, and I think it does more and more with time, but the negativistic approach here won't help so I sincerely hope no such articles appear anymore.
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On May 12 2011 16:55 Comeh wrote:Show nested quote +On May 12 2011 16:52 J.E.G. wrote:I read the "What's your point?" section and still don't see the point. Lesser players saw and avenue for success and took it; its not that complicated. On May 12 2011 13:32 intrigue wrote:
My prediction: there will be another influx of (T)MVP-level (A-class) pros into SC2 after deals fall through during the next August free agency. With the announcement of Heart of the Swarm for Spring 2012, it's likely they will decide to get a head start. This is the only non-subjective-taken-out-of-context part of the post. Money will dry up for BW over time, and the heavy weights will transfer to SC2. I'm curious why you think "money will dry out" for scbw - if money hasn't dried out in over 10 years, why would it dry out now? Unless sc2 starts stealing a majority of the scbw crowd, which hasn't been seen to be true in korea at the moment (according to reports), scbw is still the powerhouse over there. Really, the lack of perspective a lot of the newer sc2 users have is quite amazing - they don't really see what an amazing accomplishment scbw in korea truly is, and what an amazing and perfect game it is. It's pretty sad really. Edit: and for those that comment on how scbw is dying - there really hasn't been the level of success that scbw has had either. Until the game is truly established and accomplishes an "esport level" in a country (even in korea, which we haven't really seen it taken over like bw has), then I'm going to consider scbw more successful.
Because SC2 already has a much larger international scene with multiple tournaments and leagues getting huge exposure around the glove, and its not even as good of a game as brood war is. Brood war will get left behind as talent shifts to SC2.
<STRIKE> From what i can find, the last patch for bw came out in late 2008, 10 years after the release of brood war. That means 10 years of balance changes to meet the demand of the then-growing BW scene.</STRIKE> Over time, SC2 (which has been around for 10% of the time BW has, yet has nearly instantly surpassed BW in world-wide demand) will become a better, more stable game, there will be higher monetary incentives to play it, causing the big fish to switch, causing their fan bases to follow suit, causing demand for BW to drop, and sadly, dry out.
Don't get me wrong, most of the games of SC2 i see are pretty boring, only a few of which that can compete with the epic-ness of BW, but to expect Blizzard to put out a game that is instantly more competitive and amazing than BW is absolutely ridiculous.
Edit: Last balance batch for BW was in 2001 with 1.08 patch, which means it was out 3 times as long as sc2, with an additional 10 years of people developing strategies
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On May 12 2011 17:23 Butcherski wrote:
I pitty you guys who see every game thru your BW glassess. There's just no hope for you ever enjoying anything else than your precious little game. Im not even going to write how wrong you are - its not worth it, just like there is no point arguing with Bill O'Reilly.
I don't only see games through BW glasses thank you very much. I already said I sincerely hope that the current players improve and play great games (which I have seen already 5-6 that left me breathless and excited, the surge of adrenaline.) Of course they are two different games. However, it is pointless to simply ignore the fact that the powerhouses of SC1 are switching.
The point is, the current players just do not practice enough yet. They really need to get more training in. Otherwise, I am really afraid for my current players that I love.
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On May 12 2011 17:19 Mailing wrote:Show nested quote +On May 12 2011 17:15 ELA wrote:On May 12 2011 17:10 NasD wrote:
Speechless..
I caught the tail end of BW in its glory days so I may not be justified to say this, but I cannot wait until the day that what you are saying is a reality. What is this thing that you cannot wait for that OP is saying? What is he saying? To me, he's basicly saying, that Starcraft 2 isn't interesting to watch, as there are still 300 people with asorted ratings playing Broodwar. Only when these players stop playing Broodwar and start playing SC2, will Starcraft 2 be worth watching? Of course killing the Broodwar scene in the process, who cares about that right? Surely not the OP. If only they all played Starcraft 2... Then don't watch it? If brood war dies due to lack of fans, it's majority rule. It doesn't matter if the game is better, or the players are better, or the fans of that game are better. Popularity is what makes money in a thriving video game world. If Flash is so fucking good, that the OP thinks he would never lose in SC2, why not switch ASAP? If you win even HALF of the upcoming Starcraft 2 tourneys for 2011, you will make over $500-800k.
Because he enjoys BW, makes that already playing BW and more...
I dont think there is really anything wrong with what intrigue wrote. I think he's right. I mean look at Nada. The guy isn't living in a pro house and is going to school while playing in GSL. Yet he has made how many round of 8's in the GSL so far? Three or four, right? He clearly isn't on top of his game, yet is still one of the best sc2 players there is right now. And when he made the switch he wasn't on the top of BW.
As the game ages, those with the skill will really shine. Right now it is young and volatile. As it gets figured out more, we will see those who are really skilled and talented rise to the top. But that won't be for awhile.
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On May 12 2011 17:25 Nolot wrote:Show nested quote +On May 12 2011 17:20 travis wrote:On May 12 2011 17:07 H wrote:On May 12 2011 17:02 travis wrote:
It is absolutely ridiculous to compare the competition in a game that is less than 1 year old to a game that people have been playing professionally for over 10 years. To call the competition in sc2 a "farce" is to call the competition in most every game other than sc:bw a farce, and that's sc:bw elitism at it's finest(and not in a good way). Except the top competition in SC2, as written in the article, played SC1 professionally for years.. and sucked at it. And maybe they played chess and sucked at that too? Who cares? A bunch of B teamer and some A- teamer bw players switched and some B teamers rose to the top, with amazing play. So what exactly is the point? That competition can become more fierce? Well duh, the game is less than a year old. Or is the point that sc:bw has better gamers and that if the pros from it switch to sc2 they will immediately own everyone? Because that's just conjecture and I expect it's not exactly true, and it certainly won't happen instantly anyways. It's also rude. In 5 years it won't be a sc1 player sitting on the GSL(or whatever tournament) throne. It'll be a sc2 player. Actually you know what, it already is. Nestea is clearly a sc2 player. I have to agree here, and didn't MVP beat Flash once in a scbw game?
He beat him once in a 50 minute TvT that honestly could have gone either way in the last second. Flash won the other games in total dominating fashion.
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Insightful post, but not very intelligent. SC2 is so new that it is far more random than SC:BW, meaning the following:
1) practicing day and night for something that's often settled by pokergames, randomness and current balance state, isn't really that smart. (Check, for instance, is one of the hardest practicing pros in the scene, but has had little yield from it, simply because of a) playing zerg, b) the ground he's standing on, changes under his feet).
2) Playing "early SC2" requires different skills than "late SC:BW". To play in a game where basic unit control is made as simple as it should be, is one huge difference. As mentioned above, the constant metagame and balance changes, is another factor. To put it shortly, having skills in an old, studied game is completely different from being good at an immature, constantly changing one.
In other words, there is absolutely nothing that dictates that Flash / Bisu / Jaedong would do well in the current SC2, in fact, they could, and would, get randomly cheesed out or dominated by imbalanced moves, as we see happens to many of the top players mentioned in this article. Secondly, the current SC2 top players are good at SC2, and deserve the credit they get.
This comparison between the current top and former lower tier BW-players is pretty pointless, if you ask me.
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