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On May 12 2011 17:28 Nolot wrote:Show nested quote +On May 12 2011 17:27 setzer wrote:On May 12 2011 17:25 Nolot wrote:On May 12 2011 17:20 travis wrote:On May 12 2011 17:07 H wrote:On May 12 2011 17:02 travis wrote:
It is absolutely ridiculous to compare the competition in a game that is less than 1 year old to a game that people have been playing professionally for over 10 years. To call the competition in sc2 a "farce" is to call the competition in most every game other than sc:bw a farce, and that's sc:bw elitism at it's finest(and not in a good way). Except the top competition in SC2, as written in the article, played SC1 professionally for years.. and sucked at it. And maybe they played chess and sucked at that too? Who cares? A bunch of B teamer and some A- teamer bw players switched and some B teamers rose to the top, with amazing play. So what exactly is the point? That competition can become more fierce? Well duh, the game is less than a year old. Or is the point that sc:bw has better gamers and that if the pros from it switch to sc2 they will immediately own everyone? Because that's just conjecture and I expect it's not exactly true, and it certainly won't happen instantly anyways. It's also rude. In 5 years it won't be a sc1 player sitting on the GSL(or whatever tournament) throne. It'll be a sc2 player. Actually you know what, it already is. Nestea is clearly a sc2 player. I have to agree here, and didn't MVP beat Flash once in a scbw game? He beat him once in a 50 minute TvT that honestly could have gone either way in the last second. Flash won the other games in total dominating fashion. So you are telling me that someone who can last 50mins in a TvT vs Flash, and win it in the end sucked? That doesn't make any sense to me
Think about it this way. MVP was good enough to beat Flash in a 50 min game and has probably been the best SCBW player to switch to sc2. He also happens to be one of, if not the best sc2 player. Coincidence?
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On May 12 2011 17:36 lexiphanic wrote:
I would actually be interested in discussing the points of the article, however, as the tone of the article is extremely inflammatory I really have no interest in taking it seriously.
If you actually go and read it though, you can note that every single point it tries to make is based on assumptions.
Honestly, it looks like the kind of post that would normally get someone banned from TL, but instead is featured on the front page as some kind of amazing revelation.
a lot of people feel this way about it, since a mod or staff member made it, they won't get in any real trouble. It even gets "hey look at me" front page dibs.
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On May 12 2011 17:31 Kreb wrote:Show nested quote +On May 12 2011 17:21 gk_ender wrote:On May 12 2011 17:17 Zeridian wrote:On May 12 2011 16:31 Kreb wrote:
I'm not sure what the whole fuss is about. The point states that theres 300 semi pros who potentially could dominate SC2. That might be a high or low number, but add to that tens of thousands of people who potentially could do it too had SC2 been a bigger thing worldwide. SC2 is still just game to most people playing it, and theres tons of people who doesnt even know what it is or care for games at all.
And Im not sure why that should lower the level of excitement. Am I supposed to not be excited about the NHL playoffs because hockey is only a big thing in some 6-8 countries worldwide? Thank you, but I'll have my excitement then, both in hockey and SC2.
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Oh, and I found a really the whole writeup lacking one thing. And that is a list of BW players on similar level of skill as MVP/Nestea who switched and did NOT do well. Thats what puts MVP/Nesteas achievements into perspective. Were they the only ones on their level switching, and they still dominate SC2? Well then that indeed points towards there being a lot of hidden SC2 potential among BW players. But were there 50, or 200 other players on that level also switching? Well in that case, their SC2 achievements suddenly become a lot more impressive and we can indeed conclude that it IS a very different game and the new other game called SC2 just fit MVP/Nestea better and they were better prepared to dominate than all the other switchers. And downplaying their achievemtns where so many others failed would be a very risky thing to do.
But just picking the few players who have distinguished themselves from the masses, listing their lackluster BW careers and then downplaying them based on that really doesnt look at thing from other perspectives. You're literally gonna end up with the exact same conclusion no matter which players dominate SC2 unless they were top of the top BW players.
SC2 dominated by BW A-teamer? Conclusion: There tens or hundreds of other A-teamers who would dominate too.
SC2 dominated by BW B-teamer? Conclusion: There hundreds or thousands of other B-teamers who would dominate too.
SC2 dominated by someone less than a BW B-teamer? Conclusion: There thousands and more thousands of other A/B-teamers and others who would dominate too.
See the problem with those conclusions? Unless Flash switches and dominates, you end up with the same conclusion.
Add a comprehensive list of players switching and failing. That will really put thing into nice perspective. pretty much summed up what I thought is the correct approach. But the thing is, the scene is flooded with them. The kids that are on the korean teams are mostly ex bw b- players, and its not that mc was the best b- player, it could be that his style fit this game at this stage of its lifetime the best, but the point still is, that the b teamers are the s class of sc2. Not just nestea and mc, but bomber and pretty much everyone else on every team So that means that lots of old B-Teamars switched, all together they became the general mass of SC2 players, forming SC2 teams? And some of those (MVP/Nestea/etc) managed to get ahead of the curve and dominate? That sounds about right. Sounds very logical too. So how does that apply to any possible A-teamers switching? Well the probably just means that should same amount of A-teamers switch, they'd produce a similar or slightly higher amount of top SC2 players, but the general bunch would just join the regular SC2 bunch. Or put in number (obviously just made up numbers to illustrate the point): If 100 B-Teamers switch and create 2 Nesteas and 30 regular Code A/S players, then its likely that should 100 A-Teamers switch, they'd produce some 3-4 Nesteas and maybe 40 regular Code A/S players. That would be logical. But does that mean the current SC2 top is a farce? Thats really a pretty strong statement.
one thing
YOU DONT GET HOW BAD MC IS AT BROODWAR
What were saying is that the differnce between a b teamer and an a teamer is night a day. The bench warmers are better by magnitudes, than mc or nestea. And that if 100 of them switched over wed be more likley to see 4-7 nesteas and like 50-60 code s/a gamers. But those would be the bench warmers. There exist a group of at least 100 pro gamers that mc could never even dream of touching. For example, Idra was ranked 200 something in kespa, and was considered a great b teamer. That is what were saying that mc exist on such a lower level that he literally scrubbed the toilets for these kids (i am not joking about this, this is a fact). The differnce between these kids and mc is the differnce between mc and a Platinum or possibly even a gold player. So no, it would not be just 3-4.
And no one is saying it is a farce, were saying just way for what is in store
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This article is just speculation based on some statistics thrown together in a misleading fashion. The fact is, SC2 is not BW. There is no way of knowing how the skill levels of the best BW pros will translate to a completely different game until that happens. Just throwing out some stats of some players doesn't prove anything about how Flash or Jaedong are going to perform if they ever switch to SC2.
I just really can't believe this was allowed to be a front page featured article here when it basically slanders the entire sc2 playerbase and calls all of their achievements a farce, simply because some people who play a different game have not come over. If they want to come prove themselves in sc2, more power to them, but I'm sick of all you bw elitists giving these guys verbal rimjobs all day speculating about how they'll roflstomp when they switch, with no real proof whatsoever.
What if those guys never switch over? Is sc2 competition never "real" then? Pretty stupid logic in my opinion. Being the best at BW will not automatically make these guys completely dominate all the current talent in sc2. It simply isn't the same game, and they need to come prove themselves like everyone else. I mean seriously, you guys are acting like Flash and Jaedong are ALREADY the best sc2 players in the world, without even seeing them play one game.
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I think we can all agree that there are a ton of strong opinions in the article, perhaps too big for any of us to resist. This article is a mere possibility, I think the writer did stretch it a bit far with saying the current matches don't feel really real to him. It is truly real and kicking. I hope game sense improves though, and it currently is.
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Competition arises whenever two or more parties strive for a goal which cannot be shared. By definition the incentives and people involved trying to master SC2 is far stronger than the current BW scene. In Korea, maybe not, but I don't really care about Korea because going there to compete for long periods sounds like a nightmare and I definately don't want to solely be watching Korean based broadcasts. This probably sounds like blasphemy to the veteran BW players who romanticize Korea, but its the cold hard honest truth.
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On May 12 2011 17:25 J.E.G. wrote:Show nested quote +On May 12 2011 16:55 Comeh wrote:On May 12 2011 16:52 J.E.G. wrote:I read the "What's your point?" section and still don't see the point. Lesser players saw and avenue for success and took it; its not that complicated. On May 12 2011 13:32 intrigue wrote:
My prediction: there will be another influx of (T)MVP-level (A-class) pros into SC2 after deals fall through during the next August free agency. With the announcement of Heart of the Swarm for Spring 2012, it's likely they will decide to get a head start. This is the only non-subjective-taken-out-of-context part of the post. Money will dry up for BW over time, and the heavy weights will transfer to SC2. I'm curious why you think "money will dry out" for scbw - if money hasn't dried out in over 10 years, why would it dry out now? Unless sc2 starts stealing a majority of the scbw crowd, which hasn't been seen to be true in korea at the moment (according to reports), scbw is still the powerhouse over there. Really, the lack of perspective a lot of the newer sc2 users have is quite amazing - they don't really see what an amazing accomplishment scbw in korea truly is, and what an amazing and perfect game it is. It's pretty sad really. Edit: and for those that comment on how scbw is dying - there really hasn't been the level of success that scbw has had either. Until the game is truly established and accomplishes an "esport level" in a country (even in korea, which we haven't really seen it taken over like bw has), then I'm going to consider scbw more successful. Because SC2 already has a much larger international scene with multiple tournaments and leagues getting huge exposure around the glove, and its not even as good of a game as brood war is. Brood war will get left behind as talent shifts to SC2. From what i can find, the last patch for bw came out in late 2008, 10 years after the release of brood war. That means 10 years of balance changes to meet the demand of the then-growing BW scene. Over time, SC2 (which has been around for 10% of the time BW has, yet has nearly instantly surpassed BW in world-wide demand) will become a better, more stable game, there will be higher monetary incentives to play it, causing the big fish to switch, causing their fan bases to follow suit, causing demand for BW to drop, and sadly, dry out. Don't get me wrong, most of the games of SC2 i see are pretty boring, only a few of which that can compete with the epic-ness of BW, but to expect Blizzard to put out a game that is instantly more competitive and amazing than BW is absolutely ridiculous.
lol perhaps you should check the patch list for BW and see how many balance patches it had (hint: last one was in 2001)
Hell I'll even help you out http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft/Patches_1.01-1.07
SC2 in like 6 months had more balance changes than BW in its entirety
and the current E-Sport "boom" is still nothing compared to the attention gaming got in the early 2000s with painkiller and such. Guess what it was a bubble and died out completely, while BW and Korea was the only scene to actually build a lasting infrastructure.
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For me, not knowing much about BW, this was a really interesting write-up! The question is pretty much when, and if, BW will dissapear from the pro scene and if the BW pros then will transfer over to sc2.
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On May 12 2011 17:31 darkscream wrote:
More of the usual TL drivel, O HARKEN THE DAYS OF BROOD WAR, WHERE PLAYERS WERE BETTER AND PEOPLE WHO READ ABOUT THE PLAYERS WERE ALSO BETTER
give me a break, if these guys had any SC2 skill they'd be playing SC2 since that's where the money is, obviously they are super powerful at broodwar and I hope they stay there, as the game is ancient and without major following outside of korea and teamliquid.net
also, how come you can write what is essentially a troll article? If I wrote a troll post on the forums I'd get banned. Yet this article does nothing but
a) make the BW nostalgia crew fap with anticipation
b) anger/confuse newer fans of SC2 who don't give a rat's ass about BW
c) bait trolling
This post sums up how I feel about this entire thing, and is written in a much cleverer way than I ever could have.
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Wait a minute, is this supposed to be provoking?
Damn you TL mods.
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On May 12 2011 17:16 gk_ender wrote:Show nested quote +On May 12 2011 17:10 Novalisk wrote:
As the game is now, you will not have genius players dominating everyone with absolute certainty. Build Order victories are just too common compared with BW, and as a young game SC2 is prone to handing out victories to the guy that came up with a better plan beforehand.
This is another reason the top BW pros are not switching over. The game is young and ripe with un-discovered strategies that could take a win away from you, and many would argue it's also more volatile than BW(see IdrA's regular rants about zerg scouting for example). ok not true People need to understand something else. FLASH HAS BAD MECHANICS, compartivley to lets say bisu. This is an absolute fact, so much so that bisu uses strategies that take advantage of the fact that flash is not as fast or mechanically strong as him. Flash plays smarter and has better plans than everyone else. It is his build orders and strategic thinking that win him games (strategey can mean things like let me build an extra armory or let get 5 factories to macro btw). Idra rants because the game is random. That the game may be perfectly balanced someday, but it is still a failure if it comes down to coin flips, not that its young and strange.
This is actually very true.
Best is regularly sent out to snipe flash in winners league, simply because he can macro better than any protoss player on the planet. The way SKT deals with flash in proleague, or for sniping in winner's league, is to just have BeSt use his inane ability to out-macro him, and run him over before he gets his 3-3 turtle 200/200 push. Bisu often loses to flash because, although his multitasking is arguable the best in the world, he doesn't have the raw macro power that someone like best has. Bisu's multitasking specialty is harnessed the most in his PvZ matchup (also know as BvZ). Flash, on the otherhand, has just good macro and good multitask, nothing like that of a bisu or best level in multitask/macro, but his decision making, overall strategy, and tactical use of the maps is by far the strongest of any pro gamer, closely followed by jaedong. Flash's brainpower and intellect is what makes him so dominant, which is why he is so special. He is not a mechanical god (although, that's not to say he has below-average mechanics), but because of his other talents, he stands high on a pedestal above everyone.
With all of that being said, success and "skill" can come from a lot of different areas. Some people's skills may not transfer over to sc2 and have the same magnitude that they did in BW (for example, BeSt might not be able to just flood units at someone and strait up out-macro people like he does now, due to how simplified the macro mechanic is now). Bisu's ridiculous multitasking would definitely transfer over with huge success, given how few players have shown his caliber of it. Bisu can be in 7 different places at once, where most SC2 pros have no come close to showing that yet. Flash's brainpower would 100% transfer over, and possibly be amplified even more, given the fact that sc2 has been changing a lot recently, due to patches and new maps. I think that a flash or jaedong would 100% dominate sc2 if they were to swtich, but I don't see why they would, when they are in love with their current games and dominating them with good pay and fan support. Would be interesting to see, though.
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On May 12 2011 17:37 Zeridian wrote:Show nested quote +On May 12 2011 17:36 lexiphanic wrote:
I would actually be interested in discussing the points of the article, however, as the tone of the article is extremely inflammatory I really have no interest in taking it seriously.
If you actually go and read it though, you can note that every single point it tries to make is based on assumptions.
Honestly, it looks like the kind of post that would normally get someone banned from TL, but instead is featured on the front page as some kind of amazing revelation. a lot of people feel this way about it, since a mod or staff member made it, they won't get in any real trouble. It even gets "hey look at me" front page dibs.
It is an editorial. That is what editorials are. This is an opinion piece, and people are blasting it because they are measuring it against other criteria than the ones that it was written to fulfill. This is intrigue's opinion, and that is all it was ever intended to be. Don't play a martyr because the writer is a mod, and don't call anything you disagree with a troll, those are both insulting actions to take.
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Lets not forget that a huge contributing factor to sc:bw pros being so successful at the game is the thousands of hours they spend meticulously going over split-second timings, map positioning, unit compositions, and strategy.
Now if they were to switch to sc2 all those hours spent memorizing these things will not be of any use to them.
A major part of the competitive "edge" that they have honed over the years that has has helped make them legends in bw will not help them succeed in a game that has completely different timings, builds, etc.
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lol is this guy trolling? xD
User was warned for this post
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so bw is better than sc2. cool thanks
User was warned for this post
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I think it's time I made my exit. There is a lot of anger in this thread, from both "sides". I leave with saying this. Sc2 is a new game that will see growth and is exciting to watch both players and teams mature. ScBw is a game that is relatively figured out (and suddenly, QUEENS) but there is a lot of tense/exciting moments just from the mechanics that I feel Sc2 misses a bit)
And I would appreciate if the Newer fans of Sc 2 stop making snarky remarks. It's irritating to see. Yes, I'm talking to the the buggers above me with one line posts. So insightful, thanks as well.
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Btw, it would be pretty cool if someone from the staff could motivate the decision to put this on the front page. From what I've seen so far, TL admins has been working kinda hard to minimize the hate which is being thrown around in all threads where BW vs SC2 discussions spawn. And god knows how many times I've read notes at the top of a thread about "Do not turn this into a heated BW vs SC2 disussion". Yet this makes the front page, and not only is it clearly biased towards one side, it's also the biggest BW vs SC2-flamebait I've probably seen on TL since I joined. There is no way this thread would ever turn into something else. And it's on the front page.
Obviously I'm skeptical about the decision to put it on the front page, but i'll reserve my judgement for when I see a motivation why it was put there. So it would be very much appreciated to get one. Thanks in advance.
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Yeah I believe the game is too different to say they will do better, also this topic is in overkill but I am a fan of sc:bw players.
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On May 12 2011 17:37 Zeridian wrote:Show nested quote +On May 12 2011 17:36 lexiphanic wrote:
I would actually be interested in discussing the points of the article, however, as the tone of the article is extremely inflammatory I really have no interest in taking it seriously.
If you actually go and read it though, you can note that every single point it tries to make is based on assumptions.
Honestly, it looks like the kind of post that would normally get someone banned from TL, but instead is featured on the front page as some kind of amazing revelation. a lot of people feel this way about it, since a mod or staff member made it, they won't get in any real trouble. It even gets "hey look at me" front page dibs.
Listen what people do not understand is this. MC is laughably bad ay bw, which is a good thing. Were saying just wait till the crazy monsters of brood war get there, you guys are gunna flip shit with the things they come up with. Were saying (hopiing sc2 because a balanced complex game) that you guys havent seen anything yet.
I know it sounds harsh because were saying mc is bad, but what were really saying is were glad that if he can switch over and do good, that must mean the game is good. Why, becuase as bad as he is, hed wipe the floor with any non korean who looked at him wrong at brood war, which means that all that talent and skill must translate into sc2, which means sc2 must have a good skill ceiling. Which makes me excited to see what happens when stork gets to use collosi
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How can this massive troll post be in the front page??
User was warned for this post
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EPT
