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On May 12 2011 17:39 Lemonwalrus wrote:Show nested quote +On May 12 2011 17:37 Zeridian wrote:On May 12 2011 17:36 lexiphanic wrote:
I would actually be interested in discussing the points of the article, however, as the tone of the article is extremely inflammatory I really have no interest in taking it seriously.
If you actually go and read it though, you can note that every single point it tries to make is based on assumptions.
Honestly, it looks like the kind of post that would normally get someone banned from TL, but instead is featured on the front page as some kind of amazing revelation. a lot of people feel this way about it, since a mod or staff member made it, they won't get in any real trouble. It even gets "hey look at me" front page dibs. It is an editorial. That is what editorials are. This is an opinion piece, and people are blasting it because they are measuring it against other criteria than the ones that it was written to fulfill. This is intrigue's opinion, and that is all it was ever intended to be. Don't play a martyr because the writer is a mod, and don't call anything you disagree with a troll, those are both insulting actions to take.
Well, considering the tone, I think it is indeed 'trolling' for responses. Thus, making the author a troll.
Starting out by calling GSL champions "Bad" is definitely trolling. It's also inflamatory. That makes it flamebait as well.
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On May 12 2011 17:36 jmbthirteen wrote:Show nested quote +On May 12 2011 17:28 Nolot wrote:On May 12 2011 17:27 setzer wrote:On May 12 2011 17:25 Nolot wrote:On May 12 2011 17:20 travis wrote:On May 12 2011 17:07 H wrote:On May 12 2011 17:02 travis wrote:
It is absolutely ridiculous to compare the competition in a game that is less than 1 year old to a game that people have been playing professionally for over 10 years. To call the competition in sc2 a "farce" is to call the competition in most every game other than sc:bw a farce, and that's sc:bw elitism at it's finest(and not in a good way). Except the top competition in SC2, as written in the article, played SC1 professionally for years.. and sucked at it. And maybe they played chess and sucked at that too? Who cares? A bunch of B teamer and some A- teamer bw players switched and some B teamers rose to the top, with amazing play. So what exactly is the point? That competition can become more fierce? Well duh, the game is less than a year old. Or is the point that sc:bw has better gamers and that if the pros from it switch to sc2 they will immediately own everyone? Because that's just conjecture and I expect it's not exactly true, and it certainly won't happen instantly anyways. It's also rude. In 5 years it won't be a sc1 player sitting on the GSL(or whatever tournament) throne. It'll be a sc2 player. Actually you know what, it already is. Nestea is clearly a sc2 player. I have to agree here, and didn't MVP beat Flash once in a scbw game? He beat him once in a 50 minute TvT that honestly could have gone either way in the last second. Flash won the other games in total dominating fashion. So you are telling me that someone who can last 50mins in a TvT vs Flash, and win it in the end sucked? That doesn't make any sense to me Think about it this way. MVP was good enough to beat Flash in a 50 min game and has probably been the best SCBW player to switch to sc2. He also happens to be one of, if not the best sc2 player. Coincidence?
I can't believe this thread lead to people thinking MVP was good. Flash is turtle terran. Even canata can last an hour against him. Beating flash after 50 mins isn't far from beating him during midgame 'cause its TvT. He just won the final engagement, so lasting 50 mins isn't actually that impressive.
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i agree it is a farce, namely because tournaments are willingly paying top dollar, or even beyond that, to pay out rewards to players who they know are not as deserving. They do this in hopes of attracting the players that are deserving, but it's not working and I don't see it working any time soon.
Broodwar may become the first and only computer game to transcend graphical limitations and become an actual sport, (not e-sport).
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On May 12 2011 17:38 Creep wrote:Show nested quote +On May 12 2011 17:31 darkscream wrote:
More of the usual TL drivel, O HARKEN THE DAYS OF BROOD WAR, WHERE PLAYERS WERE BETTER AND PEOPLE WHO READ ABOUT THE PLAYERS WERE ALSO BETTER
give me a break, if these guys had any SC2 skill they'd be playing SC2 since that's where the money is, obviously they are super powerful at broodwar and I hope they stay there, as the game is ancient and without major following outside of korea and teamliquid.net
also, how come you can write what is essentially a troll article? If I wrote a troll post on the forums I'd get banned. Yet this article does nothing but
a) make the BW nostalgia crew fap with anticipation
b) anger/confuse newer fans of SC2 who don't give a rat's ass about BW
c) bait trolling This post sums up how I feel about this entire thing, and is written in a much cleverer way than I ever could have.
The money isnt in sc2... Not in Korea. Its still in BW.
And for those so offended by this being on the front page of TL, ever think that the point of this article was to create all this discussion, you know create traffic and dialog? Kinda what TL is meant for.
Just because its on the front page doesn't mean you have to agree with it. I find it quite hilarious that people take such offense to this. How about you guys go write an article saying why you disagree?
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I've seen disappointing OSL finals and remember when players were taking bribes to throw games? Yeah, I'm a BW vet as well but there were times that the BW competition was a farce too. I think this entire article doesn't really deserve to be a front page post because it's not even "News", just a bunch of "Everything your game can do my game can do better" nonsense.
What RTS games were Flash and JD pro at before playing BW? Oh wait they only played BW.... So why can't the future best SC2 player just be some 15yr old kid that picks up SC2 first in Korea? See my logic here....
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awesome read, really enjoyed it!
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So, MC wasn't successful in BW.... that means he's bad now? Because nobody ever learns anything or improves, ever... amirite?!
Sucking in the past means you forever suck, it's not possible that he could have worked hard and become a really strong player, it must just mean competition in sc2 isn't real, right guys?!
FFS.
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So this long article just want to point out that BW top pro can pwan any SC2 pro right now and break the game? What is this for? To discourage current players in SC2? I really don't get it.
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Must we once again have the
"BW players would own if they went to SC2" thread?
Can we not as a whole understand that not only is that a ----ing obvious statement to make as they have the basis for mechanics, they are good at macro, micro, keeping calm, etc..
On the whole though i disagree wholeheartedly that Flash/JD/[enter BW player here] would start instantly winning everything, it has taken players a year to develop their understanding and knowledge of the game, just because Flash learned how to turtle in a few weeks doesn't mean he'd maintain his 71% record in SC2.
The game is still too volatile, the best players don't always win, new builds are coming up monthly where as BW has had 8 years of Pro-gaming maturity already.
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On May 12 2011 17:37 gk_ender wrote:Show nested quote +On May 12 2011 17:31 Kreb wrote:On May 12 2011 17:21 gk_ender wrote:On May 12 2011 17:17 Zeridian wrote:On May 12 2011 16:31 Kreb wrote:
I'm not sure what the whole fuss is about. The point states that theres 300 semi pros who potentially could dominate SC2. That might be a high or low number, but add to that tens of thousands of people who potentially could do it too had SC2 been a bigger thing worldwide. SC2 is still just game to most people playing it, and theres tons of people who doesnt even know what it is or care for games at all.
And Im not sure why that should lower the level of excitement. Am I supposed to not be excited about the NHL playoffs because hockey is only a big thing in some 6-8 countries worldwide? Thank you, but I'll have my excitement then, both in hockey and SC2.
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Oh, and I found a really the whole writeup lacking one thing. And that is a list of BW players on similar level of skill as MVP/Nestea who switched and did NOT do well. Thats what puts MVP/Nesteas achievements into perspective. Were they the only ones on their level switching, and they still dominate SC2? Well then that indeed points towards there being a lot of hidden SC2 potential among BW players. But were there 50, or 200 other players on that level also switching? Well in that case, their SC2 achievements suddenly become a lot more impressive and we can indeed conclude that it IS a very different game and the new other game called SC2 just fit MVP/Nestea better and they were better prepared to dominate than all the other switchers. And downplaying their achievemtns where so many others failed would be a very risky thing to do.
But just picking the few players who have distinguished themselves from the masses, listing their lackluster BW careers and then downplaying them based on that really doesnt look at thing from other perspectives. You're literally gonna end up with the exact same conclusion no matter which players dominate SC2 unless they were top of the top BW players.
SC2 dominated by BW A-teamer? Conclusion: There tens or hundreds of other A-teamers who would dominate too.
SC2 dominated by BW B-teamer? Conclusion: There hundreds or thousands of other B-teamers who would dominate too.
SC2 dominated by someone less than a BW B-teamer? Conclusion: There thousands and more thousands of other A/B-teamers and others who would dominate too.
See the problem with those conclusions? Unless Flash switches and dominates, you end up with the same conclusion.
Add a comprehensive list of players switching and failing. That will really put thing into nice perspective. pretty much summed up what I thought is the correct approach. But the thing is, the scene is flooded with them. The kids that are on the korean teams are mostly ex bw b- players, and its not that mc was the best b- player, it could be that his style fit this game at this stage of its lifetime the best, but the point still is, that the b teamers are the s class of sc2. Not just nestea and mc, but bomber and pretty much everyone else on every team So that means that lots of old B-Teamars switched, all together they became the general mass of SC2 players, forming SC2 teams? And some of those (MVP/Nestea/etc) managed to get ahead of the curve and dominate? That sounds about right. Sounds very logical too. So how does that apply to any possible A-teamers switching? Well the probably just means that should same amount of A-teamers switch, they'd produce a similar or slightly higher amount of top SC2 players, but the general bunch would just join the regular SC2 bunch. Or put in number (obviously just made up numbers to illustrate the point): If 100 B-Teamers switch and create 2 Nesteas and 30 regular Code A/S players, then its likely that should 100 A-Teamers switch, they'd produce some 3-4 Nesteas and maybe 40 regular Code A/S players. That would be logical. But does that mean the current SC2 top is a farce? Thats really a pretty strong statement. one thing YOU DONT GET HOW BAD MC IS AT BROODWAR What were saying is that the differnce between a b teamer and an a teamer is night a day. The bench warmers are better by magnitudes, than mc or nestea. And that if 100 of them switched over wed be more likley to see 4-7 nesteas and like 50-60 code s/a gamers. But those would be the bench warmers. There exist a group of at least 100 pro gamers that mc could never even dream of touching. For example, Idra was ranked 200 something in kespa, and was considered a great b teamer. That is what were saying that mc exist on such a lower level that he literally scrubbed the toilets for these kids (i am not joking about this, this is a fact). The differnce between these kids and mc is the differnce between mc and a Platinum or possibly even a gold player. So no, it would not be just 3-4. And no one is saying it is a farce, were saying just way for what is in store
Good. Then we agree. I can live with my numbers being wrong, they were abviously made on the fly. And we'd never be able to agree in perfect numbers anyway. But we agree on the main point. And obviously the OP stated it was a farce, not you (sorry if that was unclear), so we're on the same level there too.
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On May 12 2011 17:42 NicksonReyes wrote:Show nested quote +On May 12 2011 17:36 jmbthirteen wrote:On May 12 2011 17:28 Nolot wrote:On May 12 2011 17:27 setzer wrote:On May 12 2011 17:25 Nolot wrote:On May 12 2011 17:20 travis wrote:On May 12 2011 17:07 H wrote:On May 12 2011 17:02 travis wrote:
It is absolutely ridiculous to compare the competition in a game that is less than 1 year old to a game that people have been playing professionally for over 10 years. To call the competition in sc2 a "farce" is to call the competition in most every game other than sc:bw a farce, and that's sc:bw elitism at it's finest(and not in a good way). Except the top competition in SC2, as written in the article, played SC1 professionally for years.. and sucked at it. And maybe they played chess and sucked at that too? Who cares? A bunch of B teamer and some A- teamer bw players switched and some B teamers rose to the top, with amazing play. So what exactly is the point? That competition can become more fierce? Well duh, the game is less than a year old. Or is the point that sc:bw has better gamers and that if the pros from it switch to sc2 they will immediately own everyone? Because that's just conjecture and I expect it's not exactly true, and it certainly won't happen instantly anyways. It's also rude. In 5 years it won't be a sc1 player sitting on the GSL(or whatever tournament) throne. It'll be a sc2 player. Actually you know what, it already is. Nestea is clearly a sc2 player. I have to agree here, and didn't MVP beat Flash once in a scbw game? He beat him once in a 50 minute TvT that honestly could have gone either way in the last second. Flash won the other games in total dominating fashion. So you are telling me that someone who can last 50mins in a TvT vs Flash, and win it in the end sucked? That doesn't make any sense to me Think about it this way. MVP was good enough to beat Flash in a 50 min game and has probably been the best SCBW player to switch to sc2. He also happens to be one of, if not the best sc2 player. Coincidence? I can't believe this thread lead to people thinking MVP was good. Flash is turtle terran. Even canata can last an hour against him.
I don't think MVP was "good" at BW. But compared to the players that have switched he has been one of the better ones.
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On May 12 2011 17:37 wassbix wrote:Show nested quote +On May 12 2011 17:25 J.E.G. wrote:On May 12 2011 16:55 Comeh wrote:On May 12 2011 16:52 J.E.G. wrote:I read the "What's your point?" section and still don't see the point. Lesser players saw and avenue for success and took it; its not that complicated. On May 12 2011 13:32 intrigue wrote:
My prediction: there will be another influx of (T)MVP-level (A-class) pros into SC2 after deals fall through during the next August free agency. With the announcement of Heart of the Swarm for Spring 2012, it's likely they will decide to get a head start. This is the only non-subjective-taken-out-of-context part of the post. Money will dry up for BW over time, and the heavy weights will transfer to SC2. I'm curious why you think "money will dry out" for scbw - if money hasn't dried out in over 10 years, why would it dry out now? Unless sc2 starts stealing a majority of the scbw crowd, which hasn't been seen to be true in korea at the moment (according to reports), scbw is still the powerhouse over there. Really, the lack of perspective a lot of the newer sc2 users have is quite amazing - they don't really see what an amazing accomplishment scbw in korea truly is, and what an amazing and perfect game it is. It's pretty sad really. Edit: and for those that comment on how scbw is dying - there really hasn't been the level of success that scbw has had either. Until the game is truly established and accomplishes an "esport level" in a country (even in korea, which we haven't really seen it taken over like bw has), then I'm going to consider scbw more successful. Because SC2 already has a much larger international scene with multiple tournaments and leagues getting huge exposure around the glove, and its not even as good of a game as brood war is. Brood war will get left behind as talent shifts to SC2. From what i can find, the last patch for bw came out in late 2008, 10 years after the release of brood war. That means 10 years of balance changes to meet the demand of the then-growing BW scene. Over time, SC2 (which has been around for 10% of the time BW has, yet has nearly instantly surpassed BW in world-wide demand) will become a better, more stable game, there will be higher monetary incentives to play it, causing the big fish to switch, causing their fan bases to follow suit, causing demand for BW to drop, and sadly, dry out. Don't get me wrong, most of the games of SC2 i see are pretty boring, only a few of which that can compete with the epic-ness of BW, but to expect Blizzard to put out a game that is instantly more competitive and amazing than BW is absolutely ridiculous. lol perhaps you should check the patch list for BW and see how many balance patches it had (hint: last one was in 2001) Hell I'll even help you out http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft/Patches_1.01-1.07 SC2 in like 6 months had more balance changes than BW in its entirety and the current E-Sport "boom" is still nothing compared to the attention gaming got in the early 2000s with painkiller and such. Guess what it was a bubble and died out completely, while BW and Korea was the only scene to actually build a lasting infrastructure.
yup, you're right. Last balance patch came in 2001 with 1.08. I was wrong. This is how that section should have been written:
Last balance batch for BW was in 2001 with 1.08 patch, which means it was out 3 times as long as sc2, with an additional 10 years of people developing strategies for a stable game.
I stand by the rest of the post
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On May 12 2011 17:43 jmbthirteen wrote:Show nested quote +On May 12 2011 17:38 Creep wrote:On May 12 2011 17:31 darkscream wrote:
More of the usual TL drivel, O HARKEN THE DAYS OF BROOD WAR, WHERE PLAYERS WERE BETTER AND PEOPLE WHO READ ABOUT THE PLAYERS WERE ALSO BETTER
give me a break, if these guys had any SC2 skill they'd be playing SC2 since that's where the money is, obviously they are super powerful at broodwar and I hope they stay there, as the game is ancient and without major following outside of korea and teamliquid.net
also, how come you can write what is essentially a troll article? If I wrote a troll post on the forums I'd get banned. Yet this article does nothing but
a) make the BW nostalgia crew fap with anticipation
b) anger/confuse newer fans of SC2 who don't give a rat's ass about BW
c) bait trolling This post sums up how I feel about this entire thing, and is written in a much cleverer way than I ever could have. The money isnt in sc2... Not in Korea. Its still in BW. And for those so offended by this being on the front page of TL, ever think that the point of this article was to create all this discussion, you know create traffic and dialog? Kinda what TL is meant for. Just because its on the front page doesn't mean you have to agree with it. I find it quite hilarious that people take such offense to this. How about you guys go write an article saying why you disagree?
Fine, I'll bite. I'll come back for one more jab. Yea, people are taking this so heated. Because in the back of their minds, they are afraid that it is true, that all of this would invalidate their love of SC2. Because it won't. They will still love SC2, and I will still love SC2. (along with Bw). But again, I'll just snort slightly when Jaedong does switch. I think they will rue the day when it happens. Because he is a monster who does not stop for anything.
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Really nice article, well written and thought out. It would be interesting to see how the better SC1 players would do in SC2. But SC2 is obviously the future at least world wide. I wonder how long the SC1 scene will last or if Blizzard will give it a graphics buff or something like that.
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Personally I think it'd be less interesting from a player perspective to have super dominant players who make games a foregone conclusion. I don't want to see the same guy win 10 GSLs in a row.
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Please just watch bw. Than watch sc2. Than it's kind of obvious. The better players play bw.
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On May 12 2011 17:42 NicksonReyes wrote:Show nested quote +On May 12 2011 17:36 jmbthirteen wrote:On May 12 2011 17:28 Nolot wrote:On May 12 2011 17:27 setzer wrote:On May 12 2011 17:25 Nolot wrote:On May 12 2011 17:20 travis wrote:On May 12 2011 17:07 H wrote:On May 12 2011 17:02 travis wrote:
It is absolutely ridiculous to compare the competition in a game that is less than 1 year old to a game that people have been playing professionally for over 10 years. To call the competition in sc2 a "farce" is to call the competition in most every game other than sc:bw a farce, and that's sc:bw elitism at it's finest(and not in a good way). Except the top competition in SC2, as written in the article, played SC1 professionally for years.. and sucked at it. And maybe they played chess and sucked at that too? Who cares? A bunch of B teamer and some A- teamer bw players switched and some B teamers rose to the top, with amazing play. So what exactly is the point? That competition can become more fierce? Well duh, the game is less than a year old. Or is the point that sc:bw has better gamers and that if the pros from it switch to sc2 they will immediately own everyone? Because that's just conjecture and I expect it's not exactly true, and it certainly won't happen instantly anyways. It's also rude. In 5 years it won't be a sc1 player sitting on the GSL(or whatever tournament) throne. It'll be a sc2 player. Actually you know what, it already is. Nestea is clearly a sc2 player. I have to agree here, and didn't MVP beat Flash once in a scbw game? He beat him once in a 50 minute TvT that honestly could have gone either way in the last second. Flash won the other games in total dominating fashion. So you are telling me that someone who can last 50mins in a TvT vs Flash, and win it in the end sucked? That doesn't make any sense to me Think about it this way. MVP was good enough to beat Flash in a 50 min game and has probably been the best SCBW player to switch to sc2. He also happens to be one of, if not the best sc2 player. Coincidence? I can't believe this thread lead to people thinking MVP was good. Flash is turtle terran. Even canata can last an hour against him. Beating flash after 50 mins isn't far from beating him during midgame 'cause its TvT. He just won the final engagement, so lasting 50 mins isn't actually that impressive.
It wasn't just a simple turtle-fest. It was a back and forth game in which one player could have lost
at any given moment.
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99% of the balancing BW came after patches through development of strategies and new maps.
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I'm surprised there was little talk about Idra's favorite complaint; that there is limited room for mechanics to allow "superior" players to win. SC2 seems to be much more "strategy focused" (bear with me) with the harder counters and lower mechanical ceiling. There are fewer mechanical tricks that players can use to finesse major strategic decisions. As such, the marginal advantage of a higher apm (and thus more games) may not be greater than the marginal gain of additional hours strategizing.
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On May 12 2011 17:45 J.E.G. wrote:Show nested quote +On May 12 2011 17:37 wassbix wrote:On May 12 2011 17:25 J.E.G. wrote:On May 12 2011 16:55 Comeh wrote:On May 12 2011 16:52 J.E.G. wrote:I read the "What's your point?" section and still don't see the point. Lesser players saw and avenue for success and took it; its not that complicated. On May 12 2011 13:32 intrigue wrote:
My prediction: there will be another influx of (T)MVP-level (A-class) pros into SC2 after deals fall through during the next August free agency. With the announcement of Heart of the Swarm for Spring 2012, it's likely they will decide to get a head start. This is the only non-subjective-taken-out-of-context part of the post. Money will dry up for BW over time, and the heavy weights will transfer to SC2. I'm curious why you think "money will dry out" for scbw - if money hasn't dried out in over 10 years, why would it dry out now? Unless sc2 starts stealing a majority of the scbw crowd, which hasn't been seen to be true in korea at the moment (according to reports), scbw is still the powerhouse over there. Really, the lack of perspective a lot of the newer sc2 users have is quite amazing - they don't really see what an amazing accomplishment scbw in korea truly is, and what an amazing and perfect game it is. It's pretty sad really. Edit: and for those that comment on how scbw is dying - there really hasn't been the level of success that scbw has had either. Until the game is truly established and accomplishes an "esport level" in a country (even in korea, which we haven't really seen it taken over like bw has), then I'm going to consider scbw more successful. Because SC2 already has a much larger international scene with multiple tournaments and leagues getting huge exposure around the glove, and its not even as good of a game as brood war is. Brood war will get left behind as talent shifts to SC2. From what i can find, the last patch for bw came out in late 2008, 10 years after the release of brood war. That means 10 years of balance changes to meet the demand of the then-growing BW scene. Over time, SC2 (which has been around for 10% of the time BW has, yet has nearly instantly surpassed BW in world-wide demand) will become a better, more stable game, there will be higher monetary incentives to play it, causing the big fish to switch, causing their fan bases to follow suit, causing demand for BW to drop, and sadly, dry out. Don't get me wrong, most of the games of SC2 i see are pretty boring, only a few of which that can compete with the epic-ness of BW, but to expect Blizzard to put out a game that is instantly more competitive and amazing than BW is absolutely ridiculous. lol perhaps you should check the patch list for BW and see how many balance patches it had (hint: last one was in 2001) Hell I'll even help you out http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft/Patches_1.01-1.07 SC2 in like 6 months had more balance changes than BW in its entirety and the current E-Sport "boom" is still nothing compared to the attention gaming got in the early 2000s with painkiller and such. Guess what it was a bubble and died out completely, while BW and Korea was the only scene to actually build a lasting infrastructure. yup, you're right. Last balance patch came in 2001 with 1.08. I was wrong. This is how that section should have been written: Last balance batch for BW was in 2001 with 1.08 patch, which means it was out 3 times as long as sc2, with an additional 10 years of people developing strategies for a stable game. I stand by the rest of the post
Back then people didn't even know what macro was. The beginning of SC2 already had all the knowledge and experience people have gained for years in BW. 10 years of developing in BW and now a single patch. That shows how balanced the game is.
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EPT
