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doubleupgradeobbies!
Australia1364 Posts
On May 12 2011 17:41 Kreb wrote:
Btw, it would be pretty cool if someone from the staff could motivate the decision to put this on the front page. From what I've seen so far, TL admins has been working kinda hard to minimize the hate which is being thrown around in all threads where BW vs SC2 discussions spawn. And god knows how many times I've read notes at the top of a thread about "Do not turn this into a heated BW vs SC2 disussion".
Obviously I'm skeptical about the decision to put it on the front page, but i'll reserve my judgement for when I see a motivation why it was put there. So it would be very much appreciated to get one. Thanks in advance.
I think you misunderstand why most threads have the "Do not turn this into a heated BW vs SC2 discussion" label. It's not because it is the discussion itself has no merit. It's because the thread that they don't want it to happen in is there for a different reason, and the BW vs SC2 discussion being more heated will inevitably derail the original thread.
This thread on the other hand is nothing more than a staff member stating his opinion and showing his reasoning. It doesn't serve any other useful purpose OTHER than being a platform for dialogue on the topic. I see absolutely nothing wrong with it.
On May 12 2011 17:41 Kreb wrote:
Yet this makes the front page, and not only is it clearly biased towards one side, it's also the biggest BW vs SC2-flamebait I've probably seen on TL since I joined. There is no way this thread would ever turn into something else. And it's on the front page.
It is an editorial, they are by definition an opinion of an editor. God forbid that an opinion should be biased, that only happens when... hmm... anyone has an opinion ... on anything...
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United Kingdom16710 Posts
On May 12 2011 17:51 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote:
great post, intrigue so smart
hot_bid you're a cretin, Sea[Shield] would dominate SC2
Maybe in the GSTL but he'll probably falter in the GSL more out of habit than anything else 
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This article sounds like it is written by somebody that wants to start a fight with words and not punches ("I'm smarter than you so I will outwit you with my extensive vocabulary, your battle is already lost!" OP exclaimed before he felt his cheekbone cave to a right hook).
I think most people already know what you are stating. The old BW bonjwas that are in SC2 currently are shadows of their former selves (although I am not sure about July, he has proven in the past that he never really lies down, winning an individual league in BW as late as 2008) and the players that have transferred from BW were pretty ordinary. But you're constantly comparing these players in your article to Flash, Jaedong and Bisu, who are for lack of a better word, freaks. There aren't a million of these guys. What's more is they have spent several years honing their skills in BW and SC2 by comparison hasn't even been out for a year yet. There hasn't been enough time for some 13 or 14 or 16 year old kid to play SC2 for a couple of years (CreatorPrime or LeenockfOu perhaps?) and then realise his dream of smashing every other player on the planet.
I think you (and many other enablers) fail to realise that every month that goes by we are seeing more impressive players and strategies, It just keeps getting better. Some of those mediocre players you mentioned are beginning to falter and people like LosirA or Bomber are crawling out of the woodwork and taking gameplay to a new level. But of course Bomber must be restricted by that poor training setup in the Startale house, that far too relaxed atmosphere where he learnt how to dismember MVP, the mediocre BW A-teamer as you put it OP. I also bet that if a player can beat MVP you can probably beat Guemchi, that guy is shit, but nevermind that. Yeah BW is full of impressive play, I used to watch it, sometimes I still do, but it took years and a finished game for the collaborative impressive plays to be worked out. You think that any decent BW pro that transfers over will smash the competition, when the game was brand new, sure! Now... maybe, but soon I think it will be too late for anyone except for the new BW bonjwas. Maybe one day it will even be too late for them too if they stay in BW too long. In any case, I don't really see how your argument is very valid considering SC2 and BW are actually different games. SC2 is the excitement of watching the game and players evolve, BW is the excitement of watching the same things get done (because what hasn't been done in over 10 years), just sometimes some freaks do it much better than others.
I'm not sure if this article was written to troll the TL.net community or what but I'm sure it's done a good job of inciting rage in many SC2 fans and further widening the gap between the BW and SC2 community. Hats off to you.
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On May 12 2011 17:49 exalted wrote:
As an ex-BW player who doesn't play much SC2, I agree with with the OP. It is unfortunate that most of the new SC2 crowd cannot appreciate how good Flash and Jaedong are. However, I think the logic and reasoning in the OP isn't the correct way to approach the issue.
People who are "mediocre" don't always stay that way. Just because they had poor results in SC1 doesn't mean that they are doomed to mediocrity in SC2. They could have realized "shit, I'm going to really step up my game", changed their mindset, and struck gold. The two games ARE different, and comparing outdated records simply is not convincing enough to prove the point.
I think what you're seeing in SC2 is not necessarily a lack of skill, but simply the game being too young for people to play at a refined level. Players can be separated into "innovators" and "executors". In the early stages of SC2, innovators have a large edge as they can put their opponents into unfamiliar situations and exploit. As the game becomes more and more defined, "executors" (Idra) start to shine as all of their responses are reflexes and their game-management / multitask becomes their game-winning advantage.
If SC1 pros continue to make the transition (which I see inevitable), the OP will likely be proven true. However, I will also bet that it is equally likely that some new star (with no BW background) will come and smash the current scene. Never underestimate the talent of young kids with both an ego and plenty of spare time. Especially if they come from a background that demands mental/physical dexterity (i.e. piano, other games, etc.)
Finally, thank god, a well thought out post that isn't totally biased. That's just it, sc2 is too young for people to play at the refined level you see in BW, but it will eventually get there, just like BW did, which did not happen overnight or in one year, I guarantee. Of course players with drive and discipline will shine in sc2 like they did in BW, but again, like you said, chances are we will see brand new pros with no BW background get to that super-refined level in sc2 by playing it with similar dedication. SC2 competition is as good as it can be at this stage, but that doesn't make it a farce, as the OP suggested, it just makes it young.
I still think it was un called for to say that current sc2 competition is a farce simply because x player hasn't moved over. That is a load of crap and borders on trolling, as some have said.
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On May 12 2011 17:51 stangstang wrote:
lol @ people getting offended at this thread.
it was trying to inform people of the possibility of what SC2 will become.
Imagine 100 people with skills that are above/equal to MVP's current form, that is what SC2 can become in the future.
I see some people saying this game sucks because its dominated by B-teamers. If that is the case, look at the quality of the games and imagine what the game will look like when A-teamers decide to switch over.
Nada doesn't play as much as he used to in BW and still is the most consistent SC2 player. Does that mean SC2 is a joke? No. It means when the A-teamers switch over, this will motivate Nada to play ever more so he doesnt fall behind.
This is more of how I read the article too. Its kinda just saying, wait until these guys get here. Its saying sc2 is far from the golden age and there is more to look forward too.
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On May 12 2011 17:48 Sabu113 wrote:
I'm surprised there was little talk about Idra's favorite complaint; that there is limited room for mechanics to allow "superior" players to win. SC2 seems to be much more "strategy focused" (bear with me) with the harder counters and lower mechanical ceiling. There are fewer mechanical tricks that players can use to finesse major strategic decisions. As such, the marginal advantage of a higher apm (and thus more games) may not be greater than the marginal gain of additional hours strategizing.
Knowing what unit comp trumps your opponents unit comp better than he does isn't as exciting for the spectators as marine splits vs. lurkers or muta micro. It doesn't matter how the game plays, if it's going to succeed as a spectator sport, it needs to be fun to watch.
Sure, theres a lot of strategy in SC2 and less mechanics, but theres more of both in BW. In SC2 you can think of a new build order or unit comp, but everything still equals you going 1a into victory more often then not.
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Seriously though, of flash/jaedong/stork (bisu never exists. i hate the man lol) the one who would be most successful is jaedong because of his work ethic. he would put in the hours like crazy to be the best, and he would be. stork would be next and then flash would be last, partially because his mindset in games is less effective in starcraft, but mostly because i haven't heard much of his work ethic tbh. i assume is great but i hear jaedong is a godly player to have because of his ethic
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On May 12 2011 17:51 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote:
great post, intrigue so smart
hot_bid you're a cretin, Sea[Shield] would dominate SC2
He'll lose to anyone in proleague while he's winning every GSL .
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interesting read with some solid facts + logic. Makes you wonder how SC will be in the years to come.
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On May 12 2011 13:32 intrigue wrote:
What does it say about the scene then, when a bottom-tier burnout from Brood War on a relaxed practice regimen still wins the GSL? It says that SC2 requires a different skill set. Is it really a good thing that you need to practice mechanics 10 hours a day for 6 days per week for a strategy game? Or is it just an abuse to overcome strategical deficits with slightly higher army efficiency?
If WoL would require the same skills as BW, we would need no new game.
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On May 12 2011 17:50 Kyuukyuu wrote:It's quite frankly infuriating how many people are correlating the article with some magical hand-wavy "overall team liquid BW elitism from all the old staff members" bullshit. It's an EDITORIAL, even if you don't fucking know what it means it's right there in the first line. Polarizing opinions are not trolling. Opinions that are incongruent with yours are not trolling. Now what about idiotic one-liners simplifying the entire article to ludicrous levels? You don't have to agree with intrigue, but the amount of one-liner butthurt nerdrage is just depressing. Show nested quote +On May 12 2011 17:42 lexiphanic wrote:On May 12 2011 17:39 Lemonwalrus wrote:On May 12 2011 17:37 Zeridian wrote:On May 12 2011 17:36 lexiphanic wrote:
I would actually be interested in discussing the points of the article, however, as the tone of the article is extremely inflammatory I really have no interest in taking it seriously.
If you actually go and read it though, you can note that every single point it tries to make is based on assumptions.
Honestly, it looks like the kind of post that would normally get someone banned from TL, but instead is featured on the front page as some kind of amazing revelation. a lot of people feel this way about it, since a mod or staff member made it, they won't get in any real trouble. It even gets "hey look at me" front page dibs. It is an editorial. That is what editorials are. This is an opinion piece, and people are blasting it because they are measuring it against other criteria than the ones that it was written to fulfill. This is intrigue's opinion, and that is all it was ever intended to be. Don't play a martyr because the writer is a mod, and don't call anything you disagree with a troll, those are both insulting actions to take. Well, considering the tone, I think it is indeed 'trolling' for responses. Thus, making the author a troll. Starting out by calling GSL champions "Bad" is definitely trolling. It's also inflamatory. That makes it flamebait as well. stop posting. forever
If anyone else posted this they would get at least a warning. This is entirely "BW elitism from all the old staff members" to how you mockingly describe it.
People have been temp banned for calling Pros a farce before but this article right dead center of the front page calls the entire SC2 scene a farce, how the hell isn't that just one giant troll.
Screw the author and the horse he rode in on, if he likes BW that much more then SC2 then he can go back to just watching BW and stop trying to tell us about the SC2 scene.
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On May 12 2011 17:52 DetrA wrote:Show nested quote +On May 12 2011 17:43 itiswhatitis wrote:
So, MC wasn't successful in BW.... that means he's bad now? Because nobody ever learns anything or improves, ever... amirite?!
Sucking in the past means you forever suck, it's not possible that he could have worked hard and become a really strong player, it must just mean competition in sc2 isn't real, right guys?!
FFS. Your right it would have been a bad argument if he picked out a single player however, how good people were before they switched to sc2 equals how good they are at bw relative to the other bw pros. Is there anyone who was around for bw that disagrees with this post. The people who never watched bw can't understand becuase they have never seen the amount of skill shown by top bw pros.
Totally sounds like some hipster nerdness to me, especially assuming I'm not familiar with BW progamers because I don't agree with you. I think you drop those guys into a brand new game, and they will stumble in learning just like anyone, until they have a lot of time to get refined, which no one has yet because the game is so new and still in the midst of being balanced and changed all the time.
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This thread is growing faster than a SC2 LR thread...hmmm.
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On May 12 2011 17:42 NicksonReyes wrote:Show nested quote +On May 12 2011 17:36 jmbthirteen wrote:On May 12 2011 17:28 Nolot wrote:On May 12 2011 17:27 setzer wrote:On May 12 2011 17:25 Nolot wrote:On May 12 2011 17:20 travis wrote:On May 12 2011 17:07 H wrote:On May 12 2011 17:02 travis wrote:
It is absolutely ridiculous to compare the competition in a game that is less than 1 year old to a game that people have been playing professionally for over 10 years. To call the competition in sc2 a "farce" is to call the competition in most every game other than sc:bw a farce, and that's sc:bw elitism at it's finest(and not in a good way). Except the top competition in SC2, as written in the article, played SC1 professionally for years.. and sucked at it. And maybe they played chess and sucked at that too? Who cares? A bunch of B teamer and some A- teamer bw players switched and some B teamers rose to the top, with amazing play. So what exactly is the point? That competition can become more fierce? Well duh, the game is less than a year old. Or is the point that sc:bw has better gamers and that if the pros from it switch to sc2 they will immediately own everyone? Because that's just conjecture and I expect it's not exactly true, and it certainly won't happen instantly anyways. It's also rude. In 5 years it won't be a sc1 player sitting on the GSL(or whatever tournament) throne. It'll be a sc2 player. Actually you know what, it already is. Nestea is clearly a sc2 player. I have to agree here, and didn't MVP beat Flash once in a scbw game? He beat him once in a 50 minute TvT that honestly could have gone either way in the last second. Flash won the other games in total dominating fashion. So you are telling me that someone who can last 50mins in a TvT vs Flash, and win it in the end sucked? That doesn't make any sense to me Think about it this way. MVP was good enough to beat Flash in a 50 min game and has probably been the best SCBW player to switch to sc2. He also happens to be one of, if not the best sc2 player. Coincidence? I can't believe this thread lead to people thinking MVP was good. Flash is turtle terran. Even canata can last an hour against him. Beating flash after 50 mins isn't far from beating him during midgame 'cause its TvT. He just won the final engagement, so lasting 50 mins isn't actually that impressive.
Wait, so if we're lucky and Flash switches to SC2 we will get to watch some terran turtle their way through 50-60 minute games all the way to to the finals and win, never dropping a game.
That sounds shit.
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Somewhere in the distant future, SC2 will be dominated by Koreans just like BW is dominated by Koreans. Calling it now.
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On May 12 2011 17:54 jmbthirteen wrote:Show nested quote +On May 12 2011 17:51 stangstang wrote:
lol @ people getting offended at this thread.
it was trying to inform people of the possibility of what SC2 will become.
Imagine 100 people with skills that are above/equal to MVP's current form, that is what SC2 can become in the future.
I see some people saying this game sucks because its dominated by B-teamers. If that is the case, look at the quality of the games and imagine what the game will look like when A-teamers decide to switch over.
Nada doesn't play as much as he used to in BW and still is the most consistent SC2 player. Does that mean SC2 is a joke? No. It means when the A-teamers switch over, this will motivate Nada to play ever more so he doesnt fall behind. This is more of how I read the article too. Its kinda just saying, wait until these guys get here. Its saying sc2 is far from the golden age and there is more to look forward too.
Exactly. You have people in this thread QQing saying Intrigue is basically saying this game is bad when he never once said that. There is still a lot more to look forward to in this game. I for one cannot wait till more B-teamers, A-teamers or even some S class players switch over.
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Okay, that's it for me. I've been following this thread since page one and the arguments just seem to be looping over again every 10 or so posts, it's quite tiring to read.
I honestly don't think this topic can be discussed any further without recycling old bits of text that have already been noted a few pages back.
Everything that had to have been said has been said, and I don't see any new revelations arising from this beaten down discussion.
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On May 12 2011 17:56 [F_]aths wrote:Show nested quote +On May 12 2011 13:32 intrigue wrote:
What does it say about the scene then, when a bottom-tier burnout from Brood War on a relaxed practice regimen still wins the GSL? It says that SC2 requires a different skill set. Is it really a good thing that you need to practice mechanics 10 hours a day for 6 days per week for a strategy game? Or is it just an abuse to overcome strategical deficits with slightly higher army efficiency?
Oh, so your one of those "I'm smart enough to be a broodwar pro but I just don't have the time to practice all those lame apm mechanics thingies" guys, aren't you?
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Baltimore, USA22261 Posts
On May 12 2011 17:59 tdt wrote:
This thread is growing faster than a SC2 LR thread...hmmm.
Yeah, noticed that too. Amazed how riled up everyone seems to get.
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Lol at the haters. The article only said that:
1.) Current SC2 scene are dominated by ex BW players
2.) These players were average at bw at most
3.) IF some of the current bw pros who are average would transfer, they MIGHT dominate
4.) Flash and JD WOULD dominate no question
5.) The current pros need to practice in a more organised fashion
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EPT
