EPTDon't you realize how childish (and uninteresting) it is ? I don't say there is no truth in some parts of your article but... What's the point ?
I'm really disappointed to see such an article on TL.
The Elephant in the Room - Page 42
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mr_tolkien
France8631 Posts
Don't you realize how childish (and uninteresting) it is ? I don't say there is no truth in some parts of your article but... What's the point ? I'm really disappointed to see such an article on TL. | ||
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Mithrandror
Belgium85 Posts
On May 12 2011 17:38 Gooey wrote: This is actually very true. Best is regularly sent out to snipe flash in winners league, simply because he can macro better than any protoss player on the planet. The way SKT deals with flash in proleague, or for sniping in winner's league, is to just have BeSt use his inane ability to out-macro him, and run him over before he gets his 3-3 turtle 200/200 push. Bisu often loses to flash because, although his multitasking is arguable the best in the world, he doesn't have the raw macro power that someone like best has. Bisu's multitasking specialty is harnessed the most in his PvZ matchup (also know as BvZ). Flash, on the otherhand, has just good macro and good multitask, nothing like that of a bisu or best level in multitask/macro, but his decision making, overall strategy, and tactical use of the maps is by far the strongest of any pro gamer, closely followed by jaedong. Flash's brainpower and intellect is what makes him so dominant, which is why he is so special. He is not a mechanical god (although, that's not to say he has below-average mechanics), but because of his other talents, he stands high on a pedestal above everyone. With all of that being said, success and "skill" can come from a lot of different areas. Some people's skills may not transfer over to sc2 and have the same magnitude that they did in BW (for example, BeSt might not be able to just flood units at someone and strait up out-macro people like he does now, due to how simplified the macro mechanic is now). Bisu's ridiculous multitasking would definitely transfer over with huge success, given how few players have shown his caliber of it. Bisu can be in 7 different places at once, where most SC2 pros have no come close to showing that yet. Flash's brainpower would 100% transfer over, and possibly be amplified even more, given the fact that sc2 has been changing a lot recently, due to patches and new maps. I think that a flash or jaedong would 100% dominate sc2 if they were to swtich, but I don't see why they would, when they are in love with their current games and dominating them with good pay and fan support. Would be interesting to see, though. I completely agree 100% with the points OP made and also with the point you are making. However there is one minor flaw in this entire argument namely, Boxer. I think everyone can agree that Boxer is probally the best or one of best in terms of 'brainpower' as you put. Heck even in the time where he fell behind mechanically by such a large margin he was still seldom able to take a game or two from someone way more skilled in that department simply by 'outthinking him'. Enter Starcraft 2: this game is without a doubt easier in the 'mechanic department' and it can be argued that as a consequence brainpower is even more important in this game then in SC1, then why isn't Boxer doing nearly as good as should be expected. One could argue that he is very successfull in the sense that he basically created an entire team which is offcourse a nice feat. However Boxer stated himself that he 'wanted to be in a a spotlight' again. Which sort of proves that Boxer did not 'chose' to create a team but was sort of 'forced' to do so since he realised that he wouldn't be nearly as successfull as he anticipated. Point of this rant is that in my opinion Boxer could potentially be used as an argument to prove the entire 'SC2 is a different game' theory. I personally don't buy it but I understand why alot of people do. | ||
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Zerothegreat
United States787 Posts
On May 12 2011 18:01 valaki wrote: Lol at the haters. The article only said that: 1.) Current SC2 scene are dominated by ex BW players 2.) These players were average at bw at most 3.) IF some of the current bw pros who are average would transfer, they MIGHT dominate 4.) Flash and JD WOULD dominate no question 5.) The current pros need to practice in a more organised fashion It also called the competition a farce and only a handful of games are enjoyable. You are trying to dismiss the bad points by bringing up the only good points he made. | ||
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wassbix
Canada499 Posts
On May 12 2011 17:45 J.E.G. wrote: yup, you're right. Last balance patch came in 2001 with 1.08. I was wrong. This is how that section should have been written: Last balance batch for BW was in 2001 with 1.08 patch, which means it was out 3 times as long as sc2, with an additional 10 years of people developing strategies for a stable game. I stand by the rest of the post I'm not sure if you grasp how big of a fluke BW was or just how infant the RTS scene was back then compared to now. No one intended BW to become a Esport giant and Blizzard had no clue how to balance the game and frankly kinda gave up after patch 1.08. (Still remember the 4pool whines and when it got fixed how Zerg was forever ruined haha) The game was balanced 99% by community map makers who are now part of Kespa. Meanwhile Blizzard did pay attention to War3 and while I loved the war3 scene, it didn't really last. Mainly because blizzard is not very good at balance at all and unlike BW there was no community balancing. Top down approach to Esport has failed everytime it has been tried. So expecting some miracle from blizzard patches is pretty short sighted. | ||
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TheButtonmen
Canada1405 Posts
On May 12 2011 18:06 EvilTeletubby wrote: Given the maturity of the SC2 community, I expect about the reaction it got.  If anyone ever did the same to the BW community the mods would step in though, so I'm not sure what exactly other then sparking a huge argument between the SC2 and BW fans that they are trying to accomplish here. | ||
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jmbthirteen
United States10734 Posts
On May 12 2011 18:04 Fraidnot wrote: So people like travis or Artosis didn't know anything about BW? That's getting thrown around a lot: "oh you disagree? I'll just assume you didn't follow BW." well some of us did, and it's not the idea that Flash or Jaedong could be the best that we're having a problem with it's the assumption that without them playing the game, Sc2 is a game for crappy players who only win because everyone else sucks. I said a lot, not all. And I didn't take the article that sc2 is a game for crappy players. I took it as the game isn't being played at its highest level right now. | ||
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DetrA
United States148 Posts
On May 12 2011 18:06 Inori wrote: I don't get the point of this. Why is this even featured as FE? So you're saying that top players, who, for the last 5-10 years, spent their time playing SC1 for 10+ hours a day would be successful in its predecessor? Captain Obvious, that you? Well it's obvious to anyone who understands the basics of rts games. | ||
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Thelymus
Netherlands131 Posts
On May 12 2011 18:04 Fraidnot wrote: So people like travis or Artosis didn't know anything about BW? That's getting thrown around a lot: "oh you disagree? I'll just assume you didn't follow BW." well some of us did, and it's not the idea that Flash or Jaedong could be the best that we're having a problem with it's the assumption that without them playing the game, Sc2 is a game for crappy players who only win because everyone else sucks. This, basically. I think SC2 should stand on its own as a game, with it's own playerbase and should not require BW pro's to join in before it's taken seriously. I wouldn't mind seeing Flash and Jaedong switch over, but I don't think it's required. | ||
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NicksonReyes
Philippines4431 Posts
On May 12 2011 18:07 TheButtonmen wrote: Well considering SC2 is pulling more new viewers to E-Sports then BW ever did I'm going to have to go out on a limb and say he's completely and utterly wrong. The OP based his predictions(of BW players dominating) from statistics, so you lose a limb. | ||
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Sqq
Norway2023 Posts
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exalted
United States3612 Posts
On May 12 2011 17:59 Deadeight wrote: Wait, so if we're lucky and Flash switches to SC2 we will get to watch some terran turtle their way through 50-60 minute games all the way to to the finals and win, never dropping a game. That sounds shit. Not a fan of this post. The reason Flash plays like that is because the skill levels between the top players are so close that the game needs to be drawn out to maximize Flash's edge (as the better player). Also it plays on the strengths of the Terran race (at least in BW). And the fact that the "turtly" games are probably TvTs, which are going to be long... TvT is probably the most skill intensive matchup as it requires such insane multitasking (complicated base management, convoluted dropship micro) as well as strategy and on-the-fly thinking. It's also the reason why despite as a Terran player, I never played it and simply opted to play PvT or ZvT (which strengthened my understanding of the matchup by playing the other perspective) Going to check out MSL right now! Would be cool if some of you anti-"BW snobs" checked it out. Link is on the right hand side, I'd go with the lovable GTR's stream! | ||
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sleepytime
Denmark122 Posts
 MVP switched. Thanks for the Awesome work! | ||
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corumjhaelen
France6884 Posts
Yes the competition in sc2 is laughable. Flash and Jaedong would dominate the scene. I only had to commentate two bw games to convince my friends who play SC2 that BW pros are better. But you come close from much more interesting questions, and then just don't try to deal with them. TSL2 game quality was higher than TSL3. Why ? Because SC2 is less "mapped out" ? Perhaps this laziness that everyone who comes from Brood War see has an explanation. Perhaps there is a reason why the only ture "progresses" made by sc2 players since the beta have been better larva injecting, better BOs, and better early game micro. Perhaps it is because true strategic thought and very extensive practise does not help you that much. Perhaps SC2 skillset is narrower. Perhaps being more skilled is only helps you very marginally. Who knows. But I'm sure you could have expanded more on that. You could also have expanded on what can be done to improve the level, as Flash and Jaedong are not going to magically switch over, and your wishful thinking will not change that. Tweaking units ? Introducingt team games ? Honestly, if you are really annoyed by that, just watch BW. Why do you even watch more than a few sc2 game a month if you feel like that ? (and for the people who think they somehow missed BW, guess what, there are still as many tournaments as a year ago. You can even watch today, you will be welcome) And it is not fading as you are implying. I do not see more than 2-3 bad players switching. A lot of the people that went away are back, and a lot of them leaved bw because of the betting scandal, plus the Kespa/Blizzard dispute that seemed to spell doom on the bw scene. A few months later, all that seems pretty forgotten honestly. I am sad that you would write such unsupported statement on the TL front page. Perhaps I'm just bitter of the lack of (positive) BW advertising by TL. Thanks god we still have passionate people in the bw section. By the way your article title almost seems like an excuse, "hey I'm stating the obvious, please don't hate". Honestly, if you wanted to publish an article that would alienate a good chunk of your readers, you should just have published Ver's article on sAviOr's play. Plus Fakesteve is right about Sea. | ||
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itiswhatitis
United States136 Posts
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LwReisen
Australia94 Posts
1) TL is a BW community, first and foremost. It will always support the ex-BW players over the people who started out with sc2 and wc3 first up. That's just the way TL is. 2) The TL community is full of Korean fanboys. This article only reinforces this fact; hardcore TLers believe that GSL is the only tournament in the world and pretty much discounts any other tournament, unless it's won by a Korean. You can see this clearly through the grand total of 0 mentions of top tier foreigners. I don't mind this massive troll (sorry, but that's what it is) being on the front page, because it serves as a reminder where TL was first spawned. Admins gave far too much latitude to intrigue, and this article only serves to add gas to the fire. User was temp banned for this post. | ||
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TheButtonmen
Canada1405 Posts
On May 12 2011 18:09 NicksonReyes wrote: The OP based his predictions(of BW players dominating) from statistics, so you lose a limb. I said nothing about BW players dominating? My comment was addressed at him calling the scene a farce and describing the games as dull and unenjoyable. | ||
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Naphal
Germany2099 Posts
also broodwar exists almost solely in korea, i liked to click on some recommended vods, but i need to understand the language a bit to enjoy it, or subtitles... NE? NE! NE?! NENENE!!! doesnt really explain it. established well payed pros wont switch, and why would you want that? if the top8 switch to sc2, bw is basically dead meat, also i will look out for a bw uberpro switching, because i want to see if he really simply owns everyone right off the bat. still wondering why this is frontpage ~~ | ||
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Boonbag
France3318 Posts
On May 12 2011 18:07 TheButtonmen wrote: Well considering SC2 is pulling more new viewers to E-Sports then BW ever did I'm going to have to go out on a limb and say he's completely and utterly wrong. Dude, WoW arena was pulling alot of viewers too ? And where ever did we debate about viewership numbers ? (and bw korea numbers far exceed sc2 overall figures) It is dull as in the way it didn't carry over that "competitive cult" bw somehow installed. | ||
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Zerothegreat
United States787 Posts
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Mailing
United States3087 Posts
On May 12 2011 18:01 valaki wrote: Lol at the haters. The article only said that: Point 1.) Current SC2 scene are dominated by ex BW players Also : Because BW is a better game. Point 2.) These players were average at bw at most Also : Your favorite players sucked in "the real game" Point 3.) IF some of the current bw pros who are average would transfer, they MIGHT dominate Also : Because they are actually good at "the real game" Point 4.) Flash and JD WOULD dominate no question Also : Flash and JD are gods compared to your shitty favorite players. Point 5.) The current pros need to practice in a more organized fashion Also : I am going to assume your favorite players don't know how to practice, since they play 8hrs a day and still suck compared to BW b-teamers. That's why people are pissed. He took something that could of been educational to newer fans and turned it into SC2 bashing. | ||
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