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On January 15 2012 23:01 divinesage wrote:Show nested quote +On January 13 2012 05:25 Sentenal wrote:On January 13 2012 04:54 AsnSensation wrote:On January 12 2012 18:22 Sentenal wrote:On January 12 2012 18:11 divinesage wrote:On January 02 2012 01:39 Numy wrote:On January 02 2012 01:14 Milkis wrote:On January 01 2012 19:58 Sentenal wrote:On January 01 2012 16:09 Milkis wrote:i reread thriller bark and it's pretty interesting how in the same arc you see both the full destruction capabilities of both kuma's nikyu fruit and blackbeard's darkness fruit :O i really think luffy needs that fruit to fight blackbeard  Luffy being able to use Haki should be his trump card against all those previously seemingly invincible abilities. I don't think there is a need for another Devil Fruit. And Ace couldn't use Haki? that seems *very* unlikely. Ace didn't know blackbeards abilities and pushed him to the edge right? I guess the blackbeard now is better than the blackbeard then though Ace had Haki. It isn't as strong as Blackbeard or the Admirals which explains why he got totally trumped by Akainu. If he had stronger Haki, even if Akainu's fruit was superior to his, he would have been able to hold off his attacks. Think back when Whitebeard attacked Aokiji, I think Whitebeard wasn't exactly serious with his attacks otherwise his Haki would have broken through Aokiji's Haki and hurt him. Haki is present in everyone, but to manifest it, much training is requires. Also, I believe characters' that have stronger Haki would be able to negate weaker characters' Haki I don't think Haki works quiet like that. You don't simiply measure who has "stronger" haki in cases like that, I can almost guarantee you its all based on use and skill. Whitebeard attacks with Haki, and then Akainu uses it to block the attack. Ace himself only used Haoshoku Haki once, in that Flashback, and was never shown using it outside of that, which suggests to me at least that he was probably not as skilled in its use. I have to agree with that, seems kinda logic. Also For the people complaining why WB couldnt do shit against logias until he went nuts against Akainu, for example when he stabbed Aokiji with his sword, I assume he dematerialized logia style before whtebeard even stabbed him. Though I remember a few panels when he slashed Kizaru and nothing happened. Maybe he was just too weak at that point to even use Haki, it's weird for the strongest man nevertheless. While people were discussing if Smoker still uses his seastone tip stick, I found the following while rereading the chapter http://mangastream.com/read/one_piece/48504148/18top right panel, the long thing behind him, thats probably it? Yeah, looks like he has some big stick, anyway. As for the Whitebeard/Haki/Logia stuff, lots of potential reasons why it worked out like it did. Dematerializing is possible too, Haki defense is possible, but I highly doubt Haki on Haki is just some simple powerlevel measurement. That would be very un-One Piece like. Edit: Another thing I noticed, the Sun Pirates are still around. I always thought that when Jinbe became Shichibukai, that all of the remaining Sun Pirates became the Arlong Pirates. Guess only half the crew went with Arlong, and the rest stayed with Jinbe, and are now under Big Mom. Haki on Haki would certainly mean Haki defense vs Haki offense. I don't see why this couldn't work, because it surely shows how much each person has mastered his/her extent of Haki. You could probably say that Ace didn't really master his Haki to a good enough extent, that's why it barely showed when he was fighting.
Then explain how the strongest person in the world, Whitebeard, who also obviously has stronger Haki than anyone else, is able to take damage at all, much less take damage from random marine soldiers shooting him with guns? If "Haki defense" can defend against Akainu's punch, then obviously they would be able to defend against a gun or sword from a random dude.
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On January 16 2012 07:59 Sentenal wrote:Show nested quote +On January 15 2012 23:01 divinesage wrote:On January 13 2012 05:25 Sentenal wrote:On January 13 2012 04:54 AsnSensation wrote:On January 12 2012 18:22 Sentenal wrote:On January 12 2012 18:11 divinesage wrote:On January 02 2012 01:39 Numy wrote:On January 02 2012 01:14 Milkis wrote:On January 01 2012 19:58 Sentenal wrote:On January 01 2012 16:09 Milkis wrote:i reread thriller bark and it's pretty interesting how in the same arc you see both the full destruction capabilities of both kuma's nikyu fruit and blackbeard's darkness fruit :O i really think luffy needs that fruit to fight blackbeard Luffy being able to use Haki should be his trump card against all those previously seemingly invincible abilities. I don't think there is a need for another Devil Fruit. And Ace couldn't use Haki? that seems *very* unlikely. Ace didn't know blackbeards abilities and pushed him to the edge right? I guess the blackbeard now is better than the blackbeard then though Ace had Haki. It isn't as strong as Blackbeard or the Admirals which explains why he got totally trumped by Akainu. If he had stronger Haki, even if Akainu's fruit was superior to his, he would have been able to hold off his attacks. Think back when Whitebeard attacked Aokiji, I think Whitebeard wasn't exactly serious with his attacks otherwise his Haki would have broken through Aokiji's Haki and hurt him. Haki is present in everyone, but to manifest it, much training is requires. Also, I believe characters' that have stronger Haki would be able to negate weaker characters' Haki I don't think Haki works quiet like that. You don't simiply measure who has "stronger" haki in cases like that, I can almost guarantee you its all based on use and skill. Whitebeard attacks with Haki, and then Akainu uses it to block the attack. Ace himself only used Haoshoku Haki once, in that Flashback, and was never shown using it outside of that, which suggests to me at least that he was probably not as skilled in its use. I have to agree with that, seems kinda logic. Also For the people complaining why WB couldnt do shit against logias until he went nuts against Akainu, for example when he stabbed Aokiji with his sword, I assume he dematerialized logia style before whtebeard even stabbed him. Though I remember a few panels when he slashed Kizaru and nothing happened. Maybe he was just too weak at that point to even use Haki, it's weird for the strongest man nevertheless. While people were discussing if Smoker still uses his seastone tip stick, I found the following while rereading the chapter http://mangastream.com/read/one_piece/48504148/18top right panel, the long thing behind him, thats probably it? Yeah, looks like he has some big stick, anyway. As for the Whitebeard/Haki/Logia stuff, lots of potential reasons why it worked out like it did. Dematerializing is possible too, Haki defense is possible, but I highly doubt Haki on Haki is just some simple powerlevel measurement. That would be very un-One Piece like. Edit: Another thing I noticed, the Sun Pirates are still around. I always thought that when Jinbe became Shichibukai, that all of the remaining Sun Pirates became the Arlong Pirates. Guess only half the crew went with Arlong, and the rest stayed with Jinbe, and are now under Big Mom. Haki on Haki would certainly mean Haki defense vs Haki offense. I don't see why this couldn't work, because it surely shows how much each person has mastered his/her extent of Haki. You could probably say that Ace didn't really master his Haki to a good enough extent, that's why it barely showed when he was fighting. Then explain how the strongest person in the world, Whitebeard, who also obviously has stronger Haki than anyone else, is able to take damage at all, much less take damage from random marine soldiers shooting him with guns? If "Haki defense" can defend against Akainu's punch, then obviously they would be able to defend against a gun or sword from a random dude.
It seems like Haki has to be activated, and isn't always on. So a Haki user without a devil fruit is pretty vulnerable if surprised. I'm not sure if you can use more than one Haki at a time.
Also, most high-level characters can dodge bullets, probably using the Haki that gives information (what is it called again?).
Whitebeard could barely use the Haki of Armament in his last fight, remember that he could barely stand, his heart stopped beating and his lungs were full of magma. And it was still enough to take out Akainu, arguably the strongest marine.
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On January 16 2012 08:18 ChrisXIV wrote:Show nested quote +On January 16 2012 07:59 Sentenal wrote:On January 15 2012 23:01 divinesage wrote:On January 13 2012 05:25 Sentenal wrote:On January 13 2012 04:54 AsnSensation wrote:On January 12 2012 18:22 Sentenal wrote:On January 12 2012 18:11 divinesage wrote:On January 02 2012 01:39 Numy wrote:On January 02 2012 01:14 Milkis wrote:On January 01 2012 19:58 Sentenal wrote:
[quote]
Luffy being able to use Haki should be his trump card against all those previously seemingly invincible abilities. I don't think there is a need for another Devil Fruit. And Ace couldn't use Haki? that seems *very* unlikely. Ace didn't know blackbeards abilities and pushed him to the edge right? I guess the blackbeard now is better than the blackbeard then though Ace had Haki. It isn't as strong as Blackbeard or the Admirals which explains why he got totally trumped by Akainu. If he had stronger Haki, even if Akainu's fruit was superior to his, he would have been able to hold off his attacks. Think back when Whitebeard attacked Aokiji, I think Whitebeard wasn't exactly serious with his attacks otherwise his Haki would have broken through Aokiji's Haki and hurt him. Haki is present in everyone, but to manifest it, much training is requires. Also, I believe characters' that have stronger Haki would be able to negate weaker characters' Haki I don't think Haki works quiet like that. You don't simiply measure who has "stronger" haki in cases like that, I can almost guarantee you its all based on use and skill. Whitebeard attacks with Haki, and then Akainu uses it to block the attack. Ace himself only used Haoshoku Haki once, in that Flashback, and was never shown using it outside of that, which suggests to me at least that he was probably not as skilled in its use. I have to agree with that, seems kinda logic. Also For the people complaining why WB couldnt do shit against logias until he went nuts against Akainu, for example when he stabbed Aokiji with his sword, I assume he dematerialized logia style before whtebeard even stabbed him. Though I remember a few panels when he slashed Kizaru and nothing happened. Maybe he was just too weak at that point to even use Haki, it's weird for the strongest man nevertheless. While people were discussing if Smoker still uses his seastone tip stick, I found the following while rereading the chapter http://mangastream.com/read/one_piece/48504148/18top right panel, the long thing behind him, thats probably it? Yeah, looks like he has some big stick, anyway. As for the Whitebeard/Haki/Logia stuff, lots of potential reasons why it worked out like it did. Dematerializing is possible too, Haki defense is possible, but I highly doubt Haki on Haki is just some simple powerlevel measurement. That would be very un-One Piece like. Edit: Another thing I noticed, the Sun Pirates are still around. I always thought that when Jinbe became Shichibukai, that all of the remaining Sun Pirates became the Arlong Pirates. Guess only half the crew went with Arlong, and the rest stayed with Jinbe, and are now under Big Mom. Haki on Haki would certainly mean Haki defense vs Haki offense. I don't see why this couldn't work, because it surely shows how much each person has mastered his/her extent of Haki. You could probably say that Ace didn't really master his Haki to a good enough extent, that's why it barely showed when he was fighting. Then explain how the strongest person in the world, Whitebeard, who also obviously has stronger Haki than anyone else, is able to take damage at all, much less take damage from random marine soldiers shooting him with guns? If "Haki defense" can defend against Akainu's punch, then obviously they would be able to defend against a gun or sword from a random dude. It seems like Haki has to be activated, and isn't always on. So a Haki user without a devil fruit is pretty vulnerable if surprised. I'm not sure if you can use more than one Haki at a time. Also, most high-level characters can dodge bullets, probably using the Haki that gives information (what is it called again?). Whitebeard could barely use the Haki of Armament in his last fight, remember that he could barely stand, his heart stopped beating and his lungs were full of magma. And it was still enough to take out Akainu, arguably the strongest marine.
Barely? He had was able to use it to beat the hell out of Akainu, despite all of that. He has the power to land blows on one of the strongest marines, while his insides are full of magma, but still for some reason doesn't have enough to block a random marine's gun?
There are plenty of haki users who have taken damage in that battle, and even recently with Luffy. Unless you are going to tell me Hodi has stronger Haki than Luffy, how exactly does Luffy take damage from him?
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On January 16 2012 07:59 Sentenal wrote:Show nested quote +On January 15 2012 23:01 divinesage wrote:On January 13 2012 05:25 Sentenal wrote:On January 13 2012 04:54 AsnSensation wrote:On January 12 2012 18:22 Sentenal wrote:On January 12 2012 18:11 divinesage wrote:On January 02 2012 01:39 Numy wrote:On January 02 2012 01:14 Milkis wrote:On January 01 2012 19:58 Sentenal wrote:On January 01 2012 16:09 Milkis wrote:i reread thriller bark and it's pretty interesting how in the same arc you see both the full destruction capabilities of both kuma's nikyu fruit and blackbeard's darkness fruit :O i really think luffy needs that fruit to fight blackbeard Luffy being able to use Haki should be his trump card against all those previously seemingly invincible abilities. I don't think there is a need for another Devil Fruit. And Ace couldn't use Haki? that seems *very* unlikely. Ace didn't know blackbeards abilities and pushed him to the edge right? I guess the blackbeard now is better than the blackbeard then though Ace had Haki. It isn't as strong as Blackbeard or the Admirals which explains why he got totally trumped by Akainu. If he had stronger Haki, even if Akainu's fruit was superior to his, he would have been able to hold off his attacks. Think back when Whitebeard attacked Aokiji, I think Whitebeard wasn't exactly serious with his attacks otherwise his Haki would have broken through Aokiji's Haki and hurt him. Haki is present in everyone, but to manifest it, much training is requires. Also, I believe characters' that have stronger Haki would be able to negate weaker characters' Haki I don't think Haki works quiet like that. You don't simiply measure who has "stronger" haki in cases like that, I can almost guarantee you its all based on use and skill. Whitebeard attacks with Haki, and then Akainu uses it to block the attack. Ace himself only used Haoshoku Haki once, in that Flashback, and was never shown using it outside of that, which suggests to me at least that he was probably not as skilled in its use. I have to agree with that, seems kinda logic. Also For the people complaining why WB couldnt do shit against logias until he went nuts against Akainu, for example when he stabbed Aokiji with his sword, I assume he dematerialized logia style before whtebeard even stabbed him. Though I remember a few panels when he slashed Kizaru and nothing happened. Maybe he was just too weak at that point to even use Haki, it's weird for the strongest man nevertheless. While people were discussing if Smoker still uses his seastone tip stick, I found the following while rereading the chapter http://mangastream.com/read/one_piece/48504148/18top right panel, the long thing behind him, thats probably it? Yeah, looks like he has some big stick, anyway. As for the Whitebeard/Haki/Logia stuff, lots of potential reasons why it worked out like it did. Dematerializing is possible too, Haki defense is possible, but I highly doubt Haki on Haki is just some simple powerlevel measurement. That would be very un-One Piece like. Edit: Another thing I noticed, the Sun Pirates are still around. I always thought that when Jinbe became Shichibukai, that all of the remaining Sun Pirates became the Arlong Pirates. Guess only half the crew went with Arlong, and the rest stayed with Jinbe, and are now under Big Mom. Haki on Haki would certainly mean Haki defense vs Haki offense. I don't see why this couldn't work, because it surely shows how much each person has mastered his/her extent of Haki. You could probably say that Ace didn't really master his Haki to a good enough extent, that's why it barely showed when he was fighting. Then explain how the strongest person in the world, Whitebeard, who also obviously has stronger Haki than anyone else, is able to take damage at all, much less take damage from random marine soldiers shooting him with guns? If "Haki defense" can defend against Akainu's punch, then obviously they would be able to defend against a gun or sword from a random dude.
Whitebeard is the "strongest person in the world" based on his DF, which arguably has the power to destroy the world. No one ever said his haki was strongest. Don't forget, Roger was stronger than Whitebeard, and Garp and perhaps Sengoku were about equal to garp at the time. Add in the fact that Whitebeard seems to have aged the worse out of them and it's perfectly possible that both Garp and Sengoku are stronger than Whitebeard.
tl:dr Whitebeard's haki level may not actually be the strongest. Because there is still a lot about haki that we don't understand, we can't really jump to any conclusions on how it works in fights
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On January 16 2012 08:27 Sentenal wrote:Show nested quote +On January 16 2012 08:18 ChrisXIV wrote:On January 16 2012 07:59 Sentenal wrote:On January 15 2012 23:01 divinesage wrote:On January 13 2012 05:25 Sentenal wrote:On January 13 2012 04:54 AsnSensation wrote:On January 12 2012 18:22 Sentenal wrote:On January 12 2012 18:11 divinesage wrote:On January 02 2012 01:39 Numy wrote:On January 02 2012 01:14 Milkis wrote:
[quote]
And Ace couldn't use Haki? that seems *very* unlikely. Ace didn't know blackbeards abilities and pushed him to the edge right? I guess the blackbeard now is better than the blackbeard then though Ace had Haki. It isn't as strong as Blackbeard or the Admirals which explains why he got totally trumped by Akainu. If he had stronger Haki, even if Akainu's fruit was superior to his, he would have been able to hold off his attacks. Think back when Whitebeard attacked Aokiji, I think Whitebeard wasn't exactly serious with his attacks otherwise his Haki would have broken through Aokiji's Haki and hurt him. Haki is present in everyone, but to manifest it, much training is requires. Also, I believe characters' that have stronger Haki would be able to negate weaker characters' Haki I don't think Haki works quiet like that. You don't simiply measure who has "stronger" haki in cases like that, I can almost guarantee you its all based on use and skill. Whitebeard attacks with Haki, and then Akainu uses it to block the attack. Ace himself only used Haoshoku Haki once, in that Flashback, and was never shown using it outside of that, which suggests to me at least that he was probably not as skilled in its use. I have to agree with that, seems kinda logic. Also For the people complaining why WB couldnt do shit against logias until he went nuts against Akainu, for example when he stabbed Aokiji with his sword, I assume he dematerialized logia style before whtebeard even stabbed him. Though I remember a few panels when he slashed Kizaru and nothing happened. Maybe he was just too weak at that point to even use Haki, it's weird for the strongest man nevertheless. While people were discussing if Smoker still uses his seastone tip stick, I found the following while rereading the chapter http://mangastream.com/read/one_piece/48504148/18top right panel, the long thing behind him, thats probably it? Yeah, looks like he has some big stick, anyway. As for the Whitebeard/Haki/Logia stuff, lots of potential reasons why it worked out like it did. Dematerializing is possible too, Haki defense is possible, but I highly doubt Haki on Haki is just some simple powerlevel measurement. That would be very un-One Piece like. Edit: Another thing I noticed, the Sun Pirates are still around. I always thought that when Jinbe became Shichibukai, that all of the remaining Sun Pirates became the Arlong Pirates. Guess only half the crew went with Arlong, and the rest stayed with Jinbe, and are now under Big Mom. Haki on Haki would certainly mean Haki defense vs Haki offense. I don't see why this couldn't work, because it surely shows how much each person has mastered his/her extent of Haki. You could probably say that Ace didn't really master his Haki to a good enough extent, that's why it barely showed when he was fighting. Then explain how the strongest person in the world, Whitebeard, who also obviously has stronger Haki than anyone else, is able to take damage at all, much less take damage from random marine soldiers shooting him with guns? If "Haki defense" can defend against Akainu's punch, then obviously they would be able to defend against a gun or sword from a random dude. It seems like Haki has to be activated, and isn't always on. So a Haki user without a devil fruit is pretty vulnerable if surprised. I'm not sure if you can use more than one Haki at a time. Also, most high-level characters can dodge bullets, probably using the Haki that gives information (what is it called again?). Whitebeard could barely use the Haki of Armament in his last fight, remember that he could barely stand, his heart stopped beating and his lungs were full of magma. And it was still enough to take out Akainu, arguably the strongest marine. Barely? He had was able to use it to beat the hell out of Akainu, despite all of that. He has the power to land blows on one of the strongest marines, while his insides are full of magma, but still for some reason doesn't have enough to block a random marine's gun? There are plenty of haki users who have taken damage in that battle, and even recently with Luffy. Unless you are going to tell me Hodi has stronger Haki than Luffy, how exactly does Luffy take damage from him?
The better question is how he could let that squid guy or whatever his name was stab him, if he has the observation haki.
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We are getting off point. My point was that Haki vs Haki isn't a simple power level contest. I've just been showing examples that support it. There is alot we don't know about it, and I still maintain that the use of Haki all comes down to skill and tactical use.
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On January 16 2012 10:01 Warri wrote:Show nested quote +On January 16 2012 08:27 Sentenal wrote:On January 16 2012 08:18 ChrisXIV wrote:On January 16 2012 07:59 Sentenal wrote:On January 15 2012 23:01 divinesage wrote:On January 13 2012 05:25 Sentenal wrote:On January 13 2012 04:54 AsnSensation wrote:On January 12 2012 18:22 Sentenal wrote:On January 12 2012 18:11 divinesage wrote:On January 02 2012 01:39 Numy wrote:
[quote]
Ace didn't know blackbeards abilities and pushed him to the edge right? I guess the blackbeard now is better than the blackbeard then though Ace had Haki. It isn't as strong as Blackbeard or the Admirals which explains why he got totally trumped by Akainu. If he had stronger Haki, even if Akainu's fruit was superior to his, he would have been able to hold off his attacks. Think back when Whitebeard attacked Aokiji, I think Whitebeard wasn't exactly serious with his attacks otherwise his Haki would have broken through Aokiji's Haki and hurt him. Haki is present in everyone, but to manifest it, much training is requires. Also, I believe characters' that have stronger Haki would be able to negate weaker characters' Haki I don't think Haki works quiet like that. You don't simiply measure who has "stronger" haki in cases like that, I can almost guarantee you its all based on use and skill. Whitebeard attacks with Haki, and then Akainu uses it to block the attack. Ace himself only used Haoshoku Haki once, in that Flashback, and was never shown using it outside of that, which suggests to me at least that he was probably not as skilled in its use. I have to agree with that, seems kinda logic. Also For the people complaining why WB couldnt do shit against logias until he went nuts against Akainu, for example when he stabbed Aokiji with his sword, I assume he dematerialized logia style before whtebeard even stabbed him. Though I remember a few panels when he slashed Kizaru and nothing happened. Maybe he was just too weak at that point to even use Haki, it's weird for the strongest man nevertheless. While people were discussing if Smoker still uses his seastone tip stick, I found the following while rereading the chapter http://mangastream.com/read/one_piece/48504148/18top right panel, the long thing behind him, thats probably it? Yeah, looks like he has some big stick, anyway. As for the Whitebeard/Haki/Logia stuff, lots of potential reasons why it worked out like it did. Dematerializing is possible too, Haki defense is possible, but I highly doubt Haki on Haki is just some simple powerlevel measurement. That would be very un-One Piece like. Edit: Another thing I noticed, the Sun Pirates are still around. I always thought that when Jinbe became Shichibukai, that all of the remaining Sun Pirates became the Arlong Pirates. Guess only half the crew went with Arlong, and the rest stayed with Jinbe, and are now under Big Mom. Haki on Haki would certainly mean Haki defense vs Haki offense. I don't see why this couldn't work, because it surely shows how much each person has mastered his/her extent of Haki. You could probably say that Ace didn't really master his Haki to a good enough extent, that's why it barely showed when he was fighting. Then explain how the strongest person in the world, Whitebeard, who also obviously has stronger Haki than anyone else, is able to take damage at all, much less take damage from random marine soldiers shooting him with guns? If "Haki defense" can defend against Akainu's punch, then obviously they would be able to defend against a gun or sword from a random dude. It seems like Haki has to be activated, and isn't always on. So a Haki user without a devil fruit is pretty vulnerable if surprised. I'm not sure if you can use more than one Haki at a time. Also, most high-level characters can dodge bullets, probably using the Haki that gives information (what is it called again?). Whitebeard could barely use the Haki of Armament in his last fight, remember that he could barely stand, his heart stopped beating and his lungs were full of magma. And it was still enough to take out Akainu, arguably the strongest marine. Barely? He had was able to use it to beat the hell out of Akainu, despite all of that. He has the power to land blows on one of the strongest marines, while his insides are full of magma, but still for some reason doesn't have enough to block a random marine's gun? There are plenty of haki users who have taken damage in that battle, and even recently with Luffy. Unless you are going to tell me Hodi has stronger Haki than Luffy, how exactly does Luffy take damage from him? The better question is how he could let that squid guy or whatever his name was stab him, if he has the observation haki.
Because he didn't expect to be attacked by him? It's not like Observation Haki is some passive ability that allows a person to see everyone and everything around them.
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On January 16 2012 14:17 killa_robot wrote:Show nested quote +On January 16 2012 10:01 Warri wrote:On January 16 2012 08:27 Sentenal wrote:On January 16 2012 08:18 ChrisXIV wrote:On January 16 2012 07:59 Sentenal wrote:On January 15 2012 23:01 divinesage wrote:On January 13 2012 05:25 Sentenal wrote:On January 13 2012 04:54 AsnSensation wrote:On January 12 2012 18:22 Sentenal wrote:On January 12 2012 18:11 divinesage wrote:
[quote]
Ace had Haki. It isn't as strong as Blackbeard or the Admirals which explains why he got totally trumped by Akainu. If he had stronger Haki, even if Akainu's fruit was superior to his, he would have been able to hold off his attacks. Think back when Whitebeard attacked Aokiji, I think Whitebeard wasn't exactly serious with his attacks otherwise his Haki would have broken through Aokiji's Haki and hurt him.
Haki is present in everyone, but to manifest it, much training is requires. Also, I believe characters' that have stronger Haki would be able to negate weaker characters' Haki I don't think Haki works quiet like that. You don't simiply measure who has "stronger" haki in cases like that, I can almost guarantee you its all based on use and skill. Whitebeard attacks with Haki, and then Akainu uses it to block the attack. Ace himself only used Haoshoku Haki once, in that Flashback, and was never shown using it outside of that, which suggests to me at least that he was probably not as skilled in its use. I have to agree with that, seems kinda logic. Also For the people complaining why WB couldnt do shit against logias until he went nuts against Akainu, for example when he stabbed Aokiji with his sword, I assume he dematerialized logia style before whtebeard even stabbed him. Though I remember a few panels when he slashed Kizaru and nothing happened. Maybe he was just too weak at that point to even use Haki, it's weird for the strongest man nevertheless. While people were discussing if Smoker still uses his seastone tip stick, I found the following while rereading the chapter http://mangastream.com/read/one_piece/48504148/18top right panel, the long thing behind him, thats probably it? Yeah, looks like he has some big stick, anyway. As for the Whitebeard/Haki/Logia stuff, lots of potential reasons why it worked out like it did. Dematerializing is possible too, Haki defense is possible, but I highly doubt Haki on Haki is just some simple powerlevel measurement. That would be very un-One Piece like. Edit: Another thing I noticed, the Sun Pirates are still around. I always thought that when Jinbe became Shichibukai, that all of the remaining Sun Pirates became the Arlong Pirates. Guess only half the crew went with Arlong, and the rest stayed with Jinbe, and are now under Big Mom. Haki on Haki would certainly mean Haki defense vs Haki offense. I don't see why this couldn't work, because it surely shows how much each person has mastered his/her extent of Haki. You could probably say that Ace didn't really master his Haki to a good enough extent, that's why it barely showed when he was fighting. Then explain how the strongest person in the world, Whitebeard, who also obviously has stronger Haki than anyone else, is able to take damage at all, much less take damage from random marine soldiers shooting him with guns? If "Haki defense" can defend against Akainu's punch, then obviously they would be able to defend against a gun or sword from a random dude. It seems like Haki has to be activated, and isn't always on. So a Haki user without a devil fruit is pretty vulnerable if surprised. I'm not sure if you can use more than one Haki at a time. Also, most high-level characters can dodge bullets, probably using the Haki that gives information (what is it called again?). Whitebeard could barely use the Haki of Armament in his last fight, remember that he could barely stand, his heart stopped beating and his lungs were full of magma. And it was still enough to take out Akainu, arguably the strongest marine. Barely? He had was able to use it to beat the hell out of Akainu, despite all of that. He has the power to land blows on one of the strongest marines, while his insides are full of magma, but still for some reason doesn't have enough to block a random marine's gun? There are plenty of haki users who have taken damage in that battle, and even recently with Luffy. Unless you are going to tell me Hodi has stronger Haki than Luffy, how exactly does Luffy take damage from him? The better question is how he could let that squid guy or whatever his name was stab him, if he has the observation haki. Because he didn't expect to be attacked by him? It's not like Observation Haki is some passive ability that allows a person to see everyone and everything around them.
but luffy, iirc, attacked a random guy in the middle of the battlefield and predicted that mihawk would cut his arms off if he did that, without even knowing about haki back then. And yes, actually that is exactly how rayleigh describes that haki, isnt it?
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On January 16 2012 15:05 Warri wrote:Show nested quote +On January 16 2012 14:17 killa_robot wrote:On January 16 2012 10:01 Warri wrote:On January 16 2012 08:27 Sentenal wrote:On January 16 2012 08:18 ChrisXIV wrote:On January 16 2012 07:59 Sentenal wrote:On January 15 2012 23:01 divinesage wrote:On January 13 2012 05:25 Sentenal wrote:On January 13 2012 04:54 AsnSensation wrote:On January 12 2012 18:22 Sentenal wrote:
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I don't think Haki works quiet like that. You don't simiply measure who has "stronger" haki in cases like that, I can almost guarantee you its all based on use and skill. Whitebeard attacks with Haki, and then Akainu uses it to block the attack. Ace himself only used Haoshoku Haki once, in that Flashback, and was never shown using it outside of that, which suggests to me at least that he was probably not as skilled in its use. I have to agree with that, seems kinda logic. Also For the people complaining why WB couldnt do shit against logias until he went nuts against Akainu, for example when he stabbed Aokiji with his sword, I assume he dematerialized logia style before whtebeard even stabbed him. Though I remember a few panels when he slashed Kizaru and nothing happened. Maybe he was just too weak at that point to even use Haki, it's weird for the strongest man nevertheless. While people were discussing if Smoker still uses his seastone tip stick, I found the following while rereading the chapter http://mangastream.com/read/one_piece/48504148/18top right panel, the long thing behind him, thats probably it? Yeah, looks like he has some big stick, anyway. As for the Whitebeard/Haki/Logia stuff, lots of potential reasons why it worked out like it did. Dematerializing is possible too, Haki defense is possible, but I highly doubt Haki on Haki is just some simple powerlevel measurement. That would be very un-One Piece like. Edit: Another thing I noticed, the Sun Pirates are still around. I always thought that when Jinbe became Shichibukai, that all of the remaining Sun Pirates became the Arlong Pirates. Guess only half the crew went with Arlong, and the rest stayed with Jinbe, and are now under Big Mom. Haki on Haki would certainly mean Haki defense vs Haki offense. I don't see why this couldn't work, because it surely shows how much each person has mastered his/her extent of Haki. You could probably say that Ace didn't really master his Haki to a good enough extent, that's why it barely showed when he was fighting. Then explain how the strongest person in the world, Whitebeard, who also obviously has stronger Haki than anyone else, is able to take damage at all, much less take damage from random marine soldiers shooting him with guns? If "Haki defense" can defend against Akainu's punch, then obviously they would be able to defend against a gun or sword from a random dude. It seems like Haki has to be activated, and isn't always on. So a Haki user without a devil fruit is pretty vulnerable if surprised. I'm not sure if you can use more than one Haki at a time. Also, most high-level characters can dodge bullets, probably using the Haki that gives information (what is it called again?). Whitebeard could barely use the Haki of Armament in his last fight, remember that he could barely stand, his heart stopped beating and his lungs were full of magma. And it was still enough to take out Akainu, arguably the strongest marine. Barely? He had was able to use it to beat the hell out of Akainu, despite all of that. He has the power to land blows on one of the strongest marines, while his insides are full of magma, but still for some reason doesn't have enough to block a random marine's gun? There are plenty of haki users who have taken damage in that battle, and even recently with Luffy. Unless you are going to tell me Hodi has stronger Haki than Luffy, how exactly does Luffy take damage from him? The better question is how he could let that squid guy or whatever his name was stab him, if he has the observation haki. Because he didn't expect to be attacked by him? It's not like Observation Haki is some passive ability that allows a person to see everyone and everything around them. but luffy, iirc, attacked a random guy in the middle of the battlefield and predicted that mihawk would cut his arms off if he did that, without even knowing about haki back then. And yes, actually that is exactly how rayleigh describes that haki, isnt it?
No, that's how Rayleigh describes the existence of haki, not it's use. Everyone has haki, regardless if they can use it or not. Luffy predicted his arms would be cut off because all his focus was on that act at that moment in time. He was attacking Mihawk, looked right into his eyes, and then realized his arm would be cut off if he finished his attack.
You can use haki just fine without knowing it exists, you just won't have any idea of whats going on.
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Regarding WB use/mis-use of haki...I think people forgot what Rayleigh said about how people train their haki; that there are those that specialize (such a Enel) and others that are well rounded in all 3 (Rayleigh/Luffy).
Was ever established that WB was a well-rounded haki user? cause I would give an educated guess that hes mainly an armorment user. Also given hes age and poor health I very much doubt he would be able to keep his haki on all the time to protect himself. Besides why bother against the majority of the marines being ants while there are the admirals to save use it on?
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Marco himself said that the reason Whitebeard wasn't able to predict Squardo stabbing him due to failing health. Whitebeard used the prediction Haki plenty of times when they showed Ace trying to assassinate him in the past. There were times when Whitebeard even used it in his sleep.
Besides why bother against the majority of the marines being ants while there are the admirals to save use it on? So is Haki some sort of resource, to be used sometimes, and if you use it too much, you are out?
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On January 16 2012 15:05 Warri wrote:
but luffy, iirc, attacked a random guy in the middle of the battlefield and predicted that mihawk would cut his arms off if he did that, without even knowing about haki back then. And yes, actually that is exactly how rayleigh describes that haki, isnt it?
I'd say that's just more Luffy thinking about the attack based on past experience. Multiple people have been able to dodge and/or grab his arm. He knew Mihawk was crazy good and had a high chance of dodging... and the counter attack after a dodge while Luffy was still reeling his arm back in was obvious. Didn't really need Haki for that. Just had to stop and think about it.
I'd look at the armament haki much like armor. If the person is less skilled and still working on it, they have say leather haki armor. Somebody very skilled would have fullplate haki armor (and then Gundam haki armor, trolololo). It just takes more force to get through and actually hurt someone when they're wearing armor. Haki helps with that, but isn't completely 100% required. I'd say that Hodi 'pierced' Luffy's haki armor with brute strength.
http://www.manga-access.com/manga/O/One_Piece/chapter/641/9
Luffy basically said that he was using haki to shield himself, but Hodi just overpowered Luffy's current haki 'armor' strength. Or maybe he referred to the piercing nature of getting bitten or something... either way Hodi, who appears to have no haki, hurt Luffy while Luffy was using haki to protect himself.
Essentially the haki strength seems to stack on top of the normal attack or defense strength. And haki attack strength of course negates a devil fruit's defensive ability (such as a logia fruit, or Luffy's rubber). Enough natural strength can bust through a haki defense and vice verus, more or less how Luffy has beaten some of the people that use haki up to this point - with sheer brute force overpowering their combined haki + normal defense. If, for example, Mihawk slashed Luffy without using haki (we still haven't really been told if Mihawk uses haki or not in any way - armament isn't too bad for a sword to get past theoretically, it's observation haki that would fuck with pure swordsmen) while Luffy was defending himself with haki, Mihawk would likely overpower Luffy's haki and still cut him. Add on haki to the attack and you basically have Whitebeard stabbing Aokiji, where Aokiji decided to not have his body there instead of trying to directly go toe to toe with Whitebeard in a power contest.
Probably why Akainu boasts about his power so much. Need a pretty high level of defense to not get fucked up by a bunch of magma/lava crashing into you. Add haki on top of that and you have a hole in Whitebeard's chest. Which just further reinforces Shanks being such a fucking badass for stopping Akainu cold.
Random sidenote: Luffy gets bitten through haki armor by Hodi. Shanks had his arm bitten off by an otherwise weak sea monster. Hard to say if Oda just had him lose an arm for effect (+ Shanks winning staredown contest after) or if he actually had all the haki stuff fleshed out back then, though I wouldn't put it past Oda to already have haki that far back. Would assume that if he had all the haki stuff fleshed out, Shanks would've just aoe knocked out the monster. Kind of like when he visits Whitebeard later and he knocks out the weaker members of Whitebeard's crew just for walking on board (aka, not able to fully control conqueror's yet and thus would've knocked Luffy unconscious if he used it against the monster)... though he probably just did that to be an ass to Whitebeard's crew. I remember Whitebeard briefly mentioning Shank's 'creepy aura' more or less stating that Whitebeard (like many) was unable to use Conqueror's haki himself.
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On January 16 2012 18:04 Sentenal wrote:Marco himself said that the reason Whitebeard wasn't able to predict Squardo stabbing him due to failing health. Whitebeard used the prediction Haki plenty of times when they showed Ace trying to assassinate him in the past. There were times when Whitebeard even used it in his sleep. Show nested quote +Besides why bother against the majority of the marines being ants while there are the admirals to save use it on? So is Haki some sort of resource, to be used sometimes, and if you use it too much, you are out?
It would make sense keeping and using haki would be slightly taxing, depending on the amount expended. This would also make sense since failing health may have caused WB to keep haki use on low to reserve his strength. This could have caused him to not expect the blow from Squardo.
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On January 17 2012 07:53 Dark_Chill wrote:Show nested quote +On January 16 2012 18:04 Sentenal wrote:Marco himself said that the reason Whitebeard wasn't able to predict Squardo stabbing him due to failing health. Whitebeard used the prediction Haki plenty of times when they showed Ace trying to assassinate him in the past. There were times when Whitebeard even used it in his sleep. Besides why bother against the majority of the marines being ants while there are the admirals to save use it on? So is Haki some sort of resource, to be used sometimes, and if you use it too much, you are out? It would make sense keeping and using haki would be slightly taxing, depending on the amount expended. This would also make sense since failing health may have caused WB to keep haki use on low to reserve his strength. This could have caused him to not expect the blow from Squardo.
Yea I wouldn't say haki itself is a resource, but it definitely uses stamina when used.
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On January 17 2012 08:04 killa_robot wrote:Show nested quote +On January 17 2012 07:53 Dark_Chill wrote:On January 16 2012 18:04 Sentenal wrote:Marco himself said that the reason Whitebeard wasn't able to predict Squardo stabbing him due to failing health. Whitebeard used the prediction Haki plenty of times when they showed Ace trying to assassinate him in the past. There were times when Whitebeard even used it in his sleep. Besides why bother against the majority of the marines being ants while there are the admirals to save use it on? So is Haki some sort of resource, to be used sometimes, and if you use it too much, you are out? It would make sense keeping and using haki would be slightly taxing, depending on the amount expended. This would also make sense since failing health may have caused WB to keep haki use on low to reserve his strength. This could have caused him to not expect the blow from Squardo. Yea I wouldn't say haki itself is a resource, but it definitely uses stamina when used.
yeah that was bad wording on my part.. i simply mean that using haki constantly would make anyone tired in general. NOT that haki was a resource
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lol that was a scary face/ Long live King Luffy
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10387 Posts
On January 16 2012 22:32 Vortok wrote:Show nested quote +On January 16 2012 15:05 Warri wrote:
but luffy, iirc, attacked a random guy in the middle of the battlefield and predicted that mihawk would cut his arms off if he did that, without even knowing about haki back then. And yes, actually that is exactly how rayleigh describes that haki, isnt it?
I'd say that's just more Luffy thinking about the attack based on past experience. Multiple people have been able to dodge and/or grab his arm. He knew Mihawk was crazy good and had a high chance of dodging... and the counter attack after a dodge while Luffy was still reeling his arm back in was obvious. Didn't really need Haki for that. Just had to stop and think about it. I'd look at the armament haki much like armor. If the person is less skilled and still working on it, they have say leather haki armor. Somebody very skilled would have fullplate haki armor (and then Gundam haki armor, trolololo). It just takes more force to get through and actually hurt someone when they're wearing armor. Haki helps with that, but isn't completely 100% required. I'd say that Hodi 'pierced' Luffy's haki armor with brute strength. http://www.manga-access.com/manga/O/One_Piece/chapter/641/9Luffy basically said that he was using haki to shield himself, but Hodi just overpowered Luffy's current haki 'armor' strength. Or maybe he referred to the piercing nature of getting bitten or something... either way Hodi, who appears to have no haki, hurt Luffy while Luffy was using haki to protect himself. Essentially the haki strength seems to stack on top of the normal attack or defense strength. And haki attack strength of course negates a devil fruit's defensive ability (such as a logia fruit, or Luffy's rubber). Enough natural strength can bust through a haki defense and vice verus, more or less how Luffy has beaten some of the people that use haki up to this point - with sheer brute force overpowering their combined haki + normal defense. If, for example, Mihawk slashed Luffy without using haki (we still haven't really been told if Mihawk uses haki or not in any way - armament isn't too bad for a sword to get past theoretically, it's observation haki that would fuck with pure swordsmen) while Luffy was defending himself with haki, Mihawk would likely overpower Luffy's haki and still cut him. Add on haki to the attack and you basically have Whitebeard stabbing Aokiji, where Aokiji decided to not have his body there instead of trying to directly go toe to toe with Whitebeard in a power contest. Probably why Akainu boasts about his power so much. Need a pretty high level of defense to not get fucked up by a bunch of magma/lava crashing into you. Add haki on top of that and you have a hole in Whitebeard's chest. Which just further reinforces Shanks being such a fucking badass for stopping Akainu cold. Random sidenote: Luffy gets bitten through haki armor by Hodi. Shanks had his arm bitten off by an otherwise weak sea monster. Hard to say if Oda just had him lose an arm for effect (+ Shanks winning staredown contest after) or if he actually had all the haki stuff fleshed out back then, though I wouldn't put it past Oda to already have haki that far back. Would assume that if he had all the haki stuff fleshed out, Shanks would've just aoe knocked out the monster. Kind of like when he visits Whitebeard later and he knocks out the weaker members of Whitebeard's crew just for walking on board (aka, not able to fully control conqueror's yet and thus would've knocked Luffy unconscious if he used it against the monster)... though he probably just did that to be an ass to Whitebeard's crew. I remember Whitebeard briefly mentioning Shank's 'creepy aura' more or less stating that Whitebeard (like many) was unable to use Conqueror's haki himself.
I'm thinking how armaments haki works is that its just more susceptible to stabbing/blade-type attacks, much like how bullet-proof vests work. And Whitebeard definitely had conqueror's haki
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EPT
