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All book discussion in this thread is now allowed. |
On April 30 2013 23:25 PerryHooter wrote:Robb is starting to remind me of Arthas from the WC3 campaign, partly because he looked so tortured just after the execution. And the "he was only the watcher, hang him last so he can watch the others die" felt more like a Joffrey-line than one from Robb. He's really starting to scare me. I like the Jaime bit though, looks like he's not pure evil like his sister and father. The douchebag-attitude he's had earlier was probably just a way of shielding himself from constantly getting hurt by being called 'Kingslayer'. I feel the Jaime-character would make more sense if it instead had been Cersei pushing Bran out the window, but I don't mind the complexity in Jaime. Show nested quote +On April 30 2013 13:57 Emnjay808 wrote:
Still bothers me how no one questioned Joffrey's real father. I mean, seriously, did you need to read a book to remind yourself that the line of Baratheon sons were black of hair. The way I see it, it's not impossible for a Baratheon son (or daughter) to have anything else but black hair, it's just uncommon. Ned reading that book gave him the idea that Joffrey might not be Robert's son but Jaime's, and that coupled with the fact that it would explained how Bran fell out through the window was evidence enough for him to confront Cersei, who confirmed it. At least that works as a perfectly plausible explanation for me.
THAT'S who he reminded me of... the whole execution scene and the way Robb said everything reminded me of the whole "This city must be purged" speech and Arthas dismissing Uther in WC3. Except I don't think Robb is going to come back stronger as the leader of the Undead.
It's reminding me a lot of the ending of Macbeth as well, where Macbeth can't really do anything to solve his problems, and no matter what he's doing, he just digs himself a deeper hole. In the end, only his most loyal men remain at his side (or his most fearful). Robb is doing that here too. Frey left him because Robb couldn't see past the end of his dick (you could argue that he was fighting the nobility's tradition of marriages for business, but I still contend that he was simply thinking with the wrong head in that scenario), his mother accidentally traded away his hostage (although technically he's in Bolton's hands now but Robb doesn't know this), his generals are all retards (steel mill acquired, hooray) his army is slowly leaving him, and he can't do anything because no matter what he does, he'll piss off someone who was his friend before.
Executing Karstark was the right decision though, the lord's soldiers wouldn't have fought effectively for Robb either way, and this way he still gets the respect from the rest of his troops for executing Karstark for treason.
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OK im waaay behind on this thread, but i remember reading in a Norwegian newspaper that if the show was succesful, it would take 8 seasons to finish the show. This was from some source i dont remember, but it was written just before season 2 started, and just after i started watching season 1, so it burnt itself into my memory.
On the other hand, me and my friend have a theory that the dragons need to be ridden. Deny will ride one, the second one i had Brann riding, but after realising his talent was "worging" or whatever im not so sure anymore. However when i saw Stannises daughter i was like " SHE HAEV TEH DRAGON SCALES ON HER FACE DAWG!!" and now she is suspect number 3 for Dragon Rider.
So thats my 2 cents 
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On May 01 2013 05:12 [UoN]Sentinel wrote:Show nested quote +On April 30 2013 23:25 PerryHooter wrote:Robb is starting to remind me of Arthas from the WC3 campaign, partly because he looked so tortured just after the execution. And the "he was only the watcher, hang him last so he can watch the others die" felt more like a Joffrey-line than one from Robb. He's really starting to scare me. I like the Jaime bit though, looks like he's not pure evil like his sister and father. The douchebag-attitude he's had earlier was probably just a way of shielding himself from constantly getting hurt by being called 'Kingslayer'. I feel the Jaime-character would make more sense if it instead had been Cersei pushing Bran out the window, but I don't mind the complexity in Jaime. On April 30 2013 13:57 Emnjay808 wrote:
Still bothers me how no one questioned Joffrey's real father. I mean, seriously, did you need to read a book to remind yourself that the line of Baratheon sons were black of hair. The way I see it, it's not impossible for a Baratheon son (or daughter) to have anything else but black hair, it's just uncommon. Ned reading that book gave him the idea that Joffrey might not be Robert's son but Jaime's, and that coupled with the fact that it would explained how Bran fell out through the window was evidence enough for him to confront Cersei, who confirmed it. At least that works as a perfectly plausible explanation for me. THAT'S who he reminded me of... the whole execution scene and the way Robb said everything reminded me of the whole "This city must be purged" speech and Arthas dismissing Uther in WC3. Except I don't think Robb is going to come back stronger as the leader of the Undead.
Haha, wouldn't that be awesome. Robb dies and is made a wight by the White Walkers, and he somehow climbs their ranks and becomes their leader, and then the series turns into a war between an undead Robb Stark and Daenerys with her dragons.
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On May 01 2013 05:12 [UoN]Sentinel wrote:
Executing Karstark was the right decision though, the lord's soldiers wouldn't have fought effectively for Robb either way, and this way he still gets the respect from the rest of his troops for executing Karstark for treason.
Arresting and imprisoning Karstark would have guaranteed his family's cooperation and that the men would continue to fight for Robb. This was the worst decision he could possibly make. Once again for the Starks honor gets in the way of what is politically pragmatic and now he's lost half his army for it and most likely doomed his cause. He has to approach a man he has scorned because he "followed his heart," another noble quality.
Seems to me the Starks play the Game of Thrones like fools. Either be honorable and don't make a promise that you can't keep, or be ruthless and do whatever you want all the time and back it up with force. One inspires fear, another inspires love. With Dany we see love, with Lannister we see fear, and with Starks we see some hybrid of both that screws them.
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On May 01 2013 06:33 Craze wrote:Show nested quote +On May 01 2013 05:12 [UoN]Sentinel wrote:
Executing Karstark was the right decision though, the lord's soldiers wouldn't have fought effectively for Robb either way, and this way he still gets the respect from the rest of his troops for executing Karstark for treason. Arresting and imprisoning Karstark would have guaranteed his family's cooperation and that the men would continue to fight for Robb. This was the worst decision he could possibly make. Once again for the Starks honor gets in the way of what is politically pragmatic and now he's lost half his army for it and most likely doomed his cause. He has to approach a man he has scorned because he "followed his heart," another noble quality. Seems to me the Starks play the Game of Thrones like fools. Either be honorable and don't make a promise that you can't keep, or be ruthless and do whatever you want all the time and back it up with force. One inspires fear, another inspires love. With Dany we see love, with Lannister we see fear, and with Starks we see some hybrid of both that screws them.
Except Robb's men won't fight as hard because they'll realize Robb is a pussy who won't put down the fist of justice, and Karstark's men won't fight as hard because their lord is in jail and they'll be wondering if they should all go against Robb, the weak king, and put Karstark up in charge instead. He's got half his army but the half that's left has morale. Add in Lord Bolton's forces, the Riverrun forces (are there any still garrisoned there?) and anything at all that he can get from Frey.
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On May 01 2013 06:53 [UoN]Sentinel wrote:Show nested quote +On May 01 2013 06:33 Craze wrote:On May 01 2013 05:12 [UoN]Sentinel wrote:
Executing Karstark was the right decision though, the lord's soldiers wouldn't have fought effectively for Robb either way, and this way he still gets the respect from the rest of his troops for executing Karstark for treason. Arresting and imprisoning Karstark would have guaranteed his family's cooperation and that the men would continue to fight for Robb. This was the worst decision he could possibly make. Once again for the Starks honor gets in the way of what is politically pragmatic and now he's lost half his army for it and most likely doomed his cause. He has to approach a man he has scorned because he "followed his heart," another noble quality. Seems to me the Starks play the Game of Thrones like fools. Either be honorable and don't make a promise that you can't keep, or be ruthless and do whatever you want all the time and back it up with force. One inspires fear, another inspires love. With Dany we see love, with Lannister we see fear, and with Starks we see some hybrid of both that screws them. Except Robb's men won't fight as hard because they'll realize Robb is a pussy who won't put down the fist of justice, and Karstark's men won't fight as hard because their lord is in jail and they'll be wondering if they should all go against Robb, the weak king, and put Karstark up in charge instead. He's got half his army but the half that's left has morale. Add in Lord Bolton's forces, the Riverrun forces (are there any still garrisoned there?) and anything at all that he can get from Frey.
Yup, Robb is just in a fucked position either way, and he chose the honorable route which is why hes a boss
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Wildlings- much closer to 10k, I believe. With next to no armory except the raided material & Giants. Well, plus the inexpressive face of Jon Snow.
Dany - Don't think they have clear advantage, yet. The Unsullied are unproven, untrained in Westerosi-combat, light-armed and the Dragons are hardly hitting puberty.
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On May 01 2013 07:08 Aegon I wrote:
Wildlings- much closer to 10k, I believe. With next to no armory except the raided material & Giants. Well, plus the inexpressive face of Jon Snow.
Dany - Don't think they have clear advantage, yet. The Unsullied are unproven, untrained in Westerosi-combat, light-armed and the Dragons are hardly hitting puberty.
Say whatever you want about the Unsullied, but if they are anything it is proven. They are trained from young boys to be the perfect soldier and no nothing else. Experience in real battle isn't a factor when morale isn't a factor.
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United States7483 Posts
On May 01 2013 07:23 ZasZ. wrote:Show nested quote +On May 01 2013 07:08 Aegon I wrote:
Wildlings- much closer to 10k, I believe. With next to no armory except the raided material & Giants. Well, plus the inexpressive face of Jon Snow.
Dany - Don't think they have clear advantage, yet. The Unsullied are unproven, untrained in Westerosi-combat, light-armed and the Dragons are hardly hitting puberty. Say whatever you want about the Unsullied, but if they are anything it is proven. They are trained from young boys to be the perfect soldier and no nothing else. Experience in real battle isn't a factor when morale isn't a factor.
Well, the real issue is how they will stack up against armored Westerosi knights and soldiers. The unsullied don't wear heavy armor and wield spears, they're basically well trained infantrymen. That will do well against untrained soldiers, but probably not so well against the knights in full plate armor.
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On May 01 2013 07:27 Whitewing wrote:Show nested quote +On May 01 2013 07:23 ZasZ. wrote:On May 01 2013 07:08 Aegon I wrote:
Wildlings- much closer to 10k, I believe. With next to no armory except the raided material & Giants. Well, plus the inexpressive face of Jon Snow.
Dany - Don't think they have clear advantage, yet. The Unsullied are unproven, untrained in Westerosi-combat, light-armed and the Dragons are hardly hitting puberty. Say whatever you want about the Unsullied, but if they are anything it is proven. They are trained from young boys to be the perfect soldier and no nothing else. Experience in real battle isn't a factor when morale isn't a factor. Well, the real issue is how they will stack up against armored Westerosi knights and soldiers. The unsullied don't wear heavy armor and wield spears, they're basically well trained infantrymen. That will do well against untrained soldiers, but probably not so well against the knights in full plate armor.
Don't overestimate Westerosi armies. Most of them consist of untrained farmers with shovels or similar people.
If even the tenth part of an army consists of trained men, you can consider this army very well equipped.
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how are they going to deal with archers? i suppose unsullied are going to be mainly defense while dragons do all the roasting. either way, daneys is a far way away from westeros. and is going to take a few seasons to cross. ships, more men, bigger dragons, but again, its Game of Thrones, she might be dead next episode
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On May 01 2013 07:40 albis wrote:
how are they going to deal with archers? i suppose unsullied are going to be mainly defense while dragons do all the roasting. either way, daneys is a far way away from westeros. and is going to take a few seasons to cross. ships, more men, bigger dragons, but again, its Game of Thrones, she might be dead next episode
The perfect solution would be Dothraki screamers, but she would have to do a lot of work to regain that particular force, and likely wouldn't be able to do it until her dragons are much bigger than they are now.
But an army with Unsullied as the core, Dothraki on the flanks, and dragons overhead would be fearsome indeed.
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United States7483 Posts
On May 01 2013 07:32 TigerKarl wrote:Show nested quote +On May 01 2013 07:27 Whitewing wrote:On May 01 2013 07:23 ZasZ. wrote:On May 01 2013 07:08 Aegon I wrote:
Wildlings- much closer to 10k, I believe. With next to no armory except the raided material & Giants. Well, plus the inexpressive face of Jon Snow.
Dany - Don't think they have clear advantage, yet. The Unsullied are unproven, untrained in Westerosi-combat, light-armed and the Dragons are hardly hitting puberty. Say whatever you want about the Unsullied, but if they are anything it is proven. They are trained from young boys to be the perfect soldier and no nothing else. Experience in real battle isn't a factor when morale isn't a factor. Well, the real issue is how they will stack up against armored Westerosi knights and soldiers. The unsullied don't wear heavy armor and wield spears, they're basically well trained infantrymen. That will do well against untrained soldiers, but probably not so well against the knights in full plate armor. Don't overestimate Westerosi armies. Most of them consist of untrained farmers with shovels or similar people. If even the tenth part of an army consists of trained men, you can consider this army very well equipped.
Ehhh, they're not a siege army. Excellent fighters, disciplined and skilled, but good luck against a castle. Dany is going to have to wait for her dragons and protect them very carefully, it's the only way her forces will ever touch King's Landing.
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On May 01 2013 07:27 Whitewing wrote:Show nested quote +On May 01 2013 07:23 ZasZ. wrote:On May 01 2013 07:08 Aegon I wrote:
Wildlings- much closer to 10k, I believe. With next to no armory except the raided material & Giants. Well, plus the inexpressive face of Jon Snow.
Dany - Don't think they have clear advantage, yet. The Unsullied are unproven, untrained in Westerosi-combat, light-armed and the Dragons are hardly hitting puberty. Say whatever you want about the Unsullied, but if they are anything it is proven. They are trained from young boys to be the perfect soldier and no nothing else. Experience in real battle isn't a factor when morale isn't a factor. Well, the real issue is how they will stack up against armored Westerosi knights and soldiers. The unsullied don't wear heavy armor and wield spears, they're basically well trained infantrymen. That will do well against untrained soldiers, but probably not so well against the knights in full plate armor.
Huh? The Unsullied actually mostly use spears as their primary weapons, from what I saw in the scene where Daenarys optained them.
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On May 01 2013 08:20 MrMercuG wrote:Show nested quote +On May 01 2013 07:27 Whitewing wrote:On May 01 2013 07:23 ZasZ. wrote:On May 01 2013 07:08 Aegon I wrote:
Wildlings- much closer to 10k, I believe. With next to no armory except the raided material & Giants. Well, plus the inexpressive face of Jon Snow.
Dany - Don't think they have clear advantage, yet. The Unsullied are unproven, untrained in Westerosi-combat, light-armed and the Dragons are hardly hitting puberty. Say whatever you want about the Unsullied, but if they are anything it is proven. They are trained from young boys to be the perfect soldier and no nothing else. Experience in real battle isn't a factor when morale isn't a factor. Well, the real issue is how they will stack up against armored Westerosi knights and soldiers. The unsullied don't wear heavy armor and wield spears, they're basically well trained infantrymen. That will do well against untrained soldiers, but probably not so well against the knights in full plate armor. Huh? The Unsullied actually mostly use spears as their primary weapons, from what I saw in the scene where Daenarys optained them.
Yes, thats what he said. Now i figure spears are pretty bad in a 1on1 close combat against a heavy armored knight with a sword.
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On May 01 2013 08:36 Warri wrote:Show nested quote +On May 01 2013 08:20 MrMercuG wrote:On May 01 2013 07:27 Whitewing wrote:On May 01 2013 07:23 ZasZ. wrote:On May 01 2013 07:08 Aegon I wrote:
Wildlings- much closer to 10k, I believe. With next to no armory except the raided material & Giants. Well, plus the inexpressive face of Jon Snow.
Dany - Don't think they have clear advantage, yet. The Unsullied are unproven, untrained in Westerosi-combat, light-armed and the Dragons are hardly hitting puberty. Say whatever you want about the Unsullied, but if they are anything it is proven. They are trained from young boys to be the perfect soldier and no nothing else. Experience in real battle isn't a factor when morale isn't a factor. Well, the real issue is how they will stack up against armored Westerosi knights and soldiers. The unsullied don't wear heavy armor and wield spears, they're basically well trained infantrymen. That will do well against untrained soldiers, but probably not so well against the knights in full plate armor. Huh? The Unsullied actually mostly use spears as their primary weapons, from what I saw in the scene where Daenarys optained them. Yes, thats what he said. Now i figure spears are pretty bad in a 1on1 close combat against a heavy armored knight with a sword.
Knight sits on horse. Poke horse, Knight falls, Knight cant get up cause hes wearing full plate. Kill knight.
No i would say they are decently effective against knights.
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On May 01 2013 08:40 Gorsameth wrote:Show nested quote +On May 01 2013 08:36 Warri wrote:On May 01 2013 08:20 MrMercuG wrote:On May 01 2013 07:27 Whitewing wrote:On May 01 2013 07:23 ZasZ. wrote:On May 01 2013 07:08 Aegon I wrote:
Wildlings- much closer to 10k, I believe. With next to no armory except the raided material & Giants. Well, plus the inexpressive face of Jon Snow.
Dany - Don't think they have clear advantage, yet. The Unsullied are unproven, untrained in Westerosi-combat, light-armed and the Dragons are hardly hitting puberty. Say whatever you want about the Unsullied, but if they are anything it is proven. They are trained from young boys to be the perfect soldier and no nothing else. Experience in real battle isn't a factor when morale isn't a factor. Well, the real issue is how they will stack up against armored Westerosi knights and soldiers. The unsullied don't wear heavy armor and wield spears, they're basically well trained infantrymen. That will do well against untrained soldiers, but probably not so well against the knights in full plate armor. Huh? The Unsullied actually mostly use spears as their primary weapons, from what I saw in the scene where Daenarys optained them. Yes, thats what he said. Now i figure spears are pretty bad in a 1on1 close combat against a heavy armored knight with a sword. Knight sits on horse. Poke horse, Knight falls, Knight cant get up cause hes wearing full plate. Kill knight. No i would say they are decently effective against knights.
Ok, i meant knights without horses...soldiers?
Edit: I played enough age of empires to know that spears are very effective against horses, haha.
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On May 01 2013 08:19 Whitewing wrote:Show nested quote +On May 01 2013 07:32 TigerKarl wrote:On May 01 2013 07:27 Whitewing wrote:On May 01 2013 07:23 ZasZ. wrote:On May 01 2013 07:08 Aegon I wrote:
Wildlings- much closer to 10k, I believe. With next to no armory except the raided material & Giants. Well, plus the inexpressive face of Jon Snow.
Dany - Don't think they have clear advantage, yet. The Unsullied are unproven, untrained in Westerosi-combat, light-armed and the Dragons are hardly hitting puberty. Say whatever you want about the Unsullied, but if they are anything it is proven. They are trained from young boys to be the perfect soldier and no nothing else. Experience in real battle isn't a factor when morale isn't a factor. Well, the real issue is how they will stack up against armored Westerosi knights and soldiers. The unsullied don't wear heavy armor and wield spears, they're basically well trained infantrymen. That will do well against untrained soldiers, but probably not so well against the knights in full plate armor. Don't overestimate Westerosi armies. Most of them consist of untrained farmers with shovels or similar people. If even the tenth part of an army consists of trained men, you can consider this army very well equipped. Ehhh, they're not a siege army. Excellent fighters, disciplined and skilled, but good luck against a castle. Dany is going to have to wait for her dragons and protect them very carefully, it's the only way her forces will ever touch King's Landing.
They can go all Mongolian and capture siege engineers/people who know the fortifications of the armies then have all the knowledge they need.
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On May 01 2013 08:36 Warri wrote:Show nested quote +On May 01 2013 08:20 MrMercuG wrote:On May 01 2013 07:27 Whitewing wrote:On May 01 2013 07:23 ZasZ. wrote:On May 01 2013 07:08 Aegon I wrote:
Wildlings- much closer to 10k, I believe. With next to no armory except the raided material & Giants. Well, plus the inexpressive face of Jon Snow.
Dany - Don't think they have clear advantage, yet. The Unsullied are unproven, untrained in Westerosi-combat, light-armed and the Dragons are hardly hitting puberty. Say whatever you want about the Unsullied, but if they are anything it is proven. They are trained from young boys to be the perfect soldier and no nothing else. Experience in real battle isn't a factor when morale isn't a factor. Well, the real issue is how they will stack up against armored Westerosi knights and soldiers. The unsullied don't wear heavy armor and wield spears, they're basically well trained infantrymen. That will do well against untrained soldiers, but probably not so well against the knights in full plate armor. Huh? The Unsullied actually mostly use spears as their primary weapons, from what I saw in the scene where Daenarys optained them. Yes, thats what he said. Now i figure spears are pretty bad in a 1on1 close combat against a heavy armored knight with a sword.
Didn't they say in the opening episode that they were trained first with the sword, then spear and also bow? The reason their outfit is abit minimalistic might have much more practical reasons, like budget expenses from HBO. Its in situations like this we might be overthinking it abit strategy wise, altho thats part of the fun.
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I think the biggest issue with the Unsullied is how hot of an environment they're used to. Sure, they can STAND the cold (because of training), but they naturally won't be able to fight as effective as those who have lived in it their whole lives. At this rate Dany will probably hit Westeros as the winter comes, giving her army a severe disadvantage compared to those native of the land (IMO).
In the end, she'll probably just become another player in the game of thrones, not a powerhouse that can stomp all the lands into submission like her ancestors. That being said there's no telling how many people will accept her anyway, given how the last king of her kin was.
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