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All book discussion in this thread is now allowed. |
On April 30 2013 03:57 FREEloss_ca wrote:Show nested quote +On April 30 2013 03:54 karazax wrote:On April 30 2013 03:50 FREEloss_ca wrote:
As already said, the Starks are moral absolutists, and will do what honorable thing is to do, even if it has negative fallout for them; case in point, the demise of Ned Stark. Except that if Robb really was a moral absolutist he would have kept his vow to the Freys despite his personal desires to marry some one else. Yeah, Ned Stark was a moral absolutist, but he ended up having a bastard son (Jon Snow). I guess they're hypocritical moral absolutists? Robb is following in the foot steps of Ned pretty closely (his marriage being analogous to Ned's infidelity), I'm sure his end will be much the same.
The lesson learned is that men can be 'moral absolutists' EXCEPT when it comes to women 
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On April 30 2013 04:12 serum321 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 30 2013 03:42 Sub40APM wrote:
Loyalty seems like such a weird thing in Game of Thrones. Why would Kastark men stay loyal to their Lord if that Lord betrayed their other Lord? Youd think they'd be relieved that they were no longer commanded by a mentally unstable man. But like others said, the fact that Robb screws over a key ally for a random field medic makes all his grand standing about honor hilarious hypocritical. Not to mention his weird decision to just keep marching around down South. Go home Robb, if your men disperse then so what? The South cant invade the North, especially not in the Middle of Winter. So you already won. "Winning" would be taking Joffrey's head for taking Ned's head, it was never about becoming king and/or gaining some form of independence. Robb even says something to the effect that the war used to have purpose and now they're all just floundering around.
he started the war to free his dad. once his dad was dead, his lords declared him King in the North and he took that crown. So he effectively is fighting for independence. And in fact he is effectively independent. Which is why the war part of the show is confusing right now -- there is literally no reason for the Starks not to just sit back and defend and win every battle (because the show has made it clear that Robb can defeated any combination of Lannister troops thrown at him). Well, there is one reason, the writer of the book needs to keep up with his "this is serious work because all the good guys get screwed over" theme and so Robb has to be the one that looks like he is stuck in a morass instead of the Lannisters (how is Joffrey relevant to any of the Kingdoms? Literally everyone has either declared independence or war on the king or is neutral, which is like independence!)
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On April 30 2013 04:14 GGTeMpLaR wrote:Show nested quote +On April 30 2013 04:10 Zane wrote:
Jaime is right. Ned wouldn't have listened. He didn't listen to the story of the deserter who saw the White Walkers, he just executed him. Dealing in absolutes makes Starks terrible rulers. Ned Stark was a terrible ruler? He was beloved by all his vassals and ran the North perfectly fine. Ned was portrayed as one of the best rulers in the show so far (maybe you could argue Tywin or Tyrion is "better", but that's up for debate).
I'd say the Starks are good rulers as long as they are completely in charge, but terrible politicians.
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Tywin is getting more bad-ass every episode so far.
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On April 30 2013 04:21 c0ldfusion wrote:Show nested quote +On April 30 2013 04:16 Necro)Phagist( wrote:On April 30 2013 04:10 Zane wrote:
Jaime is right. Ned wouldn't have listened. He didn't listen to the story of the deserter who saw the White Walkers, he just executed him. Dealing in absolutes makes Starks terrible rulers. Well to be fair, no Lord would have listened and believed the story of the white walkers. No one in the kingdoms except the men at the wall know they are real. Up until this point White walkers are just some story monsters from thousands of years ago. If Jaime had told Ned, he might not have believed him at first but I'm fairly certain honourably Ned Stark would have taken the time to investigate and maybe look for the caches of wild fire the mad king had hidden around etc. But of course that is just my guess on how it would have played out had Jaime told him. I agree, that really bothered me as well. It's easy to prove Jaime's side of the story. The only justification is that maybe his pride got in the way. Jaime didn't care for the opinions of others so didn't feel the need to offer up an explanation.
Yeah this is just like the old Jaime was. Like his sister said, didnt fear anything, didnt care about anything. Now he learns that there are indeed things to fear.
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Ok two questions.
1. Did they change the actor for the smith boy (Roberts bastard?). Maybe it was just the lighting but I thought he didn't quite look the same.....
2. The duel between Belric and The Hound sure was swell, but was I the only one that thought the whole, "omg omg Belric died, lolollol JK he's just fine!!!" thing wasn't as smooth as it could have been? ^___ ^
Also, Tywin.... y so hardcore?
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On April 30 2013 04:27 Coal wrote:
Ok two questions.
1. Did they change the actor for the smith boy (Roberts bastard?). Maybe it was just the lighting but I thought he didn't quite look the same.....
2. The duel between Belric and The Hound sure was swell, but was I the only one that thought the whole, "omg omg Belric died, lolollol JK he's just fine!!!" thing wasn't as smooth as it could have been? ^___ ^
Nope same actor. Had a little bit of facial hair now.
And agreed to the second one. The resurrection was not really well done.
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On April 30 2013 04:27 Coal wrote:
Ok two questions.
1. Did they change the actor for the smith boy (Roberts bastard?). Maybe it was just the lighting but I thought he didn't quite look the same.....
2. The duel between Belric and The Hound sure was swell, but was I the only one that thought the whole, "omg omg Belric died, lolollol JK he's just fine!!!" thing wasn't as smooth as it could have been? ^___ ^
Also, Tywin.... y so hardcore?
they gave him a mustache.
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On April 30 2013 04:25 karazax wrote:Show nested quote +On April 30 2013 04:14 GGTeMpLaR wrote:On April 30 2013 04:10 Zane wrote:
Jaime is right. Ned wouldn't have listened. He didn't listen to the story of the deserter who saw the White Walkers, he just executed him. Dealing in absolutes makes Starks terrible rulers. Ned Stark was a terrible ruler? He was beloved by all his vassals and ran the North perfectly fine. Ned was portrayed as one of the best rulers in the show so far (maybe you could argue Tywin or Tyrion is "better", but that's up for debate). I'd say the Starks are good rulers as long as they are completely in charge, but terrible politicians.
"bad" at the Game of Thrones =p
That's the nature of the game though. You can't be honorable/honest and still be good at the Game of Thrones because the very nature of the Game necessitates deception and the use of shady tactics.
Playing the Game of Thrones is completely different from being a ruler though.
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Not sure what we are supposed to think, but jon snow saying 1,000 men at castle black seems like a huge exaggeration?
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I get the feeling that Jamie Lannister is going to somehow reacquire his lost hand before he finally dies. Maybe through some magic of the fire god.
On April 30 2013 04:29 Aegon I wrote:
Not sure what we are supposed to think, but jon snow saying 1,000 men at castle black seems like a huge exaggeration?
I'm pretty sure that's a lie. It's hard to say, but the men of the nights watch don't seem to have strength in numbers.
On April 30 2013 04:27 Redox wrote:Show nested quote +On April 30 2013 04:21 c0ldfusion wrote:On April 30 2013 04:16 Necro)Phagist( wrote:On April 30 2013 04:10 Zane wrote:
Jaime is right. Ned wouldn't have listened. He didn't listen to the story of the deserter who saw the White Walkers, he just executed him. Dealing in absolutes makes Starks terrible rulers. Well to be fair, no Lord would have listened and believed the story of the white walkers. No one in the kingdoms except the men at the wall know they are real. Up until this point White walkers are just some story monsters from thousands of years ago. If Jaime had told Ned, he might not have believed him at first but I'm fairly certain honourably Ned Stark would have taken the time to investigate and maybe look for the caches of wild fire the mad king had hidden around etc. But of course that is just my guess on how it would have played out had Jaime told him. I agree, that really bothered me as well. It's easy to prove Jaime's side of the story. The only justification is that maybe his pride got in the way. Jaime didn't care for the opinions of others so didn't feel the need to offer up an explanation. Yeah this is just like the old Jaime was. Like his sister said, didnt fear anything, didnt care about anything. Now he learns that there are indeed things to fear.
Let's not forget that Jamie is a lying, manipulative man, and he's good at it. He did push a little boy out of a window hoping to kill him, yeah? Have to take every single thing he says with a grain of salt, especially when he's trying to win over the woman sworn to protect him.
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HOLY SHIT I JUST REALIZED
+ Show Spoiler [my prediction] +- Stannis has three stillborn children
- Mrs. Stannis keeps them in jars
- Fetuses have Stannis blood in them
- Melisandre is going to get more king's blood for rituals
- Melisandre talked to Mrs. Stannis beforehand
- Mrs. Stannis feels as if she has failed because she had three dead children
- Suddenly children are useful and Mrs. Stannis isn't so sad anymore
MELISANDRE IS GOING TO SACRIFICE THE FETUSES TO THE LORD OF LIGHT ISN'T SHE
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Its starting to seem like all these religions are really magic.
Wildlings follow the same religion as the Northern men and they have that same animal ability.
The fire religion has all that stuff we've been seeing lately
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A little off topic but was it actually made clear what happened to Benjen Stark or is he just "lost" somewhere north of the wall and presumed dead (which in GoT means that he is most likely not dead) ?
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On April 30 2013 04:36 nitram wrote:
Its starting to seem like all these religions are really magic.
Wildlings follow the same religion as the Northern men and they have that same animal ability.
The fire religion has all that stuff we've been seeing lately
Well, look at the stark boy. He has that ability also. I think it's just magic being treated as religion as people tend to treat things they don't understand. Oh shit his blood caused his sword to catch fire? Never mind an explanation - IT'S GOD
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On April 30 2013 04:36 nitram wrote:
Its starting to seem like all these religions are really magic.
Wildlings follow the same religion as the Northern men and they have that same animal ability.
The fire religion has all that stuff we've been seeing lately
The Seven and The Drowned God have to pick up the slack if they want to remain competitive. So far we've only seen words from them.
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On April 30 2013 04:33 Marimokkori wrote:I get the feeling that Jamie Lannister is going to somehow reacquire his lost hand before he finally dies. Maybe through some magic of the fire god. Show nested quote +On April 30 2013 04:29 Aegon I wrote:
Not sure what we are supposed to think, but jon snow saying 1,000 men at castle black seems like a huge exaggeration?
I'm pretty sure that's a lie. It's hard to say, but the men of the nights watch don't seem to have strength in numbers. Show nested quote +On April 30 2013 04:27 Redox wrote:On April 30 2013 04:21 c0ldfusion wrote:On April 30 2013 04:16 Necro)Phagist( wrote:On April 30 2013 04:10 Zane wrote:
Jaime is right. Ned wouldn't have listened. He didn't listen to the story of the deserter who saw the White Walkers, he just executed him. Dealing in absolutes makes Starks terrible rulers. Well to be fair, no Lord would have listened and believed the story of the white walkers. No one in the kingdoms except the men at the wall know they are real. Up until this point White walkers are just some story monsters from thousands of years ago. If Jaime had told Ned, he might not have believed him at first but I'm fairly certain honourably Ned Stark would have taken the time to investigate and maybe look for the caches of wild fire the mad king had hidden around etc. But of course that is just my guess on how it would have played out had Jaime told him. I agree, that really bothered me as well. It's easy to prove Jaime's side of the story. The only justification is that maybe his pride got in the way. Jaime didn't care for the opinions of others so didn't feel the need to offer up an explanation. Yeah this is just like the old Jaime was. Like his sister said, didnt fear anything, didnt care about anything. Now he learns that there are indeed things to fear. Let's not forget that Jamie is a lying, manipulative man, and he's good at it. He did push a little boy out of a window hoping to kill him, yeah? Have to take every single thing he says with a grain of salt, especially when he's trying to win over the woman sworn to protect him.
I would not call him manipulative. I think he is very straight forward and at times painfully honest. The way he dealt with Bran was also the more straight forward approach, instead of trying to pass the boy off as a lier etc.
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On April 30 2013 04:28 GGTeMpLaR wrote:Show nested quote +On April 30 2013 04:25 karazax wrote:On April 30 2013 04:14 GGTeMpLaR wrote:On April 30 2013 04:10 Zane wrote:
Jaime is right. Ned wouldn't have listened. He didn't listen to the story of the deserter who saw the White Walkers, he just executed him. Dealing in absolutes makes Starks terrible rulers. Ned Stark was a terrible ruler? He was beloved by all his vassals and ran the North perfectly fine. Ned was portrayed as one of the best rulers in the show so far (maybe you could argue Tywin or Tyrion is "better", but that's up for debate). I'd say the Starks are good rulers as long as they are completely in charge, but terrible politicians. "bad" at the Game of Thrones =p That's the nature of the game though. You can't be honorable/honest and still be good at the Game of Thrones because the very nature of the Game necessitates deception and the use of shady tactics. Playing the Game of Thrones is completely different from being a ruler though.
like someone else said, they just have bad luck and the lannisters have good luck. in other words, the author went out of his way to clown the Starks.
Look at all these ways:
What were the odds that a boar would kill a drunken Robert, what if they didnt find a boar before Robert passed out from being drunk, came home, and Ned reports to him about the Lanisters? Thats it, gg house lanister.
What are the odds that Robb's mom didnt bring Robb's wife from House Frey with them on campaign to make sure her horny 16 year old didnt do something retarded like marry a nobody from nowhere and thus fundamentally weaken House Stark?
What if Bran Stark was warned about a random band of Ironman marching all the way from the ocean to his castle (look at the map, there is nowhere for the Ironborn to park their boat, so they hiked for days just to get to Winterfell. And no one in the North warned Bran about it??!)
What if the men that Bran sent to fight the Northmen away from the Castle didnt stupidly surrender (there were still a couple hundred of them!) but scaled the same walls and captured the castle that was lightly guarded by pirates who have no idea where the secret passages are?
What if the Tyrells listend to their wise grandma, sat back in high garden and let the Baratheons slaughter the Lannisters and then do whatever they want since they would be the richest kingdom and also the only one with lots of food for the Winter?
What if the Tully women werent all retarded and the Vale joined the Starks and Riverun, now its 4 kingdoms against Lannister + whatever Joff had around kings landing for the opening stages of the war and the Tyrells no matter how greedy all of the sudden still decide to sit it out?
What if Tyrion wasnt a genius defensive general and simple decided to take his money and run, Tywin would arrive to a sacked kings' landing for sure.
What if the greatest sell sword didnt randomly stay at the hotel were Tyrion is being held, doenst go to the vale and doesnt fight for Tyrion so Tyrion gets thrown out of the mooncell/killed in a fight and therefore the Value *has* to join House Stark/River Run in the war and again its 4 kingdoms against Lannister + whatever is around King's Landing.
There are literally a million ways in which the Stark alliance wins, and only the one way, the way the tv show showed, that the Lannisters had a chance. Because, again, otherwise the story is over and the writer doesnt get to pretend he is 'serious' because good guys always die and badguys can recover from any kind of mishap.
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What do the the Starks say when winter is actually here?
It's been bugging me
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On April 30 2013 04:24 Sub40APM wrote:Show nested quote +On April 30 2013 04:12 serum321 wrote:On April 30 2013 03:42 Sub40APM wrote:
Loyalty seems like such a weird thing in Game of Thrones. Why would Kastark men stay loyal to their Lord if that Lord betrayed their other Lord? Youd think they'd be relieved that they were no longer commanded by a mentally unstable man. But like others said, the fact that Robb screws over a key ally for a random field medic makes all his grand standing about honor hilarious hypocritical. Not to mention his weird decision to just keep marching around down South. Go home Robb, if your men disperse then so what? The South cant invade the North, especially not in the Middle of Winter. So you already won. "Winning" would be taking Joffrey's head for taking Ned's head, it was never about becoming king and/or gaining some form of independence. Robb even says something to the effect that the war used to have purpose and now they're all just floundering around. he started the war to free his dad. once his dad was dead, his lords declared him King in the North and he took that crown. So he effectively is fighting for independence. And in fact he is effectively independent. Which is why the war part of the show is confusing right now -- there is literally no reason for the Starks not to just sit back and defend and win every battle (because the show has made it clear that Robb can defeated any combination of Lannister troops thrown at him). Well, there is one reason, the writer of the book needs to keep up with his "this is serious work because all the good guys get screwed over" theme and so Robb has to be the one that looks like he is stuck in a morass instead of the Lannisters (how is Joffrey relevant to any of the Kingdoms? Literally everyone has either declared independence or war on the king or is neutral, which is like independence!)
Reasons to keep fighting
1. The Lannisters have Sansa (And Robb thinks they have Arya)
2. Robb knows that Joffrey was born of incest between Jaime and Cersei and therefore is not the rightful King. Also if he retreats he will likely never get justice for his father's death.
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EPT
